@ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

[Coach]

Every system is compatible with select players. Seldom does a club have such luxury. So, you're suggesting that, this 3-1-3-3 fluid system would not be possible for all but a dream team, who, could probably play a 2-3-5 and get away with it.

[txj]

Every system is compatible with select players. Seldom does a club have such luxury. So, you're suggesting that, this 3-1-3-3 fluid system would not be possible for all but a dream team, who, could probably play a 2-3-5 and get away with it.

U asked for an EPL team!

The closest would be City's first team, but witout Barry, Clichy and Nastasic

I can tell u that in La Liga, you can do this with Sociedad, Rayo, Valencia, Malaga, Atleti, Athletico etc

[Coach]

Who would play the wide forward roles, assuming City played with such a system?

[txj]

Who would play the wide forward roles, assuming City played with such a system?

There are no real wide forwards in the sytem, just MFs in wide positions, which means any player in a lateral position fulfills such responsibility.

Getting back to City, Nasri would be one, with the Argentine behind...

[Coach]

All outfield players would be midfielders? #Lawd have mercy.

[txj]

All outfield players would be midfielders? #Lawd have mercy.

MFs with specialized functions.

But why MFs?

They endow a team with maximum flexibility in equal proportion in both the attacking and defensive phase of the game, and provide the technical skills to interprete the game at optimal levels...

[Coach]

@BeniTx, please go and drink some water...#you cannot be serious - John McEnroe voice.

Suffice to say, theres probably no team endowed with the requirements for such an outlandish approach. #10 midfielders

[txj]

@BeniTx, please go and drink some water...#you cannot be serious - John McEnroe voice.

Suffice to say, theres probably no team endowed with the requirements for such an outlandish approach. #10 midfielders

Barca actually came quite close to it once. By default though...

But its very doable, afterall Messi has moved from a winger to a #10 and now a false 9...

Free urself from the rigidity of positions!

[Coach]

Man City

Barry
Garcia
Toure
Rodwell
Milner
Nasri
Silva
Sinclair


Mon Beloveds

Coquelin
Diaby
Frimpong
Arteta
Wilshere
Ramsey
Rosicky
Cazorla
Oxlade-Chamberlain
Walcott



Diagnosis: Madness

[Coach]

@BeniTxm, positions bring about discipline and an awareness of responsibility. Total football demands total footballers as a functional prerequisite. There are few in today's game. The shapem 3-1-3-3, could potentially be used in today's arena, but with players in their niches.

The main tactical issue is, susceptibility down the flanks, with possession lost and Bale flying down the left, who responds? Does Frimpong move in to the channel to meet him, or does Ramsey track back diagonally? The latter was the ploy used by Van Gaal vs Milan in '95. Football has changed, alot since then. The wings have become of paramount importance. As glorious as this throwback to the ages is, compatibility in today's game is questionable. The shape would be one conundrum, the fielding of 10 midfielders, is another, one that would exclude almost all teams.

[txj]

@BeniTxm, positions bring about discipline and an awareness of responsibility. Total football demands total footballers as a functional prerequisite. There are few in today's game. The shapem 3-1-3-3, could potentially be used in today's arena, but with players in their niches.

The main tactical issue is, susceptibility down the flanks, with possession lost and Bale flying down the left, who responds? Does Frimpong move in to the channel to meet him, or does Ramsey track back diagonally? The latter was the ploy used by Van Gaal vs Milan in '95. Football has changed, alot since then. The wings have become of paramount importance. As glorious as this throwback to the ages is, compatibility in today's game is questionable. The shape would be one conundrum, the fielding of 10 midfielders, is another, one that would exclude almost all teams.

Positions also bring rigidity, with the idea of man, FIXED in space. Discipline and rigidity are not mutually exclusive concepts. The Russian army was disciplind in Afghanistan as is the US army, yet each was talibanized!

Roles are defined by responsibilities; awareness comes with responsibility and clarity of ideas...

Th system is flexible enough to limit the presence of vast undefended zones. the idea of a 'safety' at either end is to constantly have a spare man around the ball...

The midfielder is the most adaptable player in football; he can do or be used to do anything...

[The YeyeMan]

The one constant in football is that the dimensions of the field is finite. The active territory is even less, and the defensive area further limited.

The passing lanes are defined.

They are defined by the notion of a defender FIXED in space, which allows the forwards to take new positions and such redifine the lanes. Changing this dynamic puts unfamiliar constraints on the player with the ball looking to create, or the striker attempting to create space...It challenges the attacking game by removing the rigidity therein.

In turn training regimes revolve around scenario building round zones of the field and the specific phase of play.

The outfield players, all MFs, are selected to maximize flexibility. No longer the big center back, or the burly striker, each cumbersome, FIXED in space...

Surely the most creative players will find a way to subvert this system. A system which tries to dictate what type of pass they can play... it's an interesting idea. One which would require extremely fit and conditioned players to execute. Still unsure how this would work in practice - how you'd limit the passing options of someone like Xabi Alonso for example....

Any manager attempting this approach would have to get used to a lot of early failures.

[Coach]

The shape alone is susceptible to direct attacks down the flanks, assuming the team loses possession in the final third, Dawson launches a long diagonal from the right centre side of defence, Bale now has the ball wide left. Who stays behind the ball when the team is in possession? What are the possession phase, off the ball moves of the midfielders? Are they involved the attacking phase or stationed in precautionary positions waiting for the ball to break/opposition to launch a counter? ...Assuming they are stationed behind the ball for defensive protection, then surely t'is better for such players to be specialists in the art of defending?

@BeniTx, such a system relies on the circulation of possession, what if possession is lost? One is an ardent fan of the split defensive set-up, the advent of the 1-1 attacking shape (striker, attacking mid), as in the 4-2-3-1, mandates that the central pairing in defence adapts to appreciate this change. The back four should thus become a 3-1 split, that would argue be the next evolution step, now for want of numerical advantage, a 3-2 split would mean a central marker can pick up the solitary forward, the advanced stopper can engage the trequartista and the outer centrehalves can cover the wings. The added defensive midfielder is the insurance policy, able to double wherever needed, drop into the backline, to allow the central centreback to double up in the channels. Alternatively, the free DMC can move wide and supplement the centreback covering that zone.

[txj]

The one constant in football is that the dimensions of the field is finite. The active territory is even less, and the defensive area further limited.

The passing lanes are defined.

They are defined by the notion of a defender FIXED in space, which allows the forwards to take new positions and such redifine the lanes. Changing this dynamic puts unfamiliar constraints on the player with the ball looking to create, or the striker attempting to create space...It challenges the attacking game by removing the rigidity therein.

In turn training regimes revolve around scenario building round zones of the field and the specific phase of play.

The outfield players, all MFs, are selected to maximize flexibility. No longer the big center back, or the burly striker, each cumbersome, FIXED in space...

Surely the most creative players will find a way to subvert this system. A system which tries to dictate what type of pass they can play... it's an interesting idea. One which would require extremely fit and conditioned players to execute. Still unsure how this would work in practice - how you'd limit the passing options of someone like Xabi Alonso for example....

Any manager attempting this approach would have to get used to a lot of early failures.

How do you limit Tom Brady's ability to find Gronkowski downfield?

The coverage sack!

[txj]

There are 2 elements that are decisive in football:

The 1st is decision making. Football is probably the only serious enterprise in which formal education systems do not directly teach decision making.

Th 2nd element is fitness. Fitness systems in football lag behind most of the elite sports, team or individual in the world...

[Coach]

@BeniTx, as intriguing an ideology as yours is, the universality of such an approach would be anything but universal. You're asking for an unparalleled amount of cerebral activity from the players in such as system, especially if insisting upon 10 midfielders occupying the outfield positions. Could you take over Stoke City and line them up in such a shape tomorrow? You will appreciate that, the monopoly of best players would be needed to effect such an approach.

[Coach]

The stopping of Xavi Alonso in such a system would necessitate a pseudo-man marking strategy presumably, in which the nearest person to the ball presses Alonso. Passing options would then be marked by whoever was in that corresponding zone. Alonso would then have to beat his marker in order to maximise his passing options. #I guess...@Tx, its madness.

[kajifu]

Sometimes, for a coach, it is like when the water is calm, calm," he explained, "Then, you drop a stone in the water. Boom!" Giovanni Trapattoni

[The YeyeMan]

The stopping of Xavi Alonso in such a system would necessitate a pseudo-man marking strategy presumably, in which the nearest person to the ball presses Alonso. Passing options would then be marked by whoever was in that corresponding zone. Alonso would then have to beat his marker in order to maximise his passing options. #I guess...@Tx, its madness.

You're reaching all the conclusions I'm reaching wrt man marking - presumably all over the pitch which no serious team does; and the player on the ball having to beat his man if he can't make the pass. If this system were successful it would lead to a renaissance of ball dribblers.

[The YeyeMan]

The stopping of Xavi Alonso in such a system would necessitate a pseudo-man marking strategy presumably, in which the nearest person to the ball presses Alonso. Passing options would then be marked by whoever was in that corresponding zone. Alonso would then have to beat his marker in order to maximise his passing options. #I guess...@Tx, its madness.

You're reaching all the conclusions I'm reaching wrt man marking - presumably all over the pitch which no serious team does; and the player on the ball having to beat his man if he can't make the pass. If this system were successful it would lead to a renaissance of ball dribblers.

Then again, txj did mention a form of triangular pressing of the man on the ball rather than man-marking...

I *think* Siasia's Olympic team may have tried something along similar lines on Messi at the Olympic 2008 Final...

[Coach]

Indeed he did. The triangular pressing unit would overload Alonso, but wouldn't nullify his passing options completely. It would force the early pass, but the two players freed as a result of those joining in the triangular press, could open themselves up for the pass. Its an interesting ideology, one that could never be ubiquitous, rather reserved for use by those with the monopoly of worldly greats, #no surprise Guardiola used this shape in Barca's prime.

[The YeyeMan]

Indeed he did. The triangular pressing unit would overload Alonso, but wouldn't nullify his passing options completely. It would force the early pass, but the two players freed as a result of those joining in the triangular press, could open themselves up for the pass. Its an interesting ideology, one that could never be ubiquitous, rather reserved for use by those with the monopoly of worldly greats, #no surprise Guardiola used this shape in Barca's prime.

That's the other thing we seem to agree on - the players executing this would have to be the elite - no room at the inn for the likes of Henderson, Huddlestone, Taraabt, Cleverley, et al. Only the elite - no wonder Guardiola has rocked up at Bayern.

[txj]

@BeniTx, as intriguing an ideology as yours is, the universality of such an approach would be anything but universal. You're asking for an unparalleled amount of cerebral activity from the players in such as system, especially if insisting upon 10 midfielders occupying the outfield positions. Could you take over Stoke City and line them up in such a shape tomorrow? You will appreciate that, the monopoly of best players would be needed to effect such an approach.

By best plyers u probably mean best known players...

Nah

The focus is on technical players, not the best known players. There are quality technical players all over the world.

For instance, and since we are on thetopic of Alonso, ever heard of Asier Illarramendi?