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[2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs
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Author:  The YeyeMan [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Vincent. wrote:
soothsayer wrote:
This world cup is weird man, how on earth did this so called Average team called Argentina get to the finals..........
How did a team like Germany that could have lost to useless Ghana make it to the final??????

It is actually not weird. Tournament-winning teams usually pace themselves: they start slowly in the group stages and improve as the tournament progresses, with the idea of peaking toward the business end of the tournament. If you come to win a tournament, there is no point peaking in the group stages. It is about getting it right between peaking too early and starting too slowly.

It is clear that Argentina has improved significantly (especially in terms of team defense) in the past two matches.

Very true.

All things considered I think it'll be fitting if Germany win this WC.

Author:  The YeyeMan [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

It'll be interesting to see how Argentina copes if they find themselves a goal down to this German team...

I think and hope it'll be a very good final.

Author:  Vincent. [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

The YeyeMan wrote:
Vincent. wrote:
soothsayer wrote:
This world cup is weird man, how on earth did this so called Average team called Argentina get to the finals..........
How did a team like Germany that could have lost to useless Ghana make it to the final??????

It is actually not weird. Tournament-winning teams usually pace themselves: they start slowly in the group stages and improve as the tournament progresses, with the idea of peaking toward the business end of the tournament. If you come to win a tournament, there is no point peaking in the group stages. It is about getting it right between peaking too early and starting too slowly.

It is clear that Argentina has improved significantly (especially in terms of team defense) in the past two matches.

Very true.

All things considered I think it'll be fitting if Germany win this WC.

Agreed! I also suspect that Germany will be too well-rounded for Argentina. I think they have the better players in most positions. They are a better all-round team than Argentina. However, we all know that anything is possible in football. :D

Author:  mcal [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

...so what happened to the master coach van Gaal? Did not switch 'keepers as shootout loomed. I left during 2nd half, match became boring.

Author:  The YeyeMan [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

platinum wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
txj wrote:
A high level, cagey, tactical game.

But surely football can do better than European reductionism...

The Dutch were being reductionist in this game...?


They've been that way all tournament. They've not really taken any game to the opponent, they've reacted to what the opponent has done.

But reactionary doesn't mean reductionist, does it...? I've actually been impressed how LvG has reacted in most situations.

Author:  mcal [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

soothsayer wrote:
This world cup is weird man, how on earth did this so called Average team called Argentina get to the finals..........
How did a team like Germany that could have lost to useless Ghana make it to the final??????
...talent+intelligent+good organization wins you tournament in the long run. Not the hustle and burst when it matters early exit teams.
Argentina will regret getting to the final, as they will be humiliated as was Brazil.

Author:  txj [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

The YeyeMan wrote:
platinum wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
txj wrote:
A high level, cagey, tactical game.

But surely football can do better than European reductionism...

The Dutch were being reductionist in this game...?


They've been that way all tournament. They've not really taken any game to the opponent, they've reacted to what the opponent has done.

But reactionary doesn't mean reductionist, does it...? I've actually been impressed how LvG has reacted in most situations.


I too have been very impressed with LvG, especially in how masterfully he has used his squad- the entire outfield players...

But I was referring to the Eurocentric approach of playing with fear. Fear of losing the ball, fear of being caught on the counter; fear of overexposing oneself...

A reduction of the game to the line of least riskiness...

Its just endless, especially given the attacking talent on display, as in this game.

Author:  mate [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

Author:  txj [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Vincent. wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
Vincent. wrote:
soothsayer wrote:
This world cup is weird man, how on earth did this so called Average team called Argentina get to the finals..........
How did a team like Germany that could have lost to useless Ghana make it to the final??????

It is actually not weird. Tournament-winning teams usually pace themselves: they start slowly in the group stages and improve as the tournament progresses, with the idea of peaking toward the business end of the tournament. If you come to win a tournament, there is no point peaking in the group stages. It is about getting it right between peaking too early and starting too slowly.

It is clear that Argentina has improved significantly (especially in terms of team defense) in the past two matches.

Very true.

All things considered I think it'll be fitting if Germany win this WC.

Agreed! I also suspect that Germany will be too well-rounded for Argentina. I think they have the better players in most positions. They are a better all-round team than Argentina. However, we all know that anything is possible in football. :D


I agree Germany is the most complete team here. I thought the French looked close too. Would've been really interesting if Ribery and Nasri were available...

Author:  txj [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate


I think you miss the point wrt Krul.

It wasn't so much his PK saving skills, which is next to nothing, its the surprise and psychological element of it that made it successful.

You can only pull that stunt once.

Except you have a real specialist PK stopper, like the Nigerian GK, Aiyenugba...

Author:  mate [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

TXJ

I'm just going on the eyeball test. Krul looked pretty good on PKs. His size and apparent lateral mobility alone seemed ideal for this.

The regular keeper kind of looked lost. Not confident.

But I still think the key difference is that the Dutch went turtle in general. Again, I think they over thought things. In contrast, it seems the Germans were a lot more ambitious in their last 2 matches than the Dutch were in theirs.

All I know is that now Brazilians are really in a state of shock. My Brazilian friends say that this is the worst possible scenario.

Cheers, Mate

Author:  analyzer [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

I honestly think yesterday's debacle put a bit of fear in both teams today hence the cautious approach..

LVG will also have to look a himself a bit.. too much tinkering with his squad outside of the usual suspect in Robben, Sneijder and RVP.. Just looked unbalanced today... Will still give him kudos as he did a good job with what looks like a squad that lacked quality in depth.

As for Argentina, i can only describe their play so far in this tournament as solid without really being spectacular or fantastic.. Their D showed up today and i expect to see more of the same in final.. Just like today, will expect them not to over commit in attack (just messi and maybe 3 other folks) while giving little away in defense..
Macherano today was a boss!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Germany's midfield quality will present a different challenge but i still think their overall lack of raw pace could be a detriment to their offense especially if the Argentina defends as deep as they did today and vs. Belgium..

Author:  The YeyeMan [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

mate wrote:
TXJ

I'm just going on the eyeball test. Krul looked pretty good on PKs. His size and apparent lateral mobility alone seemed ideal for this.

The regular keeper kind of looked lost. Not confident.

But I still think the key difference is that the Dutch went turtle in general. Again, I think they over thought things. In contrast, it seems the Germans were a lot more ambitious in their last 2 matches than the Dutch were in theirs.

All I know is that now Brazilians are really in a state of shock. My Brazilian friends say that this is the worst possible scenario.

Cheers, Mate

The PK thing was a stunt, a gimmick - it served it's purpose, it's not a trick to use at every single shoot out.

I'm looking forward to this WC final. :thumbs:

Author:  Coach [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

And there it is folks, the final nail, the last days of General Patton. 20/1 odds on a Dutch romp, mouthwatering and not entirely illogical. How the Albiceleste had creaked at the back, who hadn't heard it? Nigerians? Iranians? Bosnians? There for the taking, there to be trampled, trounced, run roughshod. If Spain could fall, Brazil destroyed, why not a poor, stumbling their way through Argentina. The not so Beautiful Orange was setting a magnificent sun above the Copa Cabana. It was going to be orange, had to be orange, needed to be orange...it was blue. Light blue with white stripes. The devil that had sat by the shoulder, egged on and encouraged the gamble, that renege on the promise for want of golden gratification. It all made sense, Argentina had been rubbish, the Germans had...Brazil were...tomorrow the truth will declare itself, uninvited and intent on chaos. Brethren, it has indeed done me like film trick. Absolutely frigging ridiculous, not a single wager won, in truth, a couple, the losses, plentiful. And heavy. To hell with all this bullsh*t, nonsense. Ordinary Argentina. Faaaaaaaaaack. Absolute b*llocks. Best World Cup ever, nonsense. Round up this drab affair and bring back some proper football that brings with it windfalls.

Author:  The YeyeMan [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Coach wrote:
Best World Cup ever, nonsense. Round up this drab affair and bring back some proper football that brings with it windfalls.

A man who can't wait to see Stoke take on Arsenal at the Britannia. Zzzzzzzzz :lol:

Author:  platinum [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Apparently two Dutch players 'declined' to take the first kick (usually rvp's) :rotf: :rotf:

Author:  mate [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Coach wrote:
And there it is folks, the final nail, the last days of General Patton. 20/1 odds on a Dutch romp, mouthwatering and not entirely illogical. How the Albiceleste had creaked at the back, who hadn't heard it? Nigerians? Iranians? Bosnians? There for the taking, there to be trampled, trounced, run roughshod. If Spain could fall, Brazil destroyed, why not a poor, stumbling their way through Argentina. The not so Beautiful Orange was setting a magnificent sun above the Copa Cabana. It was going to be orange, had to be orange, needed to be orange...it was blue. Light blue with white stripes. The devil that had sat by the shoulder, egged on and encouraged the gamble, that renege on the promise for want of golden gratification. It all made sense, Argentina had been rubbish, the Germans had...Brazil were...tomorrow the truth will declare itself, uninvited and intent on chaos. Brethren, it has indeed done me like film trick. Absolutely frigging ridiculous, not a single wager won, in truth, a couple, the losses, plentiful. And heavy. To hell with all this bullsh*t, nonsense. Ordinary Argentina. Faaaaaaaaaack. Absolute b*llocks. Best World Cup ever, nonsense. Round up this drab affair and bring back some proper football that brings with it windfalls.



You have to acknowledge something: Argentina are playing EXCELLENT defense. Funny enough, some Italian friends of mine have invoked the term catenaccio to describe this tournament emergent tactic of theirs. It reminded us in some ways of 1990...with so many similar story lines.

Except this time the WC is in South America. Messi is trying to win his 1st WC, whereas Diego was defending one. Maybe most importantly, Germany not only then was a good team, but had several world class players...more so than now.

This is anybody's game.

Cheers, Mate

Author:  Cellular [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

txj wrote:
I agree Germany is the most complete team here. I thought the French looked close too. Would've been really interesting if Ribery and Nasri were available...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Author:  paj [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Maradona wrote:
I am in tears!
Too much emotion.

....I hope U bought plenty of KY Jelly for Sunday when the Germans come visit :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Author:  Heliopolis [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Coach wrote:
And there it is folks, the final nail, the last days of General Patton. 20/1 odds on a Dutch romp, mouthwatering and not entirely illogical. How the Albiceleste had creaked at the back, who hadn't heard it? Nigerians? Iranians? Bosnians? There for the taking, there to be trampled, trounced, run roughshod. If Spain could fall, Brazil destroyed, why not a poor, stumbling their way through Argentina. The not so Beautiful Orange was setting a magnificent sun above the Copa Cabana. It was going to be orange, had to be orange, needed to be orange...it was blue. Light blue with white stripes. The devil that had sat by the shoulder, egged on and encouraged the gamble, that renege on the promise for want of golden gratification. It all made sense, Argentina had been rubbish, the Germans had...Brazil were...tomorrow the truth will declare itself, uninvited and intent on chaos. Brethren, it has indeed done me like film trick. Absolutely frigging ridiculous, not a single wager won, in truth, a couple, the losses, plentiful. And heavy. To hell with all this bullsh*t, nonsense. Ordinary Argentina. Faaaaaaaaaack. Absolute b*llocks. Best World Cup ever, nonsense. Round up this drab affair and bring back some proper football that brings with it windfalls.


I've finally come to the conclusion this crap Argentina team is a reflection of Sabella's cautious approach. Going into the tournament we thought Argentina's defence would be crap and the team would concede many goals. Sabella sought to address this by assigning 7 players defensive responsibilities. With Lavezzi's inclusion, Argentina now places 8 players behind the ball whenever the opposition has possession. It's dreadful to watch and has handicapped the team's supposed strength (it's attack) but its an approach that has worked. The alternative would've been for Argentina to come out guns blazing and then been knocked out by one of Switzerland, Belgium or Holland - all of whom are good on the counter and have pace we can not match.

If Argentina uses the same catenaccio approach its used all tournament against Germany then they will have as good of a chance as the Germans of lifting the World Cup trophy. Our attack is poor but all it'll take is 1 goal and some serious bus parking for Argentina to seize the day.

Author:  kofi86 [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

Heliopolis wrote:
Coach wrote:
And there it is folks, the final nail, the last days of General Patton. 20/1 odds on a Dutch romp, mouthwatering and not entirely illogical. How the Albiceleste had creaked at the back, who hadn't heard it? Nigerians? Iranians? Bosnians? There for the taking, there to be trampled, trounced, run roughshod. If Spain could fall, Brazil destroyed, why not a poor, stumbling their way through Argentina. The not so Beautiful Orange was setting a magnificent sun above the Copa Cabana. It was going to be orange, had to be orange, needed to be orange...it was blue. Light blue with white stripes. The devil that had sat by the shoulder, egged on and encouraged the gamble, that renege on the promise for want of golden gratification. It all made sense, Argentina had been rubbish, the Germans had...Brazil were...tomorrow the truth will declare itself, uninvited and intent on chaos. Brethren, it has indeed done me like film trick. Absolutely frigging ridiculous, not a single wager won, in truth, a couple, the losses, plentiful. And heavy. To hell with all this bullsh*t, nonsense. Ordinary Argentina. Faaaaaaaaaack. Absolute b*llocks. Best World Cup ever, nonsense. Round up this drab affair and bring back some proper football that brings with it windfalls.


I've finally come to the conclusion this crap Argentina team is a reflection of Sabella's cautious approach. Going into the tournament we thought Argentina's defence would be crap and the team would concede many goals. Sabella sought to address this by assigning 7 players defensive responsibilities. With Lavezzi's inclusion, Argentina now places 8 players behind the ball whenever the opposition has possession. It's dreadful to watch and has handicapped the team's supposed strength (it's attack) but its an approach that has worked. The alternative would've been for Argentina to come out guns blazing and then been knocked out by one of Switzerland, Belgium or Holland - all of whom are good on the counter and have pace we can not match.

If Argentina uses the same catenaccio approach its used all tournament against Germany then they will have as good of a chance as the Germans of lifting the World Cup trophy. Our attack is poor but all it'll take is 1 goal and some serious bus parking for Argentina to seize the day.


:D
Germany are heavy favorites and should win the final comfortably. But if it was that easy, we would not watch football

Author:  oloye [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

That was why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall....

Author:  analyzer [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [2nd SF] NED 2 V ARG 4 (FT) PKs

oloye wrote:
mate wrote:
Van Gal = Chicken Livers

Tactical genius? More like he over thought things. Why didn't the Dutch play to win in OT. I can get being cagey and conservative in regular time.

But in OT, Holland still looked fitter and stronger and Messi was tired. Moreover, the Dutch were pressing their luck in trying to win 2 PKs in a row. Argentina definitely had more to gain in PKs.

I don't get taking out De Jong. Clesson or whatever his name is did nothing. I don't get why he didn't use Krul again. It's to me common sense, not tactical genius, to use a better penalty saver for PKs. Last but not least, why play Van Persie and not start Huntelaar when the former was ill?

This was a contest between 2 fine football teams and traditions. They both nullified each other's strengths. But I dare say Sabella did better than Van Gal in this one.

Latin guile trumped Dutch clockwork today. I think it's well deserved. Argentina now really smells blood!

:twisted:

Argentina can gloat forever over Brazil if they win a WC in the Maracana.

Messi can cement his place as perhaps the best who ever lived if Argentina win the WC in Maracana.

Forces are colliding! Matter and anti-matter...as a German nation that has been banging on the door for 4 consecutive semifinal or final appearances will try to wrest this away as well.

Me? As always, I'm biased towards the witch. His name is Lionel.

:wink:

Cheers, Mate

That was why i said some coaches are the architect of their own downfall....


In LVG's defense, De Jong was just coming back from a groin injury.. Also, i think Clesson is a better passer and was good for starting attacks...

IMO, LVG over tinkered with that squad.. seems he did not have a settled line up.. On the other hand, the dutch team did not have much quality in depth..

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