IS THE OLD TESTAMENT GOD REALLY GOD?
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IS THE OLD TESTAMENT GOD REALLY GOD?
Is the Jewish God of the Old Testament REALLY God?
BIBLE 101: NOT ALL IT'S CRACKED UP TO BE
By John Brand, D.Min., J.D.
A gentleman who has read some of my articles is very much concerned about the state of my soul as well as the soul of YellowTimes.org publisher Erich Marquardt. He suggests that if we do not believe in the errant word of God, we will certainly wind up in hell. I have always replied rather politely to his e-mails. Yet, my first impulse was to quote the Bible back to him: "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged." (Matthew 7:1) That is just one passage of many in which folks are warned not to judge others.
My second impulse is to point out to him that we are in deep trouble if the entire Bible is the inerrant word of God. Some of the most lurid stuff is found in the pages of the "Good Book." If the bare metal breast of a lifeless statue offends the Attorney General, he would probably have a serious fit if he ever were to read the 23rd Chapter of Ezekiel. The prophet recounts the fact that the tribes of Israel and Judah had not been faithful to God. The following are the supposed inerrant words of God reported in verses 18 - 21.
"When she (Judah) carried on the nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned from her sister (Israel). Yet she increased her whorings, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians fondled your bosom and caressed your young breasts."
Boy, this God is really expressive. In view of the fact that the popular image we have of God is one of decency and decorum, propriety and purity, I have a hard time accepting that kind of language as the inerrant word of God. It would make the ladies in most Sunday School classes blush to high heavens. And yet, fundamentalists insist this indeed is the true, eternal, and righteous word of God.
And then there is this story in Judges, chapters 19 - 21. Let me very briefly restate it. I am not taking literary license with a single word. A Levite, name not given, from the hill country of Ephraim, had a concubine whose home was in Bethlehem in Judea. (Whoa, well a little editorializing is all right. Does that mean that the inerrant word of God allows me to have a concubine? My wife can't complain about my request. After all, concubinage is ordained in the inerrant word.) One day the aforementioned lady got her nose out of joint and went back home to her Dad. Hubby followed her intending to sweet-talk her and bring her back.
He arrived at his father-in-law's house (the woman in question in a later verse is called the Levite's wife, so I guess we can call her Dad the man's father-in-law) and the two men ate and drank. They ate and drank for several days! (So, the inerrant word suggests that partying is o.k. I like that. The Biblical God takes on a bit of Bacchus's character here. I wonder if the Puritans knew that?) Anyway, time for partying was over.
The Levite and his concubine/wife left for the hill country. At night they stopped in the village of Gibeah, home to some members of the tribe of Benjamin.
The Levite and his concubine/wife were seated in the town square when an old man invited them to spend the night. The offer of hospitality was accepted. Again we are told that host and guest drank and ate. While they were having a good time, a perverse group of citizens banged on the door demanding that the host turn the guest over to them "so that we may have intercourse with him." (Judges 19:22) The old man refused because as polite and decent host he simply could not honor their request. He continued in v. 24, "Here are my virgin daughters and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do whatever you want to them."
Now this must really be exemplary moral behavior. The father protects his guest but is quite willing to have his daughters and his guest's concubine raped. There is not a word of God expressing his disapproval of the old man's offer. This, according to the reader who wants to save my soul, is the inerrant word of God. It is also the inerrant word to Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and who knows how many other millions of Americans who have bought into the fairy tale of the infallibility of the Bible without ever having read the book. But wait, it gets worse.
The Levite pushes his concubine out the door and she was raped and abused all night long. (v. 25) In the morning her master/husband (what do you call the man who has a concubine? I really don't know) saw her lying at the door. He said, "Get up, we are going." When she did not respond, he put her on a donkey and proceeded to go home.
Sometime later it dawned on him that the lady was dead.
So after he got home, he cut her body into twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent his servants to each of the twelve tribes of Israel with the message that the vile acts of the Benjaminites cried out for justice. Of course, not a word was said that he pushed her out the door knowing full well that the men who demanded to have sexual fun with him would not have a prayer meeting with the young lady.
Well, the furor of this affair caused a terrible war that caused the death of thousands upon thousands. And then in the end, in God's name, the city of Gibeah was burned. On God's orders all the men, women, and children, as well as all animals were killed.
To completely avenge the death of the concubine, some of the other towns of the tribe of Benjamin were also torched.
Now here is a sleeper. Six hundred Benjaminites escaped. After a few months, everybody's blood had cooled down.
It was discovered that these men did not have any prospects of getting married because all the women of their tribe had been killed. So the elders of the tribe of Israel, with God's approval one must assume, authorized the surviving Gibeonites to kidnap some women from Shiloh to take as their wives. Everybody lived happily ever after.
This is supposed to be the inerrant word of God? Come on, I have higher morals than that.
Chapter 15 of I Samuel presents a rather weird picture of the deity. The prophet Samuel claims that God ordered him to anoint Saul as King over Israel. In the same breath, he orders Saul, in God's name, to attack the Amalekites "and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." Talk about a bloodbath!
Well, Saul fought a victorious campaign and started to implement God's commandment to slaughter one and all.
But Saul was no dummy. He saved the best of the sheep and the cattle, the fatlings, the lambs and all that was valuable. Knowing something about international politics, Saul was also clever enough not to kill Agag, the king of the Amalekites. One never knows when a former enemy might prove to be an asset. After all, both Germany and Japan, our archenemies about sixty years ago, are now our buddies. Saul just anticipated international diplomacy by about 3,000 years.
Well, Samuel, even without modern hearing aids, heard the bleating of sheep and the lowing of cattle. He got pretty mad and started to berate Saul. "Damned," (this is my rendition of what he said to the king) "the Lord told you to kill everybody and everything. And what in the hell did you do, you ingrate? You take it upon yourself to defy God's word." Well, Saul could not stand the prophet's disapproval and confessed that he was a sinner by not chopping off all heads.
Saul was particularly contrite because Samuel threatened to dispose the King and anoint someone else in Saul's place. That really put Saul into a repentant mood. One assumes that to glorify God, Saul did go ahead and kill all the animals. It does not say that in the Bible but I assume that is what happened, particularly in view of what happens next.
Samuel demanded that King Agag be brought before him. Samuel said to the King: "As your sword has made women childless, so your mother shall be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag to pieces before the Lord in Gilgal." (v. 33) Can't you just hear all the angels in heaven breaking out in the Hallelujah Chorus? How happy one and all must have been to see the blood spurting from Agog's severed head.
Now if that is the 24-karat image of God, the genuine sterling silver image, recorded in an inerrant book, I claim that I would make a better God than that caricature. That brutality does not reflect an eternal essence. It does reflect tribal ethos of about 3,000 years ago. I might add, the tribal ethos that hasn't changed all that much. By God, we want bin Laden!
We'll hack the S.O.B. to pieces in the name of all that is holy and honorable.
The New Testament presents its own particular problems calling into question whether the Bible can really be said to be the inerrant word of God. Colossians 4:1 states my concerns most clearly, "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly." Not a word is said against the practice of slavery. To be sure, passages in the New Testament enjoin believers to treat their slaves in a humane manner but there is no word against the institution of slavery. Col 3:11 states that in the "renewal" there is no difference among classes of people such as Greeks, Jews, barbarians, Scythians, slave and free. But nothing is said about the practice of slavery itself. I Corinthians 12:13 repeats the same thought.
There is to be no difference among believers but again we find no injunction against slavery. It is somewhat difficult for me to consider a book to be the inerrant word of God that does not raise its voice against slavery but by implication condones the practice.
Another serious problem is posed in some passages of the New Testament that totally and unconditionally erase any trace of personal freedom in one's quest for a deeper meaning of life. Romans 8:29-30 states, "For those whom he (God) foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called. And those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
This express suppression of human will is further underlined in 9:16 of the same book: "So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy."
This last statement is particularly meaningless. If human will is excluded from the ultimate and final decision regarding one's fate and destiny, why would God have to show mercy? He already, according to Paul's writings, has decided whose dice will roll a seven or an eleven and whose will come up snake eyes or double sixes. So what is the place of mercy in a predetermined game? Mercy is needed if snake eyes are rolled and God says, "Oh, what the heck, give the poor sucker a chance" and he changes the roll into a seven. But there is no leeway here. God determined a long time ago who is going the win the pot and who will be left destitute. Such nonsense does not reflect inerrancy. Come on, now. I said "win the pot" not smoke it.
One final passage calling into question that God is the authentic author of these 66 books written over about 1,000 years. We have heard a lot from religious fundamentalists about wanting The Ten Commandments plastered all over this country. For openers, if they really believe that these injunctions came from God himself then all these Bible thumping folks will have to come out strongly against the death penalty. Exodus 20:13, "You shall not murder."
No place does it say that State sanctioned murder is not murder. Now the Bible, as we have seen with Samuel and Agog, is full of killing and murder and mayhem done in God's name. But the Commandment says, "Don't." Our President said that Jesus is his philosopher. Yet, he loves the death penalty. Doesn't make sense, does it?
But the Sixth Commandment is not my main point. What for heaven's sake kind of a deity is it that would say something like this: "For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of the parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing mercy to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20: 5,6) Come on now! I don't even know who any of my 16 great-great-grandparents were. If one of them said, "Damn you God!" I am to be held liable for his apostasy! That would be a really neurotic God who holds his grudges that long.
By the same token, if a truly faithful person, 1000 generations from now has a descendent who is totally ungodly, totally evil, totally sinful God promises to be kind to him. Surely, Adolf, Joe (Stalin) and Benito must have had somebody 1000 generations ago who was a pretty God-fearing character. One thousand generations ago is about 20,000 years. In that period of time one has accumulated a lot of ancestors. According to Scripture, Adolf, Joe, and Benito go free.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Only if one checks one's brains in the narthex of the nearest church can one subscribe to the idea that Scripture is inerrant.
So, those of you who want to save my soul and those of others, start reading the Bible with your brains intact.
If you really believe the Scriptures you would learn that one is to "love the Lord with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30, Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27 and sundry other passages in the Old Testament.)
BIBLE 101: NOT ALL IT'S CRACKED UP TO BE
By John Brand, D.Min., J.D.
A gentleman who has read some of my articles is very much concerned about the state of my soul as well as the soul of YellowTimes.org publisher Erich Marquardt. He suggests that if we do not believe in the errant word of God, we will certainly wind up in hell. I have always replied rather politely to his e-mails. Yet, my first impulse was to quote the Bible back to him: "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged." (Matthew 7:1) That is just one passage of many in which folks are warned not to judge others.
My second impulse is to point out to him that we are in deep trouble if the entire Bible is the inerrant word of God. Some of the most lurid stuff is found in the pages of the "Good Book." If the bare metal breast of a lifeless statue offends the Attorney General, he would probably have a serious fit if he ever were to read the 23rd Chapter of Ezekiel. The prophet recounts the fact that the tribes of Israel and Judah had not been faithful to God. The following are the supposed inerrant words of God reported in verses 18 - 21.
"When she (Judah) carried on the nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned from her sister (Israel). Yet she increased her whorings, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians fondled your bosom and caressed your young breasts."
Boy, this God is really expressive. In view of the fact that the popular image we have of God is one of decency and decorum, propriety and purity, I have a hard time accepting that kind of language as the inerrant word of God. It would make the ladies in most Sunday School classes blush to high heavens. And yet, fundamentalists insist this indeed is the true, eternal, and righteous word of God.
And then there is this story in Judges, chapters 19 - 21. Let me very briefly restate it. I am not taking literary license with a single word. A Levite, name not given, from the hill country of Ephraim, had a concubine whose home was in Bethlehem in Judea. (Whoa, well a little editorializing is all right. Does that mean that the inerrant word of God allows me to have a concubine? My wife can't complain about my request. After all, concubinage is ordained in the inerrant word.) One day the aforementioned lady got her nose out of joint and went back home to her Dad. Hubby followed her intending to sweet-talk her and bring her back.
He arrived at his father-in-law's house (the woman in question in a later verse is called the Levite's wife, so I guess we can call her Dad the man's father-in-law) and the two men ate and drank. They ate and drank for several days! (So, the inerrant word suggests that partying is o.k. I like that. The Biblical God takes on a bit of Bacchus's character here. I wonder if the Puritans knew that?) Anyway, time for partying was over.
The Levite and his concubine/wife left for the hill country. At night they stopped in the village of Gibeah, home to some members of the tribe of Benjamin.
The Levite and his concubine/wife were seated in the town square when an old man invited them to spend the night. The offer of hospitality was accepted. Again we are told that host and guest drank and ate. While they were having a good time, a perverse group of citizens banged on the door demanding that the host turn the guest over to them "so that we may have intercourse with him." (Judges 19:22) The old man refused because as polite and decent host he simply could not honor their request. He continued in v. 24, "Here are my virgin daughters and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do whatever you want to them."
Now this must really be exemplary moral behavior. The father protects his guest but is quite willing to have his daughters and his guest's concubine raped. There is not a word of God expressing his disapproval of the old man's offer. This, according to the reader who wants to save my soul, is the inerrant word of God. It is also the inerrant word to Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and who knows how many other millions of Americans who have bought into the fairy tale of the infallibility of the Bible without ever having read the book. But wait, it gets worse.
The Levite pushes his concubine out the door and she was raped and abused all night long. (v. 25) In the morning her master/husband (what do you call the man who has a concubine? I really don't know) saw her lying at the door. He said, "Get up, we are going." When she did not respond, he put her on a donkey and proceeded to go home.
Sometime later it dawned on him that the lady was dead.
So after he got home, he cut her body into twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent his servants to each of the twelve tribes of Israel with the message that the vile acts of the Benjaminites cried out for justice. Of course, not a word was said that he pushed her out the door knowing full well that the men who demanded to have sexual fun with him would not have a prayer meeting with the young lady.
Well, the furor of this affair caused a terrible war that caused the death of thousands upon thousands. And then in the end, in God's name, the city of Gibeah was burned. On God's orders all the men, women, and children, as well as all animals were killed.
To completely avenge the death of the concubine, some of the other towns of the tribe of Benjamin were also torched.
Now here is a sleeper. Six hundred Benjaminites escaped. After a few months, everybody's blood had cooled down.
It was discovered that these men did not have any prospects of getting married because all the women of their tribe had been killed. So the elders of the tribe of Israel, with God's approval one must assume, authorized the surviving Gibeonites to kidnap some women from Shiloh to take as their wives. Everybody lived happily ever after.
This is supposed to be the inerrant word of God? Come on, I have higher morals than that.
Chapter 15 of I Samuel presents a rather weird picture of the deity. The prophet Samuel claims that God ordered him to anoint Saul as King over Israel. In the same breath, he orders Saul, in God's name, to attack the Amalekites "and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." Talk about a bloodbath!
Well, Saul fought a victorious campaign and started to implement God's commandment to slaughter one and all.
But Saul was no dummy. He saved the best of the sheep and the cattle, the fatlings, the lambs and all that was valuable. Knowing something about international politics, Saul was also clever enough not to kill Agag, the king of the Amalekites. One never knows when a former enemy might prove to be an asset. After all, both Germany and Japan, our archenemies about sixty years ago, are now our buddies. Saul just anticipated international diplomacy by about 3,000 years.
Well, Samuel, even without modern hearing aids, heard the bleating of sheep and the lowing of cattle. He got pretty mad and started to berate Saul. "Damned," (this is my rendition of what he said to the king) "the Lord told you to kill everybody and everything. And what in the hell did you do, you ingrate? You take it upon yourself to defy God's word." Well, Saul could not stand the prophet's disapproval and confessed that he was a sinner by not chopping off all heads.
Saul was particularly contrite because Samuel threatened to dispose the King and anoint someone else in Saul's place. That really put Saul into a repentant mood. One assumes that to glorify God, Saul did go ahead and kill all the animals. It does not say that in the Bible but I assume that is what happened, particularly in view of what happens next.
Samuel demanded that King Agag be brought before him. Samuel said to the King: "As your sword has made women childless, so your mother shall be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag to pieces before the Lord in Gilgal." (v. 33) Can't you just hear all the angels in heaven breaking out in the Hallelujah Chorus? How happy one and all must have been to see the blood spurting from Agog's severed head.
Now if that is the 24-karat image of God, the genuine sterling silver image, recorded in an inerrant book, I claim that I would make a better God than that caricature. That brutality does not reflect an eternal essence. It does reflect tribal ethos of about 3,000 years ago. I might add, the tribal ethos that hasn't changed all that much. By God, we want bin Laden!
We'll hack the S.O.B. to pieces in the name of all that is holy and honorable.
The New Testament presents its own particular problems calling into question whether the Bible can really be said to be the inerrant word of God. Colossians 4:1 states my concerns most clearly, "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly." Not a word is said against the practice of slavery. To be sure, passages in the New Testament enjoin believers to treat their slaves in a humane manner but there is no word against the institution of slavery. Col 3:11 states that in the "renewal" there is no difference among classes of people such as Greeks, Jews, barbarians, Scythians, slave and free. But nothing is said about the practice of slavery itself. I Corinthians 12:13 repeats the same thought.
There is to be no difference among believers but again we find no injunction against slavery. It is somewhat difficult for me to consider a book to be the inerrant word of God that does not raise its voice against slavery but by implication condones the practice.
Another serious problem is posed in some passages of the New Testament that totally and unconditionally erase any trace of personal freedom in one's quest for a deeper meaning of life. Romans 8:29-30 states, "For those whom he (God) foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called. And those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
This express suppression of human will is further underlined in 9:16 of the same book: "So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy."
This last statement is particularly meaningless. If human will is excluded from the ultimate and final decision regarding one's fate and destiny, why would God have to show mercy? He already, according to Paul's writings, has decided whose dice will roll a seven or an eleven and whose will come up snake eyes or double sixes. So what is the place of mercy in a predetermined game? Mercy is needed if snake eyes are rolled and God says, "Oh, what the heck, give the poor sucker a chance" and he changes the roll into a seven. But there is no leeway here. God determined a long time ago who is going the win the pot and who will be left destitute. Such nonsense does not reflect inerrancy. Come on, now. I said "win the pot" not smoke it.
One final passage calling into question that God is the authentic author of these 66 books written over about 1,000 years. We have heard a lot from religious fundamentalists about wanting The Ten Commandments plastered all over this country. For openers, if they really believe that these injunctions came from God himself then all these Bible thumping folks will have to come out strongly against the death penalty. Exodus 20:13, "You shall not murder."
No place does it say that State sanctioned murder is not murder. Now the Bible, as we have seen with Samuel and Agog, is full of killing and murder and mayhem done in God's name. But the Commandment says, "Don't." Our President said that Jesus is his philosopher. Yet, he loves the death penalty. Doesn't make sense, does it?
But the Sixth Commandment is not my main point. What for heaven's sake kind of a deity is it that would say something like this: "For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of the parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing mercy to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20: 5,6) Come on now! I don't even know who any of my 16 great-great-grandparents were. If one of them said, "Damn you God!" I am to be held liable for his apostasy! That would be a really neurotic God who holds his grudges that long.
By the same token, if a truly faithful person, 1000 generations from now has a descendent who is totally ungodly, totally evil, totally sinful God promises to be kind to him. Surely, Adolf, Joe (Stalin) and Benito must have had somebody 1000 generations ago who was a pretty God-fearing character. One thousand generations ago is about 20,000 years. In that period of time one has accumulated a lot of ancestors. According to Scripture, Adolf, Joe, and Benito go free.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Only if one checks one's brains in the narthex of the nearest church can one subscribe to the idea that Scripture is inerrant.
So, those of you who want to save my soul and those of others, start reading the Bible with your brains intact.
If you really believe the Scriptures you would learn that one is to "love the Lord with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30, Matthew 22:37 and Luke 10:27 and sundry other passages in the Old Testament.)
'God' Ordained Holocausts
Is [the Hebrew] God Just?
by Karim Reyes
In the Old Testament, God orders the massacre of entire nations, tribes and peoples. Some examples are the slaughter of the Amelakites, the Canaanites, the Midianites and the Gibeonites, including their women and children. The common explanation for this barbaric behavior is to make a distinction between god's love and god's justice. These nations were engaged in all sorts of immoral practices, including human sacrifice. God was simply using Israel as a tool to punish them.
It is true that in Deuteronomy 12:31 God expressly condemns pagan behavior, saying: "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they [the pagans] done unto the their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods". However, the Old Testament is far from consistent in this denunciation of human sacrifice. As we shall see, God's people were guilty of the same practice which they were supposedly punishing.
The commandments in Leviticus specifically deal with the method by which offerings and sacrifices should be made to the Lord. Leviticus 27:28-29 reads: "Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the Lord out of all that he has, of man or animal, or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the Lord. No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death".
In Exodus 22:29 God commands "thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give me". Clearly, taken together, these two statements mean that the firstborn children of Israel were to be sacrificed before the Lord and that they could not be redeemed.
But even if human sacrifice was written into the Law, was it ever actually performed? Ezekiel cries out that "[the Lord] also gave them [Israel] statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they [Israel] caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they may know that I am the Lord" (Ezekiel 20:26). So Israel did indeed pass their children through the fire. And for what reason? So that they would know that God is the Lord. In other words, God commanded these children be tortured and killed so that Israel would know who was in charge! Are these the actions of a loving God or a tyrannical dictator?
An example of a child sacrifice occurs in Judges 11:30-39. "Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon...and the Lord delivered them into his hands...And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances:...And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed". Notice the nonchalantness with which Jephthah concludes this grim business. It parallels the attitude of Christians who are unfluttered by the barbaric behavior of their God in the Old Testament.
In II Samuel 21:8-14 "the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah...and the five sons of Merab...and he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the mountain before the Lord, so that the seven of them fell together; and were put to death in the first days of harvest...And after that God was moved by entreaty for the land". When seven men are slaughtered in cold blood in order to appease God in hopes that he will end a famine, it can only be called human sacrifice.
A final example appears in Numbers 31:28 "Take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of animal...And levy a tax for the Lord from the men of war who went out to battle, one in five hundred persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep; take it from their half and give it to Eleazor the priest, as an offering to the Lord...And the human beings were 16,000, from whom the Lord's levy was 32 persons. And Moses gave the levy which was the Lord's offering to Eleazor the priest, just as the Lord had commanded Moses."
The fact of the matter is that as you read the Old Testament, Israel clearly acted in a manner as savage and immoral as any of their neighbors. They routinely massacred entire nations of men, women, and children (Js 10:10-39). They ripped open the wombs of pregnant women (2 Ki 15:16). They slaughtered suckling infants (1 Sa 15:3). And they spared only those beautiful women that they have the desire to "make their own", i.e. rape (Ge 34:13-29, Dt 20:13-14, Dt 21:10-13, Nu 31:31-40). They even took time out of their busy schedule to torture innocent horses by slicing open the tendons in their legs so that they will never be able to run again (Js 11:6, 2Sa 8:4). Now tell me, what justice do you see in that?
[The justice that can only be ordained by an ancient Jewish tribal deity, falsely identified as the Almighty God]
Is [the Hebrew] God Just?
by Karim Reyes
In the Old Testament, God orders the massacre of entire nations, tribes and peoples. Some examples are the slaughter of the Amelakites, the Canaanites, the Midianites and the Gibeonites, including their women and children. The common explanation for this barbaric behavior is to make a distinction between god's love and god's justice. These nations were engaged in all sorts of immoral practices, including human sacrifice. God was simply using Israel as a tool to punish them.
It is true that in Deuteronomy 12:31 God expressly condemns pagan behavior, saying: "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they [the pagans] done unto the their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods". However, the Old Testament is far from consistent in this denunciation of human sacrifice. As we shall see, God's people were guilty of the same practice which they were supposedly punishing.
The commandments in Leviticus specifically deal with the method by which offerings and sacrifices should be made to the Lord. Leviticus 27:28-29 reads: "Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the Lord out of all that he has, of man or animal, or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the Lord. No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death".
In Exodus 22:29 God commands "thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give me". Clearly, taken together, these two statements mean that the firstborn children of Israel were to be sacrificed before the Lord and that they could not be redeemed.
But even if human sacrifice was written into the Law, was it ever actually performed? Ezekiel cries out that "[the Lord] also gave them [Israel] statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they [Israel] caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they may know that I am the Lord" (Ezekiel 20:26). So Israel did indeed pass their children through the fire. And for what reason? So that they would know that God is the Lord. In other words, God commanded these children be tortured and killed so that Israel would know who was in charge! Are these the actions of a loving God or a tyrannical dictator?
An example of a child sacrifice occurs in Judges 11:30-39. "Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon...and the Lord delivered them into his hands...And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances:...And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed". Notice the nonchalantness with which Jephthah concludes this grim business. It parallels the attitude of Christians who are unfluttered by the barbaric behavior of their God in the Old Testament.
In II Samuel 21:8-14 "the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah...and the five sons of Merab...and he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the mountain before the Lord, so that the seven of them fell together; and were put to death in the first days of harvest...And after that God was moved by entreaty for the land". When seven men are slaughtered in cold blood in order to appease God in hopes that he will end a famine, it can only be called human sacrifice.
A final example appears in Numbers 31:28 "Take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of animal...And levy a tax for the Lord from the men of war who went out to battle, one in five hundred persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep; take it from their half and give it to Eleazor the priest, as an offering to the Lord...And the human beings were 16,000, from whom the Lord's levy was 32 persons. And Moses gave the levy which was the Lord's offering to Eleazor the priest, just as the Lord had commanded Moses."
The fact of the matter is that as you read the Old Testament, Israel clearly acted in a manner as savage and immoral as any of their neighbors. They routinely massacred entire nations of men, women, and children (Js 10:10-39). They ripped open the wombs of pregnant women (2 Ki 15:16). They slaughtered suckling infants (1 Sa 15:3). And they spared only those beautiful women that they have the desire to "make their own", i.e. rape (Ge 34:13-29, Dt 20:13-14, Dt 21:10-13, Nu 31:31-40). They even took time out of their busy schedule to torture innocent horses by slicing open the tendons in their legs so that they will never be able to run again (Js 11:6, 2Sa 8:4). Now tell me, what justice do you see in that?
[The justice that can only be ordained by an ancient Jewish tribal deity, falsely identified as the Almighty God]
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so__so_scandalous
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theDunamis
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EXCELLENT!!!so__so_scandalous wrote:Rossike I haven't read through the articles but I can assure you that the best way to free oneself of the clutter of contradictory information out there about God and His nature is to surrender one's life to Him as instructed by Jesus. Then will the true nature of God be fully revealed.
theDunamis is signed, sealed, DELIVERED!
Are you referring to the Bible as comprising a 'clutter of contradictory information'? Cos if you are, what can I say, welcome to the club!so__so_scandalous wrote:Rossike I haven't read through the articles but I can assure you that the best way to free oneself of the clutter of contradictory information out there about God and His nature is to surrender one's life to Him as instructed by Jesus. Then will the true nature of God be fully revealed.
And since you've apparently followed Jesus' instructions and surrendered your life to Him, thereby learning the true nature of God, you no doubt will agree with me that that true nature of God is completely at variance with the violent, vengeful monster presented as 'God' in the Old testament wouldn't you?
The strange Old testament God (sorry, Jewish tribal god)
"He envied Adam that he should eat from the tree of knowledge.
And the fact that he said "Adam, where are you?" shows that he did not have foreknowledge.
He cast man out of the garden because he did not want him to eat from the tree of life and live forever.
He said "I am a jealous God, I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children for three or four generations" [Exod. 20:5]
And he said "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said" [Isa. 6:10]
And all this mind you to those who believe in him and serve him!"
[John Dart, The Laughing Savior, p.63]
"He envied Adam that he should eat from the tree of knowledge.
And the fact that he said "Adam, where are you?" shows that he did not have foreknowledge.
He cast man out of the garden because he did not want him to eat from the tree of life and live forever.
He said "I am a jealous God, I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children for three or four generations" [Exod. 20:5]
And he said "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said" [Isa. 6:10]
And all this mind you to those who believe in him and serve him!"
[John Dart, The Laughing Savior, p.63]
The strange Old testament God (sorry, Jewish tribal god)
"He envied Adam that he should eat from the tree of knowledge.
And the fact that he said "Adam, where are you?" shows that he did not have foreknowledge.
He cast man out of the garden because he did not want him to eat from the tree of life and live forever.
He said "I am a jealous God, I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children for three or four generations" [Exod. 20:5]
And he said "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said" [Isa. 6:10]
And all this mind you to those who believe in him and serve him!"
[John Dart, The Laughing Savior, p.63]
"He envied Adam that he should eat from the tree of knowledge.
And the fact that he said "Adam, where are you?" shows that he did not have foreknowledge.
He cast man out of the garden because he did not want him to eat from the tree of life and live forever.
He said "I am a jealous God, I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children for three or four generations" [Exod. 20:5]
And he said "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said" [Isa. 6:10]
And all this mind you to those who believe in him and serve him!"
[John Dart, The Laughing Savior, p.63]
IT'S MORNING IN THE 'GARDEN OF EDEN' near where man was said to have been created, not in Africa, mind you, where archaeologists have found the oldest human remains, but in Jew country.
THEN, SUDDENLY, A monumental disaster! A talking snake, described as "more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made," comes to the woman and says, "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
And the woman said unto the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it lest ye die." And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
And now the denouement. Later, they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, "Where art thou?" And he said, "I heard thy voice in the Garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."
And he said, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
And the man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree and I did eat."
And the Lord God said unto the woman, "What is this that thou hast done?" And the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."
Whereupon Yahweh lays a curse on the serpent, the man, and the woman, fashions clothing for the man and woman from the skins of animals, and, lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live forever, banishes them from the garden, cursing the soil of all the earth and informing the man that he will subsist by the sweat of his brow until he returns to the dust from which he was formed.
He then posts cherubims at the east of the Garden of Eden and a flaming sword which turned every way to guard the way to the Tree of Life.
AS IS OBVIOUS, THE stories are fables, attempts to explain how the world and its various life forms came into being and why life is imperfect. But, juvenile and contradictory as these folk tales are, they have remained the grounds of Christian theology across the centuries. They purport to explain man's existence and his sinfulness, nature's variety and its jeopardies, and all suffering and death.
But surely no contemporary man or woman can continue to hold to a world view based on these ancient and primitive folk tales. They may have sufficed for a people living in a time when men and women knew nothing of the cosmos and little about the laws that govern it and needed for their peace of mind plausible explanations for the mysteries of life and death, nature's bounty and its frequent jeopardy, and the ten thousand imponderables that are a part of life.
Surely it is a negation of human experience and intellectual and scientific progress to cling to the archaic and untenable notion that the universe and our lives are the creation of and in the control of a primitive tribal deity, a male chauvinist much given to anger, intolerance, and fits of pique when crossed.
Moreover, if Old testament God is, as the Christian church teaches, omniscient, if he exists apart from time and knows the future, would he not know before he created the world that the experiment would end in disaster?
The question then becomes: if he knows the end from the beginning, why go through the exercise? If his goal was to create an intelligent species and set it down in a paradise, why would he load the dice against his new creatures by creating a wily talking snake, which was, the Genesis story says, "more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made"?
Unless the deity is Machiavellian or obtuse, none of this makes sense.
Equally incredible is the fact that, having created the man and the woman, 'God' forbids them to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, being fully aware, as he presumably would be, that should they do so they would acquire the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and, in this respect, "be as the gods." How naive of the omniscient deity not to know that, given the opportunity, they would seize it. Surely the ability to discriminate between options is a desirable trait and one to be coveted?
If God is omniscient, would he not know that giving the man and the woman the ability to think but not to reason made them little different from the animals? So why trouble to create them?
The assertion by the serpent that God wanted to withhold from Adam and Eve the power to reason because he knew that with it they would be like the gods suggests that the serpent already had the ability to reason. Quite clearly he knew the difference between right and wrong and was out to frustrate God's purposes.
Furthermore, if God has a need to be worshipped, and across the centuries he has insisted on it - on pain of eternal death! - he is not going to satisfy the need by creating a man and a woman incapable of choice. If they have no choice but to worship the Creator, what satisfaction could there be for God in that? Worship from a fawning automaton would not be worth having. For worship to have value it must proceed from a creature who has the ability to withhold it and then chooses to offer it. Without the ability to make rational choices a man is not a man, he is one of the lesser creatures - and God had already created enough of them.
And what is this consuming need the God of the Bible has to be worshipped, to be everlastingly praised and assured that he is the Great One, the most deserving of adoration and praise? Today such a condition would be diagnosed as pathological.
NOTE THAT, IN THE Genesis account, the Creator is utterly unlike the omniscient and loving God of Christian theology:
He is inept: His master plan for an Edenic paradise goes awry from the beginning.
He lacks foresight: His original intention was that Adam mate with one of the animals; the woman was an afterthought.
He is unjust: He curses not only the man and woman but all their unborn descendants for what was inevitable given the nature he himself had created in them.
He is vindictive: He tells the woman, "Because of what you have done, I will make child-bearing painful for you. And, to ensure your punishment, I will cause you to lust for your husband."
He is gender-biased: He tells the woman that her role will be one of subservience to her husband. "He will lord it over you."
He is not omniscient: Out for an evening stroll in the garden, he seems to have no idea where the first man and woman are hiding and has to ask where they are and what they have been up to.
He is subject to fatigue: The Sabbath was instituted because, as the Genesis record specifies: "God rested on the seventh day after all the work he had been doing."
BEFORE CONCLUDING THIS segment, let us look again at the nature of what the Christian church calls "original sin" - Adam's sin.
God creates Eden and in this paradise he places various creatures, among them a man and a woman. The humans differ from the animals in that they have been invested with the ability to reason - to deliberate and to make choices. Despite this, however, the man is forbidden on pain of eternal death to eat from a tree in the Garden of Eden because it bears "the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil."
But what could possibly be wrong in wanting to know the difference between good and evil?
And why, if God didn't want Adam to know the difference between good and evil, did he give him the ability to reason? The distinguishing difference between men and animals is man's ability to weigh the various options in a given set of circumstances and make a rational decision. Moreover, if one doesn't know the difference between good and evil, how does one distinguish between what is good and what is evil?
And beyond all this, why would God give Adam the power to choose when, being omniscient, he would know before doing so how Adam would react when tempted?
NONE OF IT MAKES SENSE.
Except if one realises that the Jewish God of the Old testament was simply one of thousands of regional, tribal gods from across the world, whom all shared human qualities of anger, hatred, revenge, bloodlust, and jealousy, among other recognisably human traits.
THEN, SUDDENLY, A monumental disaster! A talking snake, described as "more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made," comes to the woman and says, "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
And the woman said unto the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it lest ye die." And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
And now the denouement. Later, they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, "Where art thou?" And he said, "I heard thy voice in the Garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."
And he said, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
And the man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree and I did eat."
And the Lord God said unto the woman, "What is this that thou hast done?" And the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."
Whereupon Yahweh lays a curse on the serpent, the man, and the woman, fashions clothing for the man and woman from the skins of animals, and, lest they eat of the Tree of Life and live forever, banishes them from the garden, cursing the soil of all the earth and informing the man that he will subsist by the sweat of his brow until he returns to the dust from which he was formed.
He then posts cherubims at the east of the Garden of Eden and a flaming sword which turned every way to guard the way to the Tree of Life.
AS IS OBVIOUS, THE stories are fables, attempts to explain how the world and its various life forms came into being and why life is imperfect. But, juvenile and contradictory as these folk tales are, they have remained the grounds of Christian theology across the centuries. They purport to explain man's existence and his sinfulness, nature's variety and its jeopardies, and all suffering and death.
But surely no contemporary man or woman can continue to hold to a world view based on these ancient and primitive folk tales. They may have sufficed for a people living in a time when men and women knew nothing of the cosmos and little about the laws that govern it and needed for their peace of mind plausible explanations for the mysteries of life and death, nature's bounty and its frequent jeopardy, and the ten thousand imponderables that are a part of life.
Surely it is a negation of human experience and intellectual and scientific progress to cling to the archaic and untenable notion that the universe and our lives are the creation of and in the control of a primitive tribal deity, a male chauvinist much given to anger, intolerance, and fits of pique when crossed.
Moreover, if Old testament God is, as the Christian church teaches, omniscient, if he exists apart from time and knows the future, would he not know before he created the world that the experiment would end in disaster?
The question then becomes: if he knows the end from the beginning, why go through the exercise? If his goal was to create an intelligent species and set it down in a paradise, why would he load the dice against his new creatures by creating a wily talking snake, which was, the Genesis story says, "more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made"?
Unless the deity is Machiavellian or obtuse, none of this makes sense.
Equally incredible is the fact that, having created the man and the woman, 'God' forbids them to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, being fully aware, as he presumably would be, that should they do so they would acquire the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and, in this respect, "be as the gods." How naive of the omniscient deity not to know that, given the opportunity, they would seize it. Surely the ability to discriminate between options is a desirable trait and one to be coveted?
If God is omniscient, would he not know that giving the man and the woman the ability to think but not to reason made them little different from the animals? So why trouble to create them?
The assertion by the serpent that God wanted to withhold from Adam and Eve the power to reason because he knew that with it they would be like the gods suggests that the serpent already had the ability to reason. Quite clearly he knew the difference between right and wrong and was out to frustrate God's purposes.
Furthermore, if God has a need to be worshipped, and across the centuries he has insisted on it - on pain of eternal death! - he is not going to satisfy the need by creating a man and a woman incapable of choice. If they have no choice but to worship the Creator, what satisfaction could there be for God in that? Worship from a fawning automaton would not be worth having. For worship to have value it must proceed from a creature who has the ability to withhold it and then chooses to offer it. Without the ability to make rational choices a man is not a man, he is one of the lesser creatures - and God had already created enough of them.
And what is this consuming need the God of the Bible has to be worshipped, to be everlastingly praised and assured that he is the Great One, the most deserving of adoration and praise? Today such a condition would be diagnosed as pathological.
NOTE THAT, IN THE Genesis account, the Creator is utterly unlike the omniscient and loving God of Christian theology:
He is inept: His master plan for an Edenic paradise goes awry from the beginning.
He lacks foresight: His original intention was that Adam mate with one of the animals; the woman was an afterthought.
He is unjust: He curses not only the man and woman but all their unborn descendants for what was inevitable given the nature he himself had created in them.
He is vindictive: He tells the woman, "Because of what you have done, I will make child-bearing painful for you. And, to ensure your punishment, I will cause you to lust for your husband."
He is gender-biased: He tells the woman that her role will be one of subservience to her husband. "He will lord it over you."
He is not omniscient: Out for an evening stroll in the garden, he seems to have no idea where the first man and woman are hiding and has to ask where they are and what they have been up to.
He is subject to fatigue: The Sabbath was instituted because, as the Genesis record specifies: "God rested on the seventh day after all the work he had been doing."
BEFORE CONCLUDING THIS segment, let us look again at the nature of what the Christian church calls "original sin" - Adam's sin.
God creates Eden and in this paradise he places various creatures, among them a man and a woman. The humans differ from the animals in that they have been invested with the ability to reason - to deliberate and to make choices. Despite this, however, the man is forbidden on pain of eternal death to eat from a tree in the Garden of Eden because it bears "the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil."
But what could possibly be wrong in wanting to know the difference between good and evil?
And why, if God didn't want Adam to know the difference between good and evil, did he give him the ability to reason? The distinguishing difference between men and animals is man's ability to weigh the various options in a given set of circumstances and make a rational decision. Moreover, if one doesn't know the difference between good and evil, how does one distinguish between what is good and what is evil?
And beyond all this, why would God give Adam the power to choose when, being omniscient, he would know before doing so how Adam would react when tempted?
NONE OF IT MAKES SENSE.
Except if one realises that the Jewish God of the Old testament was simply one of thousands of regional, tribal gods from across the world, whom all shared human qualities of anger, hatred, revenge, bloodlust, and jealousy, among other recognisably human traits.
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peppersoup
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Rossike:
I am not holding brief for God..cos he has done that over that ages but I think the writer of the article you pushing here as the gospel truth is either just too dumb to understand that quoting things out of context is next step to falsehood.
If you think that the most widely read book in the world is too defective why don't you come up with another of your own. I can only laugh when I read all what this guy wrote here...it is more of a disgust and pity for the guy that anger. I don't even know how to start to start disproving all his nonsense... It is a lost cause
The question I always ask people that write stuff like this is have u taken time to read the bible in and out? Make your own conclusions and not just other people's sometimes myopic view of it. He has every right to his view about the bible, no doubt about that. Even the bible says seek for Knowledge and hold on to the one that is true -I bet he all he wrote as the "truth".
Uncle Rossike, Why don't you read the book and lets see what your "own truth"? Abi u be like some people here wey never see a match and do their analysis based on MATCH report? Even the match we we dey see here people come to write all kind of stuff on it - u will be wondering if it were the same game you saw too. So if someone thinks he is so smart and he just did a summary of close to a thousand page of a book in 2 pages and call that the gospel truth....he/she needs to be pitied
I am not holding brief for God..cos he has done that over that ages but I think the writer of the article you pushing here as the gospel truth is either just too dumb to understand that quoting things out of context is next step to falsehood.
If you think that the most widely read book in the world is too defective why don't you come up with another of your own. I can only laugh when I read all what this guy wrote here...it is more of a disgust and pity for the guy that anger. I don't even know how to start to start disproving all his nonsense... It is a lost cause
The question I always ask people that write stuff like this is have u taken time to read the bible in and out? Make your own conclusions and not just other people's sometimes myopic view of it. He has every right to his view about the bible, no doubt about that. Even the bible says seek for Knowledge and hold on to the one that is true -I bet he all he wrote as the "truth".
Uncle Rossike, Why don't you read the book and lets see what your "own truth"? Abi u be like some people here wey never see a match and do their analysis based on MATCH report? Even the match we we dey see here people come to write all kind of stuff on it - u will be wondering if it were the same game you saw too. So if someone thinks he is so smart and he just did a summary of close to a thousand page of a book in 2 pages and call that the gospel truth....he/she needs to be pitied
I read the article. You know last week my elder brother who is a doctor called me up and was talking about God and the bible. He raised similar points are you did and i adviced him to stop trying to figure out the bible and just focus on his patients. LOL.
I agree with his points and the points in the article; however, you have to agree that there a God on this earth and there is also a devil on this earth. No matter how distorted the bible may appear to be, the supernatural and spiritual realms exist.
Why does juju work? why does someone pray and gets healed. why do people have premonitions, how do people see things in the past and future. how to people give prophecies that come to pass?
When I read my bible or listen to the pastor preach, I try to take out the positive message. you cannot understand everything and its ok not to understand everything. why is 1+1=2? its because we were told that. what of if 1~3, then 1+1=6.
I believe in God not because of what I read in the bible, but because of miracles God has performed in my life. God proved to me his existence via actions, not just by his word in the bible. I don't have the time to be worrying about what God did in the bible or questioning it. Is worrying or questioning going to pay my rent, feed me? No.
At the end of your first post, you said that those who want to save your soul and those of others should start reading the bible with an intact brain. Well get this and get it right okay. you have read the bible, read more into it, yet you have not being given the faith by God to truly believe in him and his word. You are responsible for your soul because you have been exposed to the word of God. Only you will bear the burden of your soul. In order for you to save your own soul, you have to call onto God and ask him to give you the faith to trust in him and his word. I personally pray more than I read my bible. I hate history and reading it is boring. But when I pray, God answers me with physical evidence.
So you determine the outcome of your soul, not other people. stop trying to shift blame. take responsibility for your soul.
I agree with his points and the points in the article; however, you have to agree that there a God on this earth and there is also a devil on this earth. No matter how distorted the bible may appear to be, the supernatural and spiritual realms exist.
Why does juju work? why does someone pray and gets healed. why do people have premonitions, how do people see things in the past and future. how to people give prophecies that come to pass?
When I read my bible or listen to the pastor preach, I try to take out the positive message. you cannot understand everything and its ok not to understand everything. why is 1+1=2? its because we were told that. what of if 1~3, then 1+1=6.
I believe in God not because of what I read in the bible, but because of miracles God has performed in my life. God proved to me his existence via actions, not just by his word in the bible. I don't have the time to be worrying about what God did in the bible or questioning it. Is worrying or questioning going to pay my rent, feed me? No.
At the end of your first post, you said that those who want to save your soul and those of others should start reading the bible with an intact brain. Well get this and get it right okay. you have read the bible, read more into it, yet you have not being given the faith by God to truly believe in him and his word. You are responsible for your soul because you have been exposed to the word of God. Only you will bear the burden of your soul. In order for you to save your own soul, you have to call onto God and ask him to give you the faith to trust in him and his word. I personally pray more than I read my bible. I hate history and reading it is boring. But when I pray, God answers me with physical evidence.
So you determine the outcome of your soul, not other people. stop trying to shift blame. take responsibility for your soul.
Hang on a minute. I'm not saying that God does not exist.
I KNOW the Almighty God, the source of LOVE, tbe source of ALL THAT IS, is in eternal existence. More than that, I believe that as spirit extensions of God, temporarily occupying earthly bodies, ALL of creation is part of God, just as a drop of water is part of an ocean.
WHAT I QUESTION is this arrogation to Jews in the North East (for Africa), (Middle East to Europe) of some sort of 'Chosen People' status whereby THEY TELL US who God is, what he did, when, why and how.
When for all we know, they could be referring to their ancient tribal god Yahweh, NOT the Almighty God.
I REFUSE TO BELIEVE that the God of LOVE goes about slaughtering whole populations and demanding parents sacrifice their children to him.
These traits are more in line with those of the deities we've been brainwashed to disregard, including our own traditional deities.
(indeed, certain actions of the Old Testament Yahweh would be an insult to the integrity of many ancient Nigerian deities)
The main thing that drives all you 'dissenters' is FEAR.
You FEAR to question the Bible.
You FEAR to sit down, think through the issues raised and reach a determined aonclusion using your intellect.
FEAR.
You FEAR you would get on the wrong side of God if you use your own GOD-GIVEN mind to analyse things objectively.
My advice to you is this.
You need not fear God.
Seeking God does not mean closing your eyes and ears to information designed to make you THINK.
Information different from what you've previously acquired.
THE TRUE GOD IS A GOD OF LOVE.
HE WILL NEVER PUNISH YOU FOR SEEKING THE ULTIMATE TRUTH OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART.
Before the Jews 'taught' us about God, WE KNEW GOD.
Before the first white man set foot in Africa, EVERY AFRICAN KNEW THERE WAS GOD.
Traditional African religion viewed God as omniscient, omnipresent, infallible, peerlessly powerful, and yet, detached from man's escapades on earth.
We also believed that God created lesser 'gods' - powerful deities that had a more 'hands on' role in earthly affairs.
This basic belief of God's place in existence is shared by traditional religions all over the world, whom ALL recognised that there was GOD and they were 'gods'.
MY CONTENTION and that of many others is that the god of the Old testament is NOT GOD, but rather, one of the lesser gods, as it shares the same characteristics and behavioural modes of many of these lesser gods.
Equally incredible is the fact that, having created the man and the woman, 'God' forbids them to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, being fully aware, as he presumably would be, that should they do so they would acquire the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and, in this respect, "be as the gods." How naive of the omniscient deity not to know that, given the opportunity, they would seize it. Surely the ability to discriminate between options is a desirable trait and one to be coveted?
I KNOW the Almighty God, the source of LOVE, tbe source of ALL THAT IS, is in eternal existence. More than that, I believe that as spirit extensions of God, temporarily occupying earthly bodies, ALL of creation is part of God, just as a drop of water is part of an ocean.
WHAT I QUESTION is this arrogation to Jews in the North East (for Africa), (Middle East to Europe) of some sort of 'Chosen People' status whereby THEY TELL US who God is, what he did, when, why and how.
When for all we know, they could be referring to their ancient tribal god Yahweh, NOT the Almighty God.
I REFUSE TO BELIEVE that the God of LOVE goes about slaughtering whole populations and demanding parents sacrifice their children to him.
These traits are more in line with those of the deities we've been brainwashed to disregard, including our own traditional deities.
(indeed, certain actions of the Old Testament Yahweh would be an insult to the integrity of many ancient Nigerian deities)
The main thing that drives all you 'dissenters' is FEAR.
You FEAR to question the Bible.
You FEAR to sit down, think through the issues raised and reach a determined aonclusion using your intellect.
FEAR.
You FEAR you would get on the wrong side of God if you use your own GOD-GIVEN mind to analyse things objectively.
My advice to you is this.
You need not fear God.
Seeking God does not mean closing your eyes and ears to information designed to make you THINK.
Information different from what you've previously acquired.
THE TRUE GOD IS A GOD OF LOVE.
HE WILL NEVER PUNISH YOU FOR SEEKING THE ULTIMATE TRUTH OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART.
Before the Jews 'taught' us about God, WE KNEW GOD.
Before the first white man set foot in Africa, EVERY AFRICAN KNEW THERE WAS GOD.
Traditional African religion viewed God as omniscient, omnipresent, infallible, peerlessly powerful, and yet, detached from man's escapades on earth.
We also believed that God created lesser 'gods' - powerful deities that had a more 'hands on' role in earthly affairs.
This basic belief of God's place in existence is shared by traditional religions all over the world, whom ALL recognised that there was GOD and they were 'gods'.
MY CONTENTION and that of many others is that the god of the Old testament is NOT GOD, but rather, one of the lesser gods, as it shares the same characteristics and behavioural modes of many of these lesser gods.
Equally incredible is the fact that, having created the man and the woman, 'God' forbids them to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, being fully aware, as he presumably would be, that should they do so they would acquire the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and, in this respect, "be as the gods." How naive of the omniscient deity not to know that, given the opportunity, they would seize it. Surely the ability to discriminate between options is a desirable trait and one to be coveted?
EVEN EZEKIEL HAD MORE CLASS THAN YAHWEH
Ezekiel cries out that "[the Lord] also gave them [Israel] statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they [Israel] caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they may know that I am the Lord" (Ezekiel 20:26). So Israel did indeed pass their children through the fire. And for what reason? So that they would know that God is the Lord. In other words, God commanded these children be tortured and killed so that Israel would know who was in charge! Are these the actions of a loving God or a tyrannical dictator?
Ezekiel cries out that "[the Lord] also gave them [Israel] statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they [Israel] caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they may know that I am the Lord" (Ezekiel 20:26). So Israel did indeed pass their children through the fire. And for what reason? So that they would know that God is the Lord. In other words, God commanded these children be tortured and killed so that Israel would know who was in charge! Are these the actions of a loving God or a tyrannical dictator?
Rossike,ROSSIKE wrote:EVEN EZEKIEL HAD MORE CLASS THAN YAHWEH
Ezekiel cries out that "[the Lord] also gave them [Israel] statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they [Israel] caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they may know that I am the Lord" (Ezekiel 20:26). So Israel did indeed pass their children through the fire. And for what reason? So that they would know that God is the Lord. In other words, God commanded these children be tortured and killed so that Israel would know who was in charge! Are these the actions of a loving God or a tyrannical dictator?
I admire the fact that you need to understand something before you start to follow.
A lot of this questions I have asked before but I have no time to tackle each of your points.
But one that sticks to mind is the ordering of the killing of the Amalekites by God.
You need to understand the amalekites as defined by the bible they were a very wicked group that were actually also involved in baby sacrificing. They had also been given a chance to repent because of what Saul did they later came ack to haunt the people of Isreal it didnt happen during Sauls life time but it happened when David became King.
God is all knowing and All seeing whatever he says is always for the greater good of all.
Take a look at Abraham after God promised his a child and he had Ishnael. God blessed Ishmael as well as Isaac well the words that was spoken then concerning Ishmael that he will be blessed but he will always fight with everybody and the hands of everybody will be against him.
Well that is the middle east today. If Abraham had waited for Isaac there will be no middle east crisis today.
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peppersoup
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Rossike:
I can tell you that the Bible is the most criticized book in history and for it to have stand the test of time. Even the bible advise you should test all truth and hold on to the one that is true. I don't know how you got into your FEAR conclusions!
I can tell you that the Bible is the most criticized book in history and for it to have stand the test of time. Even the bible advise you should test all truth and hold on to the one that is true. I don't know how you got into your FEAR conclusions!
"His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular."
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Molue Conductor
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you are trying to hard, if u will treat God like he is a man that u will miss road, example...ROSSIKE wrote:The strange Old testament God (sorry, Jewish tribal god)
"He envied Adam that he should eat from the tree of knowledge.
And the fact that he said "Adam, where are you?" shows that he did not have foreknowledge.
He cast man out of the garden because he did not want him to eat from the tree of life and live forever.
He said "I am a jealous God, I will bring the sins of the fathers upon the children for three or four generations" [Exod. 20:5]
And he said "I will make their heart thick, and I will cause their mind to become blind, that they might not know nor comprehend the things that are said" [Isa. 6:10]
And all this mind you to those who believe in him and serve him!"
[John Dart, The Laughing Savior, p.63]
God to Cain, Where is you brother?
so did God know where Abel was and what prefect timing that he would ask at the right time.
To understand the wole bible u have to read everything and be Guided by the Holy spirit. The wages of Sin is Death and the GIFT of God is eternal life. Everything we Get is a gift, so don't complain about the bad things that happen because that is our fault, we sinned
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Oyibo na Oyibo
Oyibo na Oyibo
What I don't understand is the image of Jesus Christ. Why does Christ have blonde hair and blue eyes? Who took those pictures anyway. Camera didn't exist way back in biblical period. Today, you see portraits of Christ in modern day colored picture of a blonde hair blue eyed white man. I don't know much about these, could someone educate me? Is someone lying to use here?
Nigeria shall wallop the dormitable lions
Rossike, pls don't let me insult ur #$% ok.
Who is afraid of questioning God? I have better things to do with my time than question God and the bible. if i recieved money for questioning God and the bible, I will question like there is no tomorrow. since there is no benefit, i can't be bothered.
pls go see a psychiatrist or get deliverance
Who is afraid of questioning God? I have better things to do with my time than question God and the bible. if i recieved money for questioning God and the bible, I will question like there is no tomorrow. since there is no benefit, i can't be bothered.
pls go see a psychiatrist or get deliverance
Yes.... u try too hard Rossike...... Have we seen God?.... No... but yet we believe in him.. Why? those things are beyond human comprehension.... Heb 11:1 says "Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" KJV
Can u honestly say that all these ur theories/evidence has completely enlightened you about these issues.... i believe they leave u in a more comfused state, thus ur desire to keep seeking......
My prayer for you is that you will indeed stop seeking and find very soon....
Heb 11:6 says "But without faith, it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" KJV
Also read Romans 11.... vs 33 says " O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his jugements, and his ways past finding out.....KJV
vs 36 says "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen......KJV
Also, i'll be praying for you Rossike.......
Can u honestly say that all these ur theories/evidence has completely enlightened you about these issues.... i believe they leave u in a more comfused state, thus ur desire to keep seeking......
My prayer for you is that you will indeed stop seeking and find very soon....
Heb 11:6 says "But without faith, it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" KJV
Also read Romans 11.... vs 33 says " O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his jugements, and his ways past finding out.....KJV
vs 36 says "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen......KJV
Also, i'll be praying for you Rossike.......
God is good to me and all who love and follow him.. Amazingly, he's also loving to all those who dont know him. What a mighty God he is!
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Thought
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Thats a very apt statement.AquinasCollege wrote:Rossike:
I can tell you that the Bible is the most criticized book in history and for it to have stand the test of time. Even the bible advise you should test all truth and hold on to the one that is true. I don't know how you got into your FEAR conclusions!
Real Madrid - The Greatest Club on Earth!
Rossike,
Your post here is a little dissappointing. But then, I guess it's to be expected. You're the one who posted the "we don't exist" thread - in which you pointed out that we are more of spiritual beings than physical beings. If that is true, then the bible would contain elements of both realities - physical and spiritual - for the simple reason that is from a spiritual being to humanity.
People continue to struggle with the bible because they do not realize that the messages contained therein can be spiritual or physical. Sometimes, in one breath, issues addressed are both spiritual and physical - which means you can't gloss over them and jump to conclusions. When you just lump everything together - you end up with a bunch of fallacies.
If you need examples, I'll be more than happy to point some out
Your post here is a little dissappointing. But then, I guess it's to be expected. You're the one who posted the "we don't exist" thread - in which you pointed out that we are more of spiritual beings than physical beings. If that is true, then the bible would contain elements of both realities - physical and spiritual - for the simple reason that is from a spiritual being to humanity.
People continue to struggle with the bible because they do not realize that the messages contained therein can be spiritual or physical. Sometimes, in one breath, issues addressed are both spiritual and physical - which means you can't gloss over them and jump to conclusions. When you just lump everything together - you end up with a bunch of fallacies.
If you need examples, I'll be more than happy to point some out
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nanijoe
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Nneka,Why does juju work? why does someone pray and gets healed. why do people have premonitions, how do people see things in the past and future. how to people give prophecies that come to pass?
Do you have irrefutable evidence of any of the above? Everyone claims to know that juju works, but no one has ever personally sen it in action.
What about miracles, has anyone onthis board personally witnessed a Jesus type mircale? eg Blind seeing or Lame walking?
As far as prophecies, if I predict 5 things and 2 of them come to pass, am I a prophet?
Someone help my unbelief...