Moise Kean a sub, subbed after 17 mins

[charlie]

@Oloye, @Pahjimoh,
All we are doing is guessing on how Keane might react. If DF was right or wrong, it will show in the performance of Moses Keane and his teammates.

Lets continue this debate after the next Everton game.

I am not guessing, I have been there and I know what humiliation of a player is. Ask any player how they would feel with that nonsense. Tactical or not, it is humiliating. Strange you now change the tune to guessing

There is overwhelming evidence to show that players don't even like being substituted,, never mind being humiliated. In the dressing room, that is how such substitution is seen.

Oloye, it is supposed to be humiliating. That was one of the goals of subbing a sub. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with humiliating a young man or woman as a wake up call. I was once a teenager, and I have kids that are teenagers so I also know the value of strategic humiliation in the moment, in order to teach or reinforce a lesson.

What you, me and all of us are guessing on is how he might respond to the lesson. Will it be positive or negative? For anyone who doesn't know Moses Keane personally, attempting to predict how he reacts is simply guess work.

[charlie]

@Oloye, @Pahjimoh,
All we are doing is guessing on how Keane might react. If DF was right or wrong, it will show in the performance of Moses Keane and his teammates.

Lets continue this debate after the next Everton game.

Charlie, I am not saying the player or players might not react positively to such move but I'm saying it could be more damaging as well and if Duncan could have handled it better by at least acknowledging the player on the sideline after such humiliating substitution?

It could be damaging, if all Duncan is doing is calling out his player publicly, without reinforcing the lesson privately. But you dont know what is happening in that locker room, so its too early to say if it will work or not.

Also, I believe anything you do can be done better. You can only make decisions and act with the best intentions, and learn from your mistakes whether they work or not. Personally I am not going to second guess the coach for a decision he made especially when he seems to be doing a good job in getting the best of his players.

[Coach]

The solution for Kean is not to run and risk becoming the next Balotelli. Very much in the infancy of his career, he should be looking to make good of whatever opportunity he has. The Xmas schedule is jam packed, games will come his way. The talent is undeniable and that the Toffees were willing to stick such an amount on his head, speaks high of the regard in which he was held higher up. Everton could be a good platform, chance permitting.

Granted he’s shook a leg with the Old Lady, but temporal are the affections of the cougar. A bit of self-reflection perhaps, from baring down on goal at the Allianz to a bench with a poor view of the Mersey. The ability is certainly on-par with DCL, but much like the overpriced offspring of planned obsolescence, ‘tis all about application. Chances will come, hopefully he takes them. Yes wasn’t a chance, it was a chore and he failed.

[oloye]

@Oloye, @Pahjimoh,
All we are doing is guessing on how Keane might react. If DF was right or wrong, it will show in the performance of Moses Keane and his teammates.

Lets continue this debate after the next Everton game.

I am not guessing, I have been there and I know what humiliation of a player is. Ask any player how they would feel with that nonsense. Tactical or not, it is humiliating. Strange you now change the tune to guessing

There is overwhelming evidence to show that players don't even like being substituted,, never mind being humiliated. In the dressing room, that is how such substitution is seen.

Oloye, it is supposed to be humiliating. That was one of the goals of subbing a sub. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with humiliating a young man or woman as a wake up call. I was once a teenager, and I have kids that are teenagers so I also know the value of strategic humiliation in the moment, in order to teach or reinforce a lesson.

What you, me and all of us are guessing on is how he might respond to the lesson. Will it be positive or negative? For anyone who doesn't know Moses Keane personally, attempting to predict how he reacts is simply guess work.

Of course the guy might survive it one hope he does, but there are players whose career have been affected that is the bone of contention. By the way substitution is not meant to be humiliation, that is not the reason behind taking out a player, I am surprised I am hearing that today for the first time. Pardon me if I am not hearing you right on this. Players don't like it depending on the reason behind it. An injured player won't complain, a player who understands the need to tactical substitution won't see it as a humiliation, a tired player would see it as a relief. But when you take a player out and blank such a player, there is more to it than the normal substitution, the point here is, it can be a dangerous thing for a young player still trying to cut his teeth in the game. That he was bought for 100 million or he earns 100k a week does not remove the fact that such is a kid. Those pointing to such mostly do so from point of envy...

Anyway I wish Duncan well, the way he is prancing around on the sideline you would think he is sir Fergie reincarnate with his trophy cabinet overflowing with trophies.

I will be the first to acknowledge that he needs to crack the whip but a whip cracked in a heavy handed manner causes harm rather than correction, that is my point.

Players have been brought in and removed almost immediately, the embarrassment is shared by both the manager and the player, especially the manager since the player did not bring himself in.

He said Keane was not up to speed quickly, a valid reason IMHO, the point is if that is case why not try to lessen the impact of the blow on the young lad.

In his playing days he would attack the coach who dares to do that, big Duncan was an agbero.

I wish him well, but more often than not, we know how this kind of approach will end.

But I like the way he set up the team against United and so far he appears to know what is needed to turn Everton from a softie to a mean gang in blues.

[charlie]

The solution for Kean is not to run and risk becoming the next Balotelli. Very much in the infancy of his career, he should be looking to make good of whatever opportunity he has. The Xmas schedule is jam packed, games will come his way. The talent is undeniable and that the Toffees were willing to stick such an amount on his head, speaks high of the regard in which he was held higher up. Everton could be a good platform, chance permitting.

Granted he’s shook a leg with the Old Lady, but temporal are the affections of the cougar. A bit of self-reflection perhaps, from baring down on goal at the Allianz to a bench with a poor view of the Mersey. The ability is certainly on-par with DCL, but much like the overpriced offspring of planned obsolescence, ‘tis all about application. Chances will come, hopefully he takes them. Yes wasn’t a chance, it was a chore and he failed.

"...but temporal are the affections of the cougar."

@Coach,...my medula oblongata is having difficulty surviving an encouter with your posts. Haba, cant you mix in some pidgin so some of us can follow?!

That said, I can relate to the above statement in bold, from my gigolo days....

[danfo driver]

@Oloye, @Pahjimoh,
All we are doing is guessing on how Keane might react. If DF was right or wrong, it will show in the performance of Moses Keane and his teammates.

Lets continue this debate after the next Everton game.

Charlie, I am not saying the player or players might not react positively to such move but I'm saying it could be more damaging as well and if Duncan could have handled it better by at least acknowledging the player on the sideline after such humiliating substitution?

It could be damaging, if all Duncan is doing is calling out his player publicly, without reinforcing the lesson privately. But you dont know what is happening in that locker room, so its too early to say if it will work or not.

Also, I believe anything you do can be done better. You can only make decisions and act with the best intentions, and learn from your mistakes whether they work or not. Personally I am not going to second guess the coach for a decision he made especially when he seems to be doing a good job in getting the best of his players.

[danfo driver]

we will find out how long that archaic person will last in the job when his jam body, run around tactics becomes old. he has already lost Moises and a few other players with that childishness.


Imagine someone on this thread applauding humiliation. You guys are still looking at football from the 1980s perspective. Football has changed! Its now more like a corporate job. How many of you will tolerate your boss humiliating you?? With these modern day footballers who make more money than Duncan, he is toast! When Kean is ready to get him fired, with a few of his friends in that dressing room, they will down their tools and he will be gone! Watch and see.

[charlie]

@Oloye, @Pahjimoh,
All we are doing is guessing on how Keane might react. If DF was right or wrong, it will show in the performance of Moses Keane and his teammates.

Lets continue this debate after the next Everton game.

I am not guessing, I have been there and I know what humiliation of a player is. Ask any player how they would feel with that nonsense. Tactical or not, it is humiliating. Strange you now change the tune to guessing

There is overwhelming evidence to show that players don't even like being substituted,, never mind being humiliated. In the dressing room, that is how such substitution is seen.

Oloye, it is supposed to be humiliating. That was one of the goals of subbing a sub. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with humiliating a young man or woman as a wake up call. I was once a teenager, and I have kids that are teenagers so I also know the value of strategic humiliation in the moment, in order to teach or reinforce a lesson.

What you, me and all of us are guessing on is how he might respond to the lesson. Will it be positive or negative? For anyone who doesn't know Moses Keane personally, attempting to predict how he reacts is simply guess work.

Of course the guy might survive it one hope he does, but there are players whose career have been affected that is the bone of contention. By the way substitution is not meant to be humiliation, that is not the reason behind taking out a player, I am surprised I am hearing that today for the first time. Pardon me if I am not hearing you right on this. Players don't like it depending on the reason behind it. An injured player won't complain, a player who understands the need to tactical substitution won't see it as a humiliation, a tired player would see it as a relief. But when you take a player out and blank such a player, there is more to it than the normal substitution, the point here is, it can be a dangerous thing for a young player still trying to cut his teeth in the game. That he was bought for 100 million or he earns 100k a week does not remove the fact that such is a kid. Those pointing to such mostly do so from point of envy...

Anyway I wish Duncan well, the way he is prancing around on the sideline you would think he is sir Fergie reincarnate with his trophy cabinet overflowing with trophies.

I will be the first to acknowledge that he needs to crack the whip but a whip cracked in a heavy handed manner causes harm rather than correction, that is my point.

Players have been brought in and removed almost immediately, the embarrassment is shared by both the manager and the player, especially the manager since the player did not bring himself in.

He said Keane was not up to speed quickly, a valid reason IMHO, the point is if that is case why not try to lessen the impact of the blow on the young lad.

In his playing days he would attack the coach who dares to do that, big Duncan was an agbero.

I wish him well, but more often than not, we know how this kind of approach will end.

But I like the way he set up the team against United and so far he appears to know what is needed to turn Everton from a softie to a mean gang in blues.

I dont disagree with your comments. A heavy handed hand can do more damage than good if all you are doing is dishing out slaps and no kisses.

I do think subbing Moses Keane in this specific instance sends a clear message to Moses and the rest of the team. And that message might be the fire Moses needs to be lit under his blockos in order to get him to wake up and dedicate himself 100% to the team, or as you say it might damage their relationship permanently.

In either case, we shall soon find out.

[Siddonlook11]

This thread na classic o... I gonna bookmark this thread .

[Coach]

It's no more than a hotpot of inevitables. Everton will be foolish to move Kean on and even more so to retain DF on a permanent basis. Kean will hopefully come good and Ferguson knows the job's not his. The only surprise would be Kean being sold and Ferguson not cruising to bruisings in the coming weeks.

[Chief Ogbunigwe]

This thread na classic o... I gonna bookmark this thread .

this thread sweet well well

[Bigpokey24]

we will find out how long that archaic person will last in the job when his jam body, run around tactics becomes old. he has already lost Moises and a few other players with that childishness.


Imagine someone on this thread applauding humiliation. You guys are still looking at football from the 1980s perspective. Football has changed! Its now more like a corporate job. How many of you will tolerate your boss humiliating you?? With these modern day footballers who make more money than Duncan, he is toast! When Kean is ready to get him fired, with a few of his friends in that dressing room, they will down their tools and he will be gone! Watch and see.

nothing more nothing less... sub a sub after 17 mins and statin g he had too many forwards on the bench

[Bigpokey24]

Everton interim boss Duncan Ferguson did not look at Moise Kean after substituting the striker

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50802290

"I just needed to make a substitution to kill a bit of time," he said.

"I have a lot of attackers on the bench, it was nothing against him personally.

this makes no sense
this charlie no sharp at all

Former Everton defender Joleon Lescott criticised the decision.

He told Sky Sports: "Yeah, that's tough to take as an individual. He's a young player as well. For me, it was the wrong call.

"I know after the game he said it wasn't about his performances but the fact he didn't shake his hand after the game makes me believe it was something about his performance that he didn't like."

charlie grow your brain and be smart...my goodness, i guess you've never played the game before ..so you think like person wey hunger dey catch ..shame on your thought processes

[danfo driver]

we will find out how long that archaic person will last in the job when his jam body, run around tactics becomes old. he has already lost Moises and a few other players with that childishness.


Imagine someone on this thread applauding humiliation. You guys are still looking at football from the 1980s perspective. Football has changed! Its now more like a corporate job. How many of you will tolerate your boss humiliating you?? With these modern day footballers who make more money than Duncan, he is toast! When Kean is ready to get him fired, with a few of his friends in that dressing room, they will down their tools and he will be gone! Watch and see.

nothing more nothing less... sub a sub after 17 mins and statin g he had too many forwards on the bench

I think if Duncan felt he needed to remove him for any reason, it is fine. He is the coach and has the right to make those decisions.

My issue is the way he ignored the kid when the kid came out. Looked away and didnt even attempt to explain to the kid his rational or support the kid openly.

Mourinho wey the United players show pepper! learned his lesson.

[/video]

[pajimoh]

I know subs have been subbed but did Duncan Ferguson handle it well?
You have a 19 year old player you just subbed in only to sib him after 17 mins.
What I find ridiculous is the treatment he gave Kean as he came off - he turned his back on him without any acknowledgement.
As a manager he's responsible for results as well as the morale of his players.
His behaviour shows he probably doesn't rate Moise and now he's taken over the job, it's showing.
If Moise is not at the level he should be then why sub him in or if he's not playing to instruction why not pull him aside during a break in play and instruct him?

Why don't you ask Keane?

The manager said his peace by his actions and in the press.

The manager put the ball at the player's feet (some will say half or court). It's up to Keane to figure out what to do with it.

First, it is Kean and how do you suggest I ask him since the thread is about YOUR OPINION, of the matter and NOT the managers opinion.
If you don't have one, try thr next thread or Uganda football

My opinion is simple and obvious. Limit fake news!
Get all the facts before you go off forming opinions based on false assumptions.
Just ask Rohr press.....

What are you on about?

The player was yanked off for not following instructions.
In initial reports (from the beeb), the coach said that Keane was not playing with the right energy for the game (I'm paraphrasing) that's why he yanked him off.

I assumed that the manager had already had a talk with the player but didn't get through to him. So yanking him off would help send the message.

Your posts and supporters, assume that the manager just yanked off an "innocent" young boy. Possibly damaging him and what not.
The guy could have been clubbing all night before the game and the manager who knew, still gave him a benefit of the doubt when he brought him on. We don't know.

The fake news is trying to build a case for a hidden agenda under the guise of opinion, which is now a euphemism for laziness at fact finding.

Even a market woman will do a better job at fact finding and analysis, before starting rumors that started as her opinion.

No one assumes DF took the boy off out of malice,. We also assumed that DF must have told MK he wasn't performing to instruction.
We further agree that DF was within his right to substitute MK.
What we are saying is, the experience is already humiliating. Even in "tough love" there's love.
Put your hand around the guy and show it's unfortunate but had to be done.
Often a kid that turned out right might be something that was said at the right time and one that didn't might be something that should have been said but was never said.
I asked for your opinion and you've gien it - thanks.

MK might play the next game and play a blinder and on the other hand he might dwell on this incident and disappear without a trace. I believe it could have been handled better with just a simple contact on the touchline. You believe it was handled perfectly - nothing spoiled

[Bigpokey24]

we will find out how long that archaic person will last in the job when his jam body, run around tactics becomes old. he has already lost Moises and a few other players with that childishness.


Imagine someone on this thread applauding humiliation. You guys are still looking at football from the 1980s perspective. Football has changed! Its now more like a corporate job. How many of you will tolerate your boss humiliating you?? With these modern day footballers who make more money than Duncan, he is toast! When Kean is ready to get him fired, with a few of his friends in that dressing room, they will down their tools and he will be gone! Watch and see.

nothing more nothing less... sub a sub after 17 mins and statin g he had too many forwards on the bench

I think if Duncan felt he needed to remove him for any reason, it is fine. He is the coach and has the right to make those decisions.

My issue is the way he ignored the kid when the kid came out. Looked away and didnt even attempt to explain to the kid his rational or support the kid openly.

Mourinho wey the United players show pepper! learned his lesson.

[/video]

Jose knows, and that is why he made that interview... Ducan needs to calm down ... I await him vs assanal this weekend...he is a club legend, so he can get away with it for now....

[ojafranpa]

Everton interim boss Duncan Ferguson did not look at Moise Kean after substituting the striker

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50802290

"I just needed to make a substitution to kill a bit of time," he said.

"I have a lot of attackers on the bench, it was nothing against him personally.

this makes no sense
this charlie no sharp at all

Former Everton defender Joleon Lescott criticised the decision.

He told Sky Sports: "Yeah, that's tough to take as an individual. He's a young player as well. For me, it was the wrong call.

"I know after the game he said it wasn't about his performances but the fact he didn't shake his hand after the game makes me believe it was something about his performance that he didn't like."

charlie grow your brain and be smart...my goodness, i guess you've never played the game before ..so you think like person wey hunger dey catch ..shame on your thought processes

The 4th official face( reaction) says it all.

[airwolex]

Anybody who ever remembered his playing days will not be surprised. Impetuous, homotional, difficult to manage.

He will never be a top manager unless he learns how to manage individuals...no be swear.

He might get away with bullying Keane but let him just try this bs with more established players. At old Trafford of all places, what a monumental jerk!

[wiseone]

It is an issue only because Big Dunc did it. When Mourinho did the same thing to Juan Mata, it did not cause such a stir because it was hailed as a sign of Mourinho's ruthless streak and single minded determination for his team to win.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... ter-playe/

[Bigpokey24]

It is an issue only because Big Dunc did it. When Mourinho did the same thing to Juan Mata, it did not cause such a stir because it was hailed as a sign of Mourinho's ruthless streak and single minded determination for his team to win.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... ter-playe/

Lamps did it, all fingers aren't equal