Local Vs Foreign Coach Debate. Data and Statistics since 1980

[ahidjo2]

AFCON Records for Nigeria: Local Vs Foreign Coach
Year -----------Position--------------------Coach-------------*Points
1980 -------------1st------------------------Foreign---------------7
1982 -------Group stage Exit-------------Foreign---------------1
1984 -------------2nd-----------------------Local-----------------6
1986--Did not qualify(DNQ)--------------Local-----------------0
1988 -------------2nd-----------------------Foreign--------------6
1990 -------------2nd-----------------------Foreign--------------6
1992 -------------3rd-----------------------Foreign--------------5
1994 -------------1st-----------------------Foreign---------------7
1996 -----------No show--------------------NA------------------NA
1998 -----------No show--------------------NA------------------NA
2000 -------------2nd-----------------------Foreign-------------6
2002 -------------3rd-----------------------Local----------------5
2004 -------------3rd-----------------------Local----------------5
2006 -------------3rd-----------------------Local----------------5
2008 ------Quarter final------------------Foreign-------------3
2010 -------------3rd-----------------------Local---------------5
2012 ------------DNQ-----------------------Local---------------0
2013 ------------1st-------------------------Local--------------7
2015 ------------DNQ------------------------Local--------------0
2017 ------------DNQ------------------------Local--------------0
2019 ------------3rd-------------------------Foreign------------5
2021 ------Second round-------------------Local--------------1
2023 -----------2nd--------------------------Foreign-----------6

Position Points
1st ----------7
2nd ----------6
3rd ----------5
4th ---------4
Quarter final----3
Second round---2
Group exit------1
Did not qualify(DNQ)--0

-------------------------Local-------Foreign---
In charge--------------------11 times-----10 times
1st-----------------------------1-------------2
2nd----------------------------1------------4
3rd----------------------------4------------2
4th----------------------------0------------0
Quarter final----------------0------------1
Second Round Exit---------1------------0
Group exit------------------0------------1
Did not qualify for competition--4------0
Average performance points----3.09------5.2

Summary
• Local coaches have had more opportunities (11) than foreign coaches (10 times) since 1980.
• No foreign coach has ever failed to qualify for AFCON since 1980
• Out of the 10 times foreign coaches made it to AFCON, they have made it to at least the semis (3rd) 8 times (80%). Local is 55%
• The local coaches have failed to qualify Nigeria for AFCON 4 times (all 4 times we missed AFCON).
• A statistical analysis showed that the difference between the performance points is statistically Significant. Foreign coaches (M = 5.2) have significantly better performance than their local counterparts (M = 2.91).

[Agbako]

How far do you want us to push ya skull up the anus of a Foreign coach ? Because from all indications the smell from that region of theirs is more palatable to you. Simple knowledge that our Local Coaches are never given same leverage be it salary or resources to do their job just rubbish the above falls stats.

[ahidjo2]

How far do you want us to push ya skull up the anus of a Foreign coach ? Because from all indications the smell from that region of theirs is more palatable to you. Simple knowledge that our Local Coaches are never given same leverage be it salary or resources to do their job just rubbish the above falls stats.

You can give all the excuses you want sir but facts are sacred. Developed countries make use of science, data and statistics to guide their decisions but most Africans dwell on inanities, innuendos, emotions, superstition, and sentiments. You can conduct your own analysis to prove to us that this statistical facts are skewed. Anything other than that, at least to the statistically rational mind, is noise.

[ANC]

it does not bode well for local coaches.
But does this mean that you continue with foreign coaches in perpetuity?

[ahidjo2]

it does not bode well for local coaches.
But does this mean that you continue with foreign coaches in perpetuity?

We continue to use what gives us the best result. That's sensible

[1naija]

The other important information in this statistics is that since 2000, we've hired more local coaches than foreign coaches, which is contrary to the narrative often given here.

[Bell]

TIME TO USE WHAT "GIVES US THE BEST RESULTS"


Next offices to be considered: the presidency, chief of defense staff, legislative leaders, etc.
Bell

[Damunk]

TIME TO USE WHAT "GIVES US THE BEST RESULTS"

Next offices to be considered: the presidency, chief of defense staff, legislative leaders, etc.
Bell

Your ‘suggestion’ might be worth a thought, but I have my doubts.

But you have nothing to say (yet) on the statistics ahidjo2 has so kindly provided - which is actually what this thread is about.

[Damunk]

How far do you want us to push ya skull up the anus of a Foreign coach ? Because from all indications the smell from that region of theirs is more palatable to you. Simple knowledge that our Local Coaches are never given same leverage be it salary or resources to do their job just rubbish the above falls stats.

Uhm…the last two substantive local coaches were paid pretty much in the same pay bracket as the foreigners ($28-33k/month). And they didn’t have to pay their assistants from their own salaries.
So you are applying an old, outdated argument to current circumstances.

And yes, we agree that Finidi or Amuneke or whoever should be paid like any other foreign coach.
As long as you are okay with that, we are all good.

[aruako1]

The other important information in this statistics is that since 2000, we've hired more local coaches than foreign coaches, which is contrary to the narrative often given here.

To the contrary, the narrative is that more often than not, local coaches are hired under worse conditions. And a few times they see only hired as stop-gap interim coaches. Treat them equally and there will be no complaint from me.

[highbury]

I suggest a foreign President, Governor etc. Heck, our food is now foreign

[1naija]

This is very very dumb suggestion. Just say no!

I suggest a foreign President, Governor etc. Heck, our food is now foreign

[1naija]

It's not anybody's fault that some of them accepted to work in poor condition. Siasia stood his ground once and got $30k salary monthly. CCC on the other hand accepted $10k and started complaining about low pay.

The other important information in this statistics is that since 2000, we've hired more local coaches than foreign coaches, which is contrary to the narrative often given here.

To the contrary, the narrative is that more often than not, local coaches are hired under worse conditions. And a few times they see only hired as stop-gap interim coaches. Treat them equally and there will be no complaint from me.

[aruako1]

It's not anybody's fault that some of them accepted to work in poor condition. Siasia stood his ground once and got $30k salary monthly. CCC on the other hand accepted $10k and started complaining about low pay.

The other important information in this statistics is that since 2000, we've hired more local coaches than foreign coaches, which is contrary to the narrative often given here.

To the contrary, the narrative is that more often than not, local coaches are hired under worse conditions. And a few times they see only hired as stop-gap interim coaches. Treat them equally and there will be no complaint from me.

That is where we differ, perhaps fundamentally. You cannot blame people with lower bargaining power for accepting roles. And we know that being white comes with higher bargaining power in Nigeria. Even Siasia's 30k was still lower than what we paid our recent foreign coaches. And the difference in treatment goes beyond pay

[1naija]

It's not the responsibility of your employer to pay you what you think you are worth. You negotiate for it and if you don't like their offer, you walk away. You can't act desperate and be unprofessional about your job and expect to be taken seriously. The local coaches have to share some of the blame for some of the ways they have been treated in the past. They should never start the position without a solid contract in hand. And they should be ready to go all the way to FIFA if necessary if the contract is not honored. That's what the onyibo coaches do.

It's not anybody's fault that some of them accepted to work in poor condition. Siasia stood his ground once and got $30k salary monthly. CCC on the other hand accepted $10k and started complaining about low pay.

The other important information in this statistics is that since 2000, we've hired more local coaches than foreign coaches, which is contrary to the narrative often given here.

To the contrary, the narrative is that more often than not, local coaches are hired under worse conditions. And a few times they see only hired as stop-gap interim coaches. Treat them equally and there will be no complaint from me.

That is where we differ, perhaps fundamentally. You cannot blame people with lower bargaining power for accepting roles. And we know that being white comes with higher bargaining power in Nigeria. Even Siasia's 30k was still lower than what we paid our recent foreign coaches. And the difference in treatment goes beyond pay

[Orion]

I suggest a foreign President, Governor etc. Heck, our food is now foreign

When we hire foreigners to build our bridges, power plants, and refineries, where are the objections amongst people like you?

Shouldn't we also get a "foreign president" because foreign engineers are building bridges in Nigeria? Where are the complaints?

This is a question I have asked on CE for decades and never got a straight answer.

[Damunk]

It's not anybody's fault that some of them accepted to work in poor condition. Siasia stood his ground once and got $30k salary monthly. CCC on the other hand accepted $10k and started complaining about low pay.

The other important information in this statistics is that since 2000, we've hired more local coaches than foreign coaches, which is contrary to the narrative often given here.

To the contrary, the narrative is that more often than not, local coaches are hired under worse conditions. And a few times they see only hired as stop-gap interim coaches. Treat them equally and there will be no complaint from me.

That is where we differ, perhaps fundamentally. You cannot blame people with lower bargaining power for accepting roles. And we know that being white comes with higher bargaining power in Nigeria. Even Siasia's 30k was still lower than what we paid our recent foreign coaches. And the difference in treatment goes beyond pay

Chief, firstly there is no record suggesting any of our local coaches ever had to pay their assistants out of their own salaries - whether Siasia, Keshi or Oliseh. And def not Amodu. Pls correct me if I am wrong.
Secondly, let’s not make this a race to the bottom.
The foreign coaches were subjected to unbelievably unprofessional treatment by not having their salaries paid for months on end. How on earth can anyone in all honesty suggest such conditions are in any way ‘better’?

It might be the norm in our country, or we might well be so used to it that we don’t actually recognise it for what it really is.
But to non-Nigerians, those are atrocious employment conditions. Totally unacceptable.
There are no ‘better’ circumstances here. We easily forget that. In different ways all our SE coaches have been treated shabbily. And that’s just salary. What else have they had to do to keep the ship a-sail that we don’t even know?

Then Nigerians with our ever-ingenious rationalizations will come up with statements like “they must be desperate”, or “they must be corrupt” simply for sticking around, not complaining and getting on with the job.

[Agbako]

Since we lack good judgement in doing the right thing. Can we take a leaf from Senegal?
Longevity in Position so our Local Coach can develop a winning Formulae coupled with the right pay and necessary Supports.

Heck, if una give me that self with my little league coaching experience I might pull off a miracle with the talents we have. Trust me, we have a brand of beautiful football we have seen exhibited in the past. I will take us back there and start punishing teams.. I swear... ha ha ha ha haaaaa

[EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA]

How far do you want us to push ya skull up the anus of a Foreign coach ? Because from all indications the smell from that region of theirs is more palatable to you. Simple knowledge that our Local Coaches are never given same leverage be it salary or resources to do their job just rubbish the above falls stats.

You can give all the excuses you want sir but facts are sacred. Developed countries make use of science, data and statistics to guide their decisions but most Africans dwell on inanities, innuendos, emotions, superstition, and sentiments. You can conduct your own analysis to prove to us that this statistical facts are skewed. Anything other than that, at least to the statistically rational mind, is noise.

The facts are clear as 7up. Even when presented with empirical evidence they still try to controvert it with emotions and politics. What I see clearly in the numbers is that the best way to improve our performance at the Afcon is to get even better foreign coaches.

[Damunk]

Since we lack good judgement in doing the right thing. Can we take a leaf from Senegal?
Longevity in Position so our Local Coach can develop a winning Formulae coupled with the right pay and necessary Supports.

Heck, if una give me that self with my little league coaching experience I might pull off a miracle with the talents we have. Trust me, we have a brand of beautiful football we have seen exhibited in the past. I will take us back there and start punishing teams.. I swear... ha ha ha ha haaaaa

This is a brilliant idea.
The only problem is this is Nigeria. Not Senegal. Not Germany. Not Spain.

We sack coaches for fun, even with no back up plan.
And they don’t need to fail ‘spectacularly’ before we do it. And let’s not fool ourselves it’s all about the NFF. Nigerian fans were fully complicit in the hounding of Amodu out of office back in the day. Same with Keshi.
I was labelled a “Keshi House Boy’, so I should know.


So longevity is good, if only we were a society that plans for and tolerates the inevitable pitfalls that will come with it.

Don’t let’s pretend we do not know our people and where we come from.

Immediate gratification is in ur DNA.

[Damunk]

How far do you want us to push ya skull up the anus of a Foreign coach ? Because from all indications the smell from that region of theirs is more palatable to you. Simple knowledge that our Local Coaches are never given same leverage be it salary or resources to do their job just rubbish the above falls stats.

You can give all the excuses you want sir but facts are sacred. Developed countries make use of science, data and statistics to guide their decisions but most Africans dwell on inanities, innuendos, emotions, superstition, and sentiments. You can conduct your own analysis to prove to us that this statistical facts are skewed. Anything other than that, at least to the statistically rational mind, is noise.

The facts are clear as 7up. Even when presented with empirical evidence they still try to controvert it with emotions and politics. What I see clearly in the numbers is that the best way to improve our performance at the Afcon is to get even better foreign coaches.

There’s a loud silence in some quarters.
Do you hear it?

[aruako1]

It's not the responsibility of your employer to pay you what you think you are worth. You negotiate for it and if you don't like their offer, you walk away. You can't act desperate and be unprofessional about your job and expect to be taken seriously. The local coaches have to share some of the blame for some of the ways they have been treated in the past. They should never start the position without a solid contract in hand. And they should be ready to go all the way to FIFA if necessary if the contract is not honored. That's what the onyibo coaches do.

It's not anybody's fault that some of them accepted to work in poor condition. Siasia stood his ground once and got $30k salary monthly. CCC on the other hand accepted $10k and started complaining about low pay.

The other important information in this statistics is that since 2000, we've hired more local coaches than foreign coaches, which is contrary to the narrative often given here.

To the contrary, the narrative is that more often than not, local coaches are hired under worse conditions. And a few times they see only hired as stop-gap interim coaches. Treat them equally and there will be no complaint from me.

That is where we differ, perhaps fundamentally. You cannot blame people with lower bargaining power for accepting roles. And we know that being white comes with higher bargaining power in Nigeria. Even Siasia's 30k was still lower than what we paid our recent foreign coaches. And the difference in treatment goes beyond pay

It is the responsibility of the employer to offer pay equity, especially in a position of national interest where a particular class, in the case the locals, are disadvantaged in bargaining power. You can dip your head in the sand and pretend that being foreign, especially white, does not give an automatic pay premium in Nigeria, irrespective of ability. Ask any Nigerian worker in a multinational or even local companies. It is a system problem and has nothing to do with desperation.

[BAP]

AFCON Records for Nigeria: Local Vs Foreign Coach
Year -----------Position--------------------Coach-------------*Points
1980 -------------1st------------------------Foreign---------------7
1982 -------Group stage Exit-------------Foreign---------------1
1984 -------------2nd-----------------------Local-----------------6
1986--Did not qualify(DNQ)--------------Local-----------------0
1988 -------------2nd-----------------------Foreign--------------6
1990 -------------2nd-----------------------Foreign--------------6
1992 -------------3rd-----------------------Foreign--------------5
1994 -------------1st-----------------------Foreign---------------7
1996 -----------No show--------------------NA------------------NA
1998 -----------No show--------------------NA------------------NA
2000 -------------2nd-----------------------Foreign-------------6
2002 -------------3rd-----------------------Local----------------5
2004 -------------3rd-----------------------Local----------------5
2006 -------------3rd-----------------------Local----------------5
2008 ------Quarter final------------------Foreign-------------3
2010 -------------3rd-----------------------Local---------------3
2012 ------------DNQ-----------------------Local---------------0
2013 ------------1st-------------------------Local--------------7
2015 ------------DNQ------------------------Local--------------0
2017 ------------DNQ------------------------Local--------------0
2019 ------------3rd-------------------------Foreign------------5
2021 ------Second round-------------------Local--------------1
2023 -----------2nd--------------------------Foreign-----------6

Position Points
1st ----------7
2nd ----------6
3rd ----------5
4th ---------4
Quarter final----3
Second round---2
Group exit------1
Did not qualify(DNQ)--0

-------------------------Local-------Foreign---
In charge--------------------11 times-----10 times
1st-----------------------------1-------------2
2nd----------------------------1------------4
3rd----------------------------4------------2
4th----------------------------0------------0
Quarter final----------------0------------1
Second Round Exit---------1------------0
Group exit------------------0------------1
Did not qualify for competition--4------0
Average performance points----2.91------5.2

Summary
• Local coaches have had more opportunities (11) than foreign coaches (10 times) since 1980.
• No foreign coach has ever failed to qualify for AFCON since 1980
• Out of the 10 times foreign coaches made it to AFCON, they have made it to at least the semis (3rd) 8 times (80%). Local is 55%
• The local coaches have failed to qualify Nigeria for AFCON 4 times (all 4 times we missed AFCON).
• A statistical analysis showed that the difference between the performance points is statistically Significant. Foreign coaches (M = 5.2) have significantly better performance than their local counterparts (M = 2.91).

Chief , Interesting stats but cherry picked nonetheless

For starters how convenient to start in 1980 but ignore the 70s , 60's and 50's where we mostly had foreign coaches but didnt win Jack ? Put thise in your weighting model and see how fast the Oyinbos summary ratings would drop

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... m_managers

Finch (1949)Adegoke (1950–52)Anyiam (1954–56)Courtier (1956–60)Beit haLavi (1960–61)Vardar (1961–63)Penna (1963–64)Anyiam (1964–65)Ember (1965–68)Barinaga (1968–69)Amaechina (1969–70)Marotzke (1970–72)Penna (1972–73)Marotzke (1973–74)Jelisavčić (1974–78)Glória (1978–81)Göller (1981)Onigbinde (1981–84)Udemezue (1984–86)Ekeji (1986)Höner (1987–88)Hamilton (1989)Westerhof (1989–94)Amodu (1994–95)Bonfrère (1995–96)Amodu (1996–97)Troussier (1997)Sinclair (1997)Milutinović (1997–98)Libregts (1998–99)Bonfrère (1999–2001)Amodu (2001–02)Onigbinde (2002)Chukwu (2002–05)Eguavoen (2005–07)Vogts (2007–08)Peters (2008)Amodu (2008–10)Lagerbäck (2010)Eguavoen (2010)Siasia (2010–11)Keshi (2011–14)Amodu (2014)Amokachi (2014–15)Keshi (2015)Oliseh (2015–16)Siasia (2016)Yusuf (2016)Rohr (2016–21)Eguavoen (2021–22)Peseiro (2022–24)

Also why ignore the fact that the oyinbo coaches who actualy won had 3 and 5 years respectively to get things done in order to win while the sole local coach who won it all had only about a year to get it right ?

See wen you are truly doing stats rather than genarating sensational headlines you have to give weightings to things like length of service ? did they actually build the team or were they drafted in last minute ? etc

If you look at the oyinbos like Lagerbeck or Vogts or even Bora Milutinović who had relatively short stints with the team they by and large had abysmal records

So my friend no offence but what you have presented here are not stats .. its just simplistic campaign fodder for the ignorant, uninformed and the uninitiated