ENGLAND v SPAIN...@ 2:45 EASTERN TIME

[wanaj0]

Reading Yujam, one would have thought that Spain has won the WC more than ONCE!!! Haba!

[YUJAM]

Once is enough chief. How many nations have won the WC since 1990, not to mention Euro Cup and WC in same few yrs?


The pt is I could care less how many WC Spain won. I appreciate teams that play good football. These include Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Argentina, Brazil and even teams like Portugal.. Unfortunately this does not include England which galls many here. The problem is most soccer pundits agree that England is overrated trash

Reading Yujam, one would have thought that Spain has won the WC more than ONCE!!! Haba!

[junior]

Watched the game live on espn3. Spain was vastly superior technically. England did well to tie the game. Is that the same Javier Martinez from Athletico? Looked like he was playing sweeper or CD. And yes, Herrera is class. What team does he play for in La Liga.

[YUJAM]

Martinez plays for Bilbao. He played in front of defense
Herera plays for Zaragoza I believe
Jeffren/Thiago were from Barca
Goalie was Man U player Degea
Few of the players were from the Barca team in the second div

Watched the game live on espn3. Spain was vastly superior technically. England did well to tie the game. Is that the same Javier Martinez from Athletico? Looked like he was playing sweeper or CD. And yes, Herrera is class. What team does he play for in La Liga.

[junior]

Martinez plays for Bilbao. He played in front of defense
Herera plays for Zaragoza I believe
Jeffren/Thiago were from Barca
Goalie was Man U player Degea
Few of the players were from the Barca team in the second div

Watched the game live on espn3. Spain was vastly superior technically. England did well to tie the game. Is that the same Javier Martinez from Athletico? Looked like he was playing sweeper or CD. And yes, Herrera is class. What team does he play for in La Liga.

Thanks! Degea deal has not been confirmed yet. Also, I thought Martinez was an attacking midfielder.

[spastic]

Watched the game live on espn3. Spain was vastly superior technically. England did well to tie the game. Is that the same Javier Martinez from Athletico? Looked like he was playing sweeper or CD. And yes, Herrera is class. What team does he play for in La Liga.

Athletico.Bilbao next season. But he was very good for Zaragoza this season. JunMata is by far the best player on the squad. And Youjam, Spain doesn't play that well. Possession was good, chance creation was abysmal. They have an impotent forward line.

Jefren, and Adrian Lopez are quite weak to be frank. They'd be better off starting Mata on the left and, Muniain on the right with Bojan up top. the central trio of Martinez, Alcantara and Herrera are pretty good. Montoya is a technically sound defender, but the rest are lacking. Parejo should be the first off the bench. Frankly it is a boring team to watch. They often poor n the final 3rd. So I really don't know what you mean by good footy All those fancy touches in the middle were pointless if they don't constantlyt open up the defense. And for long periods, they didn't. Funny enough England was the more likely team to win once Pearce got his senses back and took oujt the defenders masquerading as midfielders in Manciene and Danny Rose and brought in Lansbury and Rodwell.

To be honest Spain had no answer for Kyle Walker. He just kept killing the Spaniards on the right with his speed. Sure Spain was more technical, but they lacked imagination outside of Mata and Herrera. Even Alacantra was a bit of a dissapointment. Highly skilled but limited vision. The Ukrainiann's should give them some problem

[YUJAM]

They carved up the England defense more than once Chief. Diversionary tactics mainly: Build-up in one part of the field just to allow the run to be made. A few times they got in the England box and had clear chances but didn't finish

Watched the game live on espn3. Spain was vastly superior technically. England did well to tie the game. Is that the same Javier Martinez from Athletico? Looked like he was playing sweeper or CD. And yes, Herrera is class. What team does he play for in La Liga.

Athletico.Bilbao next season. But he was very good for Zaragoza this season. JunMata is by far the best player on the squad. And Youjam, Spain doesn't play that well. Possession was good, chance creation was abysmal. They have an impotent forward line.

Jefren, and Adrian Lopez are quite weak to be frank. They'd be better off starting Mata on the left and, Muniain on the right with Bojan up top. the central trio of Martinez, Alcantara and Herrera are pretty good. Montoya is a technically sound defender, but the rest are lacking. Parejo should be the first off the bench. Frankly it is a boring team to watch. They often poor n the final 3rd. So I really don't know what you mean by good footy All those fancy touches in the middle were pointless if they don't constantlyt open up the defense. And for long periods, they didn't. Funny enough England was the more likely team to win once Pearce got his senses back and took oujt the defenders masquerading as midfielders in Manciene and Danny Rose and brought in Lansbury and Rodwell.

To be honest Spain had no answer for Kyle Walker. He just kept killing the Spaniards on the right with his speed. Sure Spain was more technical, but they lacked imagination outside of Mata and Herrera. Even Alacantra was a bit of a dissapointment. Highly skilled but limited vision. The Ukrainiann's should give them some problem

[spastic]

They had one clear chance in the 1st half. And 3 in the second. Buy and large they mostly played excellent footie in the middle of the park. But once they got forward, Jefren either dribbled himself into a Jam or Lopex got muscled or ooutran. The Ukrainian v. Check game was much more entertaining in terms of creating goal scoring chances. This Spanish team has to get its act together or it might fail to makeit out of the group phase. Just like their WC winning brothers, they create very few chances.

They carved up the England defense more than once Chief. Diversionary tactics mainly: Build-up in one part of the field just to allow the run to be made. A few times they got in the England box and had clear chances but didn't finish

Watched the game live on espn3. Spain was vastly superior technically. England did well to tie the game. Is that the same Javier Martinez from Athletico? Looked like he was playing sweeper or CD. And yes, Herrera is class. What team does he play for in La Liga.

Athletico.Bilbao next season. But he was very good for Zaragoza this season. JunMata is by far the best player on the squad. And Youjam, Spain doesn't play that well. Possession was good, chance creation was abysmal. They have an impotent forward line.

Jefren, and Adrian Lopez are quite weak to be frank. They'd be better off starting Mata on the left and, Muniain on the right with Bojan up top. the central trio of Martinez, Alcantara and Herrera are pretty good. Montoya is a technically sound defender, but the rest are lacking. Parejo should be the first off the bench. Frankly it is a boring team to watch. They often poor n the final 3rd. So I really don't know what you mean by good footy All those fancy touches in the middle were pointless if they don't constantlyt open up the defense. And for long periods, they didn't. Funny enough England was the more likely team to win once Pearce got his senses back and took oujt the defenders masquerading as midfielders in Manciene and Danny Rose and brought in Lansbury and Rodwell.

To be honest Spain had no answer for Kyle Walker. He just kept killing the Spaniards on the right with his speed. Sure Spain was more technical, but they lacked imagination outside of Mata and Herrera. Even Alacantra was a bit of a dissapointment. Highly skilled but limited vision. The Ukrainiann's should give them some problem

Th

[YUJAM]

LOL. That is a figment of your imagination Spastic. Spain WC team created many chances.

Let me give you some help

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/so ... index.html

They had one clear chance in the 1st half. And 3 in the second. Buy and large they mostly played excellent footie in the middle of the park. But once they got forward, Jefren either dribbled himself into a Jam or Lopex got muscled or ooutran. The Ukrainian v. Check game was much more entertaining in terms of creating goal scoring chances. This Spanish team has to get its act together or it might fail to makeit out of the group phase. Just like their WC winning brothers, they create very few chances.

They carved up the England defense more than once Chief. Diversionary tactics mainly: Build-up in one part of the field just to allow the run to be made. A few times they got in the England box and had clear chances but didn't finish

Watched the game live on espn3. Spain was vastly superior technically. England did well to tie the game. Is that the same Javier Martinez from Athletico? Looked like he was playing sweeper or CD. And yes, Herrera is class. What team does he play for in La Liga.

Athletico.Bilbao next season. But he was very good for Zaragoza this season. JunMata is by far the best player on the squad. And Youjam, Spain doesn't play that well. Possession was good, chance creation was abysmal. They have an impotent forward line.

Jefren, and Adrian Lopez are quite weak to be frank. They'd be better off starting Mata on the left and, Muniain on the right with Bojan up top. the central trio of Martinez, Alcantara and Herrera are pretty good. Montoya is a technically sound defender, but the rest are lacking. Parejo should be the first off the bench. Frankly it is a boring team to watch. They often poor n the final 3rd. So I really don't know what you mean by good footy All those fancy touches in the middle were pointless if they don't constantlyt open up the defense. And for long periods, they didn't. Funny enough England was the more likely team to win once Pearce got his senses back and took oujt the defenders masquerading as midfielders in Manciene and Danny Rose and brought in Lansbury and Rodwell.

To be honest Spain had no answer for Kyle Walker. He just kept killing the Spaniards on the right with his speed. Sure Spain was more technical, but they lacked imagination outside of Mata and Herrera. Even Alacantra was a bit of a dissapointment. Highly skilled but limited vision. The Ukrainiann's should give them some problem

Th

[khalela]

If you ask me,the Spanish coach should have brought in Iker Munian much earlier in the second half to replace Jefferen.A fearless teen who is actually not scared of taking chances as opposed to passing into the net.I actually rate him really high,since I saw him play this season.He creates space and chances and is not bullyable.Also,if Sergio Canales was fit,why not start him.He is also a bit more direct.What helps in a team is having diversity of options.If he did not want to start him,he should have brought him in instead of Parejo.

Oh well.

[Maradona]

Having watched the entire match, I now sincerely believe the Spanish are now head and shoulders above the rest of the Europeans. There were some tremendous passing and movement (Tiki Taka) in that match. Once again the English have demonstrated their apparent like skill and cohesion at the international stage. So dominant was the possession of the Spanish that the commentator at some was even saying they play Barcelona.

As Yujam rightly pointed out, the English made enormous use of their physique and managed to get something from the game. Nonetheless, one wonder how far England can go with all that energy and physical fitness. Would it be enough to win the tournament? Only time will tell. But I must say I am highly disappointed at the likes of Welbeck, Cleverly, Henderson, Sturridge, Rodwell etc. These are players that are being constantly over-hyped by the English press, but they looked like strangers for a large part of the game.

Anyway, while I still admit that the EPL is the most competitive league, the English still have a long way to go in terms of technique, possession and team work.

Paj: the Spanish are still without Sergio Canalez, Markel Sussaetta, etc. These are all much better technically than any English player (except maybe Wilshere).

[Maradona]

If you ask me,the Spanish coach should have brought in Iker Munian much earlier in the second half to replace Jefferen.A fearless teen who is actually not scared of taking chances as opposed to passing into the net.I actually rate him really high,since I saw him play this season.He creates space and chances and is not bullyable.Also,if Sergio Canales was fit,why not start him.He is also a bit more direct.What helps in a team is having diversity of options.If he did not want to start him,he should have brought him in instead of Parejo.

Oh well.

Once again another demonstration of your astute football knowledge.
Iker Munain should be a starter in the Spanish team. He has great physical prowess, and he can shoot from outside the box compared to his Spanish compatriots.

Btw, Sergio Canales was left out fo the Spanish squad as a result of his lack of playing time at Real Madrid.

[paj]

so if Spain no win d ting,wetin una go talk?

[khalela]

Having watched the entire match, I now sincerely believe the Spanish are now head and shoulders above the rest of the Europeans. There were some tremendous passing and movement (Tiki Taka) in that match. Once again the English have demonstrated their apparent like skill and cohesion at the international stage. So dominant was the possession of the Spanish that the commentator at some was even saying they play Barcelona.

As Yujam rightly pointed out, the English made enormous use of their physique and managed to get something from the game. Nonetheless, one wonder how far England can go with all that energy and physical fitness. Would it be enough to win the tournament? Only time will tell. But I must say I am highly disappointed at the likes of Welbeck, Cleverly, Henderson, Sturridge, Rodwell etc. These are players that are being constantly over-hyped by the English press, but they looked like strangers for a large part of the game.

Anyway, while I still admit that the EPL is the most competitive league, the English still have a long way to go in terms of technique, possession and team work.

Paj: the Spanish are still without Sergio Canalez, Markel Sussaetta, etc. These are all much better technically than any English player (except maybe Wilshere).

A lot is being made about possession football as if it is the holy grail and the bread and butter.It is NOT.Yes,some of us like to watch Spain play and always loved them even when they were being laughed at and was not winning anything but that being said,there are different ways to skin a cat.I think it is being myopic to think that only one style wins or is the way to go.

I've said it here on CE ad nausea um that the biggest problem the English are having is being apologetic of their style.There is nothing,I repeat,NOTHING wrong with kick and follow or route one football.If it is your style,make it work for you and stop listening to people who dont like it.I have never seen the Italians apologise for the cetannacio style.They take pride in being ultra defensive and having a "take no prisoners" approach to their midfield and defence.Why are the English bothered about their style.Even the Germans dont apologise for their style.

And yes,Spain do well in the age grade competition but then so do the likes of Germany,at least recently.In 2009,they had were the holders of the European U-21,U-19 n U-17.And they do not tiki-taka.The last edition of this competition was won by Germany(beating England,by the way) and had the likes of Khedira and Oezil.Do you know their style?You need to see their style of counter attack to believe it and it is what they took to the senior team that got the bronze.One flanking,one booting forward and the ball is on the other side of the pitch and Oezil gets the assist.Sounds familiar?Yep,they did the same thing to Argentina in the World Cup .Despite having less possession than England in that U-21 finals,they totally slaughtered them.And repeated it in the World Cup.

So you see,its not only about tiki-taka.Its about being true to your style,brushing up whatever needs to and going on to get the job done.Tiki taka does not will games.Goals do.Its the reason Spain drew the match on sunday.

England should work on their smash and grab system.It will work for them.If it took Spain 50 years and staying true to their style,then England have nothing to lose either.

[khalela]

If you ask me,the Spanish coach should have brought in Iker Munian much earlier in the second half to replace Jefferen.A fearless teen who is actually not scared of taking chances as opposed to passing into the net.I actually rate him really high,since I saw him play this season.He creates space and chances and is not bullyable.Also,if Sergio Canales was fit,why not start him.He is also a bit more direct.What helps in a team is having diversity of options.If he did not want to start him,he should have brought him in instead of Parejo.

Oh well.

Once again another demonstration of your astute football knowledge.
Iker Munain should be a starter in the Spanish team. He has great physical prowess, and he can shoot from outside the box compared to his Spanish compatriots.

Btw, Sergio Canales was left out fo the Spanish squad as a result of his lack of playing time at Real Madrid.

Poor Canales.Jose thought he was ready start but too bad,Oezil was readier.That said,Madrid wants to send him on a one season loan.They dont want to sell him cos he will come good.

Ahhh,Iker Munian.I like watching Bilbao play and Iker is one of the reasons.Llorente does drift in and out of games and Toquero is not always reliable but Munian has the impetus of youth.After watching him in one of their games where he scored a beauty from way outside the box,I think against Osasuna where they were 10 men,I made him my status on FB for a week.

And yes,I do watch too much football.Me n d hubby both.We love the game.

[YUJAM]

Khalela:
Kick and rush football has won nothing. Possession football is the only way to win at the highest level. You cannot show me one WC winning team in recent history that has not played possession footie. Ditto for Euro tourneys. The English themselves understand that this is the case and are working on improving their play even at a youth level. Yet you come from left field and say there is nothing wrong with their football.

Having watched the entire match, I now sincerely believe the Spanish are now head and shoulders above the rest of the Europeans. There were some tremendous passing and movement (Tiki Taka) in that match. Once again the English have demonstrated their apparent like skill and cohesion at the international stage. So dominant was the possession of the Spanish that the commentator at some was even saying they play Barcelona.

As Yujam rightly pointed out, the English made enormous use of their physique and managed to get something from the game. Nonetheless, one wonder how far England can go with all that energy and physical fitness. Would it be enough to win the tournament? Only time will tell. But I must say I am highly disappointed at the likes of Welbeck, Cleverly, Henderson, Sturridge, Rodwell etc. These are players that are being constantly over-hyped by the English press, but they looked like strangers for a large part of the game.

Anyway, while I still admit that the EPL is the most competitive league, the English still have a long way to go in terms of technique, possession and team work.

Paj: the Spanish are still without Sergio Canalez, Markel Sussaetta, etc. These are all much better technically than any English player (except maybe Wilshere).

A lot is being made about possession football as if it is the holy grail and the bread and butter.It is NOT.Yes,some of us like to watch Spain play and always loved them even when they were being laughed at and was not winning anything but that being said,there are different ways to skin a cat.I think it is being myopic to think that only one style wins or is the way to go.

I've said it here on CE ad nausea um that the biggest problem the English are having is being apologetic of their style.There is nothing,I repeat,NOTHING wrong with kick and follow or route one football.If it is your style,make it work for you and stop listening to people who dont like it.I have never seen the Italians apologise for the cetannacio style.They take pride in being ultra defensive and having a "take no prisoners" approach to their midfield and defence.Why are the English bothered about their style.Even the Germans dont apologise for their style.

And yes,Spain do well in the age grade competition but then so do the likes of Germany,at least recently.In 2009,they had were the holders of the European U-21,U-19 n U-17.And they do not tiki-taka.The last edition of this competition was won by Germany(beating England,by the way) and had the likes of Khedira and Oezil.Do you know their style?You need to see their style of counter attack to believe it and it is what they took to the senior team that got the bronze.One flanking,one booting forward and the ball is on the other side of the pitch and Oezil gets the assist.Sounds familiar?Yep,they did the same thing to Argentina in the World Cup .Despite having less possession than England in that U-21 finals,they totally slaughtered them.And repeated it in the World Cup.

So you see,its not only about tiki-taka.Its about being true to your style,brushing up whatever needs to and going on to get the job done.Tiki taka does not will games.Goals do.Its the reason Spain drew the match on sunday.

England should work on their smash and grab system.It will work for them.If it took Spain 50 years and staying true to their style,then England have nothing to lose either.

[khalela]

Khalela:
Kick and rush football has won nothing. Possession football is the only way to win at the highest level. You cannot show me one WC winning team in recent history that has not played possession footie. Ditto for Euro tourneys. The English themselves understand that this is the case and are working on improving their play even at a youth level. Yet you come from left field and say there is nothing wrong with their football.

Yujam,the Italians did not play possession football on their way to the world cup.They might have had possession of the ball but there football was NOT about possession.The Greeks played the most defensive kind of football known or unknown to mankind and ran away with the Euro's.I just talked about the Germans in the U21 final in 2009.They did not play possession football but cobra swift counter attack.Inter Milan did not play possession football though they were effective when they had the ball.The AC Milan Juve game was not about possession.Liverpool's UCL win was not about possession football if not AC Milan would have won.See,its not ALL about possession.Its about scoring.Arsenal keep the ball more than United and Chelsea but the two have shared the league in the last 6 years.

As for the English working on improving themselves,its their lot.No one says they do not need improvement.....Jurgen Klinsmann and now Joachim Lowe has improved German football.You can not be static.Aragones improved things about the Spanish football and Del Bosque is continuing it but that does not mean that the Spanish changed their core belief.Instead of England trying to copy Spain or Brazil,they should go and find ways to improve kick and follow.It does have its ugly beauty even if it is not all of us cup of tea.I remember how Liverpool beat United 3 seasons ago 4-0.They all came from hoof out,even the free kick and the penalty was a result of not being able to deal with the hoof!

[airwolex]

Khalela:
Kick and rush football has won nothing. Possession football is the only way to win at the highest level. You cannot show me one WC winning team in recent history that has not played possession footie. Ditto for Euro tourneys. The English themselves understand that this is the case and are working on improving their play even at a youth level. Yet you come from left field and say there is nothing wrong with their football.

Yujam,the Italians did not play possession football on their way to the world cup.They might have had possession of the ball but there football was NOT about possession.The Greeks played the most defensive kind of football known or unknown to mankind and ran away with the Euro's.I just talked about the Germans in the U21 final in 2009.They did not play possession football but cobra swift counter attack.Inter Milan did not play possession football though they were effective when they had the ball.The AC Milan Juve game was not about possession.Liverpool's UCL win was not about possession football if not AC Milan would have won.See,its not ALL about possession.Its about scoring.Arsenal keep the ball more than United and Chelsea but the two have shared the league in the last 6 years.

As for the English working on improving themselves,its their lot.No one says they do not need improvement.....Jurgen Klinsmann and now Joachim Lowe has improved German football.You can not be static.Aragones improved things about the Spanish football and Del Bosque is continuing it but that does not mean that the Spanish changed their core belief.Instead of England trying to copy Spain or Brazil,they should go and find ways to improve kick and follow.It does have its ugly beauty even if it is not all of us cup of tea.I remember how Liverpool beat United 3 seasons ago 4-0.They all came from hoof out,even the free kick and the penalty was a result of not being able to deal with the hoof!

I have to say you know more about footy than most guys on this forum!!

[YUJAM]

Khalela:
The Italians played a solid possession game. They dominated France in the finals with Pirlo running the show from deep. Obviously, there are different degrees of possession footie, but a team has to pass the ball well and run some tactical plays from their possession to score.

The Germans are the masters of passing and systematic football. Everyone knows that. All the teams you listed passed the ball well and play a good tactical game. Of course, execution of the tactical footie, depends on the football IQ of the players who if used to the 100 MPH brainless footie (read the English) will not be able to execute the type of sophisticated tactical moves required to win the game at the highest level. That is the problem with the English. Because of kick and follow, they are not sophisticated enough at a tactical level to execute the tactical plays you see from the likes of AC Milan, the Germans, Italians, French, Spanish, Argentines, Brazilians etc. This is why they still falter at the highest level. Their soccer fundamentals are flawed which is why the English FA launched a study post-WC debacle on how to improve their football at a youth level. Kick and follow will never cut it. Never has and never will

Khalela:
Kick and rush football has won nothing. Possession football is the only way to win at the highest level. You cannot show me one WC winning team in recent history that has not played possession footie. Ditto for Euro tourneys. The English themselves understand that this is the case and are working on improving their play even at a youth level. Yet you come from left field and say there is nothing wrong with their football.

Yujam,the Italians did not play possession football on their way to the world cup.They might have had possession of the ball but there football was NOT about possession.The Greeks played the most defensive kind of football known or unknown to mankind and ran away with the Euro's.I just talked about the Germans in the U21 final in 2009.They did not play possession football but cobra swift counter attack.Inter Milan did not play possession football though they were effective when they had the ball.The AC Milan Juve game was not about possession.Liverpool's UCL win was not about possession football if not AC Milan would have won.See,its not ALL about possession.Its about scoring.Arsenal keep the ball more than United and Chelsea but the two have shared the league in the last 6 years.

As for the English working on improving themselves,its their lot.No one says they do not need improvement.....Jurgen Klinsmann and now Joachim Lowe has improved German football.You can not be static.Aragones improved things about the Spanish football and Del Bosque is continuing it but that does not mean that the Spanish changed their core belief.Instead of England trying to copy Spain or Brazil,they should go and find ways to improve kick and follow.It does have its ugly beauty even if it is not all of us cup of tea.I remember how Liverpool beat United 3 seasons ago 4-0.They all came from hoof out,even the free kick and the penalty was a result of not being able to deal with the hoof!

[khalela]

Khalela:
The Italians played a solid possession game. They dominated France in the finals with Pirlo running the show from deep. Obviously, there are different degrees of possession footie, but a team has to pass the ball well and run some tactical plays from their possession to score.

Italy did NOT dominate France in the finals.Yes Pirlo was majestic but then what do you think gave Cannavaro WFOY?He was also majestic in making tackles.Italy and France was as balanced a final as you can see with even Zizzou adding his own elegant football,before the rush of blood moment.But I digress.You hit it on the head when you said there are different degrees of possession.Italy was not into possession football but both sides where more into tactical play.

The Germans are the masters of passing and systematic football. Everyone knows that.

No,Germans are not masters of passing,or at least it is not their strongest point when it comes to World football recognition.Now if you talk about systematic football,quite right that is what we know the Germans football for.The German machines as they were called.

All the teams you listed passed the ball well and play a good tactical game.

Crux of the matter...Tactics and getting it right.

Of course, execution of the tactical footie, depends on the football IQ of the players who if used to the 100 MPH brainless footie (read the English) will not be able to execute the type of sophisticated tactical moves required to win the game at the highest level. That is the problem with the English.

100MPH does NOT have to be brainless if you get the tactics right.Now if we are talking about the football IQ of a player or the English players as a whole,that is a different ball game.But do not be decieved into thinking that Kick and follow is easy.Hell no.It can not be easy.

Because of kick and follow, they are not sophisticated enough at a tactical level to execute the tactical plays you see from the likes of AC Milan, the Germans, Italians, French, Spanish, Argentines, Brazilians etc. This is why they still falter at the highest level.

Note of course that you did not add Manchester United and Liverpool when you mentioned AC Milan.They could not have gotten the cups by "thinking" about it.Or you think tactical play was not part of it?

Their soccer fundamentals are flawed which is why the English FA launched a study post-WC debacle on how to improve their football at a youth level.

Trying to improve your game and making an inqusition as to what what wrong in a competition and trying to correct it is the right way to go.It is what serious countries should do.

Germany did the same thing and went back to their youth.I remember the calls for Klinnsman's head when he went to the youth set up and (of course his refusal to be based in Germany).But you see,the German machine prototype was not broken.He used it and worked with it,fleshed it and added his own input to create the team he had and then the same template Lowe is following.Its what coaches do.

I gave the example of the Spanish who for years have been the perennial underachievers and could not cut it.Had not won a competition since before Moses split the Red Sea and their were calls for them to be more pragmatic,that beautiful football is nothing,that their defenders were crap,that their players were too small,too suave,too technical and too sissy.They did not know how to suffer.They did not know how to bond.Even here on CE,they were the butt of the jokes.But they stayed true to their style,improved on some aspects but retained their core style of play.People argue,(you including sometimes),Sergio Ramos is not good enough.Some say Pique is nothing,Puyol is all bluster,Busquet is ordinary,Iker is just an ordinary goal keeper,the midgets in the middle just pass the ball between themselves and are no real threat,when they meet a proper team they would be found out but now they are the model.

Or is it the insult to the Dutch chokers?Or the Italians "negative" football?

Kick and follow will never cut it. Never has and never will

[/quote]

May never cut it,if the English don't do something about correcting the flaws in their game.But then,I can't see the future.My stand is that it is not essentially the style that is wrong.It was not wrong for the Spaniards in 50 years of trying.My take is that they could improve and correct some wrongs while remaining true to their style.

[YUJAM]

Khalela:

Germany not the master of passing? One has to wonder when you started watching football cuz the Germans have always had an extremely good passing/possession game.

Need some help? In the past WC, Germany were the second best passing team in the WC other than Spain:

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/so ... asses.html

On Italy not dominating France, clearly the stats counter the claim you made (55% to 45% possession ration clearly shows Italy dominated the game - I clearly recall this one):

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/ge ... eport.html

On your assertion that kick and follow is not easy. Yes from a physical perspective it is extremely hard. However, it is not a thinking team's style of football. It is unnecessarily strenuous and not very efficient. This is why no kick and rush team has ever won a WC in recent history.

You also wrote this:

Note of course that you did not add Manchester United and Liverpool when you mentioned AC Milan.They could not have gotten the cups by "thinking" about it.Or you think tactical play was not part of it?

Man Utd do not play kick and rush - Sir Alex believes in ball possession football. Benitez did not practice kick and rush with Liverpool coming from Valencia. In fact, when Pool won the cup, they had arguably one of the best passers of the ball in the history of football in Xabi Alonso. It is no coincidence that when he left, Liverpool suffered greatly.

Trying to improve your game and making an inqusition as to what what wrong in a competition and trying to correct it is the right way to go.It is what serious countries should do.

Germany did the same thing and went back to their youth.I remember the calls for Klinnsman's head when he went to the youth set up and (of course his refusal to be based in Germany).But you see,the German machine prototype was not broken.He used it and worked with it,fleshed it and added his own input to create the team he had and then the same template Lowe is following.Its what coaches do.

I gave the example of the Spanish who for years have been the perennial underachievers and could not cut it.Had not won a competition since before Moses split the Red Sea and their were calls for them to be more pragmatic,that beautiful football is nothing,that their defenders were crap,that their players were too small,too suave,too technical and too sissy.They did not know how to suffer.They did not know how to bond.Even here on CE,they were the butt of the jokes.But they stayed true to their style,improved on some aspects but retained their core style of play.People argue,(you including sometimes),Sergio Ramos is not good enough.Some say Pique is nothing,Puyol is all bluster,Busquet is ordinary,Iker is just an ordinary goal keeper,the midgets in the middle just pass the ball between themselves and are no real threat,when they meet a proper team they would be found out but now they are the model.

Or is it the insult to the Dutch chokers?Or the Italians "negative" football?

Germany did not try to fundamentally change the way they play football. They never had to. They are one of the most winning teams in football. What they did was simply try to get more talented youths in the system. In the case of the English, there is an understanding that their footie is flawed so they are setting out to improve the way they train their kids.

The Spanish did re-invent their football on the other hand. I think it was in the late 80s that they decided that the aesthetic aspect of football was extremely important. After all, this is the same league that produced the Butcher of Bilbao who broke Maradona's leg and effectively ran him out of Spanish football. In addition to this, thanks to the input of Crujff and La Masia, they finally produced a generation of footballers that played ball possession and were extremely skillful.

While the Spanish had to re-invent their game, the Dutch and the Italians had perfected the art of effective footie. Both teams play good possession footie with their own respective variances. For example, the Italians produce great if cynical defenders while the Dutch produce some of the most technically effective players in the game.

Point is, winning teams do not have to reinvent their game necessarily but teams whose styles have failed time and time again, need to reinvent. The English, like the Spanish did in the early 90s, have to fundamentally change their game and approach towards footie. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that

Khalela:
The Italians played a solid possession game. They dominated France in the finals with Pirlo running the show from deep. Obviously, there are different degrees of possession footie, but a team has to pass the ball well and run some tactical plays from their possession to score.

Italy did NOT dominate France in the finals.Yes Pirlo was majestic but then what do you think gave Cannavaro WFOY?He was also majestic in making tackles.Italy and France was as balanced a final as you can see with even Zizzou adding his own elegant football,before the rush of blood moment.But I digress.You hit it on the head when you said there are different degrees of possession.Italy was not into possession football but both sides where more into tactical play.

The Germans are the masters of passing and systematic football. Everyone knows that.

No,Germans are not masters of passing,or at least it is not their strongest point when it comes to World football recognition.Now if you talk about systematic football,quite right that is what we know the Germans football for.The German machines as they were called.

All the teams you listed passed the ball well and play a good tactical game.

Crux of the matter...Tactics and getting it right.

Of course, execution of the tactical footie, depends on the football IQ of the players who if used to the 100 MPH brainless footie (read the English) will not be able to execute the type of sophisticated tactical moves required to win the game at the highest level. That is the problem with the English.

100MPH does NOT have to be brainless if you get the tactics right.Now if we are talking about the football IQ of a player or the English players as a whole,that is a different ball game.But do not be decieved into thinking that Kick and follow is easy.Hell no.It can not be easy.

Because of kick and follow, they are not sophisticated enough at a tactical level to execute the tactical plays you see from the likes of AC Milan, the Germans, Italians, French, Spanish, Argentines, Brazilians etc. This is why they still falter at the highest level.

Note of course that you did not add Manchester United and Liverpool when you mentioned AC Milan.They could not have gotten the cups by "thinking" about it.Or you think tactical play was not part of it?

Their soccer fundamentals are flawed which is why the English FA launched a study post-WC debacle on how to improve their football at a youth level.

Trying to improve your game and making an inqusition as to what what wrong in a competition and trying to correct it is the right way to go.It is what serious countries should do.

Germany did the same thing and went back to their youth.I remember the calls for Klinnsman's head when he went to the youth set up and (of course his refusal to be based in Germany).But you see,the German machine prototype was not broken.He used it and worked with it,fleshed it and added his own input to create the team he had and then the same template Lowe is following.Its what coaches do.

I gave the example of the Spanish who for years have been the perennial underachievers and could not cut it.Had not won a competition since before Moses split the Red Sea and their were calls for them to be more pragmatic,that beautiful football is nothing,that their defenders were crap,that their players were too small,too suave,too technical and too sissy.They did not know how to suffer.They did not know how to bond.Even here on CE,they were the butt of the jokes.But they stayed true to their style,improved on some aspects but retained their core style of play.People argue,(you including sometimes),Sergio Ramos is not good enough.Some say Pique is nothing,Puyol is all bluster,Busquet is ordinary,Iker is just an ordinary goal keeper,the midgets in the middle just pass the ball between themselves and are no real threat,when they meet a proper team they would be found out but now they are the model.

Or is it the insult to the Dutch chokers?Or the Italians "negative" football?

Kick and follow will never cut it. Never has and never will

May never cut it,if the English don't do something about correcting the flaws in their game.But then,I can't see the future.My stand is that it is not essentially the style that is wrong.It was not wrong for the Spaniards in 50 years of trying.My take is that they could improve and correct some wrongs while remaining true to their style.[/quote]

[spastic]

so if Spain no win d ting,wetin una go talk?

They ate not going to win with the guys currently playing.

[txj]

Wow, this has to be in the Guiness book...

I mean, how can anybody be sleeping since 1966!

Having watched the entire match, I now sincerely believe the Spanish are now head and shoulders above the rest of the Europeans. There were some tremendous passing and movement (Tiki Taka) in that match. Once again the English have demonstrated their apparent like skill and cohesion at the international stage. So dominant was the possession of the Spanish that the commentator at some was even saying they play Barcelona.

As Yujam rightly pointed out, the English made enormous use of their physique and managed to get something from the game. Nonetheless, one wonder how far England can go with all that energy and physical fitness. Would it be enough to win the tournament? Only time will tell. But I must say I am highly disappointed at the likes of Welbeck, Cleverly, Henderson, Sturridge, Rodwell etc. These are players that are being constantly over-hyped by the English press, but they looked like strangers for a large part of the game.

Anyway, while I still admit that the EPL is the most competitive league, the English still have a long way to go in terms of technique, possession and team work.

Paj: the Spanish are still without Sergio Canalez, Markel Sussaetta, etc. These are all much better technically than any English player (except maybe Wilshere).

A lot is being made about possession football as if it is the holy grail and the bread and butter.It is NOT.Yes,some of us like to watch Spain play and always loved them even when they were being laughed at and was not winning anything but that being said,there are different ways to skin a cat.I think it is being myopic to think that only one style wins or is the way to go.

I've said it here on CE ad nausea um that the biggest problem the English are having is being apologetic of their style.There is nothing,I repeat,NOTHING wrong with kick and follow or route one football.If it is your style,make it work for you and stop listening to people who dont like it.I have never seen the Italians apologise for the cetannacio style.They take pride in being ultra defensive and having a "take no prisoners" approach to their midfield and defence.Why are the English bothered about their style.Even the Germans dont apologise for their style.

And yes,Spain do well in the age grade competition but then so do the likes of Germany,at least recently.In 2009,they had were the holders of the European U-21,U-19 n U-17.And they do not tiki-taka.The last edition of this competition was won by Germany(beating England,by the way) and had the likes of Khedira and Oezil.Do you know their style?You need to see their style of counter attack to believe it and it is what they took to the senior team that got the bronze.One flanking,one booting forward and the ball is on the other side of the pitch and Oezil gets the assist.Sounds familiar?Yep,they did the same thing to Argentina in the World Cup .Despite having less possession than England in that U-21 finals,they totally slaughtered them.And repeated it in the World Cup.

So you see,its not only about tiki-taka.Its about being true to your style,brushing up whatever needs to and going on to get the job done.Tiki taka does not will games.Goals do.Its the reason Spain drew the match on sunday.

England should work on their smash and grab system.It will work for them.If it took Spain 50 years and staying true to their style,then England have nothing to lose either.