West is best—Bello-Osagie

[Waffiman]

He didn't lie. They WERE junk - the worst and most haphazardly created squad we have ever sent to a major tounament in modern times. All Taribo did was to call a spad a spade.

Spot on! He called a spad a spade! He called good players junk!

This is not the point. It is wrong to yab your team mates in front of the world media, irrespective of what you think about their talent.

[Ayo Akinfe]

Gotti, Germany's constitution gave Hitler full authority as the Chancellor. He got all his nasty mesures approved by parliament, likewise Saddam Hussein.

Please stop trying to twist words. The principle is still the same irrespective pof the circumstance, even if there is a difference of magnitude.

[txj]

Gotti
Nigerian players since experiencing European football, have routinely structured the SE when under a local coach. ROUTINELY. One thing is for sure, if Onigbinde's tactics were working at the WC, nobody would've had a need to change them. Rather than criticize West, I actually fault Onigbinde for letting his ego get in the way. Some coaches even go to the extent of making room for certain senior players to adjust the team on-field as the game demands. This was sometimes the case between Rikjaard and van Gaal at Ajax. Also, Westerhoff did allow Keshi room to make on-field adjustments.
Coaches who let their egos get too much in the way have sometimes had reason to regret it. The case of Uli Steilike and Juup Derwall at the Italy-gERMANY WC final in 1982 comes to mind.

[daddyrich]

If Nigerian players actually tend "go on to the pitch and do their own thing," then Adegboye Onigbinde is the only indigenous coach that I would respect for not tolerating such professional mutiny -- but I suspect that the above is yet another one of your sweeping overgeneralizations.

Despite my disapproval of his coaching philisophy and disdain for his spin on our WC tragedy, Baxter would earn my total respect for the same reason - if Ayo is right.

I think Ayo is stretching the truth though.

[Gotti]

Gotti, Germany's constitution gave Hitler full authority as the Chancellor. He got all his nasty mesures approved by parliament, likewise Saddam Hussein.

Please stop trying to twist words. The principle is still the same irrespective pof the circumstance, even if there is a difference of magnitude.

AYO:
I cannot believe that TOXICARROW actually said that you are a "qualified historian". As I pointed out wrt the Jonas Savimbi episode, your knowledge of historical facts is in serious need of a REFRESHER course.

The so-called "youth" arm of the National Socialists (Nazi) party SACKED the German Legislature, allowing Hitler to assume dictatorial powers. And Saddam Hussien rose to power as a result of a VIOLENT and bloody coup against the Iraqi monarchy.

[Ziontrain]

He didn't lie. They WERE junk - the worst and most haphazardly created squad we have ever sent to a major tounament in modern times. All Taribo did was to call a spad a spade.

Spot on! He called a spad a spade! He called good players junk!

This is not the point. It is wrong to yab your team mates in front of the world media, irrespective of what you think about their talent.

Typically I would 100% agree with you. However this was not a typical case. It was a team that suddenly got decimated and rejiggered with players who had no business being on the squad of a decent CL-level team, let alone to be present in a WC squad carrying the tradition of the Green and White.

That team was a circus - they had lost WAY before they even set foot in Japan. In that repect I commend Pastor for coming straight on the "Emperors New Clothes". The whole thing was a farce and it HAD to be said.

[Gotti]

Gotti
Nigerian players since experiencing European football, have routinely structured the SE when under a local coach. ROUTINELY. One thing is for sure, if Onigbinde's tactics were working at the WC, nobody would've had a need to change them. Rather than criticize West, I actually fault Onigbinde for letting his ego get in the way. Some coaches even go to the extent of making room for certain senior players to adjust the team on-field as the game demands. This was sometimes the case between Rikjaard and van Gaal at Ajax. Also, Westerhoff did allow Keshi room to make on-field adjustments.

TXJ:
If you have actually been following this discussion, you would see that (in my very first post hereunder) I made a clear distinction between players' imput and players' mutiny -- it is a distinction with a difference. Nevertheless, I am reasonably confident that even Rikjaard would never disobey or ignore the direct instructions of van Gaal -- just because he played at a "higher level" than van Gaal.

[Ayo Akinfe]

Gotti, Germany's constitution gave Hitler full authority as the Chancellor. He got all his nasty mesures approved by parliament, likewise Saddam Hussein.

Please stop trying to twist words. The principle is still the same irrespective pof the circumstance, even if there is a difference of magnitude.

AYO:
I cannot believe that TOXICARROW actually said that you are a "qualified historian". As I pointed out wrt the Jonas Savimbi episode, your knowledge of historical facts is in serious need of a REFRESHER course.

The so-called "youth" arm of the National Socialists (Nazi) party SACKED the German Legislature, allowing Hitler to assume dictatorial powers. And Saddam Hussien rose to power as a result of a VIOLENT and bloody coup against the Iraqi monarchy.

This Gotti na wa self!

Hitler was elected to the Chancellorship by the Bundestag. It was not until the late 1930's that parliament was dissolved. Prior to that, the parliament approved many of Hitlers laws, such as the stripping of jew of their German citizenship.

In Iraq, the Baath Party was ushered into power in a popular revolt which saw Saddam Hussein come into office, holding several key posts until he was appointed vice president and ultimately president. I hope you are also aware of the fact that Iraq also had a parliament throughout Saddam's reign.

[txj]

Gotti:
The difference between INPUT and MUTINY here is a coach's (Onigbinde) ego. But at the same time, as long as the buck stops with the coach, his instructions should be followed. However some people think, not to an illogical or doomed end. I thought Oni could've been more diplomatic in this case. His methods were not working, indeed were a subject of ridicule.

[Gotti]

AYO:
Having a hand-picked "parliament" does not imbue legitimacy on an illegitimate dictatorship. And btw, when did the slaughter of folks in the streets constitute a "popular revolt"?!

As for Hitler, again refresh your history. The Bundestag was SACKED and burnt down (not dissolved), and many of its members killed or imprisoned, precisely because it sought to check Hitler's fledging dictatorship.

[Gotti]

Gotti:
The difference between INPUT and MUTINY here is a coach's (Onigbinde) ego.

...which is no bigger than van Gaal's (or indeed of Westerhoff's).

[Gotti]

Gotti:
The difference between INPUT and MUTINY here is a coach's (Onigbinde) ego. But at the same time, as long as the buck stops with the coach, his instructions should be followed. However some people think, not to an illogical or doomed end. I thought Oni could've been more diplomatic in this case. His methods were not working, indeed were a subject of ridicule.

TXJ:
Without prejudice, coaches are not necessarily the most popular figures around the clubhouse. I am for removing a coach if his methods (as judged by results/performance) is not working, but I am resolutely against undermining his authority -- either from above or below (in this instance).

[Ayo Akinfe]

AYO:
Having a hand-picked "parliament" does not imbue legitimacy on an illegitimate dictatorship. And btw, when did the slaughter of folks in the streets constitute a "popular revolt"?!

As for Hitler, again refresh your history. The Bundestag was SACKED and burnt down (not dissolved), and many of its members killed or imprisoned, precisely because it sought to check Hitler's fledging dictatorship.

Gotti, according to the logic of your argument, the uprising that brought down Nicolai Caucescu was also regrettable then. You keep on talking about democracy as if coaches are elected by a majority of the citizens of a country.

Let us be clear here. Onigbinbde was the one who refused to listen to advice. The senior players were the true custodians of the wishes of Nigerian fans and players.

[txj]

Yet van Gaal made room for Rikjaard's on-field input.

Gotti:
The difference between INPUT and MUTINY here is a coach's (Onigbinde) ego.

...which is no bigger than van Gaal's (or indeed of Westerhoff's).

[Gotti]

Gotti, according to the logic of your argument, the uprising that brought down Nicolai Caucescu was also regrettable then. You keep on talking about democracy as if coaches are elected by a majority of the citizens of a country.

AYO:
I am afraid that this is not the forum to pursue your increasing irrelevant line of discourse, so I will keep this brief: Communist dictators who come to power through extra-constitutional means and retain power primarily through the employment of oppresive and lethal force are NOT "constituted" authority.

Who said anything about coaches and democracy?! You introduced this absurd analogy between coaching decisions and crimes against humanity, so please refrain ftrom the sophistry of rephrasing one's position -- that is the tool of the intellectually-challenged. And (perhaps, misguidedly) I expect a bit more from you.

[Gotti]

Yet van Gaal made room for Rikjaard's on-field input.

...which is DISTINCT from mutiny.

[shaq]

Gotti, according to the logic of your argument, the uprising that brought down Nicolai Caucescu was also regrettable then. You keep on talking about democracy as if coaches are elected by a majority of the citizens of a country.

AYO:
I am afraid that this is not the forum to pursue your increasing irrelevant line of discourse, but I will keep this brief.

Communist dictators who come to power through extra-constitutional means and retain power through extra-constitutional means and the employment of oppresive and lethal force are NOT "constituted" authority.

Who said anything about coaches and democracy?! You introduced this absurd analogy between coaching decisions and crimes against humanity. So please refrain ftrom the sophistry of rephrasing one's position -- that is the tool of the intellectually-challenged. And I expect a bit more from you.

kaii, U sabi book

[txj]

...and which obviates mutiny

Yet van Gaal made room for Rikjaard's on-field input.

...which is DISTINCT from mutiny.

[Waffiman]

Gotti
Nigerian players since experiencing European football, have routinely structured the SE when under a local coach. ROUTINELY. One thing is for sure, if Onigbinde's tactics were working at the WC, nobody would've had a need to change them. Rather than criticize West, I actually fault Onigbinde for letting his ego get in the way. Some coaches even go to the extent of making room for certain senior players to adjust the team on-field as the game demands. This was sometimes the case between Rikjaard and van Gaal at Ajax. Also, Westerhoff did allow Keshi room to make on-field adjustments.
Coaches who let their egos get too much in the way have sometimes had reason to regret it. The case of Uli Steilike and Juup Derwall at the Italy-gERMANY WC final in 1982 comes to mind.

True txj, however it has its problems if not done properly. Remember the Dutch problems in the WC 94 when Gullit refused Danny Blind such authority and walked out. A decision which cost the Dutch the WC IMHO.

It repeated itself again when Davids walked out on Hiddink and the team accusing him of racism. Davids hated Blind's guts too.

Finally txj, I am not holding brief for Chief AO, but I do not agree when you try to justify a player undermining a coach's decision on the pitch. Yes, players can have input but the final decision is always and should always be left to the coach.

[Ayo Akinfe]

Gotti, according to the logic of your argument, the uprising that brought down Nicolai Caucescu was also regrettable then. You keep on talking about democracy as if coaches are elected by a majority of the citizens of a country.

AYO:
I am afraid that this is not the forum to pursue your increasing irrelevant line of discourse, so I will keep this brief: Communist dictators who come to power through extra-constitutional means and retain power primarily through the employment of oppresive and lethal force are NOT "constituted" authority.

Who said anything about coaches and democracy?! You introduced this absurd analogy between coaching decisions and crimes against humanity, so please refrain ftrom the sophistry of rephrasing one's position -- that is the tool of the intellectually-challenged. And (perhaps, misguidedly) I expect a bit more from you.

Gotti, as a parting shot, please give us a definition of "constituted authority." I hope your legal mind will also break it down into simple English for us if necessary.

[txj]

WAFFLMAN
See below:

Gotti:
The difference between INPUT and MUTINY here is a coach's (Onigbinde) ego. But at the same time, as long as the buck stops with the coach, his instructions should be followed. However some people think, not to an illogical or doomed end. I thought Oni could've been more diplomatic in this case. His methods were not working, indeed were a subject of ridicule.

[Waffiman]

WAFFLMAN
See below:

Gotti:
The difference between INPUT and MUTINY here is a coach's (Onigbinde) ego. But at the same time, as long as the buck stops with the coach, his instructions should be followed. However some people think, not to an illogical or doomed end. I thought Oni could've been more diplomatic in this case. His methods were not working, indeed were a subject of ridicule.

I got stop in my tracks by work issues so I lost track of the debate. Yes, Oni could have been more diplomatic but it was not his modus operandi, and the players have got to accept that. When push comes to shove, the coach is often the one who get the shove, so whatever the coach's methods he pays the price for failure.

The bottomline is all coaches have their methods, in general, some are dictators - Alex Ferguson, some are democrats - Arsene Wenger.

There is also the key component which is often called man-management, this is often where most of our coaches are found wanting. Some players need a gentle and sensitive hand, while some need a tough hand, it is up to the coach to know when and where to apply differents ways when he feels he has to. For me, the tough, uncompromising, dictatorial I know all attitude of most ICs is outdated and needs more refining.

[furiously frank]

The problem is going to rear it's ugly head when CCC draw out a game plan and Taribo changed it at the huddle after the usual prayer..... Let's just hope the apostle has changed odawise expect wahala!