ORUMA HAS SPOKEN OUT

theYemster · Post by **theYemster** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:26 pm

naija4ever wrote:
MI5 wrote:EII,

You are making excuses here and it's not good. You are a coach yourself and would you pick off form, out of form players who don't know what to do in critical situations, getting overwhelmed by the occassion and many more. You are making CCC look like a genius here by trying to say his selections were justified but we all saw the droppings of many key players for useless players, NFA hijacking the team list and including their own boys, players like Babayaro and Agali who shouldn't have been on the team and many more nonsense that took place behind the scenes. This mago-mago nonsense that took place in Faro is not anything you should be supporting.

In the end the difference was clear when it came to crunch time CCC and the coaching staff didn't know what to do and it showed. When Lemerre was moving players on us and making adjustments CCC stayed clueless on the bench hoping for a miracle from JJ. Yet you are trying to make CCC look like this genius. His subs were pathetic, Ekwueme who came on showed why he should have been watching the game on TV, Ekong and the other players were exposed in the end and yet you are saying this team selection is justified wow....

The Osaze everyone was hyping up as the new boy wonder showed in the end he wasn't up to it when the stakes got higher.. Oruma's play was needed badly especially when the midfield needed infusion and JJ needed an extra support especially to hold things and keep the ball but in the end we all saw CCC shortcomings...For as long as CCC is the coach we are in trouble....

You are making excuses here and it's not good. You are a coach yourself and would you pick off form, out of form players who don't know what to do in critical situations, getting overwhelmed by the occassion and many more. You are making CCC look like a genius here by trying to say his selections were justified but we all saw the droppings of many key players for useless players, NFA hijacking the team list and including their own boys, players like Babayaro and Agali who shouldn't have been on the team and many more nonsense that took place behind the scenes. This mago-mago nonsense that took place in Faro is not anything you should be supporting.
Now We all knew that the list wasnt CCC's, so why blame him for dropping Oruma .

Ekong and the other players were exposed in the end and yet you are saying this team selection is justified wow....
I remember reading from one of the dailes where Ogunjobi was asking naijas to forget about wanting to know why Ekong was included, since there was nothing that could've been done to revise it. Its just typical naija style to blame the coach for every lost whereas the main culprits are the NFA. Has anyone ever blamed the teacher of his kid for his kid's failure in an exam?

Pally, whether it is Chukwu's list or not is irrelevant; if his list was tampered with then he should have either refused or quit; as long as he was in charge, then as far as im concerned that was his list. if it does come out that it wasn't his list then it just goes to show he is not tuff enuff for the job if he can allow people to push him around.

theYemster · Post by **theYemster** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:33 pm

Enugu II...stop trying to sugar coat issues; yes a coach has the right to pick his team...I ain't taking that right from Chukwu...but that doesn't mean he cannot be wrong in his choices...which he was at least on Oruma.

So if a player is in the best form of the entire squad (second only probably to Okocha), his exclusion is understandable as long as he isn't a 'core' player in the team? espeially as he is dropped for clubles and China based players. There is no logic for that in the modern game whichever way you try to spin it even if you write a book on it.

Yes I agree no one except God can say for sure how Oruma would have performed in Tunisia....but that doesn't justify his exclusion.

Its a Goal · Post by **Its a Goal** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:34 pm

theYemster, we all know CCC is not man enough to take control of his and those of the SE's destiny.

mystic · Post by **mystic** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:54 pm

EII:

No one is arguing that a coach doesn't have the right to choose his own team. No doubt CCC has every right to do as he sees fit, and pick who he sees fit, as the buck stops with him. However, this doesn't mean that observers don't have the very same right to evaluate the prudence of his selections. After all, if in his wisdom as the national team coach, he chose to field 11 left footed players from Abakiliki, that would be well within his perogative. But that wouldn't make it a wise move.

Mudi E · Post by **Mudi E** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:04 pm

If Oruma had played in Tunisia at the ANC, would Nigeria had a better result? However, he must be invited for World Cup qualifying. If that doesn't happen, then it's something personal between Oruma and Chukwu.

deanotito · Post by **deanotito** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:46 am

When I was younger, we used to warn certain people "na your mouth go kill you".

Obviously, people like Oruma weren't listening.

WINNERMAN · Post by **WINNERMAN** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:42 am

The job of a national coach is to select the best players a nation have and gel them into a team.TEAM SELECTION MUST BE BASED ON THE PRINCIPLE OF MERIT ONLY.Please do not let our coaches get away with the thought that they can select any players they like or want.lf a coach leaves out an inform player ,for imaginary reason,then he is incompetent or does not have the good of the nation at heart!

deanotito · Post by **deanotito** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:58 am

Winnerman, I disagree with you. "Merit" is one of the criteria but not the only one.
France still won the world cup without Cantona and many countries exclude other players for several different reasons. Edmundo is divisive, Romario is lazy etc etc. I am saying this only to point out that coaches reserve the right to use other bases of selection. They are only called into question when the reasons are idotic. If a coach says "I dont like your face" then we have a problem but if he says that you would cause kata-kata in his team and he has historical evidence to prove it, then let him be.

I personally feel Oruma and Babangida should have been in that team, but I understand their absence. If Okocha got injured, Kanu would have been drafted back, but I feel Oruma would have been better.

Gay Goatti · Post by **Gay Goatti** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:11 am

WINNERMAN wrote:TEAM SELECTION MUST BE BASED ON THE PRINCIPLE OF MERIT ONLY.

In what dream world?!

MYSTIC:
Let me hastily preface the following with the caveat that I personally believe that Oruma had earned at least the OPPORTUNITY to compete for a squad place.

Nevertheless, it is irrelevant (unless of course for Nigeria's "federal character" considerations) whether a coach selects the proverbial "11 left-footed players from Abakiliki" so long as the coach delivers. Ultimately, the Nigerian coach will be judged on the results that he delivers for NIGERIA, not whether so-and-so player is excelled in the French League...or scoring on the moon!

The validity of any criticism of Chukwu or indeed any other Nigerian national team coach centers on the result (or lack thereof) that HIS team garners -- not on sundry Fantasy League permutations.

theYemster · Post by **theYemster** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:57 am

deanotito wrote:Winnerman, I disagree with you. "Merit" is one of the criteria but not the only one.
France still won the world cup without Cantona and many countries exclude other players for several different reasons. Edmundo is divisive, Romario is lazy etc etc. I am saying this only to point out that coaches reserve the right to use other bases of selection. They are only called into question when the reasons are idotic. If a coach says "I dont like your face" then we have a problem but if he says that you would cause kata-kata in his team and he has historical evidence to prove it, then let him be.

I personally feel Oruma and Babangida should have been in that team, but I understand their absence. If Okocha got injured, Kanu would have been drafted back, but I feel Oruma would have been better.

Unless Chukwu comes out and says Oruma was excluded purely for disciplinary reasons (of which I am unaware by the way) then your logic is flawed. The premise of this discourse is that Chukwu himself claims Oruma was excluded because he and Okocha play the same position nd as such he doesn't need Oruma...which renders your Cantona/Edmundo argument invalid.

Then again, the fact that Chukwu turns around and includes in the team (without any form of adequate camping whatsoever I might add) both Babayaro and Agali, two well documented trouble makers with a history of unflattering behaviour (pre 3-4-3) also negates your argument.

Baggy · Post by **Baggy** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:07 am

If the interview is true, that those are Oruma's words then, i am disappointed in him.
Why? He has spoken like a little boy who has not even helped his case in the side of the coach.
Now, i don't want to know why CCC did not play invite him.
He should not have gone personal on Okocha.
Why does he have to attack Okocha like that. Is it Okocha that did not invite him.
How dare him trying to compare himself with Okocha. I withdraw that, he was not comparing, he was trying to say that he is better than him. "Okocha can not hold the ball all day", can he?
Also, he is rude. "I would say what's up boy". Is Okocha is mate? Not in age and not in football.
Let him stop getting jealous and concentrate on his football.

Now, i can't fight for his inclusion anymore. Not that i like his game anyway.
Even though, i will say that i am a fair man. He has not help himself at all.

TD · Post by TD » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:14 am

Gay Goatti wrote:
WINNERMAN wrote:TEAM SELECTION MUST BE BASED ON THE PRINCIPLE OF MERIT ONLY.
In what dream world?!

MYSTIC:
Let me hastily preface the following with the caveat that I personally believe that Oruma had earned at least the OPPORTUNITY to compete for a squad place.

Nevertheless, it is irrelevant (unless of course for Nigeria's "federal character" considerations) whether a coach selects the proverbial "11 left-footed players from Abakiliki" so long as the coach delivers. Ultimately, the Nigerian coach will be judged on the results that he delivers for NIGERIA, not whether so-and-so player is excelled in the French League...or scoring on the moon!

The validity of any criticism of Chukwu or indeed any other Nigerian national team coach centers on the result (or lack thereof) that HIS team garners -- not on sundry Fantasy League permutations.

WHO is this guy?

theYemster · Post by **theYemster** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:56 am

Baggy wrote:If the interview is true, that those are Oruma's words then, i am disappointed in him.
Why? He has spoken like a little boy who has not even helped his case in the side of the coach.
Now, i don't want to know why CCC did not play invite him.
He should not have gone personal on Okocha.
Why does he have to attack Okocha like that. Is it Okocha that did not invite him.
How dare him trying to compare himself with Okocha. I withdraw that, he was not comparing, he was trying to say that he is better than him. "Okocha can not hold the ball all day", can he?
Also, he is rude. "I would say what's up boy". Is Okocha is mate? Not in age and not in football.
Let him stop getting jealous and concentrate on his football.

Now, i can't fight for his inclusion anymore. Not that i like his game anyway.
Even though, i will say that i am a fair man. He has not help himself at all.

Are you sure you understand the story? Cos from what I read and understand, Oruma didn't attack Okocha but Chukwu. He didn't claim to be better or worse...he says they are different. In fact he even complimented him.

deanotito · Post by **deanotito** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:10 am

Yemster, if you read what I wrote well, you'd understand that my "logic" was aimed solely at the conjecture that team selection should be based on "merit" alone. Reading further, you would have equally seen that if it was up to me, Oruma would have made that team.....but then again, that he was not added cannot be said to be unreasonable in itself because I doubt he would have changed anything. People really dont know how to give a coach the benefit of doubt.

What is this "merit"? If I had made a poll on CE 6 months ago and asked who should start for the eagles-OSAZE OR Yakubu/Agali, most CE members would have said Yak/Agali. But now most CE members would say Osaze. Why? On "merit" Osaze is not fit to wipe Yak's boots, but in actual fact, he is better than Yakubu/Agali. We needed Yakubu to stay up late "drinking coffee" for us to see that fact. Believe me, if Yak and Agali were never sent home, Osaze wouldn't have played more than 20 minutes in the whole tournament(if he played at all).

What people call Merit is rubbish and is not actual merit and I have always been one to think that for the most part, decisions on "merit" should be left to the coach.

You see why coaches should be given some benefit of doubt????? Its not always the way you see it. I repeat, Chukwu's omission of Oruma is understandable cause Oruma hasn't really done anything to make us believe he was entirely necessary in the team. If Chukwu excluded Yobo forinstance, then we could talk of partiality, bribery, and dishonesty, but Oruma cannot be compared to Yobo and Chukwu's reason that Oruma has a MOUNTAIN to climb if he thinks he's going to displace Okocha is not a trivial reason.

Obong · Post by **Obong** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:16 am

Oruma's exclusion was inexcusable,pure and simple.This was an on-form player with recent ANC experience.Now,wasn't he in the same ANC 2002 team with Okocha?Like he pointed out,they are two different type of players and he could have been useful to the team in other midfield and offensive aspects.
That said,if Chukwu has not drawn up a preliminary list of 35 players for the WC qualifiers,that includes the likes of Oruma,Obodo,Melkam,Martins,Kalu Uche(if they are on form),then he needs to get his priorities re-organized.Even the pedestrian fan knows we MUST qualify for Germany '06 to save our football.

Gboye77 · Post by **Gboye77** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:10 am

I wasn't overly impressed with the tone of Oruma's comments. I can understand his obvoius frustration at being left out of the SE squad though.

At any given time there are almost as many opinions on who should play in the SE as there are people in Naija. We should leave that decision to the coach whose responsibility it is to get results . If after a reasonable period, we feel the coach is not delivering he can be sacked!

WINNERMAN · Post by **WINNERMAN** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:06 am

theYemster wrote:
Baggy wrote:If the interview is true, that those are Oruma's words then, i am disappointed in him.
Why? He has spoken like a little boy who has not even helped his case in the side of the coach.
Now, i don't want to know why CCC did not play invite him.
He should not have gone personal on Okocha.
Why does he have to attack Okocha like that. Is it Okocha that did not invite him.
How dare him trying to compare himself with Okocha. I withdraw that, he was not comparing, he was trying to say that he is better than him. "Okocha can not hold the ball all day", can he?
Also, he is rude. "I would say what's up boy". Is Okocha is mate? Not in age and not in football.
Let him stop getting jealous and concentrate on his football.

Now, i can't fight for his inclusion anymore. Not that i like his game anyway.
Even though, i will say that i am a fair man. He has not help himself at all.
Are you sure you understand the story? Cos from what I read and understand, Oruma didn't attack Okocha but Chukwu. He didn't claim to be better or worse...he says they are different. In fact he even complimented him.

Yemster,you are a gem.You put a lot of wisdom in your post.How ppl can reach the conclusion that Oruma is jealous of Okocha from this article beats me.Sycophancy is obviously a trait Oruma does not possess and l will always respect him for that.

WINNERMAN · Post by **WINNERMAN** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:22 am

deanotito wrote:Yemster, if you read what I wrote well, you'd understand that my "logic" was aimed solely at the conjecture that team selection should be based on "merit" alone. Reading further, you would have equally seen that if it was up to me, Oruma would have made that team.....but then again, that he was not added cannot be said to be unreasonable in itself because I doubt he would have changed anything. People really dont know how to give a coach the benefit of doubt.

What is this "merit"? If I had made a poll on CE 6 months ago and asked who should start for the eagles-OSAZE OR Yakubu/Agali, most CE members would have said Yak/Agali. But now most CE members would say Osaze. Why? On "merit" Osaze is not fit to wipe Yak's boots, but in actual fact, he is better than Yakubu/Agali. We needed Yakubu to stay up late "drinking coffee" for us to see that fact. Believe me, if Yak and Agali were never sent home, Osaze wouldn't have played more than 20 minutes in the whole tournament(if he played at all).

What people call Merit is rubbish and is not actual merit and I have always been one to think that for the most part, decisions on "merit" should be left to the coach.

You see why coaches should be given some benefit of doubt????? Its not always the way you see it. I repeat, Chukwu's omission of Oruma is understandable cause Oruma hasn't really done anything to make us believe he was entirely necessary in the team. If Chukwu excluded Yobo forinstance, then we could talk of partiality, bribery, and dishonesty, but Oruma cannot be compared to Yobo and Chukwu's reason that Oruma has a MOUNTAIN to climb if he thinks he's going to displace Okocha is not a trivial reason.

l dont underestand what you are on about.What is 'merit is not merit' and 'what ppl call merit is rubbish' .Haba,cant we understand the simple issue of merit....which in this case means talent,form,consistency,discipline etc etc.

deanotito · Post by **deanotito** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:47 am

Winnerman, if you read your previous post again, you would see there that you qualified merit as a player being "inform"

So this ya "talent, form,consitency, discipline etc etc" crap na after thought....and you should be man enough to admit it.

WINNERMAN · Post by **WINNERMAN** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:07 am

deanotito wrote:Winnerman, if you read your previous post again, you would see there that you qualified merit as a player being "inform"

So this ya "talent, form,consitency, discipline etc etc" crap na after thought....and you should be man enough to admit it.

So merit is no longer 'rubbish'.You got the point now.l have intentionally overlook the insults....

Yettycom · Post by **Yettycom** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:26 am

i wonder why a lot of us are still crying over spilt milk.... he was supposed to be invited, he wasn't... then we move on....

we still got WC qualifiers, invite him and let him prove his mantle....

naija4ever · Post by **naija4ever** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 pm

theYemster wrote:
naija4ever wrote:
MI5 wrote:EII,

You are making excuses here and it's not good. You are a coach yourself and would you pick off form, out of form players who don't know what to do in critical situations, getting overwhelmed by the occassion and many more. You are making CCC look like a genius here by trying to say his selections were justified but we all saw the droppings of many key players for useless players, NFA hijacking the team list and including their own boys, players like Babayaro and Agali who shouldn't have been on the team and many more nonsense that took place behind the scenes. This mago-mago nonsense that took place in Faro is not anything you should be supporting.

In the end the difference was clear when it came to crunch time CCC and the coaching staff didn't know what to do and it showed. When Lemerre was moving players on us and making adjustments CCC stayed clueless on the bench hoping for a miracle from JJ. Yet you are trying to make CCC look like this genius. His subs were pathetic, Ekwueme who came on showed why he should have been watching the game on TV, Ekong and the other players were exposed in the end and yet you are saying this team selection is justified wow....

The Osaze everyone was hyping up as the new boy wonder showed in the end he wasn't up to it when the stakes got higher.. Oruma's play was needed badly especially when the midfield needed infusion and JJ needed an extra support especially to hold things and keep the ball but in the end we all saw CCC shortcomings...For as long as CCC is the coach we are in trouble....

You are making excuses here and it's not good. You are a coach yourself and would you pick off form, out of form players who don't know what to do in critical situations, getting overwhelmed by the occassion and many more. You are making CCC look like a genius here by trying to say his selections were justified but we all saw the droppings of many key players for useless players, NFA hijacking the team list and including their own boys, players like Babayaro and Agali who shouldn't have been on the team and many more nonsense that took place behind the scenes. This mago-mago nonsense that took place in Faro is not anything you should be supporting.
Now We all knew that the list wasnt CCC's, so why blame him for dropping Oruma .

Ekong and the other players were exposed in the end and yet you are saying this team selection is justified wow....
I remember reading from one of the dailes where Ogunjobi was asking naijas to forget about wanting to know why Ekong was included, since there was nothing that could've been done to revise it. Its just typical naija style to blame the coach for every lost whereas the main culprits are the NFA. Has anyone ever blamed the teacher of his kid for his kid's failure in an exam?
Pally, whether it is Chukwu's list or not is irrelevant; if his list was tampered with then he should have either refused or quit; as long as he was in charge, then as far as im concerned that was his list. if it does come out that it wasn't his list then it just goes to show he is not tuff enuff for the job if he can allow people to push him around.

Oruma being at the ANC could've and could have not got the cup for us, it remains to be seen. Anyway, nobody could've judged how he might have performed, but lets see what he has for SE during the WC qualifiers, maybe we dont need to worry anymore as long as he is on as it will guarantee our free ticket to WC 2006. if he flops the same people asking why he wasnt included will be here bashing him as they did against Osaze after the U23 mishap, even though he was hailed as our next messaiah after the S/african match. naijas are always carried away by momentary success and thus too quick to pass judgement.

Enugu II · Post by **Enugu II** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:00 pm

deanotito wrote:Yemster, if you read what I wrote well, you'd understand that my "logic" was aimed solely at the conjecture that team selection should be based on "merit" alone. Reading further, you would have equally seen that if it was up to me, Oruma would have made that team.....but then again, that he was not added cannot be said to be unreasonable in itself because I doubt he would have changed anything. People really dont know how to give a coach the benefit of doubt.

What is this "merit"? If I had made a poll on CE 6 months ago and asked who should start for the eagles-OSAZE OR Yakubu/Agali, most CE members would have said Yak/Agali. But now most CE members would say Osaze. Why? On "merit" Osaze is not fit to wipe Yak's boots, but in actual fact, he is better than Yakubu/Agali. We needed Yakubu to stay up late "drinking coffee" for us to see that fact. Believe me, if Yak and Agali were never sent home, Osaze wouldn't have played more than 20 minutes in the whole tournament(if he played at all).

What people call Merit is rubbish and is not actual merit and I have always been one to think that for the most part, decisions on "merit" should be left to the coach.

You see why coaches should be given some benefit of doubt????? Its not always the way you see it. I repeat, Chukwu's omission of Oruma is understandable cause Oruma hasn't really done anything to make us believe he was entirely necessary in the team. If Chukwu excluded Yobo forinstance, then we could talk of partiality, bribery, and dishonesty, but Oruma cannot be compared to Yobo and Chukwu's reason that Oruma has a MOUNTAIN to climb if he thinks he's going to displace Okocha is not a trivial reason.

Deanotito:

You have said it all. Preople seem to thiink that everyone is on the same page on the players that merit inclusion on a squad. The fact of the matter is that such agreement ONLY exist for CORE PLAYERS and not on any one else. As I said earlier, Oruma was never and is not now a CORE PLAYER and thus that"merit" bandied about on this site is no more than subjective.