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@ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!
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Author:  txj [ Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

kalani JR wrote:
Arteta's decision to spread the Tierney/Saka threat instead of playing them both on the same flank.


My thinking, and I could be wrong, is that it was always going to happen.

A player with Saka's technical skills and tactical acumen was always going to be placed in a position to maximize his impact for the team, without the unnecessary burden inherent in a wing back role.

But the key was always to first establish stability in defence, with a settled CB combo.

Author:  Coach [ Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Very interesting debate raging online, Saving Sheffield United. The second season syndrome seems far more virulent in Sheffieldshire than any bat-based lurgies. Granted injury has rid Wilder of many a lieutenant and the loss of Henderson has rippled the once reliable backline, but 5 points from 19 games, screams more than ou es le Deano? Much like Wolves, lost in translation, Hi Ho Sheff United appear to have fallen foul to a mythological curse, leaving them set in stone, incapable of evolution.

Eddie Howe gave an interesting assessment, concluding that sweeping tactical change weren't required, rather a return of key personnel and a little bit of Lady Luck. On their day, few execute a back three as well-drilled as the Blades. Minus Jack O'connell and End Stevens, they're like a Van Dijk-less Liverpool with Adrian in for Alisson, all over the shop.

In true all-English fashion, Wilder has been backed to the hilt by the Great British punditry and bookmakers alike, who have placed his 5 points haul behind Frank Lampard, in the sack race. Is it a matter of players, as many have argued and if so, who can Wilder bring in to Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano effect? Seldom does such quality arrive in such circumstances any more. But there is a bit of Premiership experience available in the loan market that would represent an upgrade and could offer such much needed newness.

Tactically, its gone stale, not least because of injury to stalwarts, but because the element of surprise at seeing the centre-halves overlapping is lost. Where do they go from here, besides down? Can they get anything out of Brewster beyond a Team Solanke badge?

Author:  txj [ Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Coach wrote:
Very interesting debate raging online, Saving Sheffield United. The second season syndrome seems far more virulent in Sheffieldshire than any bat-based lurgies. Granted injury has rid Wilder of many a lieutenant and the loss of Henderson has rippled the once reliable backline, but 5 points from 19 games, screams more than ou es le Deano? Much like Wolves, lost in translation, Hi Ho Sheff United appear to have fallen foul to a mythological curse, leaving them set in stone, incapable of evolution.

Eddie Howe gave an interesting assessment, concluding that sweeping tactical change weren't required, rather a return of key personnel and a little bit of Lady Luck. On their day, few execute a back three as well-drilled as the Blades. Minus Jack O'connell and End Stevens, they're like a Van Dijk-less Liverpool with Adrian in for Alisson, all over the shop.

In true all-English fashion, Wilder has been backed to the hilt by the Great British punditry and bookmakers alike, who have placed his 5 points haul behind Frank Lampard, in the sack race. Is it a matter of players, as many have argued and if so, who can Wilder bring in to Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano effect? Seldom does such quality arrive in such circumstances any more. But there is a bit of Premiership experience available in the loan market that would represent an upgrade and could offer such much needed newness.

Tactically, its gone stale, not least because of injury to stalwarts, but because the element of surprise at seeing the centre-halves overlapping is lost. Where do they go from here, besides down? Can they get anything out of Brewster beyond a Team Solanke badge?


Always thought they needed someone in the middle, able to play between the lines, but quick on delivery/decision making, to help their breakaway game.

Like Buendia from Norwich.

Author:  Coach [ Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Agree on the link man, wasn’t sure how they intended to get anything other than absolute obsolescence out of Brewster without the slide-rule passer. Buendia would’ve been a good shout, but his stock is decent and has suitors higher up the table. Still a role that needs filling.

Another area for attention is wingback, could one of the two be more winger than fullback, pushed slightly higher, with the overlapping CB more a feature on one side, with more lateral movement from attacking midfielders offering the overload on the other?

Plenty of industry and not enough craft.

Author:  txj [ Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Coach wrote:
Agree on the link man, wasn’t sure how they intended to get anything other than absolute obsolescence out of Brewster without the slide-rule passer. Buendia would’ve been a good shout, but his stock is decent and has suitors higher up the table. Still a role that needs filling.

Another area for attention is wingback, could one of the two be more winger than fullback, pushed slightly higher, with the overlapping CB more a feature on one side, with more lateral movement from attacking midfielders offering the overload on the other?

Plenty of industry and not enough craft.


That really is the bottomline. He could've sharpened things up in the wingback role from the championship...

Author:  Coach [ Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

With the movement of Lundstram and Norwood, and Fleck to some extent, there was certainly room to manoeuvre at wingback. Could they have been bolder with the recruitment and deployment of actual wingers in this role? The overlapping CBs could equally invert runs in the knowledge that their wideman was able enough to beat his man.

A '10' was imperative, moving to a 3-5-1-1, with Norwood or Berge flanked by Fleck and a little more creativity would've helped.

Can they stay up? If Wilder pulls it off, irrespective of what happens at the other end, its the achievement of the season.

Author:  Coach [ Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

The Low Block, Klopp's kryptonite?

Whats the answer to the centrally compacted two banks of four, or 6-2-2 preferred by the master of ancient practices, the constant Bus Conductor, Msr Jose Mourinho. Perhaps the latter has already been answered given recent results. The former remains a conundrum, more for Klopp than any other. Had Origi dispatched, the contest could perhaps have been entirely different, or would it? Burnley would've kept to their mould, looked for the odd counter and challenged set pieces with grit and gusto. Thus the question remains, how best to break down the low block?

One would argue, as teams start to deepen and condense their defensive shape, the reflex reaction in the the attacking side should be both vertical compaction and lateral expansion of the field. Higher defensive lines and chalk on boots in the wide areas. Liverpool managed to get Trent, less so Robertson in decent crossing positions, but both were failed by poor delivery or lack of central options. The stereotypical movement of the front-three was predictable, inverted runs from Mane and AOC, easily addressed by the fullbacks marking the half space. Origi dropping deep was an exercise in futility.

Philosophical maybe, but perhaps the answer lies in reciprocation, a low block, a high charge. Four sitting deep, four pushing further forward. Rather than use the flanks to create chances, perhaps the flanks can be used to reopen the half-space. Less emphasis on the delivery from wide and more on the disruption the ball out wide can cause.

vs the low block, greater consideration should be given to having two up front. Central forwards making outward runs into the half-spaces, wingers holding maximum width and a central midfield stepping making reactive movements depending on where the secondary-space (vacated defensive spaces) opens.

Tactically, it would be absolutely Bohemian, something to have the greatest misinterpreter of Thiago Motta's manifesto balk.

Author:  Coach [ Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

In addendum - There was a time when Guardiola would have his City side in a 2-3-5 in the possession phase, all sorts of disarray was sowed and many a low block blown to smithereens. Leroy Sane high wide left was an absolute trump card.

Author:  txj [ Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Coach wrote:
The Low Block, Klopp's kryptonite?

Whats the answer to the centrally compacted two banks of four, or 6-2-2 preferred by the master of ancient practices, the constant Bus Conductor, Msr Jose Mourinho. Perhaps the latter has already been answered given recent results. The former remains a conundrum, more for Klopp than any other. Had Origi dispatched, the contest could perhaps have been entirely different, or would it? Burnley would've kept to their mould, looked for the odd counter and challenged set pieces with grit and gusto. Thus the question remains, how best to break down the low block?

One would argue, as teams start to deepen and condense their defensive shape, the reflex reaction in the the attacking side should be both vertical compaction and lateral expansion of the field. Higher defensive lines and chalk on boots in the wide areas. Liverpool managed to get Trent, less so Robertson in decent crossing positions, but both were failed by poor delivery or lack of central options. The stereotypical movement of the front-three was predictable, inverted runs from Mane and AOC, easily addressed by the fullbacks marking the half space. Origi dropping deep was an exercise in futility.

Philosophical maybe, but perhaps the answer lies in reciprocation, a low block, a high charge. Four sitting deep, four pushing further forward. Rather than use the flanks to create chances, perhaps the flanks can be used to reopen the half-space. Less emphasis on the delivery from wide and more on the disruption the ball out wide can cause.

vs the low block, greater consideration should be given to having two up front. Central forwards making outward runs into the half-spaces, wingers holding maximum width and a central midfield stepping making reactive movements depending on where the secondary-space (vacated defensive spaces) opens.

Tactically, it would be absolutely Bohemian, something to have the greatest misinterpreter of Thiago Motta's manifesto balk.



Thiago IMO is both a solution and a constraint.

Constraint in the short term from unfamiliarity with surrounding and not enough understanding from teammates.

Solution in terms of technical edge he provides, but one which requires a different kind of movement from front trio, and ESP, greater patience. Not so much the quick delivery to the front trio, but the sudden delivery and a different kinda movement.

Would be quite interesting to see the dynamic between Thiago and Diogo when he returns...

That's in part what Hamman was referencing...

Author:  Coach [ Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Agreed, in the case of Thiago, adaptation is required on all parts, by the man and the machine. With Firmino struggling for form and becoming all the more obvious in the approach, the addition of an extra-midfielder would be an approach worth considering. Again, with the half-space play of Mane and Salah and the tremendous width offered by Robertson and TAA, would Liverpool lose more than they'd gain switching to a 4-2-2-2 whilst awaiting Jota's recovery and Bobby's rediscovery of form?

Thiago further forward, Wijnaldum in the 8 role similar to that occupied clad in the beautiful orange. A double-pivot in from of the stand-in centrebacks would offer a little more security. Agree with the idea of restoring Fabinho to midfield alongside Henderson, decent centre-half but at the expense of losing a monster in the middle of the park. The idea of a Phillips and Williams pairing is frightening through sheer inexperience and the sizeable stepdown from the first choice partnership, thus making Fabinho a must. Wijnaldum drops back opening up a centre-AM slot for Oxlade-Chamberlain perhaps, granted form and fitness are both major issues with the latter.

Where's Keita mind you?

Author:  The YeyeMan [ Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Coach wrote:
Where's Keita mind you?

Picked up another minor injury in training after the Palace thrashing so Klopp and the medical team decided to allow him to recover fully before returning. As Liverpool are covered in midfield it makes sense to give Keita time.

Author:  Coach [ Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

After watching the monumental collapse of 10 man Southampton, can't help but wonder, is the 1-man advantage so significant or was it more a case of Ralf's shortcomings when crisis waits at the gate?

Is two banks of four with a solitary forward as remedial as presumed? Surely this is anachronistic, with the 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 orthodoxy, it doesn't offer as much protection in the central areas. The onus should be on forcing the opponent wide into crossing positions, where numerical parity is restored. Seldom will a side throw all 10 outfield players forward, more often than not, centrebacks stay back, or atleast two will sit deeper with a midfielder waiting to block off the counters. In that case the 10 vs 11, more often than not an 8 vs 8/9, if allow for the easily bypassed forward in the 4-4-1 and the aforementioned defensive setup of the team with numerical advantage.

Rather than two banks of four, which often forfeits the flanks in favour of compaction, one would argue, a wide 6-3 formation would serve better purpose.

vs. Man City, in archetypal archaic fashion, Mourinho (albeit with 11 vs 11), went full Catenaccio, a condensed back four, but with would be attacking wingers effectively screwing the bolt in by defending the wide areas. The midfield shuttled left to right with movement of the ball and once recovered, they hit the focal point (Kane in a deeper role) or broke at speed with Son.

The half spaces between fullback and centre half were defended by the tucked in fullbacks without compromising defence in the wide areas, courtesy of wide positioning of the wingers.

Granted Soton were down to 10 men for a long period and missing a number of first teamers, but 9 should never be happening. Certainly not twice.

Author:  txj [ Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Coach wrote:
After watching the monumental collapse of 10 man Southampton, can't help but wonder, is the 1-man advantage so significant or was it more a case of Ralf's shortcomings when crisis waits at the gate?

Is two banks of four with a solitary forward as remedial as presumed? Surely this is anachronistic, with the 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 orthodoxy, it doesn't offer as much protection in the central areas. The onus should be on forcing the opponent wide into crossing positions, where numerical parity is restored. Seldom will a side throw all 10 outfield players forward, more often than not, centrebacks stay back, or atleast two will sit deeper with a midfielder waiting to block off the counters. In that case the 10 vs 11, more often than not an 8 vs 8/9, if allow for the easily bypassed forward in the 4-4-1 and the aforementioned defensive setup of the team with numerical advantage.

Rather than two banks of four, which often forfeits the flanks in favour of compaction, one would argue, a wide 6-3 formation would serve better purpose.

vs. Man City, in archetypal archaic fashion, Mourinho (albeit with 11 vs 11), went full Catenaccio, a condensed back four, but with would be attacking wingers effectively screwing the bolt in by defending the wide areas. The midfield shuttled left to right with movement of the ball and once recovered, they hit the focal point (Kane in a deeper role) or broke at speed with Son.

The half spaces between fullback and centre half were defended by the tucked in fullbacks without compromising defence in the wide areas, courtesy of wide positioning of the wingers.

Granted Soton were down to 10 men for a long period and missing a number of first teamers, but 9 should never be happening. Certainly not twice.


The real question is, can a wolf lose its predatory hunter instincts?

Its not in the formation son...In the end those are nothing but numerals...

Ralf has in hunting, invested the whole enchilada. Nothing left but the tacos!

And they sure are crunchy :rotf:

Author:  Coach [ Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

@Tx, returning to this debate, are Soton hunter, hunted or some ill-conceived hydric, effectively Jacking all trades, whilst mastering none. The assertion that formations are mere numbers on a page is dismissive of the influence of those very numbers on proceedings. Is mentality defined by the method or the man? Watching PSG vs Barca, the switch to a back three/five, brought greater attacking impetus from Dest and Alba, much a consequence of the numbers behind (s Lengelet attested). Perhaps circumstance ordained the full throttle approach. Battered at home, pride to restore, what else but a full court press, all guns blazing like Bush invading Iraq. Which leads on to the next question, where next for the tactical wheel of fortune?

The 4-3-3 evolved to 4-2-3-1, the 4-1-4-1 has gained favour in some quarters and the 3-5-2 has reared its head once more. In fact, the popularity of the latter across Europe, in one of its many motifs, is very interesting. With added emphasis on playing out from the back, the third CB adds an additional passing option which isn't as easily countered as the pass master dropping deep to collect the ball. With out and out forwards a dying species (cue Man City of late), is the game closing in on the Mayweathering mass midfield of BeniTxing ideology?

Author:  Coach [ Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

...Anyone clocking in to follow Big Valerian Steel Ismael at Barnsley? Throwback added to a 3-4-3, devastating at that level. All about the second ball, as aesthetically pleasing as Whoopi Goldberg on crack, but by George it’s effective. Raking long balls launched from the back and then a press as aggressive as a disgruntled housewife going over a wayward husband’s Sunday best. Aggressive. Very interesting.

Author:  txj [ Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Coach wrote:
@Tx, returning to this debate, are Soton hunter, hunted or some ill-conceived hydric, effectively Jacking all trades, whilst mastering none. The assertion that formations are mere numbers on a page is dismissive of the influence of those very numbers on proceedings. Is mentality defined by the method or the man? Watching PSG vs Barca, the switch to a back three/five, brought greater attacking impetus from Dest and Alba, much a consequence of the numbers behind (s Lengelet attested). Perhaps circumstance ordained the full throttle approach. Battered at home, pride to restore, what else but a full court press, all guns blazing like Bush invading Iraq. Which leads on to the next question, where next for the tactical wheel of fortune?

The 4-3-3 evolved to 4-2-3-1, the 4-1-4-1 has gained favour in some quarters and the 3-5-2 has reared its head once more. In fact, the popularity of the latter across Europe, in one of its many motifs, is very interesting. With added emphasis on playing out from the back, the third CB adds an additional passing option which isn't as easily countered as the pass master dropping deep to collect the ball. With out and out forwards a dying species (cue Man City of late), is the game closing in on the Mayweathering mass midfield of BeniTxing ideology?


In time bro...give it time...Its as sure as day to come...

Look at the buccaneering kings of Elland Road; anybody can play anywhere says el loco of Rosario, without the central!

Its not about positions but roles.
And role definition, a function of the imagination.

...Gini Wijnaldum central striker vs Barcelona at Camp Nou

Is he:
- a striker?
- a midfielder? or
- a defender?

Author:  Coach [ Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Along the road towards the mass midfieldered 3-4-3, there will be some transitional species, tactical archaeopteryxes...is one in play at Chelsea at present? Werner offering huge width wide left, Ziyech tucked in on the right, Havertz floating, roaming, not a CF in sight, every bit a 3-4-3-0, or perhaps 3-7-0 with the frontline more attacking midfielder/advanced winger, than outright forwards. That said however, Chelsea have benefited from some real throwback centrebacking from Rudiger. Wouldn’t get that with a midfield Fancy Dan in there.

Author:  txj [ Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Coach wrote:
Along the road towards the mass midfieldered 3-4-3, there will be some transitional species, tactical archaeopteryxes...is one in play at Chelsea at present? Werner offering huge width wide left, Ziyech tucked in on the right, Havertz floating, roaming, not a CF in sight, every bit a 3-4-3-0, or perhaps 3-7-0 with the frontline more attacking midfielder/advanced winger, than outright forwards. That said however, Chelsea have benefited from some real throwback centrebacking from Rudiger. Wouldn’t get that with a midfield Fancy Dan in there.


Concepts! Concepts, bro...

The concept of defending is about limiting/denying space, not about "quacking" people :rotf:

Quote:
Xabi Alonso: "I don't think tackling is a quality. Tackling is a last resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to."

Author:  Bigpokey24 [ Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

^ how about this defending

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