Semi Ajayi

[Damunk]

Damunk, sorry i dey naija. Can't reply as much as i would like...

Your position is identical to the quota system argument. Everyone must be 'represented', regardless of quality.

That's not my position. If my position isn't clear, asking for clarification would be apt. Never advocated for invitation based quota, just equality of opportunity.

Fabio, you are advocating for local based players to be invited/included in the team despite all evidence suggesting that currently there isn't anyone good enough to displace those being invited.
That's quota, based on location.
Your only measure of 'opportunity' is a full SE invitation.
They already have the opportunity, they are just not good enough to be invited, according to the coach given the responsibility of delivering results for you.


Sorry about the bad network.
Try Tizeti. Very good.


And bring back groundnut, two bottles please.

[Zelex]

I'm sorry but how the hell are 3rd-4th division (Europe) scouted players "ready made" or "polished" for the SE?

Whilst Semi Ajayi deserve a lot of credit and appreciation for his development as footballer over the last few years. His 1st invitation to the SE was based on his performances with Rotherham at League One which led to their promotion to the Championship. I doubt he was many peoples radar at that point but Rohr and his team saw the potential ability he had rather than him being "ready made". That season he took his game to another level, which I attribute a large part of this to the confidence/experience he gained from becoming a member of the SE (akin to the progress Troost-Ekong has made since his 1st invitation to the squad as a 2nd division Dutch player).

Now I'm not interested in this HB vs FB argument but I feel some you need reminding. In recent times, players such as Shehu Abdullahi and Etebo (both who have over 30 caps and have been great servants) were HB players at the time of their invitations to the SE and just like Ajayi have benefited from a manager that believed in their development. I see a player like Stephen Odey who scored for Genk in the UCL last week. He was an NPFL top scorer at one point but barely had a look into the SE under Rohr. If we can believe in the current scouting method (based largely on potential ability) which has provided us Ajayi, Aribo then lets do the same for that previously gave us Oboabona, Etebo etc. It's only logical.

[Damunk]

I'm sorry but how the hell are 3rd-4th division (Europe) scouted players "ready made" or "polished" for the SE?

Whilst Semi Ajayi deserve a lot of credit and appreciation for his development as footballer over the last few years. His 1st invitation to the SE was based on his performances with Rotherham at League One which led to their promotion to the Championship. I doubt he was many peoples radar at that point but Rohr and his team saw the potential ability he had rather than him being "ready made". That season he took his game to another level, which I attribute a large part of this to the confidence/experience he gained from becoming a member of the SE (akin to the progress Troost-Ekong has made since his 1st invitation to the squad as a 2nd division Dutch player).

Now I'm not interested in this HB vs FB argument but I feel some you need reminding. In recent times, players such as Shehu Abdullahi and Etebo (both who have over 30 caps and have been great servants) were HB players at the time of their invitations to the SE and just like Ajayi have benefited from a manager that believed in their development. I see a player like Stephen Odey who scored for Genk in the UCL last week. He was an NPFL top scorer at one point but barely had a look into the SE under Rohr. If we can believe in the current scouting method (based largely on potential ability) which has provided us Ajayi, Aribo then lets do the same for that previously gave us Oboabona, Etebo etc. It's only logical.

Off the top of my head, Ozonwafor (Enyimba), Lokosa (Kano Pillars) and Udoh (Akwa United) have all been invited by Rohr for a closer look while in the NPFL.
They too seem to have 'escaped' abroad.

[Eaglezbeak]

Somewhat hypocritical, Semi used the Brazil game to gain more confidence.... Why are such opportunities not available to HB players?

The usual respond is... Give us the names of those HB players. Answer: That's what the coach is paid to do. Scout.

Well most national teams wouldn’t just pick lower level players just to boost their confidence (I.e Seria B,Bunders2 etc the NPL isn’t even on the level of professionalism as the English League 2 (4th Division),home based players have the CHAN and WAFU to improve their game but our players lost to Togo twice so if you think fielding them in actual class A friendless will boost their confidence then what would a high scoring defeat by a 1st list Brazilian National team do for their moral?

[Zelex]

I'm sorry but how the hell are 3rd-4th division (Europe) scouted players "ready made" or "polished" for the SE?

Whilst Semi Ajayi deserve a lot of credit and appreciation for his development as footballer over the last few years. His 1st invitation to the SE was based on his performances with Rotherham at League One which led to their promotion to the Championship. I doubt he was many peoples radar at that point but Rohr and his team saw the potential ability he had rather than him being "ready made". That season he took his game to another level, which I attribute a large part of this to the confidence/experience he gained from becoming a member of the SE (akin to the progress Troost-Ekong has made since his 1st invitation to the squad as a 2nd division Dutch player).

Now I'm not interested in this HB vs FB argument but I feel some you need reminding. In recent times, players such as Shehu Abdullahi and Etebo (both who have over 30 caps and have been great servants) were HB players at the time of their invitations to the SE and just like Ajayi have benefited from a manager that believed in their development. I see a player like Stephen Odey who scored for Genk in the UCL last week. He was an NPFL top scorer at one point but barely had a look into the SE under Rohr. If we can believe in the current scouting method (based largely on potential ability) which has provided us Ajayi, Aribo then lets do the same for that previously gave us Oboabona, Etebo etc. It's only logical.

Off the top of my head, Ozonwafor (Enyimba), Lokosa (Kano Pillars) and Udoh (Akwa United) have all been invited by Rohr for a closer look while in the NPFL.
They too seem to have 'escaped' abroad.

I think these players have been invited to fill a "quota". They just weren't given the same opportunity the likes of Ajayi, Aribo have been given. Collectively, they haven't played up to 5 caps under Rohr. A move to Europe shouldn't mean you give up on the potential you once saw in them. I would like to make it clear that this is not a Rohr problem. Prior to Keshi, it was mostly the same. I was just hoping that after the relative success of Keshi's programme that this was something that would be embraced by the NFF. However, it must be acknowledged that the current situation of the NPFL over the last 2 years has not helped matters.

[fabio]

Somewhat hypocritical, Semi used the Brazil game to gain more confidence.... Why are such opportunities not available to HB players?

The usual respond is... Give us the names of those HB players. Answer: That's what the coach is paid to do. Scout.

Well most national teams wouldn’t just pick lower level players just to boost their confidence (I.e Seria B,Bunders2 etc the NPL isn’t even on the level of professionalism as the English League 2 (4th Division),home based players have the CHAN and WAFU to improve their game but our players lost to Togo twice so if you think fielding them in actual class A friendless will boost their confidence then what would a high scoring defeat by a 1st list Brazilian National team do for their moral?

CHAN and WAFU are now a measure of the quality of HB? Okay.

[Eaglezbeak]

Somewhat hypocritical, Semi used the Brazil game to gain more confidence.... Why are such opportunities not available to HB players?

The usual respond is... Give us the names of those HB players. Answer: That's what the coach is paid to do. Scout.

Well most national teams wouldn’t just pick lower level players just to boost their confidence (I.e Seria B,Bunders2 etc the NPL isn’t even on the level of professionalism as the English League 2 (4th Division),home based players have the CHAN and WAFU to improve their game but our players lost to Togo twice so if you think fielding them in actual class A friendless will boost their confidence then what would a high scoring defeat by a 1st list Brazilian National team do for their moral?

CHAN and WAFU are now a measure of the quality of HB? Okay.

Well the CHAN and WAFU tournaments use pure home based teams so logically that’s the best way to measure their quality collectively!And if that’s not enough get better home based coaches to select the right players!

[Damunk]

I'm sorry but how the hell are 3rd-4th division (Europe) scouted players "ready made" or "polished" for the SE?

Whilst Semi Ajayi deserve a lot of credit and appreciation for his development as footballer over the last few years. His 1st invitation to the SE was based on his performances with Rotherham at League One which led to their promotion to the Championship. I doubt he was many peoples radar at that point but Rohr and his team saw the potential ability he had rather than him being "ready made". That season he took his game to another level, which I attribute a large part of this to the confidence/experience he gained from becoming a member of the SE (akin to the progress Troost-Ekong has made since his 1st invitation to the squad as a 2nd division Dutch player).

Now I'm not interested in this HB vs FB argument but I feel some you need reminding. In recent times, players such as Shehu Abdullahi and Etebo (both who have over 30 caps and have been great servants) were HB players at the time of their invitations to the SE and just like Ajayi have benefited from a manager that believed in their development. I see a player like Stephen Odey who scored for Genk in the UCL last week. He was an NPFL top scorer at one point but barely had a look into the SE under Rohr. If we can believe in the current scouting method (based largely on potential ability) which has provided us Ajayi, Aribo then lets do the same for that previously gave us Oboabona, Etebo etc. It's only logical.

Off the top of my head, Ozonwafor (Enyimba), Lokosa (Kano Pillars) and Udoh (Akwa United) have all been invited by Rohr for a closer look while in the NPFL.
They too seem to have 'escaped' abroad.

I think these players have been invited to fill a "quota". They just weren't given the same opportunity the likes of Ajayi, Aribo have been given. Collectively, they haven't played up to 5 caps under Rohr. A move to Europe shouldn't mean you give up on the potential you once saw in them. I would like to make it clear that this is not a Rohr problem. Prior to Keshi, it was mostly the same. I was just hoping that after the relative success of Keshi's programme that this was something that would be embraced by the NFF. However, it must be acknowledged that the current situation of the NPFL over the last 2 years has not helped matters.

That's one way of looking at it.
Another is that they were invited for a closer look and found not to make the grade.
Keshi had some real deadweights in his squads. No-one can dispute that.

[fabio]

Keshi had dead weights, yet won Afcon and WC second round. Rohr had alive weights and couldn't match keshi record...

Keshi home based programme was a successful. No need to denigrate it.

[fabio]

Somewhat hypocritical, Semi used the Brazil game to gain more confidence.... Why are such opportunities not available to HB players?

The usual respond is... Give us the names of those HB players. Answer: That's what the coach is paid to do. Scout.

Well most national teams wouldn’t just pick lower level players just to boost their confidence (I.e Seria B,Bunders2 etc the NPL isn’t even on the level of professionalism as the English League 2 (4th Division),home based players have the CHAN and WAFU to improve their game but our players lost to Togo twice so if you think fielding them in actual class A friendless will boost their confidence then what would a high scoring defeat by a 1st list Brazilian National team do for their moral?

CHAN and WAFU are now a measure of the quality of HB? Okay.

Well the CHAN and WAFU tournaments use pure home based teams so logically that’s the best way to measure their quality collectively!And if that’s not enough get better home based coaches to select the right players!

Don't want to be harsh.... The post is not really making much sense. If the HB coaches are not up to the job, why is Rohr not in charge of the CHAN team?

[Zelex]

I'm sorry but how the hell are 3rd-4th division (Europe) scouted players "ready made" or "polished" for the SE?

Whilst Semi Ajayi deserve a lot of credit and appreciation for his development as footballer over the last few years. His 1st invitation to the SE was based on his performances with Rotherham at League One which led to their promotion to the Championship. I doubt he was many peoples radar at that point but Rohr and his team saw the potential ability he had rather than him being "ready made". That season he took his game to another level, which I attribute a large part of this to the confidence/experience he gained from becoming a member of the SE (akin to the progress Troost-Ekong has made since his 1st invitation to the squad as a 2nd division Dutch player).

Now I'm not interested in this HB vs FB argument but I feel some you need reminding. In recent times, players such as Shehu Abdullahi and Etebo (both who have over 30 caps and have been great servants) were HB players at the time of their invitations to the SE and just like Ajayi have benefited from a manager that believed in their development. I see a player like Stephen Odey who scored for Genk in the UCL last week. He was an NPFL top scorer at one point but barely had a look into the SE under Rohr. If we can believe in the current scouting method (based largely on potential ability) which has provided us Ajayi, Aribo then lets do the same for that previously gave us Oboabona, Etebo etc. It's only logical.

Off the top of my head, Ozonwafor (Enyimba), Lokosa (Kano Pillars) and Udoh (Akwa United) have all been invited by Rohr for a closer look while in the NPFL.
They too seem to have 'escaped' abroad.

I think these players have been invited to fill a "quota". They just weren't given the same opportunity the likes of Ajayi, Aribo have been given. Collectively, they haven't played up to 5 caps under Rohr. A move to Europe shouldn't mean you give up on the potential you once saw in them. I would like to make it clear that this is not a Rohr problem. Prior to Keshi, it was mostly the same. I was just hoping that after the relative success of Keshi's programme that this was something that would be embraced by the NFF. However, it must be acknowledged that the current situation of the NPFL over the last 2 years has not helped matters.

That's one way of looking at it.
Another is that they were invited for a closer look and found not to make the grade.
Keshi had some real deadweights in his squads. No-one can dispute that.

This is indeed possible however I think it's less likely the case. One should remember the likes of Ajayi and Aribo have been scouted extensively for months. The manager will get feedback from Agali etc on their strengths and weaknesses before even getting an invitation. HB players currently only have a couple of training sessions to impress, I doubt Rohr knows anything about them asides their position. I must say this was one benefit of Keshi handling the CHAN team and being on ground.

On deadweights, I felt the ANC 2013 squad was pretty good. However the WC 2014 team I thought the depth was weak. What I can't remember exactly is if that was mostly to do with a weak national pool players the SE had at the time or were there genuinely better players available for selection. It may have been a bit of both.

[Damunk]

Keshi had dead weights, yet won Afcon and WC second round. Rohr had alive weights and couldn't match keshi record...

Keshi home based programme was a successful. No need to denigrate it.

Stop being so pedantic. Its like you are on autopilot.
If you don't understand the conversation, try to.
You are not even trying.
All you see is an attempt to denigrate Keshi's achievements, which is totally off the mark.

Calm down and go and reread.

[Damunk]

Off the top of my head, Ozonwafor (Enyimba), Lokosa (Kano Pillars) and Udoh (Akwa United) have all been invited by Rohr for a closer look while in the NPFL.
They too seem to have 'escaped' abroad.

I think these players have been invited to fill a "quota". They just weren't given the same opportunity the likes of Ajayi, Aribo have been given. Collectively, they haven't played up to 5 caps under Rohr. A move to Europe shouldn't mean you give up on the potential you once saw in them. I would like to make it clear that this is not a Rohr problem. Prior to Keshi, it was mostly the same. I was just hoping that after the relative success of Keshi's programme that this was something that would be embraced by the NFF. However, it must be acknowledged that the current situation of the NPFL over the last 2 years has not helped matters.

That's one way of looking at it.
Another is that they were invited for a closer look and found not to make the grade.
Keshi had some real deadweights in his squads. No-one can dispute that.

This is indeed possible however I think it's less likely the case. One should remember the likes of Ajayi and Aribo have been scouted extensively for months. The manager will get feedback from Agali etc on their strengths and weaknesses before even getting an invitation. HB players currently only have a couple of training sessions to impress, I doubt Rohr knows anything about them asides their position. I must say this was one benefit of Keshi handling the CHAN team and being on ground.

I guess we are speculating here, but remember Yusuf was his assistant coach (now Imama) and was responsible for the HB team and their identification and that structure was always designed to feed the A team. Agali has no greater influence than Yusuf and Imama. They are simply operating in different terrains which they are familiar with. If anything the local assistants have the benefit of having players perform right under their noses.
We talk like Rohr has no time whatsoever for local players but what is the factual reality?
This article for instance is 6 months old:

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/i-have- ... sqz3pi4u2o

'I have invited over 22 NPFL players to Super Eagles'- Rohr shoots down criticism on apathy towards local-based players
Babatunde Samuel
NPFL Editor
The gaffer insists that he has been fair to players on the domestic scene, but other factors are militating against their chances in the national team
Super Eagles coach Gernot Rohr has again responded to critics championing debates that he has been unfair towards players in the Nigeria Professional Football League when it comes to handing invitations to the national team.
Rohr who has invited four players from the home front ahead of the games against Seychelles and Egypt in Asaba, Delta State revealed that he has given call ups to as much as 22 players from the league in Nigeria since coming on board.
“Since I’m here two years and a half, I have invited more than 22 local players and most of them are now abroad,” Rohr told the media.
Rohr explained that several factors are working against the chances of players based in Nigeria from making the national team and until those challenges are addressed, it may be a herculean task to have home-based players in the nucleus of the Super Eagles.

He said: “I can tell you that it is not easy for the local players when you see the conditions they have to play. Playing on old astroturf, not able to play for up to six months because the league is on break, how will they be fit and be able to compete with the players from Europe, who have the best competitions for training, playing, organization, health and so on.

“So it is not easy for the local players, but we have four in the team now because I invited two from the Under-20, the captain and the best defender. But each time we invite somebody, a few weeks later he is in Europe. So he is no more a local player."

While Rohr has been commended for at least giving four players, Ikechukwu Ezenwa, Valentine Ozornwafor Ikouwem Utin, and Ndifreke Effiong from the home front a chance in his present roster, a former Super Eagles midfielder, Friday Ekpo has advised that the current assistant coaches in the national team should do more in terms of scouting players locally.

“The assistant coaches should do more in terms of scouting and recommending local players to Rohr, I know we have a lot of talents here,” Ekpo told Goal.

Note what he said: "Each time we invite (a local player), a few weeks later he is in Europe." - suggesting he is getting referrals for the best local players available. But that does not and should not guarantee them a place in the teams/squad. Its not a quota system we want.
It seems some people are looking for a miracle worker.

On deadweights, I felt the ANC 2013 squad was pretty good. However the WC 2014 team I thought the depth was weak. What I can't remember exactly is if that was mostly to do with a weak national pool players the SE had at the time or were there genuinely better players available for selection. It may have been a bit of both.

It was the WC2014 squad I had in mind.
It had fans cursing and throwing all sorts of insults at Keshi even here on CE.
I doubt anyone can argue that there were some highly questionable inclusions in that squad. Those are who I refer to as 'deadweights'.

Your question about the strength of the national pool of players applies just as much now as it did then. Without question we have and have had some 'deadweights' in Rohr's squad and this is one reason new players are constantly being tried.
U sometimes get it right, you sometimes don't and keep adjusting.

[fabio]

The real question is why is Rohr not coaching the CHAN?

[fabio]

@Damunk, I don't believe Rohr has invited over 22 HB players to the SE. Who are these players (of the over 22) abroad. At least, he could have named 5 of them.

[Damunk]

The real question is why is Rohr not coaching the CHAN?

Its not 'the real question' anything.
Its just your latest limp salvo.
You've said he is a "clueless coach" blablablah dozens of times, so what is your own?
Just looking for mud wherever it might be found.
Weytin do the local coaches wey dey in charge of dem?

[Damunk]

@Damunk, I don't believe Rohr has invited over 22 HB players to the SE. Who are these players (of the over 22) abroad. At least, he could have named 5 of them.

Ahhh. He's now a liar.
Thats okay. Prove it.

[fabio]

@Damunk, I don't believe Rohr has invited over 22 HB players to the SE. Who are these players (of the over 22) abroad. At least, he could have named 5 of them.

Ahhh. He's now a liar.
Thats okay. Prove it.

Okay, name 10 HB players Rohr has invited, let alone more than 22.

[Zelex]

Damunk,

I would to make it clear that I am not blaming Rohr, rather I think the NFF could do much better to assist. There are a number of factors that affect the ability of HB players to compete effectively within the SE and truthfully these issues do not lie on Rohr. However, maybe I am just being a little cynical but the feeling I get is that Rohr does not believe in the innate potential of HB players. Even among the ones he has invited over the last couple of years who have now moved to Europe, how many has he continued to invite? I don't think any of these players made the SE squad again once they moved? The likes of Juwon Oshaniwa , Oboabona etc were continually invited under Keshi even after they moved to Europe. This indicates to me that HB invites are most likely to fulfill some type of quota.

At the end of the day, Rohr's job is to select what he feels is the best team to get the desired results and maybe he doesn't see the required talent with HB players, which is fair enough. Rohr has to invest in the strategy he believes in. I just think it's a pity that Nigeria may miss out on a couple of gems (i.e Etebo).

I agree with your "deadweights" point.

[Damunk]

@Damunk, I don't believe Rohr has invited over 22 HB players to the SE. Who are these players (of the over 22) abroad. At least, he could have named 5 of them.

Ahhh. He's now a liar.
Thats okay. Prove it.

Okay, name 10 HB players Rohr has invited, let alone more than 22.

If you were interested in a fair and open conversation you wouldn't even be asking this question.
Even on this thread alone, three invitees have been mentioned ''off the top of his head".
You can easily find out this information becos it is out there. Ive seen it but will not do your homework for you.

But if I am wrong, or lying, you can categorically state that there is "no evidence" that 22 LB players have been invited since Rohr has been in charge (which is what he said).

You are not being open-minded on this matter despite your claims. It is very difficult having an honest conversation with closed-minded people.

Seek and ye shall find.
Matthew 7:7

[fabio]

Damunk, has gone scriptural ..

I have searched and couldn't find the more than 22 players....

Since we are using Matthew 7:7... Ask and Ye shall be given. Please kindly give me the list. If it is more than 22 HB player. An unreserved apology will be tendered.

[Damunk]

Damunk,
I would to make it clear that I am not blaming Rohr, rather I think the NFF could do much better to assist. There are a number of factors that affect the ability of HB players to compete effectively within the SE and truthfully these issues do not lie on Rohr.

Precisely. This is what Rohr said in the article - and not for the first time.
Those factors are real, not just excuses.

However, maybe I am just being a little cynical but the feeling I get is that Rohr does not believe in the innate potential of HB players. Even among the ones he has invited over the last couple of years who have now moved to Europe, how many has he continued to invite? I don't think any of these players made the SE squad again once they moved? The likes of Juwon Oshaniwa , Oboabona etc were continually invited under Keshi even after they moved to Europe. This indicates to me that HB invites are most likely to fulfill some type of quota.

I hear you and my honest opinion is that we are operating at a slightly higher level now. None of the players you've mentioned (and I'll add Mba and Egwueke - one of my favourite players of the Keshi era) have really gone on to do much and won't make today's team on merit IMHO. It seems they peaked about that time and have regressed since. Hopefully the current set are on an upward trajectory (or most of them).
Even the next generation of Nigerian youngsters we expected to take over like Nacho, Success, Nwakali, Alampasu, Nwobodo and Ifeanyi are not quite good enough for today's team - and they too have all emigrated abroad. It is painful but it seems to be the harsh reality. Any argument otherwise is subjective rather than objective.

At the end of the day, Rohr's job is to select what he feels is the best team to get the desired results and maybe he doesn't see the required talent with HB players, which is fair enough. Rohr has to invest in the strategy he believes in. I just think it's a pity that Nigeria may miss out on a couple of gems (i.e Etebo).

This is what too many people are having a hard time accepting.
You'll find there are a group of 'fans' that are preoccupied with Rohr's downfall so much so that it is souring their enjoyment of the successes of the SE.
As for Etebo, I only fully appreciated him when I checked out his impressive AFCON 2019 stats. Before then I was ambivalent about his worth to the team. But that shows we can all be biased in our observations and evaluations and therefore we can't afford to be pig-headed about anything. I wonder what these peoplewould have said about Westerhoff in his early years. We know how they insulted Keshi despite what many are now claiming after the fact.

We should let the coach do his job since it is what he is being paid for. We have a stability now that we haven't had in decades but typical restless Nigerians that we are, we are looking to disrupt it because we want the instant gratification of our personal subjective desires.

I agree with your "deadweights" point.

Thanks.
But even if you don't agree, at least we are having an honest conversation.

[chief nfachairman]

I'm sorry but how the hell are 3rd-4th division (Europe) scouted players "ready made" or "polished" for the SE?

Whilst Semi Ajayi deserve a lot of credit and appreciation for his development as footballer over the last few years. His 1st invitation to the SE was based on his performances with Rotherham at League One which led to their promotion to the Championship. I doubt he was many peoples radar at that point but Rohr and his team saw the potential ability he had rather than him being "ready made". That season he took his game to another level, which I attribute a large part of this to the confidence/experience he gained from becoming a member of the SE (akin to the progress Troost-Ekong has made since his 1st invitation to the squad as a 2nd division Dutch player).

Now I'm not interested in this HB vs FB argument but I feel some you need reminding. In recent times, players such as Shehu Abdullahi and Etebo (both who have over 30 caps and have been great servants) were HB players at the time of their invitations to the SE and just like Ajayi have benefited from a manager that believed in their development. I see a player like Stephen Odey who scored for Genk in the UCL last week. He was an NPFL top scorer at one point but barely had a look into the SE under Rohr. If we can believe in the current scouting method (based largely on potential ability) which has provided us Ajayi, Aribo then lets do the same for that previously gave us Oboabona, Etebo etc. It's only logical.

Erm, uncle Zelex,
Semi was in the Championship when he got invited to the SE last year (after the world cup).

https://ng.soccerway.com/players/semi-ajayi/268823/