Nigeria has never got its central midfield strategy right

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omotori
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Post by omotori »

Nigeria should never field a team without 2 solid 2-way DM's. We have to approach these positions as specialist roles, not roles that should be toyed with.

There is no doubt that JJ can play DM, but he would have to focus on developing a rhytm with the other DM which would mean significantly reducing his central playmaker role.

as of today, the best role to play JJ is in the former Amokachi role with two solid DM's behind him. He is a totally different player from Amokachi but with a little hustle he can be just as effective. This role would place JJ in the opponents third more , which is what we really need.

The real problem is JJ prefers to play in the midfileld where he gets the ball a lot more.

The most effective improvementCCC can make would be to forge a 2 DM tandem probably in Olofin & Obodo. If he overlooks this edge, he would have missed a great opportunity. The problem is he would have to completely re-evaluate his use of JJ & Kanu.

I doubt that CCC can reduce his belief in the JJ/Kanu formula sufficiently, in favor of forging a balanced interchanging 2-DM tandem.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

Jimi wrote:I see some minor contradictions in your above write-up. I am under the impression that you favor a system where as one midfielder moves forward, the other plays a holding defensive role. But then you said Olofinjana and Obodo did that against Malawi to your displeasure. Then you said Cameroon played poorly at he ANC, even though they implemented your system. My guy, give me a chance to understand your position. Honestly , I support a 4-3-3 formation with a solid back four. Consequently, the rest of the squad dropping back and forth as required , with the main striker ready to lead the break.
Phew! I knew this would be difficult but at least we are debating it in a matured fashion like proper adults.

Please get my point. Against Malawi, Olofinjana and Obodo were not playing it rightly. The personnel was there but the necessary fluidity was not.

What we had was Olofinjana sitting back for 90 minutes and Obodo bombing forward ala Okocha. May I add that Obodo was a bit childish with his unnecesary showboating, trying the thrill the Abuja crowd, which did not help.

In that game, whenever Olofinjana got the ball, he passed it to Obodo and then just sat back, even when there was a counter attack on and he could have hurt the opposition by driving forward. The way the system is designed to work, whichever of these two that wins the ball should initiate a counter attack and the other drop back to fil the vacant space.

As per Cameroon, if you read my initial contribution, I did make mention of the fact that central midfield was one of the areas Schaffer got right, although the team was lacking in other areas such as central defence for instance. Mbami and Djemba-Djemba had a good working understanding in that area.

Let me give you an example, in the game against Algeria, Djemba-Djemba was the one on the edge of the area who backhealed the ball to Geremi for him to cross for Mboma to get the goal. Now, traditionally, Mbami is the more offensive of the two and Djemba-Djemba the more defensive. However, the two of them figured a way to operate with fluidity.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

Mudi E wrote:Ayoakinfe is really passionate about this midfield thing sha...Chei Ayo, you're hot over this issue. I do agree with you. However, what do we do about the wing play? You know that Ikedia still factors in our plans and is likely to feature in the world cup qualifying. What happens if Ikedia plays and is contributing immensely to the team? If we use two anchormen as you said, the wing play will be virtually none-existent. The attack will come solely from the middle and that will make the team predictable.

What i'm suggesting is that we have to find a way to combine both wing play in the two anchormen formation, that's diversify the attack and middle defense. Any input to this?
Mudi, my approach to this is simple. In the modern game, very few teams if any still use wingers. Pius Ikedia for me is a luxury only to be used as an emergency brought on from the bench if you are chasing a goal.

In 2004, most width is provided by full backs or wing backs as the French call them e.g

Arsenal - Lauren and Cole
Chelsea – Melkhiot and Bridge
Real Madrid – Salgado and Roberto Carlos
AC Milan – Cafu and Pancaro
Brazil – Roberto Carlos and Cafu
France – Thuram and Lizarazu
Inter Milan – Zanetti and Cordoba
Argentina – Sorin and Zanetti

I can go on forever but the point is that, no club will sign a full back today unless he has the ability to provide width, can cross well and is a two-way player good at geting up and down the line. The days of the gopod old fashioned full back like Patrick Ekeji and Sam Ojebode who were hard to beat but were poor going forward ala Efe Sodje, are long gone.

Nigeria does not have a problem here because George Abbey is the best crosser of the ball in the team and Albacete's Muyiwa Lawal can easily fulfil that role. On the left, we have an abundance of talent with Babayaro, Udeze, Melkham, Ekwueme and Moneke who can all deliver the goods.

Thjis is why I am a 3-5-2 fan. The formation gives you solid anchorage in central midfield, width, the added bonus of a playmaker like JJ and it still allows you to play two strikers.

Of course you can achieve this with other formations like 4-3-1-2 but my preference is for 3-5-2. Please my brother, we have to move away from our love of good old fashioned wingers.

The era of Odegbami, Adokie, Finidi and Ammunike is gone. We cannot keep on harking back to the good old days. Let's move on. We are in 2004 and have the play the modern way if we want to win anything.
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Post by YUJAM »

Ayo:
I agree with your basic premise that it is prudent for teams to use the two anchormen. As per the Olofinjana and Obodo combo, I see it a bit differently. Olofinjana is limited (at least for now) when it comes to his ability to distribute the ball from a deep position. Obodo is much better than him at this aspect of the game. Therefore, I'd like to see Obodo play a Pirlo style role for Nigeria, distributing the ball quickly to the likes of Utaka, JJ, Kalu, and Osaze. He'd play as a deep midfield general. Along with these duties, he'd also have some defensive work - a role he is also accustomed to.

Olofinjana would be a freelance destroyer of sorts, with his primary responsibilities being defensive.
Last edited by YUJAM on Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

YUJAM wrote:Ayo:
I agree with your basic premise that it is prudent for teams to use the two anchormen. As per the Olofinjana and Obodo combo, I see it a bit differently. Olofinjana is limited (at least for now) when it comes to his ability to distribute the ball for a deep position. Obodo is much better than him at this aspect of the game. Therefore, I'd like to see Obodo play a Pirlo style role for Nigeria, distributing the ball quickly to the likes of Utaka, JJ, Kalu, and Osaze. He'd play as a deep midfield general. Along with these duties, he'd also have some defensive work - a role he is also accustomed to.

Olofinjana would be a freelance destroyer of sorts, with his primary responsibilities being defensive.
One thing that still baffles me is how come everyone here agrees with thew premise of two anchormen but Chukwu does not get it ? We need Enugu II to come here and tell us how this fits in with his principle that no one here can no better than Chukwu because they did not coach or play at his level.

As per Seyi and Obodo, I beg to disagree Yujam. Olofinjana is the better offensive player and his distribution has traditionally been the strongest side of his game.

Seyi did not score 10 goals in the Norwegian league last season by being a crap offensive player. We all know why he did not play as well as he could in Tunisia but surely no one will blame him for folowing instructions.
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Post by omotori »

The era of Odegbami, Adokie, Finidi and Ammunike is gone. We cannot keep on harking back to the good old days. Let's move on. We are in 2004 and have the play the modern way if we want to win anything.
you keep saying this. Yet if we had any of these guys available today in good form, I guarantee he would be an automatic shirt.

And you said, midfield players have to be too way. Fine I agree 100%. Amunike is undisputably 2-way in the regular sense. Finidi with his holding & play,aking is likewise 2-way in a different way.

Adokie & Odegbami I cannot say, but they are both likely to have decent 2-way abilities in the Finidi fashion (i.e. not necessarilly good defence but decent holding/playmaking/crossing/passing).

Any of these guys would be a lock for the eagus today. When you see players of this caliber, you find a way to accomodate them regardless of what the "purist" coaching manual says.

The key is to maintain balance. Kanu in his heyday may have been worth accomodatig but his game today lacks leverage.
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Post by YUJAM »

Ayo:
Seyi might be a better goal scorer but Obodo is a better distributor and has more body moves!

They would compliment each other well though and this would also add balance to the team.
Ayo Akinfe wrote:
YUJAM wrote:Ayo:
I agree with your basic premise that it is prudent for teams to use the two anchormen. As per the Olofinjana and Obodo combo, I see it a bit differently. Olofinjana is limited (at least for now) when it comes to his ability to distribute the ball for a deep position. Obodo is much better than him at this aspect of the game. Therefore, I'd like to see Obodo play a Pirlo style role for Nigeria, distributing the ball quickly to the likes of Utaka, JJ, Kalu, and Osaze. He'd play as a deep midfield general. Along with these duties, he'd also have some defensive work - a role he is also accustomed to.

Olofinjana would be a freelance destroyer of sorts, with his primary responsibilities being defensive.
One thing that still baffles me is how come everyone here agrees with thew premise of two anchormen but Chukwu does not get it ? We need Enugu II to come here and tell us how this fits in with his principle that no one here can no better than Chukwu because they did not coach or play at his level.

As per Seyi and Obodo, I beg to disagree Yujam. Olofinjana is the better offensive player and his distribution has traditionally been the strongest side of his game.

Seyi did not score 10 goals in the Norwegian league last season by being a crap offensive player. We all know why he did not play as well as he could in Tunisia but surely no one will blame him for folowing instructions.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

Omotori, have not seen how much of a liability Mark Overmaars is today? Nobody wants him because he is a one-way player!

Why do you think Pius Ikedia failed to make it at Ajax? He got dropped for the same reasons Ajax parted ways with TJ. Particularly with Ajax's total football philosophy, in the modern game, teams cannot afford to accomodate one-way players.

In the case of the Eagles, once you have Okocha, you are asking for trouble using another one-way player. With regards to Finidi and Ammunike, you can only play them in the same team with Okocha if you resort to 4-3-3-, 3-5-2, 4-3-1-2 or 4-5-1.

Just forget about playing Finidi, Olofinjana/Oliseh, Okocha and Ammunike as a midfield quartet. It is a recipe for disaster as Denmark showed in France 98.
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Post by omotori »

Just forget about playing Finidi, Olofinjana/Oliseh, Okocha and Ammunike as a midfield quartet. It is a recipe for disaster as Denmark showed in France 98.
assumng we reqire 2 DM's, if you move Okocha to support striker & replace him with Mutiu or Siasa or Olofin or Obodo or Justice, the midfield quartet looks pretty good to me.

the more I think about it, eagus need to resolve JJ's true role before we can move forward. because it is clear that despite his awesome talent, his role in the team raises a lot of balanc issues.

as for Ikedia, if Ajax gave up on him, thats not a good omen, But he can still be useful to the eagus given his ability to penetrate.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

omotori wrote:
Just forget about playing Finidi, Olofinjana/Oliseh, Okocha and Ammunike as a midfield quartet. It is a recipe for disaster as Denmark showed in France 98.
assumng we reqire 2 DM's, if you move Okocha to support striker & replace him with Mutiu or Siasa or Olofin or Obodo or Justice, the midfield quartet looks pretty good to me.

the more I think about it, eagus need to resolve JJ's true role before we can move forward. because it is clear that despite his awesome talent, his role in the team raises a lot of balanc issues.

as for Ikedia, if Ajax gave up on him, thats not a good omen, But he can still be useful to the eagus given his ability to penetrate.
That can work if you have two two-way wide players AND if you have a big targetman like Mboma or Yekini who OKocha can play off.

You see, I agree with your premis about the need to be flexible but the only reason I arrived at the conclusion that we should play 3-5-2 is because it is the best formation suited toiwards the current crop of players. Maybe in the future we will have a different set of players who can play some other way.

I agree with your point about Okocha. Coaches are at a loss at to how to play him. Even Luiz Fernandez had this problem at PSG. One must give full marks to Sam Allardyce!

JJ is not an easy player to fit into a team formation. Like most other playmakers, he can only really be effective operating behind a front two.
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Post by Gadfly »

Ayo,

This is what Rinus Michels had to say about Finidi and Babangida:

"Only a few players master the technique to cross the ball with a 'feeling'. The cross is often not delivered correctly because the outside attacker loses the oversight of the situation, and/or lacks the technical qualities. One of the most of the most important ingredient of the attacking game is to deliver a good cross. It is also one of the most important ingredients. He has to be able to oversee a situation in which players are moving around in a split second. The player has to control himself and wait a split second to give the cross. This is extremely difficult! The defensive pressure on this player and his speed are usually high. Still he has to remain calm when he delivers the cross. Finidi Geroge was a master at this during his years at Ajax. However, one of his successors, Tijani Babangida, was much too nervous during that deciding moment. His speed would be so high that he was not able to shift down a bit in the split second before he would give the cross."
Ayo Akinfe wrote:Omotori, have not seen how much of a liability Mark Overmaars is today? Nobody wants him because he is a one-way player!

Why do you think Pius Ikedia failed to make it at Ajax? He got dropped for the same reasons Ajax parted ways with TJ. Particularly with Ajax's total football philosophy, in the modern game, teams cannot afford to accomodate one-way players.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

Gadfly wrote:Ayo,

This is what Rinus Michels had to say about Finidi and Babangida:

"Only a few players master the technique to cross the ball with a 'feeling'. The cross is often not delivered correctly because the outside attacker loses the oversight of the situation, and/or lacks the technical qualities. One of the most of the most important ingredient of the attacking game is to deliver a good cross. It is also one of the most important ingredients. He has to be able to oversee a situation in which players are moving around in a split second. The player has to control himself and wait a split second to give the cross. This is extremely difficult! The defensive pressure on this player and his speed are usually high. Still he has to remain calm when he delivers the cross. Finidi Geroge was a master at this during his years at Ajax. However, one of his successors, Tijani Babangida, was much too nervous during that deciding moment. His speed would be so high that he was not able to shift down a bit in the split second before he would give the cross."
Ayo Akinfe wrote:Omotori, have not seen how much of a liability Mark Overmaars is today? Nobody wants him because he is a one-way player!

Why do you think Pius Ikedia failed to make it at Ajax? He got dropped for the same reasons Ajax parted ways with TJ. Particularly with Ajax's total football philosophy, in the modern game, teams cannot afford to accomodate one-way players.
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I fully agree with that Gadfly but what is are tallking about here is a lot more than just crossing. Michels talks sense as ever, however, we have to look at more than this one aspect because if you do not get the team structure right, you will never have enough of the ball to cross it.
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Post by Kojak »

nowadays: Jay-Jay Okocha / Seyi Olofinjana
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Post by Jimi »

Ayo Akinfe, since you are perhaps the biggest proponent of the 3-5-2 on Cybereagles, let me stir your strategy with a few scenarios. If you play 3-5-2, I would assume that your back three must be solid defensive players in the mould of Desailly( 3 yrs ago), Nesta, Maldini, Ferdinand etc right? You will also be banking on certain designated midfield players to be able to play supportive defensive roles right? Now, Knowing naijas penchant for repeatedly breaking down and losing shape defensively, would our back three not be a little over-exposed by a strong offensive side like Brazil or France? And using that formation, who would you play at the back. I can only vouch for Yobo to hold his own as part of a back three line. Playing this your 3-5-2 with our current crop of defenders and over zealous attacking midfielders may not be a good idea. But then, perhaps you have a few wrinkles using this system you might want to explain to avoid a basketful of goals.
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Post by lagos777 »

Jimi wrote:Ayo Akinfe, since you are perhaps the biggest proponent of the 3-5-2 on Cybereagles, let me stir your strategy with a few scenarios. If you play 3-5-2, I would assume that your back three must be solid defensive players in the mould of Desailly( 3 yrs ago), Nesta, Maldini, Ferdinand etc right? You will also be banking on certain designated midfield players to be able to play supportive defensive roles right? Now, Knowing naijas penchant for repeatedly breaking down and losing shape defensively, would our back three not be a little over-exposed by a strong offensive side like Brazil or France? And using that formation, who would you play at the back. I can only vouch for Yobo to hold his own as part of a back three line. Playing this your 3-5-2 with our current crop of defenders and over zealous attacking midfielders may not be a good idea. But then, perhaps you have a few wrinkles using this system you might want to explain to avoid a basketful of goals.
3-5-2 (variation) is what brazil played to win the world cup. I don't know their solid CDs. Roque na basket anyday.
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Post by Mudi E »

Ayo....the strong proponent of the 3-5-2 formation. Chukwu might as well use it, should we fail, at least we have Ayo to blame for it.
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Post by Jimi »

lagos777 wrote:
Jimi wrote:Ayo Akinfe, since you are perhaps the biggest proponent of the 3-5-2 on Cybereagles, let me stir your strategy with a few scenarios. If you play 3-5-2, I would assume that your back three must be solid defensive players in the mould of Desailly( 3 yrs ago), Nesta, Maldini, Ferdinand etc right? You will also be banking on certain designated midfield players to be able to play supportive defensive roles right? Now, Knowing naijas penchant for repeatedly breaking down and losing shape defensively, would our back three not be a little over-exposed by a strong offensive side like Brazil or France? And using that formation, who would you play at the back. I can only vouch for Yobo to hold his own as part of a back three line. Playing this your 3-5-2 with our current crop of defenders and over zealous attacking midfielders may not be a good idea. But then, perhaps you have a few wrinkles using this system you might want to explain to avoid a basketful of goals.
3-5-2 (variation) is what brazil played to win the world cup. I don't know their solid CDs. Roque na basket anyday.
If you are comparing Brazil's midfielders to our midfielders, you might be for lack of a better word..nuts. Matter of fact, you can't even compare our strategy to that of Brazil.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

Jimi wrote:Ayo Akinfe, since you are perhaps the biggest proponent of the 3-5-2 on Cybereagles, let me stir your strategy with a few scenarios. If you play 3-5-2, I would assume that your back three must be solid defensive players in the mould of Desailly( 3 yrs ago), Nesta, Maldini, Ferdinand etc right? You will also be banking on certain designated midfield players to be able to play supportive defensive roles right? Now, Knowing naijas penchant for repeatedly breaking down and losing shape defensively, would our back three not be a little over-exposed by a strong offensive side like Brazil or France? And using that formation, who would you play at the back. I can only vouch for Yobo to hold his own as part of a back three line. Playing this your 3-5-2 with our current crop of defenders and over zealous attacking midfielders may not be a good idea. But then, perhaps you have a few wrinkles using this system you might want to explain to avoid a basketful of goals.
Here we go again. Some of the lack of comprehension on this site is mindblowing. Phew!!! May the good Lord give me patience.

Morocco used the 3-5-2 formation in Tunisia 2004 to good effect. Please tell me why id Ouaddou, Naybet and El Khakouri can operate as a solid back three, Yobo, West and Enakharhire cannot.

Nigeria has much more talented players than Morocco. All you need is a coach who can mould them into a team and get them to operate in a disciplined manner.

You talk about midfield. Are Saffri and Mouhktari as good as Olofinjana and Obodo? Your talk of over-zealous attacking midfielders is just damn insulting to our players. They are mature professionals or are you saying they are incapable of playing to instructions?
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Post by Jimi »

Ayo Akinfe wrote:
Jimi wrote:Ayo Akinfe, since you are perhaps the biggest proponent of the 3-5-2 on Cybereagles, let me stir your strategy with a few scenarios. If you play 3-5-2, I would assume that your back three must be solid defensive players in the mould of Desailly( 3 yrs ago), Nesta, Maldini, Ferdinand etc right? You will also be banking on certain designated midfield players to be able to play supportive defensive roles right? Now, Knowing naijas penchant for repeatedly breaking down and losing shape defensively, would our back three not be a little over-exposed by a strong offensive side like Brazil or France? And using that formation, who would you play at the back. I can only vouch for Yobo to hold his own as part of a back three line. Playing this your 3-5-2 with our current crop of defenders and over zealous attacking midfielders may not be a good idea. But then, perhaps you have a few wrinkles using this system you might want to explain to avoid a basketful of goals.
Here we go again. Some of the lack of comprehension on this site is mindblowing. Phew!!! May the good Lord give me patience.

Morocco used the 3-5-2 formation in Tunisia 2004 to good effect. Please tell me why id Ouaddou, Naybet and El Khakouri can operate as a solid back three, Yobo, West and Enakharhire cannot.

Nigeria has much more talented players than Morocco. All you need is a coach who can mould them into a team and get them to operate in a disciplined manner.

You talk about midfield. Are Saffri and Mouhktari as good as Olofinjana and Obodo? Your talk of over-zealous attacking midfielders is just damn insulting to our players. They are mature professionals or are you saying they are incapable of playing to instructions?
Ayo,You be the best Monday morning quarterback in here.. Just dey strategize and experiment like CCC. Bottomline, your 3-5-2 is just too radical for the Eagles. What we need to do is focus on what we do best 4-4-2 or 4-3-3.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

Jimi wrote:
Ayo Akinfe wrote:
Jimi wrote:Ayo Akinfe, since you are perhaps the biggest proponent of the 3-5-2 on Cybereagles, let me stir your strategy with a few scenarios. If you play 3-5-2, I would assume that your back three must be solid defensive players in the mould of Desailly( 3 yrs ago), Nesta, Maldini, Ferdinand etc right? You will also be banking on certain designated midfield players to be able to play supportive defensive roles right? Now, Knowing naijas penchant for repeatedly breaking down and losing shape defensively, would our back three not be a little over-exposed by a strong offensive side like Brazil or France? And using that formation, who would you play at the back. I can only vouch for Yobo to hold his own as part of a back three line. Playing this your 3-5-2 with our current crop of defenders and over zealous attacking midfielders may not be a good idea. But then, perhaps you have a few wrinkles using this system you might want to explain to avoid a basketful of goals.
Here we go again. Some of the lack of comprehension on this site is mindblowing. Phew!!! May the good Lord give me patience.

Morocco used the 3-5-2 formation in Tunisia 2004 to good effect. Please tell me why id Ouaddou, Naybet and El Khakouri can operate as a solid back three, Yobo, West and Enakharhire cannot.

Nigeria has much more talented players than Morocco. All you need is a coach who can mould them into a team and get them to operate in a disciplined manner.

You talk about midfield. Are Saffri and Mouhktari as good as Olofinjana and Obodo? Your talk of over-zealous attacking midfielders is just damn insulting to our players. They are mature professionals or are you saying they are incapable of playing to instructions?
Ayo,You be the best Monday morning quarterback in here.. Just dey strategize and experiment like CCC. Bottomline, your 3-5-2 is just too radical for the Eagles. What we need to do is focus on what we do best 4-4-2 or 4-3-3.

Why?
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Post by Jimi »

I already told you that our defensive frailties will not support a 3-5-2 system. The Morrocans were more disciplined than us which is why they pulled it off the way they did. Offensively, this system would be a bonus for us cos we have never had problems scoring goals. I am more worried that the defensive midfielders like Obodo and Olofinjana will repeatedly get caught in wrong positions on defence. I mean look at how many times Olofinjana was caught napping in Tunisia and had to resort to late crude tackles.
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Post by Ayo Akinfe »

Jimi wrote:I already told you that our defensive frailties will not support a 3-5-2 system. The Morrocans were more disciplined than us which is why they pulled it off the way they did. Offensively, this system would be a bonus for us cos we have never had problems scoring goals. I am more worried that the defensive midfielders like Obodo and Olofinjana will repeatedly get caught in wrong positions on defence. I mean look at how many times Olofinjana was caught napping in Tunisia and had to resort to late crude tackles.
If Saffri and Moukhtaroi can anchor in a 3-5-2 formation, I see no reason why Chris and Seyi cannot. Our players are not as naive and primitive as yoiu are making them out to be my brother.

They do not think: "If I miss the ball I must not miss the leg." Why do you think our boiys cannot be disciplined?

It is as if you are condoning indiscipline and dribbling in the 18-yard box. Can I just mention that without this discipline, the team will win nothing, never, never, never.
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Post by Jimi »

Ayo Akinfe wrote:
Jimi wrote:I already told you that our defensive frailties will not support a 3-5-2 system. The Morrocans were more disciplined than us which is why they pulled it off the way they did. Offensively, this system would be a bonus for us cos we have never had problems scoring goals. I am more worried that the defensive midfielders like Obodo and Olofinjana will repeatedly get caught in wrong positions on defence. I mean look at how many times Olofinjana was caught napping in Tunisia and had to resort to late crude tackles.
If Saffri and Moukhtaroi can anchor in a 3-5-2 formation, I see no reason why Chris and Seyi cannot. Our players are not as naive and primitive as yoiu are making them out to be my brother.

They do not think: "If I miss the ball I must not miss the leg." Why do you think our boiys cannot be disciplined?

It is as if you are condoning indiscipline and dribbling in the 18-yard box. Can I just mention that without this discipline, the team will win nothing, never, never, never.
I agree with you that we must instill some discipline in our midfield if we want to play your magic 3-5-2..But don't you think it might be a little late to start trying that new stuff? I also hope you are not including Okoronkwo in that back three cos the team will collapse like a pack of dominos.

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