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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:10 pm 
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analyzer wrote:
oloye wrote:
mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

That was why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall....


In LVG's defense, De Jong was just coming back from a groin injury.. Also, i think Clesson is a better passer and was good for starting attacks...

IMO, LVG over tinkered with that squad.. seems he did not have a settled line up.. On the other hand, the dutch team did not have much quality in depth..

And he played 90 minutes...He should have kept a slot for Krul. Strange the man said he only plays fit players, so like people argued why remove Jong? OR did he play two unfit players in RVP and Jong going by your suggestion? The truth is the man was afraid very afraid the argies could sneak in one-rightly so because they did have a couple of chances to do. The harried header by the striker with that dreadful ponytail or whatever it was dangling from behind his bald head, and the poorly executed volley by Maxi Rodriguez. It was his fear that made him abadon the tactics that got him to the semi-final by sacrificing the slot he reserved for Krul, he should have rode his luck through. Just my 2p.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:26 pm 
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oloye wrote:
analyzer wrote:
oloye wrote:
mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

That was why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall....


In LVG's defense, De Jong was just coming back from a groin injury.. Also, i think Clesson is a better passer and was good for starting attacks...

IMO, LVG over tinkered with that squad.. seems he did not have a settled line up.. On the other hand, the dutch team did not have much quality in depth..

And he played 90 minutes...He should have kept a slot for Krul. Strange the man said he only plays fit players, so like people argued why remove Jong? OR did he play two unfit players in RVP and Jong going by your suggestion? The truth is the man was afraid very afraid the argies could sneak in one-rightly so because they did have a couple of chances to do. The harried header by the striker with that dreadful ponytail or whatever it was dangling from behind his bald head, and the poorly executed volley by Maxi Rodriguez. It was his fear that made him abadon the tactics that got him to the semi-final by sacrificing the slot he reserved for Krul, he should have rode his luck through. Just my 2p.

Bringing Huntelaar on didn't even add anything.

RB.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Oloye.. De Jong played 60mins or so.. Clisen (sp) came on early 2nd half..

Yeah, looks like LVG gambled starting 2 unfit players.. then you have the black defender Indi, who was just having a nightmare...

Facing a formidable opponent that set up to avoid getting caught on the counter was always going to present challenges to the dutch, who are strongest when on the counter.. with hardly any space to operate, robben was rendered a non factor until OT..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:57 pm 
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analyzer wrote:
Oloye.. De Jong played 60mins or so.. Clisen (sp) came on early 2nd half..

Yeah, looks like LVG gambled starting 2 unfit players.. then you have the black defender Indi, who was just having a nightmare...

Facing a formidable opponent that set up to avoid getting caught on the counter was always going to present challenges to the dutch, who are strongest when on the counter.. with hardly any space to operate, robben was rendered a non factor until OT..


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:41 pm 
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analyzer wrote:
oloye wrote:
mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

That was why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall....


In LVG's defense, De Jong was just coming back from a groin injury.. Also, i think Clesson is a better passer and was good for starting attacks...

IMO, LVG over tinkered with that squad.. seems he did not have a settled line up.. On the other hand, the dutch team did not have much quality in depth..

De Jong could not play more than 60 minutes because he as coming off an injury (in fact, the injury was supposed to rule him out of the tournament), Indi was removed because he was on a yellow and still committing dangerous fouls. Maybe Huntelaar should have come in earlier for Van Persie, but the coach knows better.

After making those three subs, there was no place for a Krul substitution. Even if Krul had played, there is no guarantee that it would have worked this time. It worked against Costa Rica because their penalty takers did not prepare for Krul. I am sure the Argentines must have prepared for that possibility.

At the end of the day, a coach is not a magician. He can only maximize his team's chances within the confines of the games rules: if Van Gaal was allowed 4 substitutions instead of 3, he would have played Krul for the penalties (or maybe not, because Krul is not know to be a penalty specialist).

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Vincent. wrote:
analyzer wrote:
oloye wrote:
mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

That was why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall....


In LVG's defense, De Jong was just coming back from a groin injury.. Also, i think Clesson is a better passer and was good for starting attacks...

IMO, LVG over tinkered with that squad.. seems he did not have a settled line up.. On the other hand, the dutch team did not have much quality in depth..

De Jong could not play more than 60 minutes because he as coming off an injury (in fact, the injury was supposed to rule him out of the tournament), Indi was removed because he was on a yellow and still committing dangerous fouls. Maybe Huntelaar should have come in earlier for Van Persie, but the coach knows better.

After making those three subs, there was no place for a Krul substitution. Even if Krul had played, there is no guarantee that it would have worked this time. It worked against Costa Rica because their penalty takers did not prepare for Krul. I am sure the Argentines must have prepared for that possibility.

At the end of the day, a coach is not a magician. He can only maximize his team's chances within the confines of the games rules: if Van Gaal was allowed 4 substitutions instead of 3, he would have played Krul for the penalties (or maybe not, because Krul is not know to be a penalty specialist).

For a coach who said that he only plays fully fit players..what do you think about his playing 2 fully unfit players? Whichever you look at it, he committed a 'harakiri' on himself. Strange how you now say that there was no guarantee Krul would have saved a penalty, so why bother the first time around? I agree coaches make mistakes...but there are some so glaring it makes you wonder what is going on here..... Oh well at least it gives us something to jawjaw about.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:19 pm 
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1. LvG had little option but to 'manage' the unfit players as best he could...

2. As for the use of Krul for PKs, you have to understand his use vs Costa Rica was a stunt, which maximized the element of surprise. That's different for instance from the Enyimba situation where Dele is a specialist PK stopper. Krul is not!

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:46 pm 
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LVG was mistaken to use an unfit player such as De Jong. You know going into matches like this there is a possibility of playing 120 minutes. He pulled a Diego Simeone there.

Second, all I've heard/read all day is what might've been if Krul was subbed on. My question is, would he have made a considerable difference considering the Dutch missed 2 penalties?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:50 pm 
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txj wrote:
1. LvG had little option but to 'manage' the unfit players as best he could...

2. As for the use of Krul for PKs, you have to understand his use vs Costa Rica was a stunt, which maximized the element of surprise. That's different for instance from the Enyimba situation where Dele is a specialist PK stopper. Krul is not!

Strange how what was hailed as some tactical masterstroke is now being called a stunt, will you guys make up your minds... :D :D .

As for playing unfit players..another wao from a guy who said that he does not play unfit players..going against his own principles fits the reason why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall. I can understand RVP being his captain and one that he always sacrifices in his games...but De Jong? He bungled it and he knows it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:06 pm 
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I am not one fully sold on to Krul or not to Krul.. but a concrete argument can easily be made in favor of Krul

@Helio,
Krul saved 2 of the 5 PKs (while guessing right on the others) vs. CR.. miraculously repeating same feat yesterday would have had the PK shootout all tied..

@Txj, while Krul is neither a certified PK specialist nor a guarantee for a W - fact remains that he has a better PK record than Cillessen. Per the commentaries yesterday, Cillessen has saved Zero PKs in his senior career.. Even LVG confirmed that Krul has a better PK track record..
Quote:
“We said nothing to Jasper because we didn't want him to know before the game,” Van Gaal said. “But as I've explained, every keeper has specific qualities.
“Tim has a longer reach and a better track record with penalties than Cillessen.
“We had discussed it with Tim. He knew about their penalties because he needed to be prepared.
“It worked out. If it hadn't, it would have been my mistake.
“Every player has certain skills and qualities and they don't always coincide. We felt Tim would be the most appropriate keeper to save penalties.
“You have seen that Tim dived to the right corner twice. We are a tiny bit proud this trick has helped us through.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Gaal.html

Knowing all this, why did LVG not try to repeat the same trick?? Maybe for this game, LVG never entertained the Krul option or other circumstances preceded it....

again, there are absolutely no guarantees but probability arguably favored using Krul..

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:12 pm 
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analyzer wrote:
I am not one fully sold on to Krul or not to Krul.. but a concrete argument can easily be made in favor of Krul

@Helio,
Krul saved 2 of the 5 PKs (while guessing right on the others) vs. CR.. miraculously repeating same feat yesterday would have had the PK shootout all tied..

@Txj, while Krul is neither a certified PK specialist nor a guarantee for a W - fact remains that he has a better PK record than Cillessen. Per the commentaries yesterday, Cillessen has saved Zero PKs in his senior career.. Even LVG confirmed that Krul has a better PK track record..
Quote:
“We said nothing to Jasper because we didn't want him to know before the game,” Van Gaal said. “But as I've explained, every keeper has specific qualities.
“Tim has a longer reach and a better track record with penalties than Cillessen.
“We had discussed it with Tim. He knew about their penalties because he needed to be prepared.

“It worked out. If it hadn't, it would have been my mistake.
“Every player has certain skills and qualities and they don't always coincide. We felt Tim would be the most appropriate keeper to save penalties.
“You have seen that Tim dived to the right corner twice. We are a tiny bit proud this trick has helped us through.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Gaal.html

Knowing all this, why did LVG not try to repeat the same trick?? Maybe for this game, LVG never entertained the Krul option or other circumstances preceded it....

again, there are absolutely no guarantees but probability arguably favored using Krul..

And someone here said that playing him in the Costa Rica match was mere antics/stunt or was it tactic they meant to say. :biggrin: . LVG goofed, he went against his convictions..simples!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:18 pm 
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analyzer wrote:
I am not one fully sold on to Krul or not to Krul.. but a concrete argument can easily be made in favor of Krul

@Helio,
Krul saved 2 of the 5 PKs (while guessing right on the others) vs. CR.. miraculously repeating same feat yesterday would have had the PK shootout all tied..

@Txj, while Krul is neither a certified PK specialist nor a guarantee for a W - fact remains that he has a better PK record than Cillessen. Per the commentaries yesterday, Cillessen has saved Zero PKs in his senior career.. Even LVG confirmed that Krul has a better PK track record..
Quote:
“We said nothing to Jasper because we didn't want him to know before the game,” Van Gaal said. “But as I've explained, every keeper has specific qualities.
“Tim has a longer reach and a better track record with penalties than Cillessen.
“We had discussed it with Tim. He knew about their penalties because he needed to be prepared.
“It worked out. If it hadn't, it would have been my mistake.
“Every player has certain skills and qualities and they don't always coincide. We felt Tim would be the most appropriate keeper to save penalties.
“You have seen that Tim dived to the right corner twice. We are a tiny bit proud this trick has helped us through.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Gaal.html

Knowing all this, why did LVG not try to repeat the same trick?? Maybe for this game, LVG never entertained the Krul option or other circumstances preceded it....

again, there are absolutely no guarantees but probability arguably favored using Krul..

Playing Krul would have placed the Argies under more pressure...the pressure of trying harder to prevent him saving their kicks. We know what usually happens when players try harder than normal.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:07 pm 
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oloye wrote:
txj wrote:
1. LvG had little option but to 'manage' the unfit players as best he could...

2. As for the use of Krul for PKs, you have to understand his use vs Costa Rica was a stunt, which maximized the element of surprise. That's different for instance from the Enyimba situation where Dele is a specialist PK stopper. Krul is not!

Strange how what was hailed as some tactical masterstroke is now being called a stunt, will you guys make up your minds... :D :D .

As for playing unfit players..another wao from a guy who said that he does not play unfit players..going against his own principles fits the reason why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall. I can understand RVP being his captain and one that he always sacrifices in his games...but De Jong? He bungled it and he knows it.


U should read my comments on this in the eagles nest. Its a tactical masterstroke alright, but its effectiveness was based on the element of surprise, an unexpected move and thus a stunt.

Having used it once, there was no more surprises to be offered. It had to come down to the abilities of both GKs. Krul is not the better GK; neither does he have a history of stopping PKs. Hence faced with the options LvG had, IN THE CONTEXT of this match- yellow card to Martins Indi, De Jong at 60%, RVP at something above that, he really had no room to preserve a sub for Krul whose value (ie surprise) had diminished...

As for use of De Jong, such things are always a gamble, but he most probably had info from his doctors that he could use him for as long as he did. The Dutch have no other player, outside Nigel who can do a man marking job on Messi.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:39 pm 
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Vincent. wrote:

At the end of the day, a coach is not a magician.

Mourinho is a magician; Diego Simeone is a magician; Sir Alex Ferguson was a magician.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:48 pm 
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ohsee wrote:
Vincent. wrote:

At the end of the day, a coach is not a magician.



Mourinho is a magician; Diego Simeone is a magician; Sir Alex Ferguson was a magician.


And the TOP magician is .............................................

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'You-know-who' :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: ........from 'none qualification to champs' only a TOP magician can pull it off :clap:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:54 pm 
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oloye wrote:
Vincent. wrote:
analyzer wrote:
oloye wrote:
mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

That was why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall....


In LVG's defense, De Jong was just coming back from a groin injury.. Also, i think Clesson is a better passer and was good for starting attacks...

IMO, LVG over tinkered with that squad.. seems he did not have a settled line up.. On the other hand, the dutch team did not have much quality in depth..

De Jong could not play more than 60 minutes because he as coming off an injury (in fact, the injury was supposed to rule him out of the tournament), Indi was removed because he was on a yellow and still committing dangerous fouls. Maybe Huntelaar should have come in earlier for Van Persie, but the coach knows better.

After making those three subs, there was no place for a Krul substitution. Even if Krul had played, there is no guarantee that it would have worked this time. It worked against Costa Rica because their penalty takers did not prepare for Krul. I am sure the Argentines must have prepared for that possibility.

At the end of the day, a coach is not a magician. He can only maximize his team's chances within the confines of the games rules: if Van Gaal was allowed 4 substitutions instead of 3, he would have played Krul for the penalties (or maybe not, because Krul is not know to be a penalty specialist).

For a coach who said that he only plays fully fit players..what do you think about his playing 2 fully unfit players? Whichever you look at it, he committed a 'harakiri' on himself. Strange how you now say that there was no guarantee Krul would have saved a penalty, so why bother the first time around? I agree coaches make mistakes...but there are some so glaring it makes you wonder what is going on here..... Oh well at least it gives us something to jawjaw about.

Chief, as you know, coaching is about maximizing your options and making educated gambles. Van Gaal probably knew from the start that De Jong would have to come off after 60 mins but he must have decided that playing De Jong against Messi for 60 minutes was better than playing the alternative for 90 minutes. As for van Persie, he probably thought that one moment of "genius" could be enough to decide the game. What if he did not play De Jong and Messi runs riot? Hindsight is a beautiful thing, but who knows how Huntelaar would have done if started over Van Persie? Van Gaal is the coach and he knows both players very well. By the way, Van Persie was fully fit against Mexico and Costa Rica, but he did nothing.

As for Krul, what I don't understand is why people are now saying he should have been used for the penalties. Had they lost to Costa Rica, people would have called Van Gaal a mad man for replacing his reliable starting keeper with his second-choice keeper at the most crucial moment in the quarter-final of a World Cup. Just because it paid off against Costa Rica, people are now complaining that Van Gaal made a mistake by not introducing Krul again. Krul's introduction surprised Costa Rica, but would not have surprised Argentina because they already knew he might come on. Even playing Krul would not have prevented the Dutch from missing the penalties they missed.

Moreover, why should Van Gaal reserve his third substitution for Krul when nobody knew from the start that the game would go to penalties? The only reason he was able to use Krul against Costa Rica is that he was not in a position where he needed to take off a defender who was already on a yellow card and committing rash fouls, which could earn him a red card - this was the case with Martins Indi. Indi was already on a yellow and he was struggling very hard yo cope with Messi and Lavezzi on the right. Had he not been in that situation, maybe Van Gaal would still have one substitution left after 90 minutes? It is impossible to judge 100% how a match will pan out.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:06 pm 
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ohsee wrote:
Vincent. wrote:

At the end of the day, a coach is not a magician.

Mourinho is a magician; Diego Simeone is a magician; Sir Alex Ferguson was a magician.

believe me, coaching is not magic. Mourinho could not conjure up a title last season.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:30 pm 
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Vincent

I get that a coach knows best. He knows the fitness of the players, psychology, and how they work best. But they're not infallible. Moreover, once the key facts become known, sometimes even clowns like us can identify their mistakes.

You said something interesting about perhaps Messi running riot if De Jong and Van Persie were out there. But if you know both are not fit, doesn't this make them suspect from the get go, not some hypothetical 65th minute? It's kind of like seeing a grandmaster make a bad chess move. We know we're not better, but we're still capable of identifying some mistakes.

In this one, I feel Van Gal didn't make a mistake, in so much as I think he could have done better. Most of all, I still can't understand why he didn't go for broke in extra time. It's as if Holland tacitly agreed to penalties.

It's all academic now. Onto Argentina vs Germany.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:34 am 
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Vincent. wrote:
Chief, as you know, coaching is about maximizing your options and making educated gambles. Van Gaal probably knew from the start that De Jong would have to come off after 60 mins but he must have decided that playing De Jong against Messi for 60 minutes was better than playing the alternative for 90 minutes. As for van Persie, he probably thought that one moment of "genius" could be enough to decide the game. What if he did not play De Jong and Messi runs riot? Hindsight is a beautiful thing, but who knows how Huntelaar would have done if started over Van Persie? Van Gaal is the coach and he knows both players very well. By the way, Van Persie was fully fit against Mexico and Costa Rica, but he did nothing.

As for Krul, what I don't understand is why people are now saying he should have been used for the penalties. Had they lost to Costa Rica, people would have called Van Gaal a mad man for replacing his reliable starting keeper with his second-choice keeper at the most crucial moment in the quarter-final of a World Cup. Just because it paid off against Costa Rica, people are now complaining that Van Gaal made a mistake by not introducing Krul again. Krul's introduction surprised Costa Rica, but would not have surprised Argentina because they already knew he might come on. Even playing Krul would not have prevented the Dutch from missing the penalties they missed.

Moreover, why should Van Gaal reserve his third substitution for Krul when nobody knew from the start that the game would go to penalties? The only reason he was able to use Krul against Costa Rica is that he was not in a position where he needed to take off a defender who was already on a yellow card and committing rash fouls, which could earn him a red card - this was the case with Martins Indi. Indi was already on a yellow and he was struggling very hard yo cope with Messi and Lavezzi on the right. Had he not been in that situation, maybe Van Gaal would still have one substitution left after 90 minutes? It is impossible to judge 100% how a match will pan out.


But the so called trick did not fail.. it is not like LVG conjured the Krul sub from some magic pot.. From the CR post match interview, LVG definitely made an informed decision and not necessarily some Russian roulette..
Common vincent - did LVG know CR game will go to PKs, but he still planned appropriately.. Starting two arguably unfit players pretty much handicapped him with his subs.. The huntelaar sub was made in Extra time.. I was even a bit surprised as i thought he would have left RVP on with PKs in mind... I do agree he never bargained for the nightmare Indi had..

Also, playing Krul definitely would not have surprised the argies but arguably could have intimidated the Argies more than seeing Cillessen in post.... You get to face a "celebrated" penalty hero from the previous round.. A player whose only call to fame in this WC is saving PKs that knocked out the previous opponent.. :lol: :lol:
Even you or I go shake small.. walking to the PK spot, Krul already waiting with his mind games like he did vs. CR and then you now have to stare at him and his big physical frame for a few seconds until ref blows whistle to go take the PK.. common bro, you got to admit that can be intimidating..
I know say I use story telling means to sell it.. :D :D :D

While the dutch could have still missed their PKs, krul might have saved 1 or 2 to keep the dutch in it.. No one really knows.. argument is just based on probabilities relative to previous exploit..
And yes, hindsight is responsible for all our talk.. That is the beauty of post game discussions - a lot of ifs and buts..

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:21 am 
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Vincent. wrote:
ohsee wrote:
Vincent. wrote:

At the end of the day, a coach is not a magician.

Mourinho is a magician; Diego Simeone is a magician; Sir Alex Ferguson was a magician.

believe me, coaching is not magic. Mourinho could not conjure up a title last season.

What you mean is that a coach cannot win every day. But some coaches perform conjuring acts nearly every day.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:45 am 
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analyzer wrote:
Vincent. wrote:
Chief, as you know, coaching is about maximizing your options and making educated gambles. Van Gaal probably knew from the start that De Jong would have to come off after 60 mins but he must have decided that playing De Jong against Messi for 60 minutes was better than playing the alternative for 90 minutes. As for van Persie, he probably thought that one moment of "genius" could be enough to decide the game. What if he did not play De Jong and Messi runs riot? Hindsight is a beautiful thing, but who knows how Huntelaar would have done if started over Van Persie? Van Gaal is the coach and he knows both players very well. By the way, Van Persie was fully fit against Mexico and Costa Rica, but he did nothing.

As for Krul, what I don't understand is why people are now saying he should have been used for the penalties. Had they lost to Costa Rica, people would have called Van Gaal a mad man for replacing his reliable starting keeper with his second-choice keeper at the most crucial moment in the quarter-final of a World Cup. Just because it paid off against Costa Rica, people are now complaining that Van Gaal made a mistake by not introducing Krul again. Krul's introduction surprised Costa Rica, but would not have surprised Argentina because they already knew he might come on. Even playing Krul would not have prevented the Dutch from missing the penalties they missed.

Moreover, why should Van Gaal reserve his third substitution for Krul when nobody knew from the start that the game would go to penalties? The only reason he was able to use Krul against Costa Rica is that he was not in a position where he needed to take off a defender who was already on a yellow card and committing rash fouls, which could earn him a red card - this was the case with Martins Indi. Indi was already on a yellow and he was struggling very hard yo cope with Messi and Lavezzi on the right. Had he not been in that situation, maybe Van Gaal would still have one substitution left after 90 minutes? It is impossible to judge 100% how a match will pan out.


But the so called trick did not fail.. it is not like LVG conjured the Krul sub from some magic pot.. From the CR post match interview, LVG definitely made an informed decision and not necessarily some Russian roulette..
Common vincent - did LVG know CR game will go to PKs, but he still planned appropriately.. Starting two arguably unfit players pretty much handicapped him with his subs.. The huntelaar sub was made in Extra time.. I was even a bit surprised as i thought he would have left RVP on with PKs in mind... I do agree he never bargained for the nightmare Indi had..

Also, playing Krul definitely would not have surprised the argies but arguably could have intimidated the Argies more than seeing Cillessen in post.... You get to face a "celebrated" penalty hero from the previous round.. A player whose only call to fame in this WC is saving PKs that knocked out the previous opponent.. :lol: :lol:
Even you or I go shake small.. walking to the PK spot, Krul already waiting with his mind games like he did vs. CR and then you now have to stare at him and his big physical frame for a few seconds until ref blows whistle to go take the PK.. common bro, you got to admit that can be intimidating..
I know say I use story telling means to sell it.. :D :D :D

While the dutch could have still missed their PKs, krul might have saved 1 or 2 to keep the dutch in it.. No one really knows.. argument is just based on probabilities relative to previous exploit..
And yes, hindsight is responsible for all our talk.. That is the beauty of post game discussions - a lot of ifs and buts..

Say no more,the reason i did not respond was because i could not find the right words to use without being frustrated :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: The whole essence of practicing and training is to find the right personnel to execute a job.Strange he argued that DeJong was used even though he was not fit because he was the one who could do the job, but with Krul, the same argument turned to magic and suprise. Anyone who has played the game would tell you that goalies who have reputation of being penalty stoppers put extra strain of the penalty takers. I am sure the Argies were relieved when Krul did not come on.Looking at it from the psychological point of view, they knew the better penalty stopper is not the one they are facing, no wonder they coolly lined up and tucked in all their balls. Reminds me of shooting practice whenever the keeper we know is the weakest comes in to take his turn in the post, everyone rushes into the queue to have a go at him, and you see missiles start flying from everywhere. :D

If i am to go with their argument it can be said LVG exposed his keeper as being the one who is not good at stopping penalties...I await their spin on that one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:53 pm 
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analyzer wrote:
I am not one fully sold on to Krul or not to Krul.. but a concrete argument can easily be made in favor of Krul

@Helio,
Krul saved 2 of the 5 PKs (while guessing right on the others) vs. CR.. miraculously repeating same feat yesterday would have had the PK shootout all tied..

@Txj, while Krul is neither a certified PK specialist nor a guarantee for a W - fact remains that he has a better PK record than Cillessen. Per the commentaries yesterday, Cillessen has saved Zero PKs in his senior career.. Even LVG confirmed that Krul has a better PK track record..
Quote:
“We said nothing to Jasper because we didn't want him to know before the game,” Van Gaal said. “But as I've explained, every keeper has specific qualities.
“Tim has a longer reach and a better track record with penalties than Cillessen.
“We had discussed it with Tim. He knew about their penalties because he needed to be prepared.
“It worked out. If it hadn't, it would have been my mistake.
“Every player has certain skills and qualities and they don't always coincide. We felt Tim would be the most appropriate keeper to save penalties.
“You have seen that Tim dived to the right corner twice. We are a tiny bit proud this trick has helped us through.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Gaal.html

Knowing all this, why did LVG not try to repeat the same trick?? Maybe for this game, LVG never entertained the Krul option or other circumstances preceded it....

again, there are absolutely no guarantees but probability arguably favored using Krul..


but analyzer Cillessen has never saved a pk in his professional career. After the game against the Argies, he is now 0-20 before the game he was 0-16 so I agree with Oloye that LVG should have stuck to his convictions and subbed in Krul...

However, there are rumors that Cilessen wasnt happy about the sub after the Costa Rica game and asked to be in goal for any subsequent pks


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:05 am 
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bonecrusher wrote:
analyzer wrote:
I am not one fully sold on to Krul or not to Krul.. but a concrete argument can easily be made in favor of Krul

@Helio,
Krul saved 2 of the 5 PKs (while guessing right on the others) vs. CR.. miraculously repeating same feat yesterday would have had the PK shootout all tied..

@Txj, while Krul is neither a certified PK specialist nor a guarantee for a W - fact remains that he has a better PK record than Cillessen. Per the commentaries yesterday, Cillessen has saved Zero PKs in his senior career.. Even LVG confirmed that Krul has a better PK track record..
Quote:
“We said nothing to Jasper because we didn't want him to know before the game,” Van Gaal said. “But as I've explained, every keeper has specific qualities.
“Tim has a longer reach and a better track record with penalties than Cillessen.
“We had discussed it with Tim. He knew about their penalties because he needed to be prepared.
“It worked out. If it hadn't, it would have been my mistake.
“Every player has certain skills and qualities and they don't always coincide. We felt Tim would be the most appropriate keeper to save penalties.
“You have seen that Tim dived to the right corner twice. We are a tiny bit proud this trick has helped us through.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Gaal.html

Knowing all this, why did LVG not try to repeat the same trick?? Maybe for this game, LVG never entertained the Krul option or other circumstances preceded it....

again, there are absolutely no guarantees but probability arguably favored using Krul..


but analyzer Cillessen has never saved a pk in his professional career. After the game against the Argies, he is now 0-20 before the game he was 0-16 so I agree with Oloye that LVG should have stuck to his convictions and subbed in Krul...

However, there are rumors that Cilessen wasnt happy about the sub after the Costa Rica game and asked to be in goal for any subsequent pks



replays now show that Vlaar's PK eventually went in. After the keeper made the save and went celebrating, and Vlaar was already dejected a la Ikpeba, the ball eventually rolled over the line. Question is, was it already a deadball? Methinks no :sneaky:

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