West is best—Bello-Osagie

odi · Post by **odi** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:57 pm

I hate this!

People like Taribo only behave themselves when they need the SE. He needs us far more than we need him.
He may still be strong and fit, but can he last the whole lenght of the ANC? When he comes up against young and strong African strikers, will he measure up?

I wish you guys wouldn't be so quick to applaud.

Post by **Waffiman** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:00 pm

Striker wrote:Every society should have some one who is not afraid to speak his mind. Those who are open minded will listen and then think about what is said. Taribo spoke his mind, probably been saying something to Onigbende privately at the time. This type of people (Taribo et al) gives you a different perspective at thing you thought was normal. Even here at the Forum, 1Naija does similar thing and that is why I like to read his post. Hey, "1 Naija, don't let this complement get into your head oh "

True dat striker, but 1Naija is responsible too. West for nor yab him team mates for public. That was irresponsible.

Ebyboy · Post by **Ebyboy** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:12 pm

I like what I am hearing but I will start celebrating when I see the difference his motivation makes on the field during the ANC.

Ayo Akinfe · Post by **Ayo Akinfe** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:13 pm

Lefak wrote:Are you advocating that the coach actually allow his "senior" players to choose his team?

Is this not one of the things that Amodu was castigated for?

Ayo Akinfe wrote:I can name at least five players who had no business whatsoever being in the 2002 World Cup squad. Taribo was right and Onigbinde was wrong not to listen to his senior players.

At least this is one area where I give CCC 10 out of 10. When JJ arrives in camp, you will see a great togetherness as the senior boys like JJ, Taribo, Yobo, Okoronkwo, Kanu, Babayaro and Aghahowa, will present joint positions to the coach.

Given that CCC is a humble man and good listener, I cannot see him dismissing whatever suggestion they put to him unless is it downright ludicrous. Those of you that know our young players, know they need a firm hand.

If I tell you the nonsense some of them get up to, you will be surprised.

With an indegenous coach who has not operated at the same level as the players, that is what happens. Do you really think they have any respect for Amodu, Onigbinde or CCC's opinion?

I can tell you now that the players go on to the pitch and do their own thing. If the senior players do not take the initiative as you are suggesting, the defeats will be gruesome.

Beleive you me, our senior players are discussing as we meet to finalise plans for how the team will operate in Tunisia. Amodu and CCC accept this reality, Onigbinde thought he was cleverer than he actually was and look at where it landed him.

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:10 pm

Ayo Akinfe wrote: With an indegenous coach who has not operated at the same level as the players, that is what happens. Do you really think they have any respect for Amodu, Onigbinde or CCC's opinion?

I can tell you now that the players go on to the pitch and do their own thing. If the senior players do not take the initiative as you are suggesting, the defeats will be gruesome.

Beleive you me, our senior players are discussing as we meet to finalise plans for how the team will operate in Tunisia. Amodu and CCC accept this reality, Onigbinde thought he was cleverer than he actually was and look at where it landed him.

AYO:
Listening to (or consulting with) one's senior players (or players in general) is one thing, but being dictated to (or being ignored) by one's players is an entirely different kettle of fish. The former is commendable and the latter is condemnable.

If Nigerian players actually tend "go on to the pitch and do their own thing," then Adegboye Onigbinde is the only indigenous coach that I would respect for not tolerating such professional mutiny -- but I suspect that the above is yet another one of your sweeping overgeneralizations.

Post by **Waffiman** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:19 pm

Ayo Akinfe wrote:
Lefak wrote:Are you advocating that the coach actually allow his "senior" players to choose his team?

Is this not one of the things that Amodu was castigated for?

Ayo Akinfe wrote:I can name at least five players who had no business whatsoever being in the 2002 World Cup squad. Taribo was right and Onigbinde was wrong not to listen to his senior players.

At least this is one area where I give CCC 10 out of 10. When JJ arrives in camp, you will see a great togetherness as the senior boys like JJ, Taribo, Yobo, Okoronkwo, Kanu, Babayaro and Aghahowa, will present joint positions to the coach.

Given that CCC is a humble man and good listener, I cannot see him dismissing whatever suggestion they put to him unless is it downright ludicrous. Those of you that know our young players, know they need a firm hand.

If I tell you the nonsense some of them get up to, you will be surprised.
With an indegenous coach who has not operated at the same level as the players, that is what happens. Do you really think they have any respect for Amodu, Onigbinde or CCC's opinion?

I can tell you now that the players go on to the pitch and do their own thing. If the senior players do not take the initiative as you are suggesting, the defeats will be gruesome.

Beleive you me, our senior players are discussing as we meet to finalise plans for how the team will operate in Tunisia. Amodu and CCC accept this reality, Onigbinde thought he was cleverer than he actually was and look at where it landed him.

Yes! Ayo, you are right as to the senior players input and the fact that the coaches (especially ICs have to listen because of a lack of up to date knowledge) have to respect their input. The problem comes when there is disagreement within the senior players.

As you know, the problem reared its ugly head in Mali when Papillo and Baba were benched for Agali and Udeze, it led to a split amongst the ranks. The consequencies of which is a problem till today.

Ayo Akinfe · Post by **Ayo Akinfe** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:33 pm

Gotti, I am in stitches here. Do you think that anyone did what Onigbinde told them to do in Japan/Korea? Man, you provide me with so much comic relief it is unreal.

Let me tell you just one more time. Oyer young players have no regard for ICs. Even after the coach gives them instructions, they run it by the likes of JJ, Kanu, Shorunmu, West etc to find out if it is still relevant to today's game.

You see, CCC will not run into the kind of problems other coaches have had because he has the humility to accept the reality of the world we live in. CCC knows that he has not played at the level the likes of JJ, Kanu, Yobo, Okoronkwo, Babayaro, etc have played at and unlike you, Gotti, does not believe that the coach knows best come what may.

Post by **Waffiman** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:38 pm

Ayo Akinfe wrote:Gotti, I am in stitches here. Do you think that anyone did what Onigbinde told them to do in Japan/Korea? Man, you provide me with so much comic relief it is unreal.

Let me tell you just one more time. Oyer young players have no regard for ICs. Even after the coach gives them instructions, they run it by the likes of JJ, Kanu, Shorunmu, West etc to find out if it is still relevant to today's game.

You see, CCC will not run into the kind of problems other coaches have had because he has the humility to accept the reality of the world we live in. CCC knows that he has not played at the level the likes of JJ, Kanu, Yobo, Okoronkwo, Babayaro, etc have played at and unlike you, Gotti, does not believe that the coach knows best come what may.

Kai! Ayo. I nor lie, but na true you talk oh. It pains me to say it, but our boys just make fun of them, that routine about defending corners still has me in stiches everytime I think about it.

You still neva answer the issue, what if they the senior players disagree. It is alright when you have one or two, the younger boys just listen to them and expect them to take the lead and give instructions, what if there are too many of them around?

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:48 pm

Ayo Akinfe wrote:Gotti, I am in stitches here. Do you think that anyone did what Onigbinde told them to do in Japan/Korea? Man, you provide me with so much comic relief it is unreal.

AYO:
And that was probably why he sat their ITKs arses down for the England game, which earns mad respect from here. The can only be ONE captain in a functional ship, and while one cannot always predict the actions of purported adults, one can always penalize them when they step out of line.

It is quite interesting that some folks herein laud the position of Ikhana for variously suspending the likes of Enyeama and Orjinta, but would simultaneously castigate Onigbinde for excluding players who so obviously did not want to play for him or according to his dictates.

Sometimes, one has to tolerate short-term loss for the longer-term goal of ORGANIZATIONAL discipline. Obeying the coach is not about obeying (or respecting) the instructions of Onigbinde, Amodu or Chukwu. That is a myopic way of looking at life in general. It is about respecting the position (and office) of the coach of the Nigerian national team.

__________________________________

PS: Ayo, I am reasonably confident that you will never directly disobey the orders of your English boss -- even if you believe that you actually know better than he does.

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:51 pm

Ayo Akinfe wrote:CCC knows that he has not played at the level the likes of JJ, Kanu, Yobo, Okoronkwo, Babayaro, etc have played at and unlike you, Gotti, does not believe that the coach knows best come what may.

AYO:
Can you please tell us the "level" that the likes of Sven Ericksson, Arsene Wenger, Gerald Houllier, Loius van Gaal, Klaus Topmoller, and even Alex Fegurson (who was a frustrated professional in his brief Rangers career) has played.

Ayo Akinfe · Post by **Ayo Akinfe** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:51 pm

Waffi, the only problem could be Ribo. Up ubtil the Venezuela game, everybody accepted that JJ was boss and no one ever disputed what he said.

They respected him and generally, he commanded their loyalty. In all fairness to JJ, he never abused this authority and always sought to take people along with him.

Never did he ride roughshod over the coach or order anyone about as if they were little kids. Even the likes of Kanu, Okoronkwo, Yobo etc were all happy to take ibnstructions from JJ.

Now if Ribo dares dispute JJ's authority, I will be in his case. That is the only place katakata can come from. Actually, Waffi, I know what I will do when I ring Faro later tonight.

Ayo Akinfe · Post by **Ayo Akinfe** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:01 pm

Gotti wrote:
Ayo Akinfe wrote:CCC knows that he has not played at the level the likes of JJ, Kanu, Yobo, Okoronkwo, Babayaro, etc have played at and unlike you, Gotti, does not believe that the coach knows best come what may.
AYO:
Can you please tell us the "level" that the likes of Sven Ericksson, Arsene Wenger, Gerald Houllier, Loius van Gaal, Klaus Topmoller, and even Alex Fegurson (who was a frustrated professional in his brief Rangers career) has played.

Gotti, all these guys have gone through proper orientations that involved going on coaching courses, attenmding technical seminars, studying technical details, paying attention to every minute development, keeping apace with changes as they happen and cutting their teeth in the coaching ranks.

Unfortunately, our indegenous coaches have no such orientation and it shows. Any Nigerian player will tell you rthat they learned more about the technoical aspects of the game in their first two months in Europe than they did in 10 years playing in Nigeria.

I cannot believe that you are holding fort for a lack of know-how. A lot of out players find ICs irritating with their limited know technical know-how.

PS. and by the way, I have fought big time with several bosses when I think they are talking nonsense. You shpould know me well enough to know that I will not carry out instructions if I know them to be destructive - irrespective of the consequences of my actions.

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:10 pm

AYO:
Disobeying and disrespecting coaches (or other constituted authority) has NOTHING to do with their technical knowledge (or lack thereof). That is simply a PERSONAL (and professional) shortcoming. There is a way to be OPINIATED without being disrespectful.

Post by **Waffiman** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:11 pm

Gotti wrote:
Ayo Akinfe wrote:CCC knows that he has not played at the level the likes of JJ, Kanu, Yobo, Okoronkwo, Babayaro, etc have played at and unlike you, Gotti, does not believe that the coach knows best come what may.
AYO:
Can you please tell us the "level" that the likes of Sven Ericksson, Arsene Wenger, Gerald Houllier, Loius van Gaal, Klaus Topmoller, and even Alex Fegurson (who was a frustrated professional in his brief Rangers career) has played.

They have all earned their spurs with a career that is impecable in terms of achievement. Our ICs cannot boast anything close to these guys in terms of achievement, so your comparism is not apt.

Besides, our players listened to them when they were in Naija but they have been exposed to better and more up to date ways of coaching so they know far better than any coach, (be it IC or FC) who is not up to the job.

All players question coaches decisions, it is up to the coach to explain why he has made such decisions. E.g. Bergkamp, 3 seasons questioned Arsene when he was dropped, his ego was so bruised, he did not even speak to Arsene for more than half the season, when he finally cooled down, he went to Arsene to seek an explanation. On receipt of this explanation, Bergkamp apologised to Arsene in a players team meeting.

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:15 pm

Waffiman wrote: They have all earned their spurs with a career that is impecable in terms of achievement. Our ICs cannot boast anything close to these guys in terms of achievement, so your comparism is not apt.

...and so you think that their players were disrespectful to them while they were still "earning their spurs"?! Do you think that Fulham players will be disrespectful to Chris Coleman as he "earns his spurs"?!

1naija · Post by **1naija** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:22 pm

Gotti wrote:
Waffiman wrote: They have all earned their spurs with a career that is impecable in terms of achievement. Our ICs cannot boast anything close to these guys in terms of achievement, so your comparism is not apt.
...and so you think that their players were disrespectful to them while they were still "earning their spurs"?! Do you think that Fulham players will be disrespectful to Chris Coleman as he "earns his spurs"?!

Gotti, those caches you mentioned respect themselves. Backstabber Onigbinde on the other hand, did not respect himself prior to and during the WC, so Taribo had every right to disrespect his commands, which were clearly archaic.

Ofoje2 · Post by **Ofoje2** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:22 pm

The honourable member of the bar taking care of biz.

Post by **Waffiman** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:25 pm

Gotti wrote:
Waffiman wrote: They have all earned their spurs with a career that is impecable in terms of achievement. Our ICs cannot boast anything close to these guys in terms of achievement, so your comparism is not apt.
...and so you think that their players were disrespectful to them while they were still "earning their spurs"?! Do you think that Fulham players will be disrespectful to Chris Coleman as he "earns his spurs"?!

Gotti, I am not in any way condoning such behaviour, as you may remember, I was scathing in my criticism of Ribo, when he tried to change team tactics during the Sweden game.

Moreover, I do accept our NFA are the first to undermine our coaches by placing them in very difficult positions as we saw during the Venezuela game.

But we must address this issue in our SE, it was a problem in Mali, my biggest fear is what happens when Jay Jay, Kanu etc. arrive in camp with the other senior players. Remember Ribo has been our of the SE picture and I really do not think it will be plain sailing when the time comes.

At least CCC is renowed for his straight talking which has bruised many a big man ego in camp when push comes to shove, I trust he will lay down the law in terms of seniority.

Ayo Akinfe · Post by **Ayo Akinfe** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:27 pm

Gotti wrote:
Waffiman wrote: They have all earned their spurs with a career that is impecable in terms of achievement. Our ICs cannot boast anything close to these guys in terms of achievement, so your comparism is not apt.
...and so you think that their players were disrespectful to them while they were still "earning their spurs"?! Do you think that Fulham players will be disrespectful to Chris Coleman as he "earns his spurs"?!

Gotti, please stop wrigling aroiund. The simple fact of the matter is that both the coaches and the players are aware of who is more knowledgable and they have foubnd a way to accomodate it.

Onh a more serious note, I have a problem with this your supreme regard for "constitude authority." So we understand each other properly, are you telling me that were you living in any of these eras, you would collude with the establishment, simply because they were the "constituted authority."?

(1) Aparthied
(2) Germany under the nazis
(3) Nigeria under Abacha
(4) The Taliban
(5) Saddam Hussein's Iraq
(6) Pinochet's Chile
(7) The Isreali occupation of Palestine
(8) Idi Amin's Uganda
(9) Spain under Franco
(10) Italy under Mussolini

If the answer is yes, I can only assume that you are a status quo, authority, establishment and government kind of man. Hmmmmmm.

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:34 pm

Ayo Akinfe wrote:Onh a more serious note, I have a problem with this your supreme regard for "constitude authority." So we understand each other properly, are you telling me that were you living in any of these eras, you would collude with the establishment, simply because they were the "constituted authority."?

(1) Aparthied
(2) Germany under the nazis
(3) Nigeria under Abacha
(4) The Taliban
(5) Saddam Hussein's Iraq
(6) Pinochet's Chile
(7) The Isreali occupation of Palestine
(8) Idi Amin's Uganda
(9) Spain under Franco
(10) Italy under Mussolini

If the answer is yes, I can only assume that you are a status quo, authority, establishment and government kind of man. Hmmmmmm.

AYO:
With all DUE respect (and very little is "due" to you at this point), please stop comparing crimes against humanity with the instructions of a football coach. Do you have no concept of perspective -- or indeed of propriety?!

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:36 pm

And obviously, you do not understand what the term "CONSTITUTED authority" actually means. I would suggest that you consult you dictionary -- or constitution!

Gotti · Post by **Gotti** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:43 pm

1naija wrote: Gotti, those caches you mentioned respect themselves. Backstabber Onigbinde on the other hand, did not respect himself prior to and during the WC, so Taribo had every right to disrespect his commands, which were clearly archaic.

1NAIJA:
Actually, I give Taribo kudos for doing the honorable thing and removing himself from that situation through his "retirement".

The notion that every member of a joint enterprise who thinks that he knows better should go off and do their own thing is INCREDULOUS to say the least. It simply makes no sense.

geminikoat · Post by **geminikoat** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:48 pm

Ziontrain wrote:He didn't lie. They WERE junk - the worst and most haphazardly created squad we have ever sent to a major tounament in modern times. All Taribo did was to call a spad a spade.

Spot on! He called a spad a spade! He called good players junk!