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[1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}(FT)

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anointed

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:40 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:25 pm
Posts: 49553

Quote:

BREAKING!!!!! The Brazillian FA has just lodged a formal complaint to FIFA in conjunction with Ekiti APC alleging that the Brazil/Germany debacle was photocromically fixed in favour of Germany. In its protest letter, the CBF likened the defeat to the recently concluded Ekiti election where a sitting governor lost in his country home.The Brazillian FA further alleged that its players must have played lethargically because of what the Ekiti APC termed "STOMACH INFRASTRUCTURE". FIFA has promised to give the matter an accelerated and expeditious hearing. Stay tuned.

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For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding...hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

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Prince

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:41 pm

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:09 pm
Posts: 30349

Ronaldo was 17

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Coach

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:43 pm

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:07 pm
Posts: 29723

@Piff, from where did you acquire that animation? Absolutely brilliant. Mods, reward the man, a scholar and an absolute gentleman. Absolutely brilliant. The evening is complete.

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mate

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:44 pm

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:33 pm
Posts: 15367

soma wrote:

Heliopolis wrote:

mate wrote:

This for me is a consequence of having players concentrated in clubs augmented by the world's best players in top league and intra continental competition. Throw on top of this cutting edge academies, sports science, and program management. It makes a difference in a game where the margins are so small. Even amongst tier 1 teams, never mind nations not there yet.

Think of Spain with Barcelona and Real. And you better believe that Spain will be back, with a decent pipeline of players. Germany has Bayern and Dortmund. Italy too has this going on with several clubs.

Don't you think if Boca Jrs, River Plate, Flamengo, Club America, Cruz Azul, Seattle Sounders and so...retaining top players in top leagues, playing in a top Americas CL...giving European teams top competition for world club cups...wouldn't this make a difference for respective NT programs? What if South America had top leagues, the marketing, and the branding? These are all competitive multipliers.

Again, I see this as a key margin of difference. It ultimately allows European countries to hone and cement their style. I believe this is why Argentina and Brazil haven't played to their lofty standards, both in results and style.

Nobody is saying Brazil has to be 1982 jogo bonito. But Brazil surely can still be skilled and occasionally artistic while being strong, ruthless, and versatile. Sorry, but Brazil today was a throwback to some cynical Italian or even German teams of the past.

But that's just my observation, maybe just an opinion? I don't know. But I miss Brazil...not 1982, which isn't realistic...but 1994 and 2002 Brazil. It can be done, where they show their heritage and continue to evolve.

Cheers, Mate

Brazil won the 2002 WC with their best players all based in Europe.

But if you take a close look, most came to Europe at a slightly older age and thereby retaining most of their samba education. Now they come at a very young age.

That's exactly my guess.

Also, it's not just about this individual development.

What about concentrating players on a few clubs?

Spain had Barcelona and Real. This has to make a difference in fostering better NT cohesion. It seems easier to take blocs of players already playing at top clubs and make a NT.

I'll go out on a limb here. This for me is why Mexico was able to go toe to toe with Brazil. The Mexican league gives them a solid base of players, augmented by some European based players. They also battled Holland pretty well.

All I'm saying is that this might make a crucial margin of difference between the tier 1 teams.

Cheers, Mate

Cheers, Mate

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platinum

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:48 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:30 pm
Posts: 40750

mate wrote:

soma wrote:

Heliopolis wrote:

mate wrote:

Brazil won the 2002 WC with their best players all based in Europe.

But if you take a close look, most came to Europe at a slightly older age and thereby retaining most of their samba education. Now they come at a very young age.

Not really. Ronaldo was a kid when he joined psv. Ronaldinho was around neymar's age when he moved to psg, rivaldo is the one from that 02 team who notoriously started 'late' in europe.

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phantomjournalist

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:48 pm

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:04 pm
Posts: 8169

It's hard to say Brazil didn't deserve at least some sort of shellacking with their constant diving and antics through out this World Cup; not to mention the referee bias that helped them get this far in the first place.

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mate

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:49 pm

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:33 pm
Posts: 15367

Prince wrote:

Ronaldo was 17

Again, I get that this can work for a Ronaldo or Messi special player.

But when most of your players start to leave at an earlier age...and most won't be Ronaldo or Messi...I think it doesn't work for cohesion as it does for those host NTs.

You realize Europe is on the verge of winning 3 WCs in a row? On South American soil? Only a special player like Messi stands between this.

Again, my guess is that is ultimately rooted in Western Europe being a significantly heavier center of gravity of football.

By the way...this is why I am confident in future USA prospects. Our FA fully realizes that they must strengthen not only the MLS, but also continental competition.

Cheers, Mate

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platinum

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:49 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:30 pm
Posts: 40750

phantomjournalist wrote:

It's been coming. They were 'dominated' by everyone but cameroon....maybe not 7 goals but this has been coming.

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metalalloy

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:50 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:22 pm
Posts: 46660

Coach wrote:

@Piff, from where did you acquire that animation? Absolutely brilliant. Mods, reward the man, a scholar and an absolute gentleman. Absolutely brilliant. The evening is complete.

its a commercial i think

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He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
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I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16

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oloye

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:50 pm

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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:07 am
Posts: 43065

People will analyse and over analyse this result, but the only person who did not see this coming is Scolari who believed he can kick his way into the finals. They were going to lose to Germany whicever you look at it, they were always going to lose to the first team with tactical discipline to weather their gra gra and ounish them heavily for their madness and carelessnes which they mistake for passion. You guys take time to look at all the goals, it had nothing to do with all the over elaboration going on here, it took 5 minutes for me to tell me kids Brasil were going lose, the minute Luiz started trying to play suoerman I saw trouble. Even Ghana and the Algerians showed more discipline than these brasilians. Up front they played dumb it was embarassing, Bernard never got going, when he did it was as a result of the shock, he got going alright but no end product. Without your pillars I wonder why Scolari felt he could gamble against Germany, i mean he must believe so much in his players. How was Fred getting a shirt...he contributed nothing. Tonite they carried 5 passengers a scandalous offence.. against Germany it was going to be severely punished.

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mate

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:52 pm

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:33 pm
Posts: 15367

platinum wrote:

mate wrote:

soma wrote:

Heliopolis wrote:

mate wrote:

Brazil won the 2002 WC with their best players all based in Europe.

But if you take a close look, most came to Europe at a slightly older age and thereby retaining most of their samba education. Now they come at a very young age.

Not really. Ronaldo was a kid when he joined psv. Ronaldinho was around neymar's age when he moved to psg, rivaldo is the one from that 02 team who notoriously started 'late' in europe.

Like I said, it would be interesting to see if and how this has changed across the whole team. Brazil has always sent players abroad. But it does seem on skimming that they're going earlier.

And, this doesn't mitigate how they're typically dispersed, whereas European players are increasingly concentrated on top clubs in Spain, Germany, and Italy...whom have had deep runs since 2006 in various competitions. It's telling that England doesn't do this, not leveraging the EPL similarly.

Cheers, Mate

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ElHadary

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:54 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:54 pm
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Mr. Piffington

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:56 pm

Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:37 am
Posts: 38260
Location: From the place where hardcore is beautiful

soma wrote:

mate wrote:

You are right. I the EPL we have the top 3 honing French players rather than English players. Money has been the bane of the EPL and the premier league refusing to work with the FA in this regard.

What a short-sighted view of events. England's problem is the way they coach their youth and not that the EPL values foreigners over English players. If the English were good enough they'll play, end of story. There's a reason why alot of their players aren't in demand abroad.

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realtrouble

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:57 pm

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:22 pm
Posts: 12374

anikulapo wrote:

how did Ozil play?

missed a sitter to make it 8-nil

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zee

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:59 pm

Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:12 pm
Posts: 24877

oloye wrote:

Dean........................when players playing in the 'kick & Rush' league start making ANY Brazillian SQUAD(not team), I knew the END of Brazil as a football powerhouse is signed.
Any other excuses na hotair.

In the days when Brazil had their skillful players, defenders like Jnr were not disciplined in their 'rush' to attack and they NEVER got massacred like today.
What happened today is what you get when the other team has no RESPECT for the SKILL level of your players.

GERMANY WILL NEVER ATTACK NIGERIA LIKE THIS IN ANY MATCH THAT KESHI IS THE COACH.....................they know that Emenike, Musa; Moses will eat them for breakfast with UNPREDICTABLE dribbles and fast moves.

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platinum

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:01 am

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:30 pm
Posts: 40750

mate wrote:

It helps to have a philosophy....it helps to have a philosophy that's strengthened by a strong league working towards that philosophical goal.

It's not just about Brazil sending players abroad, they're at a crossroad and have been there for years. They had a great generation in the lates 90s to 2000s but that generation was against the philosophy they were working on. The problem is the guys they're developing are the big, strong guys who thrive on fitness and have their flair bled out of them. Think Mikel Obi.

Who're the most creative brazilians today? Who're the players who make your jaw drop? Not Neymar... Ronaldinho and maybe Kaka. They'll look at their footballing philosophy again, they tried to copy the Germans and it won them the 94 world cup after their drought, they'll look at it again. They're not f00ls.

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platinum

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:03 am

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:30 pm
Posts: 40750

zee wrote:

oloye wrote:

you make some very salient points. Brazil had a sum total of ONE unpredictable player....neymar. Everyone eand his mama fit tell you wetin the other brazilians go do.

Anyway, all this na monday morning quarterbacking, brazil need to ask themselves questions and they will.

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oloye

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:03 am

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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:07 am
Posts: 43065

zee wrote:

oloye wrote:

You are right with the last paragraph...the Brasilians posed no serious threat...this is where Ljiz now killed them off, trying to become a midfielder and an attacker, whe. you already had Marcello and. Maicon joining the attack.. Fred offered nothing, no pace, cannot dribble...i mean what does he actually do in this team?

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zee

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:06 am

Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:12 pm
Posts: 24877

platinum wrote:

mate wrote:

The 1994 had R O M A R I O, it had B E B E T O...................it even had skillful defenders like Cafu & co.
This 2014WC is just a glorified....................Stoke city :lol:

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Vincent.

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:00 am

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:03 pm
Posts: 14274

kolinzo wrote:

Vincent. wrote:

anointed wrote:

kolinzo wrote:

Vincent. wrote:

kolinzo wrote:

Let's give it up for total football!!

Scolari taking responsibility for this loss. Now that's a coach!!

You mean tiki-taka is no longer dead? :rotf:

Nothing tiki taka about what the Germans did. They were direct and on point. No need for 90% possession like the team we know. Tiki taka is dead.

U dey mind Vincent. Even if he were the resurrection and the life, he couldn't bring tiki taka back to life.

I think the problem with you guys is you misunderstand what tiki-taka is about. It is not about passing for the sake of passing. It is about one-touch, pass-and-move football with players capable of interchanging position with ease. If there is no bus parked in front of the defense, there is no need for 100 passes or 70% posession.

Tiki taka is not total football, my guy.

What is the difference?

As I said before, a lot of people don't really understand what tiki-taka is. They think it is a game of passing and possession introduced by Guardiola. In reality, it was brought to Barca in the 1970s by one of the fathers of Dutch total football - Rinus Michels - from the Netherlands when he became the coach of Barca. He arrived at Barca with Johan Cruyff as a player and Cruyff later entrenched the style in all divisions at Barca when he became Barca coach and Guardiola was later a player under him.

Barca's tiki-taka is a form of total football that has evolved several times since the 1970s. Barca's tiki-taka was different under Michels, it evolved under Johan Cruyff in the early 1990s, evolved again under Luis van Gaal in the late 1990s, evolved under Frank Rijkard in the mid-2000s, and the latest evolution came in 2008 under Guardiola.

Even Bayern Munich was playing a form of tiki-taka before Guardiola arrived, as it was introduced under Luis van Gaal. Again, some people think Bayern began playing tiki-taka under Guardiola. Of course, Guardiola's tiki-taka is more extreme than Van Gaal's, but it is still tiki-taka. In fact, Van Gaal's tiki-taka at Barca was different from his tiki-taka at Bayern and different from his tiki-taka with the Ajax of Finidi and Kanu. That is a lot of different evolutions of tiki-taka and that evolution with continue.

By the way, some form of the "dead" tiki-taka it will be coming to Man United under Van Gaal (it won't be the Barca or Bayern or Ajax version because Man United has a different set of players).

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okuns

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:26 am

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:20 pm
Posts: 3579

Can you just imagine if the SE was brasilianized in Lagos during the ANC semis we hosted? The team that knocked off the host nation before the finals has never won the WC as far as I can remember.

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mate

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:02 am

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:33 pm
Posts: 15367

Lots of comments here were spot on about the Brazilian players imploding psychologically.

The weeping. The prayers. Even after every win, it was more about relief than triumph.

This game it all came undone. Losing Neymar and Silva was just too much. That 1st German goal sucked the life out of them. Zombies.

I didn't check the game stats, but it seems like there wasn't a lot of running.

This single game rivals what Spain experienced in the 1st round. I saw the same look of death in Spanish eyes in games against Holland and Chile.

It will be interesting to see how this influences the Argentinian and Dutch camps.

Cheers, Mate

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analyzer

Post subject: Re: [1st SF]BRA 1 V GER 7{Muller ,Klose,Kroos x2, Khed,Schu}

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:10 am

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:16 am
Posts: 10579
Location: Stamford brigde... Off Fulham RD...

@Vincent,
I do not think the germans play tiki-taka ( i guess in its true sense).. My understanding of tiki-taka is one of a highly possession based football centered around short quick passes and movement.. One that usually is about keeping ball away from opposition.. except that na the Barca extreme per your explanation above..

While the Germans arguably utilize some of the tenets of tiki-taka (since WC 2010), I feel their overall approach is different with more direct play.. Germans will play possession game but they do it with purpose.. They are more direct with their possession play especially when attacking vs. just stroking ball side to side or backwards unnecessarily just to keep ball away from the opposition.. Their wide players often stay true to their position.

I however stand corrected..

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