Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
The key is why UEFA should own the CL exclusively.

They do not own the clubs. Do not own the players. Do not pay any wages to players.

The clubs who own the players want to run their own competition, just like they do in the PL.

The UEFA stakeholders are the various FAs. That is why it is called the confederation of football associations.
B/c it belongs to them. They started it and they organise it.

Fifa doesn't won the national teams or the players, but organises the WC.

The clubs don't own the players. The players are employees. The players/coaches are up in arms for not being consulted about the Super League.

Uefa's stakeholders are clubs, FAs, etc. That's why they all have a say in how the money is shared.
At this point you are arguing with yourself!

UEFA can own the CL b/c they started it. But the point is, WHY would they own a competition of this nature exclusively?

Why would they oppose a group of clubs seeking to create their own competition?

Especially as the clubs own the players. They do, that's a fact- contractually and legally. Nobody owns another human; that's just another straw man argument...

The WC is a competition between NTs owned by the FAs, who collectively constitute FIFA, thru their various confederations. FA---UEFA---FIFA, all stakeholders. The FAs constitute UEFA (in Europe as in other confederations), who in turn constitute FIFA, and the WC is a competition amongst their NTs.

That is totally different from the relationship between clubs and UEFA, a regulatory relationship.
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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cic old boy wrote:
balo wrote:Chelsea fans letting the club know how they feel
:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: Real fans not groupies. Take your f@cking money and shove it up your arse! :thumbs:

Interesting that at no point here do these supposedly hardcore Chelsea fans, rich in the history(?) of the club ever say Abramovic out...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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Ugbowo wrote:I love seeing ego maniacs get egg on their face.

Txj all over this thread calling die hard fans ignoramus.

Nonsense.

They are indeed ignorant, which is why UEFA is able to very easily and very successfully play them against the owners of their clubs.

They are able to use the institutions that are supposedly on the side of the trodden masses, including politicians eager to align themselves with 'populist' slogans, and pundits who work for the very same stations that benefit from the status quo, to easily hoodwink the masses.

Its the same brexit hoodwink all over again.

But the double standards are rife all over the place.

Why are Chelsea fans not calling for Abramovic to get out of their club?

Why are Spurs fans not asking Levy to f/off their club?
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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txj wrote:
At this point you are arguing with yourself!

UEFA can own the CL b/c they started it. But the point is, WHY would they own a competition of this nature exclusively?

Why would they oppose a group of clubs seeking to create their own competition?

Especially as the clubs own the players. They do, that's a fact- contractually and legally. Nobody owns another human; that's just another straw man argument...

The WC is a competition between NTs owned by the FAs, who collectively constitute FIFA, thru their various confederations. FA---UEFA---FIFA, all stakeholders. The FAs constitute UEFA (in Europe as in other confederations), who in turn constitute FIFA, and the WC is a competition amongst their NTs.

That is totally different from the relationship between clubs and UEFA, a regulatory relationship.
They have every right to be against competition that would weaken their own competition.

The clubs don't own players. They employ them and as it is the players that fans come to watch, the players should have been consulted on this dumb super league.

Uefa regulates European competition and also runs European competitions. Fifa runs the world game, which includes running world football competitions, not only between national teams, but also the World Club Cup - based on winners of competitions run by continental federations. The key here is that qualification for any of these is not by invitation, but by performance on the pitch. That's why there is near unanimous rejection of the barmy super league Americanisation of football.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by cic old boy »

txj wrote:
Interesting that at no point here do these supposedly hardcore Chelsea fans, rich in the history(?) of the club ever say Abramovic out...
Let him try to play all home games in Russia.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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txj wrote:

They are indeed ignorant, which is why UEFA is able to very easily and very successfully play them against the owners of their clubs.

They are able to use the institutions that are supposedly on the side of the trodden masses, including politicians eager to align themselves with 'populist' slogans, and pundits who work for the very same stations that benefit from the status quo, to easily hoodwink the masses.

Its the same brexit hoodwink all over again.

But the double standards are rife all over the place.

Why are Chelsea fans not calling for Abramovic to get out of their club?

Why are Spurs fans not asking Levy to f/off their club?
You clearly don't have a clue.

No fan listens to Uefa. Very few know who the Uefa president is.

Spurs fans have been protesting against Levy for about a week now. https://talksport.com/football/869515/t ... er-league/

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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
At this point you are arguing with yourself!

UEFA can own the CL b/c they started it. But the point is, WHY would they own a competition of this nature exclusively?

Why would they oppose a group of clubs seeking to create their own competition?

Especially as the clubs own the players. They do, that's a fact- contractually and legally. Nobody owns another human; that's just another straw man argument...

The WC is a competition between NTs owned by the FAs, who collectively constitute FIFA, thru their various confederations. FA---UEFA---FIFA, all stakeholders. The FAs constitute UEFA (in Europe as in other confederations), who in turn constitute FIFA, and the WC is a competition amongst their NTs.

That is totally different from the relationship between clubs and UEFA, a regulatory relationship.
They have every right to be against competition that would weaken their own competition.

The clubs don't own players. They employ them and as it is the players that fans come to watch, the players should have been consulted on this dumb super league.

Uefa regulates European competition and also runs European competitions. Fifa runs the world game, which includes running world football competitions, not only between national teams, but also the World Club Cup - based on winners of competitions run by continental federations. The key here is that qualification for any of these is not by invitation, but by performance on the pitch. That's why there is near unanimous rejection of the barmy super league Americanisation of football.

Which is precisely what anti-competitive laws are designed to protest!

By the same token, if what you say is something to be taken serious, Microsoft would prevent another company from emerging in the software industry...

Like I said, you are arguing with yourself here...but at least you came out to state your true motive- the anti American sentiment above.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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txj wrote:

Which is precisely what anti-competitive laws are designed to protest!

By the same token, if what you say is something to be taken serious, Microsoft would prevent another company from emerging in the software industry...

Like I said, you are arguing with yourself here...but at least you came out to state your true motive- the anti American sentiment above.
A closed league is also potentially in breach of anti-competition laws.

Microsoft would prevent you working for them and another software company. If you want to form your own league, expect to be banned from Uefa competitions!

When all else fails, you can always rely on the old "anti-American" chestnut.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:

Which is precisely what anti-competitive laws are designed to protest!

By the same token, if what you say is something to be taken serious, Microsoft would prevent another company from emerging in the software industry...

Like I said, you are arguing with yourself here...but at least you came out to state your true motive- the anti American sentiment above.
A closed league is also potentially in breach of anti-competition laws.

Microsoft would prevent you working for them and another software company. If you want to form your own league, expect to be banned from Uefa competitions!

When all else fails, you can always rely on the old "anti-American" chestnut.

First of all, its not a closed league. They had a 2nd window, which shut the door on that potential legal minefield.

The only way UEFA could stop this was to mobilize the ignorant fans and then use friendly govts and media. Notice none of them ever actually filed a case. Even the leagues that threatened expulsion never made any concrete efforts except for the posturing.

Practically every sports attorney was unanimous that there was no legal issue to challenge, hence UEFA's tactics in responding to this; a brilliant one I admit...

Your Microsoft analogy above is another straw argument :blush: . The teams were not looking to play in the UCL and ESL. Microsoft cannot stop anyone from forming a software coy because it would "weaken them"...

But like I've said b/4, you are just running in circles...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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txj wrote:
First of all, its not a closed league. They had a 2nd window, which shut the door on that potential legal minefield.

The only way UEFA could stop this was to mobilize the ignorant fans and then use friendly govts and media. Notice none of them ever actually filed a case. Even the leagues that threatened expulsion never made any concrete efforts except for the posturing.

Practically every sports attorney was unanimous that there was no legal issue to challenge, hence UEFA's tactics in responding to this; a brilliant one I admit...

Your Microsoft analogy above is another straw argument :blush: . The teams were not looking to play in the UCL and ESL. Microsoft cannot stop anyone from forming a software coy because it would "weaken them"...

But like I've said b/4, you are just running in circles...
It is closed if you have permanent members - that means they can't be replaced.

Uefa didn't "mobilize" any fans. They were playing catch-up and riding on the anger of the fans. I can't think of any fan that listens to Uefa, and the media, at least in this country, is no friend of Uefa. You clearly don't know how things work. If you did, you would advance the more realistic account of how this went down in flames. Sky Sports and their pundits have more influence over fans in England than Uefa. Sky have a commercial stake in the EPL. BT Sport has a commercial stake in the CL/Europa and EPL. They had a motive to undermine the super league b/c it would devalue what they had paid billions for the rights. So commentary from pundits like Gary Neville has to be seen in that context.

That said, the commercial interests of Sky, Uefa, the EPL, etc were aligned with traditions that real fans hold dearly. It was that combo that doomed the super league and not your ignorant waffle about Uefa influencing anyone.

Nobody could be expelled before the fact. You can't convict on intent. If they took part in the super league, then they could face sanction. In fact, the EPL and Uefa have been reluctant to take action such as points deduction b/c they don't want to antagonise the fans who are onside and would suffer from that sort of action.

I don't know which "sports lawyers" you have consulted, but Macron, Johnson, and the EU said the super league was in possible breach of competition laws by operating like a cartel.

Microsoft would not allow you to work for them while working for a competitor. So Uefa shouldn't allow you to take part in any Uefa competition from CL to the European Championships if you take part in the super league. Same difference.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
First of all, its not a closed league. They had a 2nd window, which shut the door on that potential legal minefield.

The only way UEFA could stop this was to mobilize the ignorant fans and then use friendly govts and media. Notice none of them ever actually filed a case. Even the leagues that threatened expulsion never made any concrete efforts except for the posturing.

Practically every sports attorney was unanimous that there was no legal issue to challenge, hence UEFA's tactics in responding to this; a brilliant one I admit...

Your Microsoft analogy above is another straw argument :blush: . The teams were not looking to play in the UCL and ESL. Microsoft cannot stop anyone from forming a software coy because it would "weaken them"...

But like I've said b/4, you are just running in circles...
It is closed if you have permanent members - that means they can't be replaced.

Uefa didn't "mobilize" any fans. They were playing catch-up and riding on the anger of the fans. I can't think of any fan that listens to Uefa, and the media, at least in this country, is no friend of Uefa. You clearly don't know how things work. If you did, you would advance the more realistic account of how this went down in flames. Sky Sports and their pundits have more influence over fans in England than Uefa. Sky have a commercial stake in the EPL. BT Sport has a commercial stake in the CL/Europa and EPL. They had a motive to undermine the super league b/c it would devalue what they had paid billions for the rights. So commentary from pundits like Gary Neville has to be seen in that context.

That said, the commercial interests of Sky, Uefa, the EPL, etc were aligned with traditions that real fans hold dearly. It was that combo that doomed the super league and not your ignorant waffle about Uefa influencing anyone.

Nobody could be expelled before the fact. You can't convict on intent. If they took part in the super league, then they could face sanction. In fact, the EPL and Uefa have been reluctant to take action such as points deduction b/c they don't want to antagonise the fans who are onside and would suffer from that sort of action.

I don't know which "sports lawyers" you have consulted, but Macron, Johnson, and the EU said the super league was in possible breach of competition laws by operating like a cartel.

Microsoft would not allow you to work for them while working for a competitor. So Uefa shouldn't allow you to take part in any Uefa competition from CL to the European Championships if you take part in the super league. Same difference.
I agree with a lot of this.

But on what grounds could the EPL issue a punishment to those clubs? I suppose their 'reluctance' is in due part to the fact ESL was not a direct competitor or challenge to the EPL. I can see why UEFA felt threatened but less so for the EPL and other leagues.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by cic old boy »

The YeyeMan wrote: I agree with a lot of this.

But on what grounds could the EPL issue a punishment to those clubs? I suppose their 'reluctance' is in due part to the fact ESL was not a direct competitor or challenge to the EPL. I can see why UEFA felt threatened but less so for the EPL and other leagues.
I think for 3 reasons:

1. The ESL poses a threat to the value of the EPL. Winning the EPL and top 4 = CL place. That fight and competitiveness add to the allure of the EPL. It is diminished by the ESL b/c the CL won't have the same value and membership of the ESL is guaranteed to the Arses and the Spuds of the EPL, so no need for much EPL effort for them. Sponsors are likely to negotiate down on this basis.

2. EPL, Uefa and Fifa all work together as part of the "football family". They are affiliated to each other. They have to respond to this with one voice. Any competition by invitation goes against the ethos of the game.

3. Money. The loudest noise - EPL suits wise - has come from the uninvited. The 14 clubs that are not part of the group know that an injection of £300m or so to the invited clubs from the ESL creates a major imbalance in terms of revenue.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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cic old boy wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote: I agree with a lot of this.

But on what grounds could the EPL issue a punishment to those clubs? I suppose their 'reluctance' is in due part to the fact ESL was not a direct competitor or challenge to the EPL. I can see why UEFA felt threatened but less so for the EPL and other leagues.
I think for 3 reasons:

1. The ESL poses a threat to the value of the EPL. Winning the EPL and top 4 = CL place. That fight and competitiveness add to the allure of the EPL. It is diminished by the ESL b/c the CL won't have the same value and membership of the ESL is guaranteed to the Arses and the Spuds of the EPL, so no need for much EPL effort for them. Sponsors are likely to negotiate down on this basis.

2. EPL, Uefa and Fifa all work together as part of the "football family". They are affiliated to each other. They have to respond to this with one voice. Any competition by invitation goes against the ethos of the game.

3. Money. The loudest noise - EPL suits wise - has come from the uninvited. The 14 clubs that are not part of the group know that an injection of £300m or so to the invited clubs from the ESL creates a major imbalance in terms of revenue.
Yes, I can concur with that.... although I still contend it's not a solid basis for the EPL to punish the 6 clubs. The 6 didn't break away from the EPL - just attempted to break away from the CL. So when I hear talk about relegation or points deduction from some quarters I don't think it's realistic at all.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by Ugbowo »

txj wrote:
Ugbowo wrote:I love seeing ego maniacs get egg on their face.

Txj all over this thread calling die hard fans ignoramus.

Nonsense.

They are indeed ignorant, which is why UEFA is able to very easily and very successfully play them against the owners of their clubs.

They are able to use the institutions that are supposedly on the side of the trodden masses, including politicians eager to align themselves with 'populist' slogans, and pundits who work for the very same stations that benefit from the status quo, to easily hoodwink the masses.

Its the same brexit hoodwink all over again.

But the double standards are rife all over the place.

Why are Chelsea fans not calling for Abramovic to get out of their club?

Why are Spurs fans not asking Levy to f/off their club?
Too arrogant to see your own follies. How unfortunate.

You are now shifting the goal posts and saying UEFA manipulated them. Just arrant nonsense. As if ppl can't think for themselves and only you can.

It never hurts to admit when you are on the wrong side of a discussion. Instead of dancing around from one argument to another.

It takes a real man to be able to do that. Instead of insulting ppl's sensibilities.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by txj »

Ugbowo wrote:
txj wrote:
Ugbowo wrote:I love seeing ego maniacs get egg on their face.

Txj all over this thread calling die hard fans ignoramus.

Nonsense.

They are indeed ignorant, which is why UEFA is able to very easily and very successfully play them against the owners of their clubs.

They are able to use the institutions that are supposedly on the side of the trodden masses, including politicians eager to align themselves with 'populist' slogans, and pundits who work for the very same stations that benefit from the status quo, to easily hoodwink the masses.

Its the same brexit hoodwink all over again.

But the double standards are rife all over the place.

Why are Chelsea fans not calling for Abramovic to get out of their club?

Why are Spurs fans not asking Levy to f/off their club?
Too arrogant to see your own follies. How unfortunate.

You are now shifting the goal posts and saying UEFA manipulated them. Just arrant nonsense. As if ppl can't think for themselves and only you can.

It never hurts to admit when you are on the wrong side of a discussion. Instead of dancing around from one argument to another.

It takes a real man to be able to do that. Instead of insulting ppl's sensibilities.

Ugbowo,

You have sent the last two years personally insulting me, even though you do not know me personally.

I will not pull punches next time...

It is widely reported on various post mortems of the failure of the ESL project, how UEFA deployed institutions and govts, and used friendly media to push the narrative of "takeover of football" by "greedy owners".

On ESPN, there are reports by Gab Marcotti on this; interviews by Charlie Stillitano, etc
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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cic old boy wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote: I agree with a lot of this.

But on what grounds could the EPL issue a punishment to those clubs? I suppose their 'reluctance' is in due part to the fact ESL was not a direct competitor or challenge to the EPL. I can see why UEFA felt threatened but less so for the EPL and other leagues.
I think for 3 reasons:

1. The ESL poses a threat to the value of the EPL. Winning the EPL and top 4 = CL place. That fight and competitiveness add to the allure of the EPL. It is diminished by the ESL b/c the CL won't have the same value and membership of the ESL is guaranteed to the Arses and the Spuds of the EPL, so no need for much EPL effort for them. Sponsors are likely to negotiate down on this basis.

2. EPL, Uefa and Fifa all work together as part of the "football family". They are affiliated to each other. They have to respond to this with one voice. Any competition by invitation goes against the ethos of the game.

3. Money. The loudest noise - EPL suits wise - has come from the uninvited. The 14 clubs that are not part of the group know that an injection of £300m or so to the invited clubs from the ESL creates a major imbalance in terms of revenue.
I get this point based on the general assumption that only 1 (if any) out of the 6 clubs will consider wining the league title as a meaningful target. If that is the case, then you are mostly correct wrt the potential to materially devalue the EPL's competitiveness.

However, what about the alternate assumption that the annual 300 million pound guaranteed money gets to strengthen the 6 clubs sufficiently to increase the competitiveness of those 6 clubs wrt to competing for the EPL title? Based on this premise, in any given season, 3 to 4 of those clubs could be in the title hunt through late April/ mid-May.

Also, what about centuries old derbies? Do they vanish simply because the 6 clubs presumably have declared EPL games to be meaningless? I still remember the year Leicester won the league how Eden Hazard miraculously got himself fit enough to come off the bench in a supposedly meaningly Chelsea game to score vs. Spurs who at the time needed to win to keep their title hopes alive. Why didn't Chelsea play their youth team in that game given they (CFC) had absolutely nothing to play for with no chance of finishing higher than 10th place? Somehow these feelings will supposedly be vanquished due to annual 300 million from ESL? I doubt it. Will Liverpool play their children against Everton in a game Everton needs to qualify for Europe? Thus overall, I feel any financial harm to the EPL would have been immaterial.

The reasoning that served to motivate the formation of the ESL still remains but their execution was poor and effectively DOA. I feel the can has been kicked down the road to be revisited later.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by Ugbowo »

txj wrote:
Ugbowo wrote:
txj wrote:
Ugbowo wrote:I love seeing ego maniacs get egg on their face.

Txj all over this thread calling die hard fans ignoramus.

Nonsense.

They are indeed ignorant, which is why UEFA is able to very easily and very successfully play them against the owners of their clubs.

They are able to use the institutions that are supposedly on the side of the trodden masses, including politicians eager to align themselves with 'populist' slogans, and pundits who work for the very same stations that benefit from the status quo, to easily hoodwink the masses.

Its the same brexit hoodwink all over again.

But the double standards are rife all over the place.

Why are Chelsea fans not calling for Abramovic to get out of their club?

Why are Spurs fans not asking Levy to f/off their club?
Too arrogant to see your own follies. How unfortunate.

You are now shifting the goal posts and saying UEFA manipulated them. Just arrant nonsense. As if ppl can't think for themselves and only you can.

It never hurts to admit when you are on the wrong side of a discussion. Instead of dancing around from one argument to another.

It takes a real man to be able to do that. Instead of insulting ppl's sensibilities.

Ugbowo,

You have sent the last two years personally insulting me, even though you do not know me personally.

I will not pull punches next time...

It is widely reported on various post mortems of the failure of the ESL project, how UEFA deployed institutions and govts, and used friendly media to push the narrative of "takeover of football" by "greedy owners".

On ESPN, there are reports by Gab Marcotti on this; interviews by Charlie Stillitano, etc
Alright, I'll call a truce. I apologize for my tone.

I was just really put off by your stance especially when it became obvious that fans were speaking for themselves. I was part of the "fans" and saw a lot of the concerted efforts for protests and all that. NOTHING to do with UEFA. Just genuine anger all over.

UEFA of course were fighting for their product. Of course they were calling governments and all that but you should see what Chelsea was saying to its fans group it had a meeting with the following day after the announcement. There was no mention of UEFA


Somethings things are just as they are. No need to look for any externalities to try to explain them. You underestimated fan response and you still call them ignorant and misled all because they dont fall on your side of the arguments. That could be classified as insulting.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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green4life wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote: I agree with a lot of this.

But on what grounds could the EPL issue a punishment to those clubs? I suppose their 'reluctance' is in due part to the fact ESL was not a direct competitor or challenge to the EPL. I can see why UEFA felt threatened but less so for the EPL and other leagues.
I think for 3 reasons:

1. The ESL poses a threat to the value of the EPL. Winning the EPL and top 4 = CL place. That fight and competitiveness add to the allure of the EPL. It is diminished by the ESL b/c the CL won't have the same value and membership of the ESL is guaranteed to the Arses and the Spuds of the EPL, so no need for much EPL effort for them. Sponsors are likely to negotiate down on this basis.

2. EPL, Uefa and Fifa all work together as part of the "football family". They are affiliated to each other. They have to respond to this with one voice. Any competition by invitation goes against the ethos of the game.

3. Money. The loudest noise - EPL suits wise - has come from the uninvited. The 14 clubs that are not part of the group know that an injection of £300m or so to the invited clubs from the ESL creates a major imbalance in terms of revenue.
I get this point based on the general assumption that only 1 (if any) out of the 6 clubs will consider wining the league title as a meaningful target. If that is the case, then you are mostly correct wrt the potential to materially devalue the EPL's competitiveness.

However, what about the alternate assumption that the annual 300 million pound guaranteed money gets to strengthen the 6 clubs sufficiently to increase the competitiveness of those 6 clubs wrt to competing for the EPL title? Based on this premise, in any given season, 3 to 4 of those clubs could be in the title hunt through late April/ mid-May.

Also, what about centuries old derbies? Do they vanish simply because the 6 clubs presumably have declared EPL games to be meaningless? I still remember the year Leicester won the league how Eden Hazard miraculously got himself fit enough to come off the bench in a supposedly meaningly Chelsea game to score vs. Spurs who at the time needed to win to keep their title hopes alive. Why didn't Chelsea play their youth team in that game given they (CFC) had absolutely nothing to play for with no chance of finishing higher than 10th place? Somehow these feelings will supposedly be vanquished due to annual 300 million from ESL? I doubt it. Will Liverpool play their children against Everton in a game Everton needs to qualify for Europe? Thus overall, I feel any financial harm to the EPL would have been immaterial.

The reasoning that served to motivate the formation of the ESL still remains but their execution was poor and effectively DOA. I feel the can has been kicked down the road to be revisited later.

For years the mantra by EPL fans has been that every game matters. Suddenly, the top 4 will not matter they say, as if the title will no longer be available.

The ESL is coming back. Football as a product has always been seen by venture capital as not matching the potential wrt to returns, largely b/c of the European governance structures and the dominance of the old suits in the game.
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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Ugbowo wrote:
txj wrote:
Ugbowo wrote:
txj wrote:
Ugbowo wrote:I love seeing ego maniacs get egg on their face.

Txj all over this thread calling die hard fans ignoramus.

Nonsense.

They are indeed ignorant, which is why UEFA is able to very easily and very successfully play them against the owners of their clubs.

They are able to use the institutions that are supposedly on the side of the trodden masses, including politicians eager to align themselves with 'populist' slogans, and pundits who work for the very same stations that benefit from the status quo, to easily hoodwink the masses.

Its the same brexit hoodwink all over again.

But the double standards are rife all over the place.

Why are Chelsea fans not calling for Abramovic to get out of their club?

Why are Spurs fans not asking Levy to f/off their club?
Too arrogant to see your own follies. How unfortunate.

You are now shifting the goal posts and saying UEFA manipulated them. Just arrant nonsense. As if ppl can't think for themselves and only you can.

It never hurts to admit when you are on the wrong side of a discussion. Instead of dancing around from one argument to another.

It takes a real man to be able to do that. Instead of insulting ppl's sensibilities.

Ugbowo,

You have sent the last two years personally insulting me, even though you do not know me personally.

I will not pull punches next time...

It is widely reported on various post mortems of the failure of the ESL project, how UEFA deployed institutions and govts, and used friendly media to push the narrative of "takeover of football" by "greedy owners".

On ESPN, there are reports by Gab Marcotti on this; interviews by Charlie Stillitano, etc
Alright, I'll call a truce. I apologize for my tone.

I was just really put off by your stance especially when it became obvious that fans were speaking for themselves. I was part of the "fans" and saw a lot of the concerted efforts for protests and all that. NOTHING to do with UEFA. Just genuine anger all over.

UEFA of course were fighting for their product. Of course they were calling governments and all that but you should see what Chelsea was saying to its fans group it had a meeting with the following day after the announcement. There was no mention of UEFA


Somethings things are just as they are. No need to look for any externalities to try to explain them. You underestimated fan response and you still call them ignorant and misled all because they dont fall on your side of the arguments. That could be classified as insulting.
UEFA I admit latched on to the fan reaction and then actively promoted it using institutional structures, and friendly media. As well as politicians like in Britain, Italy, Denmark, etc...

I don't underestimate fan reaction. But they are largely emotional and ignorant.

For instance you have LFC fans asking for FSG to leave, but no Chelsea fan is asking for Roman to leave!
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by cic old boy »

green4life wrote:
I get this point based on the general assumption that only 1 (if any) out of the 6 clubs will consider wining the league title as a meaningful target. If that is the case, then you are mostly correct wrt the potential to materially devalue the EPL's competitiveness.

However, what about the alternate assumption that the annual 300 million pound guaranteed money gets to strengthen the 6 clubs sufficiently to increase the competitiveness of those 6 clubs wrt to competing for the EPL title? Based on this premise, in any given season, 3 to 4 of those clubs could be in the title hunt through late April/ mid-May.

Also, what about centuries old derbies? Do they vanish simply because the 6 clubs presumably have declared EPL games to be meaningless? I still remember the year Leicester won the league how Eden Hazard miraculously got himself fit enough to come off the bench in a supposedly meaningly Chelsea game to score vs. Spurs who at the time needed to win to keep their title hopes alive. Why didn't Chelsea play their youth team in that game given they (CFC) had absolutely nothing to play for with no chance of finishing higher than 10th place? Somehow these feelings will supposedly be vanquished due to annual 300 million from ESL? I doubt it. Will Liverpool play their children against Everton in a game Everton needs to qualify for Europe? Thus overall, I feel any financial harm to the EPL would have been immaterial.

The reasoning that served to motivate the formation of the ESL still remains but their execution was poor and effectively DOA. I feel the can has been kicked down the road to be revisited later.
Remember there is already an imbalance that makes the likes of City perennial favourites for the EPL. If you give the ESL clubs extra moolah, unless you don't give any to City or Manure, there would still be a gap b/w those 2 and the rest. What the extra ESL money does is disadvantage the uninvited.

Derbies are given extra oomph b/c of competition. For e.g Everton, even when nothing is at stake for them, derive joy in denting Liverpool's title ambitions. Same as your e.g with Chelsea being spoilers for Spurs. The FA Cup has been devalued by the expansion of the CL. Clubs prioritise CL qualification over trophies like the FA Cup and it is reflected in team selection. This is likely to happen where ESL qualification is guaranteed.

The motivation for the ESL is insatiable greed - manifested in the desire to guarantee income by eliminating the age old sporting principle that success is determined by what happens on the pitch. It was a situation in which the money people tried to pull off something without consultation with the people that understand the game and the most important people - the players and the coaches. After this category, the next most important group are the fans. If they don't buy what you are selling, it is dead in the water. Anyone with a basic knowledge of the game would have known that setting up a league on the basis of the revenue table won't fly.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

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txj wrote: UEFA I admit latched on to the fan reaction and then actively promoted it using institutional structures, and friendly media. As well as politicians like in Britain, Italy, Denmark, etc...

I don't underestimate fan reaction. But they are largely emotional and ignorant.

For instance you have LFC fans asking for FSG to leave, but no Chelsea fan is asking for Roman to leave!
Chelsea fans see Roman as a rich benefactor, Liverpool fans see FSG as milking the club for profit.
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by txj »

cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote: UEFA I admit latched on to the fan reaction and then actively promoted it using institutional structures, and friendly media. As well as politicians like in Britain, Italy, Denmark, etc...

I don't underestimate fan reaction. But they are largely emotional and ignorant.

For instance you have LFC fans asking for FSG to leave, but no Chelsea fan is asking for Roman to leave!
Chelsea fans see Roman as a rich benefactor, Liverpool fans see FSG as milking the club for profit.
That is not factually correct.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Big Six sign up for new European Super League

Post by kajifu »

txj wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote: UEFA I admit latched on to the fan reaction and then actively promoted it using institutional structures, and friendly media. As well as politicians like in Britain, Italy, Denmark, etc...

I don't underestimate fan reaction. But they are largely emotional and ignorant.

For instance you have LFC fans asking for FSG to leave, but no Chelsea fan is asking for Roman to leave!
Chelsea fans see Roman as a rich benefactor, Liverpool fans see FSG as milking the club for profit.
That is not factually correct.
Is not about what is correct is what they believe.
LFC was a household name before FSG came,Arsenal fans asking that fruad to leave also.
Chelsea without Roman they will be just like West Ham,they appreciate that and will never demand such

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