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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:21 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
theYemster wrote:
1naija wrote:
Can we just move on? Brazil are not there still celebrating any of their old world cups trophies!

How many Brazil football forums do you visit? :?


Are you more likely to hear Brazilians talk about the 1994 or 2002 trophies or their next one?

As far as I can recollect I only know four Brazilians personally, all from college, and I wouldn't classify them as close friends.

So to answer your question, I dunno.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:53 pm 
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theYemster wrote:
TonyTheTigerKiller wrote:
scholl wrote:
TonyTheTigerKiller wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Quote:
There is no disputing the pedigree of Nigeria's 1994 national team that was ranked No.5 in the world, won the Cup for African Nations (AFCON), and reached the last 16 at the World Cup. Clearly, no Nigerian team has come close before and since then. Although, there are those who may argue that the 2013 team comes close but certainly not in the minds of a great number of Nigerian teams that witnessed that 1994 team.

But having stated the above, it is arguable whether that 1994 team can be classified as Africa's best squad ever in spite of its lofty No. 5 ranking back then. Some may well argue that the team's failure to overcome Italy at the 1994 World Cup forever condemns the team to a place in the rankings behind the three African teams that have ventured to the last 8 of a World Cup. But should statistics and records be the deciding factors on this issue of Africa's best? Well, lets take a look.


Quote:
Individual accolades obtained by individual players of players who were starters or fringe in those squads can also tell the story of the strength of the squads. The 1994 Nigerian squad produced, significantly, more players that received such accolades when compared to Cameroon 1990, Senegal 2002, and Ghana 2010 squads. Table 1 below provides the distribution of those accolades. This indicates the strength in depth of the Nigerian squad and how it was sustained several years after 1994.



Details can be found below with stats:

https://eaglecity.blogspot.com/2019/08/1994-nigeria-africas-best-or.html


EII, I do not judge the quality of teams solely on the basis of statistics because statistics can be very misleading. Case in point is the 1990 Cameroon team which got to the quarterfinals of the World Cup but was really mediocre in many of their games during that World Cup; they did let in 6 goals against Russia, remember? In fact, without Roga Milla, a last minute addition to the team, they wouldn’t have gotten out of the group.

Back to Nigeria 1994, I saw 3 of the 4 games they played at the World Cup and I can tell you for a fact that both of their losses were, unequivocally, courtesy of the referees. I can also tell you with the utmost certainty that if Nigeria had held on against Italy, they would have played in the final match of that World Cup. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the Nigerian World Cup team of 1994 is the absolute best team Africa has ever sent to a World Cup. You can take that to the bank :!:


Cheers.


Oga, you are mixing events of 1990 and 1994.


In what way exactly? Perhaps, you are confused by my reference to the Cameroonian team of 1990. That reference was made only to emphasize that statistics are ultimately not very important in my assessment of a team’s quality :!:


Cheers.

The 94 Cameroon team was the one that collected six of the best from Russia courtesy of Oleg Salenko who scored virtually all his golden boot winning goals in that one match against Cameroon. The 90 Cameroon team only collected four against Russia.

I think that's the point scholl was trying to make.


My bad but my point remains valid :!:


Cheers.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:38 am 
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Image

Stats can mislead and can be manipulated.

A thorough check will have Milla, Bell and Biyick with more entries on that table from 1984 upwards or even 1975 upwards depending on when you draw the line to check both forward and backwards and that will put Nkono in the mix.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:16 am 
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TonyTheTigerKiller wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Quote:
There is no disputing the pedigree of Nigeria's 1994 national team that was ranked No.5 in the world, won the Cup for African Nations (AFCON), and reached the last 16 at the World Cup. Clearly, no Nigerian team has come close before and since then. Although, there are those who may argue that the 2013 team comes close but certainly not in the minds of a great number of Nigerian teams that witnessed that 1994 team.

But having stated the above, it is arguable whether that 1994 team can be classified as Africa's best squad ever in spite of its lofty No. 5 ranking back then. Some may well argue that the team's failure to overcome Italy at the 1994 World Cup forever condemns the team to a place in the rankings behind the three African teams that have ventured to the last 8 of a World Cup. But should statistics and records be the deciding factors on this issue of Africa's best? Well, lets take a look.


Quote:
Individual accolades obtained by individual players of players who were starters or fringe in those squads can also tell the story of the strength of the squads. The 1994 Nigerian squad produced, significantly, more players that received such accolades when compared to Cameroon 1990, Senegal 2002, and Ghana 2010 squads. Table 1 below provides the distribution of those accolades. This indicates the strength in depth of the Nigerian squad and how it was sustained several years after 1994.



Details can be found below with stats:

https://eaglecity.blogspot.com/2019/08/1994-nigeria-africas-best-or.html


EII, I do not judge the quality of teams solely on the basis of statistics because statistics can be very misleading. Case in point is the 1990 Cameroon team which got to the quarterfinals of the World Cup but was really mediocre in many of their games during that World Cup; they did let in 6 goals against Russia, remember? In fact, without Roga Milla, a last minute addition to the team, they wouldn’t have gotten out of the group.

Back to Nigeria 1994, I saw 3 of the 4 games they played at the World Cup and I can tell you for a fact that both of their losses were, unequivocally, courtesy of the referees. I can also tell you with the utmost certainty that if Nigeria had held on against Italy, they would have played in the final match of that World Cup. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the Nigerian World Cup team of 1994 is the absolute best team Africa has ever sent to a World Cup. You can take that to the bank :!:


Cheers.


:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:50 am 
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folem wrote:
Image

Stats can mislead and can be manipulated.

A thorough check will have Milla, Bell and Biyick with more entries on that table from 1984 upwards or even 1975 upwards depending on when you draw the line to check both forward and backwards and that will put Nkono in the mix.


folem,

Why stats could be misleading. It is still important to present them with a basic logic that is consistent across board. It appears that what you propose actually creates a major misleading argument, I would argue. Why? See below:

Note that the squads in question (e.g. Nigeria 1994, Cameroon 1990) serve as the base from which analysis of the squads go forward as long as most of the core of the squads was maintained. This for example would support the case why say Nigeria 1993 or Senegal 2001 may well be included in Nigeria 1994 and Senegal 2002 squad respectively (It is essentially the same squad with similar core). However, could you argue that Cameroon of 1975 (!) was reasonably Cameroon of 1990? That is a far swung stretch. It would be more reasonable to argue that Cameroon 1988 onwards would be included but 1975? The point here is that the logic ought to make sense. This isn't comparing Cameroon lifetime team v Nigeria lifetime team. That is why, for instance, Odegbami's individual awards could not be reasonably included in Nigeria 1994 squad. Or why Okocha (2003 & 20004) have not been brought up by you? That would be the equivalent of Cameroon 1975 that you brought up? Would it not be?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:32 am 
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Enugu II wrote:
folem wrote:
Image

Stats can mislead and can be manipulated.

A thorough check will have Milla, Bell and Biyick with more entries on that table from 1984 upwards or even 1975 upwards depending on when you draw the line to check both forward and backwards and that will put Nkono in the mix.


folem,

Why stats could be misleading. It is still important to present them with a basic logic that is consistent across board. It appears that what you propose actually creates a major misleading argument, I would argue. Why? See below:

Note that the squads in question (e.g. Nigeria 1994, Cameroon 1990) serve as the base from which analysis of the squads go forward as long as most of the core of the squads was maintained. This for example would support the case why say Nigeria 1993 or Senegal 2001 may well be included in Nigeria 1994 and Senegal 2002 squad respectively (It is essentially the same squad with similar core). However, could you argue that Cameroon of 1975 (!) was reasonably Cameroon of 1990? That is a far swung stretch. It would be more reasonable to argue that Cameroon 1988 onwards would be included but 1975? The point here is that the logic ought to make sense. This isn't comparing Cameroon lifetime team v Nigeria lifetime team. That is why, for instance, Odegbami's individual awards could not be reasonably included in Nigeria 1994 squad. Or why Okocha (2003 & 20004) have not been brought up by you? That would be the equivalent of Cameroon 1975 that you brought up? Would it not be?


What about Cameroon of 1984 as the core for the 1990 set?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_ ... _Olympics_–_Men%27s_team_squads#Cameroon

Cameroon
Head coach: Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia Radivoje Ognjanović

No. Pos. Player DoB Age Caps Club Tournament
games Tournament
goals Minutes
played Sub off Sub on Cards
yellow/red
1 GK Joseph-Antoine Bell Oct 8, 1954 29 ? Egypt Al-Mokawloon al-Arab 3 0 270 0 0 0
2 DF Luc Mbassi ? Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé 2 0 180 0 0 0
3 MF Isaac Sinkot ? Cameroon Dynamo Douala 1 0 90 0 0 0
4 DF Michel Bilamo ? Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé 2 0 180 0 0 0
5 MF Elie Onana Oct 13, 1951 32 ? Cameroon Canon Yaoundé 0 0 0 0 0 0
6 DF Emmanuel Kundé Jul 15, 1956 28 ? Cameroon Canon Yaoundé 2 0 180 0 0 0
7 MF Louis-Paul Mfédé Feb 26, 1961 23 ? France Rennes 3 1 178 1 1 0
8 FW Eugène Ekéké May 30, 1960 24 ? France Racing Paris 2 0 133 0 1 0
9 FW Roger Milla May 20, 1952 32 ? France Bastia 3 1 270 0 0 Yellow card1
10 MF Dagobert Dang 1958 26 ? Cameroon Canon Yaoundé 2 0 137 1 0 0
11 MF Charles Toubé Jan 22, 1958 26 ? Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé 3 0 270 0 0 Yellow card1
12 FW Ernest Ebongué May 15, 1962 22 ? Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé 2 0 135 0 1 0
13 MF Paul Bahoken Jul 7, 1955 29 ? France Olympique Alès 2 1 137 1 0 Yellow card2
14 MF Théophile Abega Jul 9, 1955 29 ? Cameroon Canon Yaoundé 3 0 253 0 0 Yellow cardRed card1
15 DF François Doumbé Lea Jan 30, 1954 30 ? Cameroon Union Douala 3 0 270 0 0 0
16 DF Ibrahim Aoudou Aug 23, 1955 28 ? France Cannes 3 0 270 0 0 0
17 GK Jacques Songo'o Mar 17, 1964 20 ? Cameroon Canon Yaoundé 0 0 0 0 0 0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Afri ... #_Cameroon

Coach: Radivoje Ognjanović

No. Pos. Player Date of birth (age) Caps Goals Club

GK Joseph-Antoine Bell October 8, 1954 (aged 29) Egypt Arab Contractors SC
GK Thomas Nkono July 20, 1955 (aged 28) Spain RCD Espanyol
GK Jacques Songo'o March 17, 1964 (aged 19) Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
DF Ibrahim Aoudou August 23, 1955 (aged 28) France Cannes
DF Emmanuel Kundé July 15, 1956 (aged 27) Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
DF Luc Mbassi
DF René Ndjeya October 9, 1953 (aged 30) Cameroon Union Douala
DF François Ndoumbé January 30, 1954 (aged 30) Cameroon Union Douala
DF Isaac Sinkot Cameroon Dinamo Douala
MF Théophile Abega July 9, 1954 (aged 29) Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
MF Grégoire Mbida January 27, 1952 (aged 32) France SC Bastia
MF Elie Onana October 13, 1951 (aged 32) Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
MF Charles Toubé January 22, 1958 (aged 26) Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
FW Bonaventure Djonkep August 20, 1961 (aged 22) Cameroon Union Douala
FW Ernest Ebongué May 15, 1962 (aged 21) Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
FW Alain Eyobo October 17, 1961 (aged 22)
FW Roger Milla May 20, 1952 (aged 31) France SC Bastia
FW Jacques N'Guéa November 8, 1955 (aged 28)
FW Dagobert Dang 1958 Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
Nicolas Makon
Ruben Félix Mamilo
Hermann Kingué Mouyémé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Afri ... s#Cameroon

Coach: Claude Le Roy

No. Pos. Player Date of birth (age) Caps Club

1? GK Joseph-Antoine Bell 8 October 1954 (aged 33) France Olympique de Marseille
16 GK Jacques Songo'o 17 March 1964 (aged 23) Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
21 DF Richard Abéna 25 May 1960 (aged 27) Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
6 DF Emmanuel Kundé 15 July 1956 (aged 31) Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
4 DF Benjamin Massing 20 June 1962 (aged 25)
5 DF Victor Ndip 18 August 1967 (aged 20)
20 DF Charles Ntamark 22 July 1964 (aged 23) England Boreham Wood
14 DF Stephen Tataw 31 March 1963 (aged 24) Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
2 MF André Kana-Biyik 1 September 1965 (aged 22) Cameroon Diamant Yaoundé
8 MF Emile Mbouh-Mbouh 30 May 1966 (aged 21) Cameroon Diamant Yaoundé
10 MF Louis-Paul Mfédé 26 February 1961 (aged 27) Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
19 MF Bertin Ollé Ollé 30 November 1961 (aged 26) Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
18 FW Bonaventure Djonkep 20 August 1961 (aged 26) Cameroon Union Douala
FW Eugène Ekéké 30 May 1960 (aged 27) France Stade Quimperois
12 FW Cyril Makanaky 28 June 1965 (aged 22) France SC Toulon
17 FW Jean-Denis Mandengué
9 FW Roger Milla 20 May 1952 (aged 35) France Montpellier HSC
FW François Omam-Biyik 21 May 1966 (aged 21) France Stade Lavallois
13 DF Bertin Ebwellé 11 September 1962 (aged 25) Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_FIFA ... s#Cameroon

Head coach: Valeri Nepomniachi

No. Pos. Player Date of birth (age) Caps Club

1 GK Joseph-Antoine Bell 8 October 1954 (aged 35) N/A France Bordeaux
2 DF André Kana-Biyik 1 September 1965 (aged 24) 41 France Metz
3 MF Jules Onana 12 June 1964 (aged 25) 6 Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
4 DF Benjamin Massing 20 June 1962 (aged 27) N/A France Créteil
5 DF Bertin Ebwellé 11 September 1962 (aged 27) 16 Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
6 DF Emmanuel Kundé 15 July 1956 (aged 33) 82 Cameroon Prévoyance Yaoundé
7 FW François Omam-Biyik 21 May 1966 (aged 24) 34 France Stade Lavallois
8 MF Emile M'Bouh 30 May 1966 (aged 24) 38 France Le Havre
9 FW Roger Milla 20 May 1952 (aged 38) 56 Réunion JS Saint-Pierroise
10 MF Louis-Paul M'Fédé 26 February 1962 (aged 28) 40 Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
11 FW Eugène Ekéké 30 May 1960 (aged 30) N/A France Valenciennes
12 DF Alphonse Yombi 30 June 1969 (aged 20) N/A Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
13 DF Jean-Claude Pagal 15 September 1964 (aged 25) N/A France La Roche Vendée
14 DF Stephen Tataw (c) 31 March 1963 (aged 27) 29 Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
15 MF Thomas Libiih 17 November 1967 (aged 22) N/A Cameroon Tonnerre Yaoundé
16 GK Thomas N'Kono 20 July 1956 (aged 33) 57 Spain Espanyol
17 DF Victor N'Dip 20 August 1967 (aged 22) 16 Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
18 FW Bonaventure Djonkep 20 August 1961 (aged 28) 49 Cameroon Union Douala
19 MF Roger Feutmba 31 October 1968 (aged 21) N/A Cameroon Union Douala
20 MF Cyrille Makanaky 28 June 1965 (aged 24) N/A France Toulon
21 MF Emmanuel Maboang 27 November 1968 (aged 21) N/A Cameroon Canon Yaoundé
22 GK Jacques Songo'o 17 March 1964 (aged 26) 38 France Toulon


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:36 am 
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Folem

There you go! Now at least some meaningful logic. Yes, you can make that argument and then change the squad tag from Cameroon 1990 to Cameroon 1984 squad and then compare to Nigeria 1994.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:18 pm 
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They were not even Nigeria's best ever team. The 1998 team (only 4 years later) was better.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:12 pm 
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wiseone wrote:
They were not even Nigeria's best ever team. The 1998 team (only 4 years later) was better.


The one that was thrashed by Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Paraguay and Denmark?

I have never understood why some Nigerian fans rate the 1998 team as highly as they do. There was enough quality left from '94 to get them into the Second Round, but the squad was already weak at the fundamental level of squad selection .... and we ended up forced to use starting 11s that left us effectively playing 9 against 11 or 8 against 11 (i.e. goalkeeper was not the only position where we were weak).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:43 pm 
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folem wrote:
Image

Stats can mislead and can be manipulated.

A thorough check will have Milla, Bell and Biyick with more entries on that table from 1984 upwards or even 1975 upwards depending on when you draw the line to check both forward and backwards and that will put Nkono in the mix.

Is that why you manipulated Taribo into the list despite the fact that he wasn't in the 94 team? :?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:34 pm 
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theYemster wrote:
folem wrote:
Image

Stats can mislead and can be manipulated.

A thorough check will have Milla, Bell and Biyick with more entries on that table from 1984 upwards or even 1975 upwards depending on when you draw the line to check both forward and backwards and that will put Nkono in the mix.

Is that why you manipulated Taribo into the list despite the fact that he wasn't in the 94 team? :?

Kanu also didn't play at CAN or WC but both played in some friendlies.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:46 pm 
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The Eagle wrote:
wiseone wrote:
They were not even Nigeria's best ever team. The 1998 team (only 4 years later) was better.


The one that was thrashed by Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Paraguay and Denmark?

I have never understood why some Nigerian fans rate the 1998 team as highly as they do. There was enough quality left from '94 to get them into the Second Round, but the squad was already weak at the fundamental level of squad selection .... and we ended up forced to use starting 11s that left us effectively playing 9 against 11 or 8 against 11 (i.e. goalkeeper was not the only position where we were weak).

I tire :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:13 pm 
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By your logic then, Brazil are a cr** team because they lost 1-7 at home in a WC QF, ditto the European Champions Liverpool who lost 50% of their group games en route to winning the trophy a few months ago. Good teams are not allowed to lose games abi? Mschew.
:roll:

By 1998, the 19/20 yo old promising Oliseh and Okocha of 1994 had matured into high class players, and the squad had been reinforced by the confidence of Olympic victory and with new additions like Taribo, Baba, and Tijani. I always remember Germany's manager saying in the lead up to that 1998 WC that Nigeria was the only team in the world with better players than Brazil in some positions.

The Eagle wrote:
wiseone wrote:
They were not even Nigeria's best ever team. The 1998 team (only 4 years later) was better.


The one that was thrashed by Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Paraguay and Denmark?

I have never understood why some Nigerian fans rate the 1998 team as highly as they do. There was enough quality left from '94 to get them into the Second Round, but the squad was already weak at the fundamental level of squad selection .... and we ended up forced to use starting 11s that left us effectively playing 9 against 11 or 8 against 11 (i.e. goalkeeper was not the only position where we were weak).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:13 pm 
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wiseone wrote:
The Eagle wrote:
wiseone wrote:
They were not even Nigeria's best ever team. The 1998 team (only 4 years later) was better.


The one that was thrashed by Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Paraguay and Denmark?

I have never understood why some Nigerian fans rate the 1998 team as highly as they do. There was enough quality left from '94 to get them into the Second Round, but the squad was already weak at the fundamental level of squad selection .... and we ended up forced to use starting 11s that left us effectively playing 9 against 11 or 8 against 11 (i.e. goalkeeper was not the only position where we were weak).

By your logic then, Brazil are a cr** team because they lost 1-7 at home in a WC QF, ditto the European Champions Liverpool who lost 50% of their group games en route to winning the trophy a few months ago. Good teams are not allowed to lose games abi? Mschew.
:roll:

By 1998, the 19/20 yo old promising Oliseh and Okocha of 1994 had matured into high class players, and the squad had been reinforced by the confidence of Olympic victory and with new additions like Taribo, Baba, and Tijani. I always remember Germany's manager saying in the lead up to that 1998 WC that Nigeria was the only team in the world with better players than Brazil in some positions.


The question of whether the 2014 Brazil team was weak or strong in absolute terms .... has nothing to do with the direct comparison you made between the 1998 and 1994 Nigerian teams. The 1998 Nigeria team conceded 9 goals in 4 tournament matches. If you add pre-tournament friendlies, they conceded 17 goals in 6 matches, which might be a Nigerian record for continuous concession, but you'd have to ask EnuguII. And while we still groan about Baggio's 89th minute equalizer for 1994 finalists (and 4-time winners) Italy, our contest with Denmark four years later was effectively over in less than 45 minutes. Like I said, there was still some quality left over from 1994 in the 1998 team, but the 1998 team was NOT better than the 1994 team.

And as far as having better players than Brazil at "some" positions, our squad in 1998 was comprised of .... players who were past-their-prime and should have been retired from international football .... players who were injured or recovering from injury and were not at their best form .... youngsters from the 1996 Olympics whom we thought would continue on an upward trajectory of improvement over the subsequent decade, but who, by 1998, were already diminishing in performance output .... and players who were in the proper form and fitness required for the 1998 World Cup, but who were not "better" than their Brazilian counterparts, and I say this as a staunch fan of the best player in our 1998 squad. :)

PS: I doubt there is anything I will say that will convince you to change your opinion, so this is my exit from the debate.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:28 pm 
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A team that conceded 3-0 against croatia, 5 1 against Holland and 3 0 against Catalonia and 1 0 against Germany is who you think was better than our 1994 team because there was world class midfielders like okocha and oliseh?? You're a DELUSIONAL goat. Let's be clear, just because a team has world class stars doesn't make them formidable as a team and Rohr 18/19 team was overall solid than that 1998 team with superstars


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:41 pm 
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"Past their prime". Utter bollox. You mean players like:

1) reigning African footballer of the year Ikpeba?
2) Taribo West who was playing for Inter Milan alongside Ronaldo, Baggio, and Zamorano?
3) Okocha whom PSG signed right after the WC.
4) Oliseh who joined Juventus the year after the WC and Dortmund 2 years later? (and was voted the best foreign player in Holland too)
5) Tijani Babangida who was tearing the great Paolo Maldini a new one and giving LBs the run around in the Champions League.
6) 19yo Babayaro who was playing for Chelsea.
7) Captain Uche Okechukwu who was part of the Fenerbahce team that ended Man Utd's 40 year unbeaten record at home in European competitions.
8) The entire back 4 who had won the Olympics 2 years earlier.
9) 12 players who had won the Olympics 2 years earlier.

The only past their prime players in the squad were Rufai, Yekini, and Okafor. Even then Rufai was selected only because the first choice GK Dosu suffered a career ending injury just before the WC - resulting in Rufai being recalled from the beach where he was on holiday.

The Eagle wrote:
And as far as having better players than Brazil at "some" positions, our squad in 1998 was comprised of .... players who were past-their-prime and should have been retired from international football .... players who were injured or recovering from injury and were not at their best form .... youngsters from the 1996 Olympics whom we thought would continue on an upward trajectory of improvement over the subsequent decade, but who, by 1998, were already diminishing in performance output .... and players who were in the proper form and fitness required for the 1998 World Cup, but who were not "better" than their Brazilian counterparts, and I say this as a staunch fan of the best player in our 1998 squad. :)

PS: I doubt there is anything I will say that will convince you to change your opinion, so this is my exit from the debate.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:53 pm 
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Brazil's 1982 WC team is considered one of their best ever and spoken of in revered tones over the statistically "better" 1994 WC winning side.

Thankfully we have our eyes to give us the full picture that statistics will never provide.

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Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:59 pm 
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wiseone wrote:
"Past their prime". Utter bollox. You mean players like:

1) reigning African footballer of the year Ikpeba?
2) Taribo West who was playing for Inter Milan alongside Ronaldo, Baggio, and Zamorano?
3) Okocha whom PSG signed right after the WC.
4) Oliseh who joined Juventus the year after the WC and Dortmund 2 years later? (and was voted the best foreign player in Holland too)
5) Tijani Babangida who was tearing the great Paolo Maldini a new one and giving LBs the run around in the Champions League.
6) 19yo Babayaro who was playing for Chelsea.
7) Captain Uche Okechukwu who was part of the Fenerbahce team that ended Man Utd's 40 year unbeaten record at home in European competitions.
8) The entire back 4 who had won the Olympics 2 years earlier.
9) 12 players who had won the Olympics 2 years earlier.

The only past their prime players in the squad were Rufai, Yekini, and Okafor. Even then Rufai was selected only because the first choice GK Dosu suffered a career ending injury just before the WC - resulting in Rufai being recalled from the beach where he was on holiday.

The Eagle wrote:
And as far as having better players than Brazil at "some" positions, our squad in 1998 was comprised of .... players who were past-their-prime and should have been retired from international football .... players who were injured or recovering from injury and were not at their best form .... youngsters from the 1996 Olympics whom we thought would continue on an upward trajectory of improvement over the subsequent decade, but who, by 1998, were already diminishing in performance output .... and players who were in the proper form and fitness required for the 1998 World Cup, but who were not "better" than their Brazilian counterparts, and I say this as a staunch fan of the best player in our 1998 squad. :)

PS: I doubt there is anything I will say that will convince you to change your opinion, so this is my exit from the debate.

Ike Shorunmu was the first choice goalie who got injured just before the WC. Baruwa I believe was the backup but he was horrendous in a friendly against Yugoslavia so he had to go.

Dosu if I recollect correctly got injured in the accident two years earlier just after they returned from Atlanta. So he wasn't a factor by then.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:00 pm 
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wiseone wrote:
"Past their prime". Utter bollox. You mean players like:

1) reigning African footballer of the year Ikpeba?
2) Taribo West who was playing for Inter Milan alongside Ronaldo, Baggio, and Zamorano?
3) Okocha whom PSG signed right after the WC.
4) Oliseh who joined Juventus the year after the WC and Dortmund 2 years later? (and was voted the best foreign player in Holland too)
5) Tijani Babangida who was tearing the great Paolo Maldini a new one and giving LBs the run around in the Champions League.
6) 19yo Babayaro who was playing for Chelsea.
7) Captain Uche Okechukwu who was part of the Fenerbahce team that ended Man Utd's 40 year unbeaten record at home in European competitions.
8) The entire back 4 who had won the Olympics 2 years earlier.
9) 12 players who had won the Olympics 2 years earlier.

The only past their prime players in the squad were Rufai, Yekini, and Okafor. Even then Rufai was selected only because the first choice GK Dosu suffered a career ending injury just before the WC - resulting in Rufai being recalled from the beach where he was on holiday.


You know, I wrote a long dissertation proving beyond any objective person's doubt that the 1994 squad was the superior. Then I looked at it, wondered what the point of winning this argument would be, and archived it in case my mood changes in the future.

I do want to say two things though ....

Firstly, I said the players in the 1998 squad could be divided into four groups .... the fourth group being players who were NOT past their prime, were NOT unfit in terms of their health, and had NOT lost from after 1996. Don't trick people into thinking I said Okocha, Oliseh and West were past their prime. I never said that.

And secondly .... what is with people bringing up Brazil? If we argued on this thread as to which of the Pele, Socrates or Ronaldinho versions of Brazil was the best, at the conclusion of the argument we would have said exactly nothing about the 1994 Nigeria team or the 1998 Nigeria team. When it is time to start talking about the two Nigerian teams, we would still have to come back to the fact that the 1994 version of Uche was better than the 1998 version, and would then continue with more facts that show how the 1994 squad was better. :)

But even if we did that, nobody would change their opinion, so what (again I ask) would be the point?

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