The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

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Post by Mbape »

abakwa wrote:Mbappe,

I would have to disagree with you. I think txj hit the dagger on the money. When you talk of teams it includes coaches and the players. We all know Schaefer could not read a game and as a player at that level you gotta have enough sense to try something else when what you are doing is not getting any returns.

Cameroon is not the only team that has beaten Argentina by taking them out of their rythm. England did it to them in 2002. Greece had no chance against Brazil at the Conferations cup becuase Brazil's attack is dynamic. The Brazilians were attacking down the flanks with Gilberto & Cincinho from the full back position while Ribinho and Ronaldinho often difted to the flanks creating space in the middle. 4-5-1 is not always the answer.

You look at Cameroon vs Ireland, it was the same thing as Cameroon vs Germany only the Germans executed better than the Irish. Both Germany and Ireland realized we possed no real danger with our pacy front men as we seldom try to get the ball behind the defense or split the defense with a pass so they had no need to play an offside trap. It is the same philosophy the Turks used to eliminate Senegal. The Turks knew they could not match Diouf & Camara's speed or slow down Fadiga so they just made sure they outnumbered the Senegalese on the resulting cross.
When African teams start trying to play in their strikers in space behind the defense rather than get the ball in their feet, we will win some big games.
Abakwa:

First off, I dont disagree with Txj's analysis of the game. I take issue only with his unfortunate choice of words.

But you seem to have forgotten a key fact: In WC 2002 Cameroon faded in the second half in ALL their games; they could barely stay on their feet against the Saudis and it was a ROYAL relief when Eto'o scored the lone goal winner. After that there were some hairy moments when the Saudis raided our defense. The Germans benefitted from the fact that this fatigue factor got progressively worse. Reason? the farcical trip that saw the team fly thru all of the pacific basin to get to Japan in about as much time as it took Phileas Fogg to go around the world.

Despite all of that, we still had to play that ill-advised friendly with England - a game we took too seriously, made very few substitutions, and faded at the end as well. You'll have to put that on the coaching staff, but it also points to the fact that much of the blunders displayed on the field have their genesis in the very poor preparation outside of it. As with most complex issues we resort much too often to sweeping generalizations and caricature.

This whole thing about "tactical naivety" is just racial prejudice in manifestation.
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Post by txj »

Mbape,
Perhaps my use of words is wrong...but it underlines the frustration I had first watching the game live in that fateful day in June (with my sis who was visiting going under the knife in a NYC hospital). Underlying my words however is the point that CMR underachieved against a German team they were superior to.
Coming to your main points, first in 1990, the IL played to their very nature, a robust physical game against Argentina, and should have no apologies for that. But never at any stage did they play a cynical game to destabilize a superior opponent...No two games are the same, and not all African teams show tactical naivety, and not in every game...


Mbape wrote:
txj wrote:Watching the game again, for me, and sorry to say this, it came down to the thick headedness and downright stupidity of the Cameroonian players. It was so glaring to see what the Germans were doing, especially Torsten Frings!

kongi the emir wrote:I have long been talking about the impact psychology has in team sports and how african teams are always at a psychological disadvantage. African generally believe that if they have enough talent and time to practice they have a CHANCE to win but history has proves that we have never come close to rubbing shoulders with giants when all is at stake. Main reaching the WC semis. The game you just feature, Eng V Cam 90, Nig vs Italy & Arg 94 and even the WYC 05 are all examples of how we are lacking in the mental aspects of the game. Note that the german approach was simple. The would not allow cameroun to ply their game period. They will engage u in any other way but the way u know how to. The sad thing is that till today there is not one african side that can recover if they are denied their game plan, none.

For example. Overcrowding the midfield and crossing beat the eagles in every WC we've ever being to. Guess what!!! It still beats us today.
Wow, its amazing how quick Africans are to call other Africans stupid. It would have been much better to say the game plan was stupid, rather than that the players were. This is overanalyzing one game really. As I read this analysis it occurred to me that a similar one could be made about Cameroon vs. Argentina, 1990. Lots of fouls early by Cameroon that completely frustrated the free flow style of a much superior Argie attack. Cameroon went down 2 men, played a brilliant counter-attacking game that earned a famous victory. No one would dare call that Argie team stupid or tactically naive, and for good reason (that term seems to be reserved for black African teams). There is also Senegal vs. France, another brilliantly executed plan by an African team to earn a scintillating upset against the odds, but it appears quite logical not to ascribe stupidity to the French side.

Get my drift?

Cameroon may
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Post by txj »

The first part of the title is essentially generic. Not all African teams are tactically naive, and not in every game. Secondly, the term tactically naive has been frequently used for several European teams in the past- Finland, Greece, Turkey, Faroe Islands, Cyprus, even England! So lets get off this racism crap! Thats not what this tread is about...
I am talking about a team that frankly underachieved, massively...and how they lost a game, in a manner in which, frankly they shoud've known better!

Enugu II wrote:
Mbape wrote:
txj wrote:Watching the game again, for me, and sorry to say this, it came down to the thick headedness and downright stupidity of the Cameroonian players. It was so glaring to see what the Germans were doing, especially Torsten Frings!

kongi the emir wrote:I have long been talking about the impact psychology has in team sports and how african teams are always at a psychological disadvantage. African generally believe that if they have enough talent and time to practice they have a CHANCE to win but history has proves that we have never come close to rubbing shoulders with giants when all is at stake. Main reaching the WC semis. The game you just feature, Eng V Cam 90, Nig vs Italy & Arg 94 and even the WYC 05 are all examples of how we are lacking in the mental aspects of the game. Note that the german approach was simple. The would not allow cameroun to ply their game period. They will engage u in any other way but the way u know how to. The sad thing is that till today there is not one african side that can recover if they are denied their game plan, none.

For example. Overcrowding the midfield and crossing beat the eagles in every WC we've ever being to. Guess what!!! It still beats us today.
Wow, its amazing how quick Africans are to call other Africans stupid. It would have been much better to say the game plan was stupid, rather than that the players were. This is overanalyzing one game really. As I read this analysis it occurred to me that a similar one could be made about Cameroon vs. Argentina, 1990. Lots of fouls early by Cameroon that completely frustrated the free flow style of a much superior Argie attack. Cameroon went down 2 men, played a brilliant counter-attacking game that earned a famous victory. No one would dare call that Argie team stupid or tactically naive, and for good reason (that term seems to be reserved for black African teams). There is also Senegal vs. France, another brilliantly executed plan by an African team to earn a scintillating upset against the odds, but it appears quite logical not to ascribe stupidity to the French side.

Get my drift?

Cameroon may

Nothing more needs to be added. I the post and was frankly baffled by the restatement of an Euro-commentators' cliche that smack of prejudice. This, I must say, was a major problem for me. These cliches often cannot pass a simple test such as demonstrated quite convincingly by Mbape, above. African naivety? Geez we can all point to several examples of non-African teams that exhibit what Euros call naivety but as Mbape mentions you will hardly hear that word associated with an Euro team.
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Post by txj »

Mbape,
Your problem is that u look at this thread from a defensive stand point; understandable being a cameroonian and a fan of the IL. But this is neither an attempt to put down the team nor make a caricature of it. It is more a regret of what could've been...


Mbape wrote:
abakwa wrote:Mbappe,

I would have to disagree with you. I think txj hit the dagger on the money. When you talk of teams it includes coaches and the players. We all know Schaefer could not read a game and as a player at that level you gotta have enough sense to try something else when what you are doing is not getting any returns.

Cameroon is not the only team that has beaten Argentina by taking them out of their rythm. England did it to them in 2002. Greece had no chance against Brazil at the Conferations cup becuase Brazil's attack is dynamic. The Brazilians were attacking down the flanks with Gilberto & Cincinho from the full back position while Ribinho and Ronaldinho often difted to the flanks creating space in the middle. 4-5-1 is not always the answer.

You look at Cameroon vs Ireland, it was the same thing as Cameroon vs Germany only the Germans executed better than the Irish. Both Germany and Ireland realized we possed no real danger with our pacy front men as we seldom try to get the ball behind the defense or split the defense with a pass so they had no need to play an offside trap. It is the same philosophy the Turks used to eliminate Senegal. The Turks knew they could not match Diouf & Camara's speed or slow down Fadiga so they just made sure they outnumbered the Senegalese on the resulting cross.
When African teams start trying to play in their strikers in space behind the defense rather than get the ball in their feet, we will win some big games.
Abakwa:

First off, I dont disagree with Txj's analysis of the game. I take issue only with his unfortunate choice of words.

But you seem to have forgotten a key fact: In WC 2002 Cameroon faded in the second half in ALL their games; they could barely stay on their feet against the Saudis and it was a ROYAL relief when Eto'o scored the lone goal winner. After that there were some hairy moments when the Saudis raided our defense. The Germans benefitted from the fact that this fatigue factor got progressively worse. Reason? the farcical trip that saw the team fly thru all of the pacific basin to get to Japan in about as much time as it took Phileas Fogg to go around the world.

Despite all of that, we still had to play that ill-advised friendly with England - a game we took too seriously, made very few substitutions, and faded at the end as well. You'll have to put that on the coaching staff, but it also points to the fact that much of the blunders displayed on the field have their genesis in the very poor preparation outside of it. As with most complex issues we resort much too often to sweeping generalizations and caricature.

This whole thing about "tactical naivety" is just racial prejudice in manifestation.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Post by txj »

My example is specific to one game, but the title of the thread is broad, though essentially generic. As I said earlier, not all African teams show tactical naivety, and not in every game! And that's my point. So it makes little sense to pull out examples of other games to knock down what is a very specific post- that the IL lost to an opponent they were clearly superior to, thru acts I deem to have been tactically naive, even when knowing better!
I give u an example from the match: B/w the 27-29m of the 1HF, Metzelder hacks down Mboma; Khan clatters into Song during the resulting FK while conceeding a CK; the latter rather than simply walk away or urge a YC for Khan gets into a shoving match; few seconds later the CK is taken; Song misses a free header from 8yrds! Why? He had obviously lost composure and focus, this for a top professional of many years standing!


northAfrican wrote:txj,
You have obviously gotten people talking. So why don't I talk to you too. You seem like a guy who knows what happened in which game. Remember the Denmark-Senegal game. Well the Danes were trying very hard to provoke the Senegalese and it did not work. That bald stocky guy who plays in the premiereship, I forgot his forgettable name, was at it constantly. They stepped on a Senegalese player while he was down and were constantly mouthing Diao off. And then they lead. Metsu brings on two more strikers and the Senegalese players immediately get the idea and the following half hour or so we see the Danes in their red shirts running around scared and confused and hopelessly trying to not concede a bucket of goals. Their faces told the story. Now that was keeping your cool and refusing to be provoked and a demonstration of the opposite of what you said about Cameroon ( Note I am not defending Cameroon). I would call this kind of opposite behaviour "Strategic awareness". The Senegalese knew, all of them, that the edge to their game is physicality and boundless attack in fluid formations. In fact they played a different formation in every game.

At least that is an example I can justifiably interpret to demonstrate the existence of the opposite trait in this one instant. Not to clinch an argument, because I think there is a germ of truth in what you say, but just to provide scope to the applicability of your charge againt African teams in general.

I would like to also know of how you would describe Cameroon's tactics against Argentina in 1990. How did they manage to rob them of their normal game and neutralize Maradona. I am not quizing you here, I just think that Cameroon there showed another trait that the antithesis of tactical naivity.

If you got time we can probably find more examples.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Post by Enugu II »

Txj:

Nice to know that you are not referring to all African teams because I was surely baffled and you know why.

In any case, your title and the very choice of words were the justifications for the criticisms that followed. If you note, you referred to African naivety and then proceeded to give an example of Cameroon. All readers, as demonstrated thus far, were justified to interprete it as using the Cameroon case to exemplify African naivety and thus the need to address the matter.
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Post by lagos777 »

Enugu II wrote:Txj:

Nice to know that you are not referring to all African teams because I was surely baffled and you know why.

In any case, your title and the very choice of words were the justifications for the criticisms that followed. If you note, you referred to African naivety and then proceeded to give an example of Cameroon. All readers, as demonstrated thus far, were justified to interprete it as using the Cameroon case to exemplify African naivety and thus the need to address the matter.
It really is unsettling for me when I hear commentators make such remarks. I've seen England, Italy, Holland etc thrown of their game plans and fall apart. They never call them naive, they just blame the coaches. This African teams are mostly coached by FCs, the coaches should catch the blame for lack of tactical response, NOT THE BLACK PLAYERS.
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Post by YUJAM »

Just heard the term 'naive' used in reference to African teams on the 45/45 show on GOL TV. :evil:
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Post by BabaNaija »

Choice of words or not, you have to see where Txj is coming from. Another case study is Nigeria v. Italy (USA 94). Even if oyibo man call us naive, you're not it unless you manifest it. African teams have always managed to prove that somehow or the other.
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Post by lagos777 »

BabaNaija wrote:Choice of words or not, you have to see where Txj is coming from. Another case study is Nigeria v. Italy (USA 94). Even if oyibo man call us naive, you're not it unless you manifest it. African teams have always managed to prove that somehow or the other.
Were the Bulgarians that reached the Semi's described as naive after we thumped them ? Is it Naivety that dropped Siasia from the team. Is it naivety that made the ref let Albertini run rampant and take out our two most inform and potent players , Amunike and Amokachie ? He didn't get a single card. Is it naivety that made the Ref leave Maldini ?? on the pitch after Yekini beat him one on one and was facing the keeper. That foul was a red card, a glaring one that the ref turned a blind eye to. He dragged the guy down. You guys just talk a lot of bullocks.
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Post by txj »

In some ways they were, but for the most part, they were simply blown away by a team that was physically and technically superior by far...
People need not be so touchy about self criticisim; yes it is true African teams have and do show naivety, but not every African team, not in every game, and not thru the 90mins of every game! And so have some European teams! And not all teams that lost games did so from tactical naivety...Some were just simply outplayed!
It is interesting that in a recent interview, no less a person than Keshi, commented that his first step in Togo was to address the lack of tactical awareness in the team...

lagos777 wrote:
BabaNaija wrote:Choice of words or not, you have to see where Txj is coming from. Another case study is Nigeria v. Italy (USA 94). Even if oyibo man call us naive, you're not it unless you manifest it. African teams have always managed to prove that somehow or the other.
Were the Bulgarians that reached the Semi's described as naive after we thumped them ? Is it Naivety that dropped Siasia from the team. Is it naivety that made the ref let Albertini run rampant and take out our two most inform and potent players , Amunike and Amokachie ? He didn't get a single card. Is it naivety that made the Ref leave Maldini ?? on the pitch after Yekini beat him one on one and was facing the keeper. That foul was a red card, a glaring one that the ref turned a blind eye to. He dragged the guy down. You guys just talk a lot of bullocks.
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by txj »

11.5 years later, has anything really changed?
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by marutimon »

Say what you want about North African football or for example Ghanaian football, but calling them naive is just stupid. Especially focus on Ghana as they are so close to us. They have a very specific style of play and their tactical prowess since 2006 onwards has been outstanding. They don't always have the top players, but the always have an organized midfield and backline. Even when they lose, they do it not because they were tactically naive, but for other footballing reasons.

For what its worth they were the only team to go head to head vs Germany and were one boneheaded decision by Jordan Ayew fro thrashing Germany, the team that ended up World Champs.

If anything I must say that since 2006 Ghana is tactically the most complete team in Africa. What they lack right now is quality players, but the recent Ethiopia game might suggest that is about to change. Very interested in USA and Mexico friendlies of Ghana...
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by camex »

marutimon wrote:Say what you want about North African football or for example Ghanaian football, but calling them naive is just stupid. Especially focus on Ghana as they are so close to us. They have a very specific style of play and their tactical prowess since 2006 onwards has been outstanding. They don't always have the top players, but the always have an organized midfield and backline. Even when they lose, they do it not because they were tactically naive, but for other footballing reasons.

For what its worth they were the only team to go head to head vs Germany and were one boneheaded decision by Jordan Ayew fro thrashing Germany, the team that ended up World Champs.

If anything I must say that since 2006 Ghana is tactically the most complete team in Africa. What they lack right now is quality players, but the recent Ethiopia game might suggest that is about to change. Very interested in USA and Mexico friendlies of Ghana...
Egypt is also up there in terms of tactics. Cameroon at the last ANC too.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by wiseone »

Egypt have consistently been the best drilled and tactically sophisticated African team for over a decade. They got to four AFCON finals in a row with no superstars (except Salah and Aboutrika) and a bunch of home-based players - most of whom played for one Egyptian cub side. If they had some of the players that IVC or Senegal have had during that era, they would probably have reached the WC SF.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

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wiseone wrote:Egypt have consistently been the best drilled and tactically sophisticated African team for over a decade. They got to four AFCON finals in a row with no superstars (except Salah and Aboutrika) and a bunch of home-based players - most of whom played for one Egyptian cub side. If they had some of the players that IVC or Senegal have had during that era, they would probably have reached the WC SF.
They won 3 in a row but I get your point. I disagree with your conclusion because at the exception of Algeria Germany 1982,North African teams have usually folded against European ones. In 1990 Egypt had the likes of Abdelgami but did not attack against Holland or England.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by wiseone »

I always say that the ingredients required to win the AFCON are not those required to win the WC. This is why you rarely see a correlation between AFCON winners and WC performance. e.g. the same Egypt team I lauded have not been at the WC in an era in which they got to 4 AFCON finals in a row! Cameroon similarly stunk up the WC joint while they won back to back AFCONs.

Re north African sides and European teams: Germany's toughest game at the last WC was against Algeria (who took them to the limit and ET in round 2). Algeria are threatening to become the IVC, Nigeria, Holland, and Argentina of this decade (big talent, big chokers).
camex wrote:had some of the players that IVC or Senegal have had during that era, they would probably have reached the WC SF.
They won 3 in a row but I get your point. I disagree with your conclusion because at the exception of Algeria Germany 1982,North African teams have usually folded against European ones. In 1990 Egypt had the likes of Abdelgami but did not attack against Holland or England.[/quote]
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by marutimon »

wiseone wrote:Re north African sides and European teams: Germany's toughest game at the last WC was against Algeria (who took them to the limit and ET in round 2).
Not true. Germany's toughest game at the last WC was against Ghana. They could have well lost 3:1, but eked out a 2:2 draw.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by wiseone »

Good shout. I forgot about that game. Actually Ghana threw that game away. That was actually a better example of "African naivety" than some of the other examples cited.
marutimon wrote: Not true. Germany's toughest game at the last WC was against Ghana. They could have well lost 3:1, but eked out a 2:2 draw.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by marutimon »

wiseone wrote:Good shout. I forgot about that game. Actually Ghana threw that game away. That was actually a better example of "African naivety" than some of the other examples cited.
marutimon wrote: Not true. Germany's toughest game at the last WC was against Ghana. They could have well lost 3:1, but eked out a 2:2 draw.
You must be kidding? Ghana naive in that game? Far from it. And individual mindmelt from Jordan Ayew and the great Klose. No naivety there.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

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camex wrote:
wiseone wrote:Egypt have consistently been the best drilled and tactically sophisticated African team for over a decade. They got to four AFCON finals in a row with no superstars (except Salah and Aboutrika) and a bunch of home-based players - most of whom played for one Egyptian cub side. If they had some of the players that IVC or Senegal have had during that era, they would probably have reached the WC SF.
They won 3 in a row but I get your point. I disagree with your conclusion because at the exception of Algeria Germany 1982,North African teams have usually folded against European ones. In 1990 Egypt had the likes of Abdelgami but did not attack against Holland or England.

Morocco, is another North African team that did not fold - beat Portugal 3-1 in 1986 to get to the 2nd round. 1st African to the next round before Cameroon in 1990.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by camex »

Workman wrote:
camex wrote:
wiseone wrote:Egypt have consistently been the best drilled and tactically sophisticated African team for over a decade. They got to four AFCON finals in a row with no superstars (except Salah and Aboutrika) and a bunch of home-based players - most of whom played for one Egyptian cub side. If they had some of the players that IVC or Senegal have had during that era, they would probably have reached the WC SF.
They won 3 in a row but I get your point. I disagree with your conclusion because at the exception of Algeria Germany 1982,North African teams have usually folded against European ones. In 1990 Egypt had the likes of Abdelgami but did not attack against Holland or England.

Morocco, is another North African team that did not fold - beat Portugal 3-1 in 1986 to get to the 2nd round. 1st African to the next round before Cameroon in 1990.
They actually did in the second round and spend the 90 minutes defending against Germany.
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Re: The WC & African Naivety: A Case Study of Cameroon

Post by bamenda boy »

How Naive was the Cameroon team tray went to the 03 CC Finals?
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