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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:42 pm 
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cchinukw wrote:
Scipio Africanus wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
When was the last time anyone saw SE terrorising a team constantly like this?

Even Omuero in his nappies was looking like Baresi. Some players were in the local league. Oshinawa was plying his trade in Israel.

Kai. God bless the Boss in his sleep. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


I'm telling you, watching what Rohr is currently serving us is like our football going backwards. Look how we dismantled Mali, both Mali and BF had one foray into our box the entire 90 minutes. We controlled the game passing and moving the ball from the back to the midfield sumptuously. Imagine we were complaining about that soccer, but some of us want to praise what we are currently seeing...crazy. I could accept it if it was working but his style clearly hasn't worked in 2 tournaments now? I mean if we are always sitting back defending when will our fans get to do the Nigerian version of the Mexican "Ole" as we keep possession and pass around the desperate opponents? I mean our fans started doing it in the finals as early as minute 21 imagine! :clap: :clap: :clap:


You are using Mali and Burkina Faso as your examples? Mali?!? and Burkina Faso?!? OK. I was a HUGE fan of the big boss :thumbs: too but even he could not get us to outpossess the likes of Argentina and Croatia. If you argue on this point I will pull out the match stats from our games against Bosnia and Argentina, which were coached by the big boss.

Bottom line, we do not have the players to out possess teams like Argentina, Croatia, Brazil, Germany, France, even England. We just don't! :idea: Even France with Pogba, Matuidi and Kante in their midfield were wise enough to cut their cloth according to their size and you guys are here blowing fufu fueled fantasies and delusions of grandeur about out possessing teams and "dominating games" . :laugh:

Erm we lost to Madagascar this year.


Losing and dominating possession are two different things. Pick one side of the fence and argue coherently abeg! Croatia dominated possession against France in the WC final but still lost the game, just like we dominated possession against Madagascar 61% to their 39%, but still lost the game. Wow look at that! We dominated possession while being coached by Rohr! As expected when facing weaker teams like Mali and Madagascar. What are you guys saying again? :laugh:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=539291

cchinukw wrote:

Any team at the tournament has earned a right to be there.

Nonetheless, the top seeds should rise to the top.

That year, BF was the dark horse. What was wrong with Mali at the time in your view? They were clearly one of the toughest on the continent. Come on now. Haba!


As I have shown you above we do dominate possession when we face the likes of Mali and Madagascar, even under Rohr so I am not sure what your point is.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:13 am 
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Scipio come on now, we played a stacked Ivory Coast the same way and beat them before Mali and BF, and BF beat a stacked Ghana team to get to the finals, so it’s quite unfair looking down at our worthy opponents.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:18 am 
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the same idiots that was calling for Keshi head in the group stage CC cup and 2014 world cup are now hailing him lol DELUSIONAL Clowns. when rohr leaves and they start picking on a new coach, they will reference rohr games vs cameroun, Algeria in wcq etc to hail him


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:05 am 
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maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
The last time we won the ANC we controlled games, played with large possession of the ball, we just have yet to show we can win playing like this, but we shall see...

Let's test our theory
You can check out the Ngr v B'Faso (Part 1) thread yourself:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=230177


I'd rather you re-watch the game, I've seen it so many times, and even commented on how CE was super wrong (as always b/c of real time game tension) about what happened, definition of controlling a game, the victory was never in doubt once we scored even with a forced change to our LB we still held firm control:

Nigeria vs Burkina Faso (Final)

First Chunk: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxf9on ... nk-1_sport
Second Chunk: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxf9ou ... rt&start=3
Third Chunk: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxf9pb ... nk-3_sport
Thanks for the links maceo4, but I was specifically referring to the first encounter (i.e. 'Part 1'), not the final.
Remember we had already met them in the group phase and most of us were not happy with how we played. It ended 1-1, Ambrose was red carded and it was just a mess. We even conceded in the dying minutes, the very 'Argentinian/Algerian crime' Rohr has been relentlessly crucified for :lol: :lol: :lol:

My point is that "controlling games" with "large possession" you refer to is simply nostalgia talking. Even if it was the case in the AFCON 2013 final which is itself debatable, at other times it just wasn't always the case.
Match stats in Africa back then were not recorded, but if they were you'd probably find that the margins were quite close.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
The last time we won the ANC we controlled games, played with large possession of the ball, we just have yet to show we can win playing like this, but we shall see...

Let's test our theory
You can check out the Ngr v B'Faso (Part 1) thread yourself:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=230177


I'd rather you re-watch the game, I've seen it so many times, and even commented on how CE was super wrong (as always b/c of real time game tension) about what happened, definition of controlling a game, the victory was never in doubt once we scored even with a forced change to our LB we still held firm control:

Nigeria vs Burkina Faso (Final)

First Chunk: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxf9on ... nk-1_sport
Second Chunk: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxf9ou ... rt&start=3
Third Chunk: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxf9pb ... nk-3_sport
Thanks for the links maceo4, but I was specifically referring to the first encounter (i.e. 'Part 1'), not the final.
Remember we had already met them in the group phase and most of us were not happy with how we played. It ended 1-1, Ambrose was red carded and it was just a mess. We even conceded in the dying minutes, the very 'Argentinian/Algerian crime' Rohr has been relentlessly crucified for :lol: :lol: :lol:

My point is that "controlling games" with "large possession" you refer to is simply nostalgia talking. Even if it was the case in the AFCON 2013 final which is itself debatable, at other times it just wasn't always the case.
Match stats in Africa back then were not recorded, but if they were you'd probably find that the margins were quite close.


I'm sure the possession stats were quite close with us probably shading it a bit, but contrast that with 70/30 from the Brazil game, thats a huge difference. My issue is not necessarily with the stats but more so with how we set up to play. Keshi always set up his team to play positively rather than just trying to soak up pressure and hit on the counter (Rohr's preference). I'm wondering if that suits Nigerian players because we've won playing the Keshi way by trying to get on the ball and play it around, but we haven't won the soaking pressure way, we've actually faltered in 2 big games because of that strategy and how it tires out our players combined with Rohr's penchant to not make subs in a timely fashion.

That said, Keshi's style can lead to big loses like against Spain in 2013 who would out-possess any team so it might have made sense to try to soak up their pressure for majority of the game, but playing open lead to a 3-0 loss against the best of the best. But this Brazilian team we played is no Spain of 2013 and Senegal were able to have much more ball possession against a fresher team. But that said here are some stats I found, we did possess the ball longer in the prior games, see stats:

Mexico friendly:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=363973

Tahiti game:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=365340

Uruguay game:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=365332

Spain game:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=365329

Again, not saying possession stats are the be all and end all, but I'm more focused on a style of play that suits our players the best which they can execute to achieve results. Is it more so Rohr's extra conservative style, or Keshi's more open possession style, or a combo of the two...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:13 pm 
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maceo4, we did not play open against Spain in that game that we lost 0-3 in 2013. Spain had 64% possession to our 36%.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=539291

Again we simply don't have the players to go head to head possession wise against the likes of Spain, Argentina, Brazil and co. Did not then, do not now.

Best strategy to win against these teams is to do what Germany did to beat Argentina 4-0 in 2010 WC, or do what Netherlands did to beat Spain 5-1 in the 2014 WC. Counter, counter. counter.

When we play against the likes of Tahiti, Mali, even Uruguay who are not a possession based team, ehn heeeeen! We can possess the ball to our hearts content

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:35 pm 
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Scipio Africanus wrote:
maceo4, we did not play open against Spain in that game that we lost 0-3 in 2013. Spain had 64% possession to our 36%.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=539291

Again we simply don't have the players to go head to head possession wise against the likes of Spain, Argentina and co. Did not then, do not now.


We did try to play Keshi's way (abi you don forget Mikel's run my race) but Spain of 2013 is going to out-possess any opponent, take a look at some of their previous games.

vs Uruguay they had 75% possession to Uruguays 25%
https://www.espn.com/soccer/match?gameId=365335

vs power house France they again had 75% possession to France's 25%
https://www.espn.com/soccer/match?gameId=334706

This Brazil we just played is NOTHING like that Spain when it comes to possession. If you don't fall back into a shell like we did you could have had a good amount of the ball as Senegal showed us. And why do we keep ignoring that Senegal showed you can have decent possession against a fresher Brazil team? Its all about how you choose to approach the game...does our approach suit our players?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:57 pm 
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maceo4 wrote:
Scipio Africanus wrote:
maceo4, we did not play open against Spain in that game that we lost 0-3 in 2013. Spain had 64% possession to our 36%.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/matchstats?gameId=539291

Again we simply don't have the players to go head to head possession wise against the likes of Spain, Argentina and co. Did not then, do not now.


We did try to play Keshi's way (abi you don forget Mikel's run my race) but Spain of 2013 is going to out-possess any opponent, take a look at some of their previous games.

vs Uruguay they had 75% possession to Uruguays 25%
https://www.espn.com/soccer/match?gameId=365335

vs power house France they again had 75% possession to France's 25%
https://www.espn.com/soccer/match?gameId=334706

This Brazil we just played is NOTHING like that Spain when it comes to possession. If you don't fall back into a shell like we did you could have had a good amount of the ball as Senegal showed us. And why do we keep ignoring that Senegal showed you can have decent possession against a fresher Brazil team? Its all about how you choose to approach the game...does our approach suit our players?


I think it does. I want the mentality of the SE to be "defense first". I really enjoyed watching the defensive shift put in by the SE against Brazil. That was very sweet to watch.

I want a stingy defensive mindset. We get that right, we can hang with anybody in this world.

Now what we need to do is hone our skills to ruthlessly capitalize on the defensive mistakes of others. If we can do that, we have many trophies ahead of us.

As the great man Dennis Rodman said: Offense sells tickets, but defense :thumbs: wins championships. :clap: :clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:16 pm 
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I think one of the reasons we (and other African teams) were forever derogatorily referred to as 'naive' was because of our defence. It all started from Zaire in 1974 and we didn't recover from that label for maybe 40 years.

Even our golden generation of 74-78 made fundamental errors which if made today, we wouldn't tolerate. That team was the 'Golden Generation' because of the midfield and attack, NOT the defence by any means.
Eguavon, Oliseh, Taribo, Oparaku all contributed their own fair share to errors and questionable defensive play that I remember.

We were not known for our organised defence even if we had individual defenders.

Maybe that was the price we paid for our exciting counterattacking play, but our defence has always been a problem.

Now we have a defence (and some will blindly deny this, come what may), it seems we are again complaining that we are not pushing forward enough.

I am not sure which part of our team was responsible for holding back a Brazil with 68% possession to 7 goals on target and just one goal.
Maybe our resident Babalawo :idea:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:04 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
I think one of the reasons we (and other African teams) were forever derogatorily referred to as 'naive' was because of our defence. It all started from Zaire in 1974 and we didn't recover from that label for maybe 40 years.

Even our golden generation of 74-78 made fundamental errors which if made today, we wouldn't tolerate. That team was the 'Golden Generation' because of the midfield and attack, NOT the defence by any means.
Eguavon, Oliseh, Taribo, Oparaku all contributed their own fair share to errors and questionable defensive play that I remember.

We were not known for our organised defence even if we had individual defenders.

Maybe that was the price we paid for our exciting counterattacking play, but our defence has always been a problem.

Now we have a defence (and some will blindly deny this, come what may), it seems we are again complaining that we are not pushing forward enough.

I am not sure which part of our team was responsible for holding back a Brazil with 68% possession to 7 goals on target and just one goal.
Maybe our resident Babalawo :idea:


Should be easy to present stats on how we are defending better now abi? Can we compare 2013 ANC to this past ANC if you think we are suddenly defending better. Even the last WC compared to 2014 one...No matter how you want to slice it both offensively and defensively, possession wise etc Keshia team was better.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:21 am 
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maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
I think one of the reasons we (and other African teams) were forever derogatorily referred to as 'naive' was because of our defence. It all started from Zaire in 1974 and we didn't recover from that label for maybe 40 years.

Even our golden generation of 74-78 made fundamental errors which if made today, we wouldn't tolerate. That team was the 'Golden Generation' because of the midfield and attack, NOT the defence by any means.
Eguavon, Oliseh, Taribo, Oparaku all contributed their own fair share to errors and questionable defensive play that I remember.

We were not known for our organised defence even if we had individual defenders.

Maybe that was the price we paid for our exciting counterattacking play, but our defence has always been a problem.

Now we have a defence (and some will blindly deny this, come what may), it seems we are again complaining that we are not pushing forward enough.

I am not sure which part of our team was responsible for holding back a Brazil with 68% possession to 7 goals on target and just one goal.
Maybe our resident Babalawo :idea:


Should be easy to present stats on how we are defending better now abi? Can we compare 2013 ANC to this past ANC if you think we are suddenly defending better. Even the last WC compared to 2014 one... No matter how you want to slice it both offensively and defensively, possession wise etc Keshia team was better.
Isn't that what I tried to find without success? I just told you that it seems match stats from AFCON 2013 are not available. If you can find them, just great. I am here to exchange views and information, nothing else. Moreover, I don't see what the 'sudden' improvement is, if I am making a comparison between the 94-98 generation and today's generation, a gap of 25 years.

Meanwhile, I have already shared the stats from the 2014 WC elsewhere, unless you are not keeping up with the debate. But here goes again. This was in response to cchukw's dubious statement that our "defensive problems and turnovers" (as shown in our game stats vs Brazil) ...." are as old as Rohr's appointment".
This proves otherwise.
Damunk wrote:
fabio wrote:
Damunk wrote:
Older, actually. :rotf:

Since we are now looking at World Class opposition as our benchmark:

Ngr v Iran 2014

Possession
69% v 31%
Shots On Target
4 v 1
Passes
485 v 211

Nig v Argentina 2014
Possession:
39% v 61%
Shots on Target
3 v 13
Passes
314 v 525

Ngr v Bosnia 2014
Possession
40% v 60%
Shots On Target
9 v 7
Passes
335 v 495

Ngr v France 2014

Possession
47% v 53%
Shots On Target
2 v 5
Passes
332 v 371

Unfortunately, there are no match stats from AFCON 2014 to compare.
Oh....and we didn't qualify in 2015 and 2017 :taunt: :taunt: :taunt:



It´s imperative to provide the whole stats for the games played at the WC 2014. I have included the game against Iran as well.

The bottom line is Nigeria qualified for the Second Round. Which Rohr failed to...
I don't think Iran qualifies as "World class opposition" and thats why it was overlooked.

You are complaining about domination of Rohr's team by Brazil and you are using Keshi's game vs Iran of all countries to show how the SE used to dominate the opposition.
What happened to comparing like for like?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=297576&start=23

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:28 pm 
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Damunk you know the scores of each game at all these tournaments we can start there, better defending means less goals conceded at the least Abi? Now we know that ain’t true, so what other stat are you looking for?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:27 pm 
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maceo4 wrote:
Damunk you know the scores of each game at all these tournaments we can start there, better defending means less goals conceded at the least Abi? Now we know that ain’t true, so what other stat are you looking for?
This is why I say every game should be taken and assessed on its own merit rather than making blanket conclusions when it suits one's argument.

The big furore over the Brazil match stats started this whole thing: 68% to 32%.
But if, as you are saying now, the scores are the most important thing, then why is everyone ignoring the 1-1 scoreline vs Brazil, clearly showing that despite their 68% possession they failed to break down our defence and scored only one goal and managed only 7 shots on target?
This has been my point all along.

All my references to various games whether or not involving Nigeria are to illustrate that possession is not the be and end all of a game.

This is what you get when people keep ducking and diving, chopping and changing their argument just to try and justify their argument that we have been in decline "since the advent of Rohr" - all this despite evidence to the contrary. It seems you people have boiled his tenure down to the Argentina, Madagascar and Algeria losses - 3 specific games out of 30+ games in charge. Two admittedly key games, one almost meaningless.

That's why we are here now - subjectivity vs factual evidence.

I'd much rather people just came out and say they don't like his white face, or the colour of his teeth when he opens his mouth. :lol:

There is no convincing factual argument that has been made to show he has done a bad job, talk less the ridiculous claims that we have never been such a terrible national team play so badly bla-blah-blah.


Maybe you can do a P W D L GF GA &Pts table comparing Rohr's 35 or so games with those of Keshi and any other coach that has been in charge for that number of games.

Again, without even checking I can bet my mortgage that the results will not back up you people's outrageous claims. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:04 pm 
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john12 wrote:
the same idiots that was calling for Keshi head in the group stage CC cup and 2014 world cup are now hailing him lol DELUSIONAL Clowns. when rohr leaves and they start picking on a new coach, they will reference rohr games vs cameroun, Algeria in wcq etc to hail him

Happy birthday to Musa of Saudi Arabia. :tic:

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