FT: Zimbabwe 1 vs Nigeria 1

[spastic]

Boniface has been sensational for the top team in the Bundesliga. Lookman was Atalanta's top performer last season and he has been in good form this year. Awoniyi and Aina have been good for Forest, Moffi had an amazing season last year, Kelechi has been good for Leicester. These are clearly decent players, so what is the issue? Why does it seem they can't make a basic pass?

I just watched a series of Boniface's highlights and can see why he doesn't perform as well for Nigeria. I know Awoniyi and have watched him enough to know why he'll struggle for the SE. I can check out Moffi and Tella and won't be surprised if I find similar.

Aina, on the other hand, is a technically sound player. Same with Bright. too bad they both play at fullback, where you unfortunately, are not as influential

[txj]

Again, I have not been watching most of this particular set of players as closely at club level. But as I have long ago noted, an athletic player can excel in a team full of less athletic players who are technically superior to the athlete. So, you put a superior athlete with deficiencies in his game in the midst of 10 less athletic but technically sound players, and the outcome would be better than if you simply had 11 similarly situated technical players.
no no
I have long sensed that we suffer from this problem. We create lots tough no-nonsense-tackling DMs and CBs who are lacking in the finer details, athletic wingers and Big physical specimens for Strikers. But we generally lack that everyday technically and tactically sound guy who isn't special at anything but makes very few mistakes because they a sound in their technical skill and above average in their tactical awareness.

Right now, I only see 2 players who fit that bill. Iwobi and Bright Osayi-Samuel. Aina is borderline too. Everyone else is below technical standards, it seems.


I mean, I couldn't have been the only one who saw, on multiple occasions, an unpressured Nigerian player misplacing passes to a teammate or trying a cross field pass that gets no where close to the intended target. These are not situations where pressure or the opponent's tactics befuddle said players. Both Zimbabwe and Lesotho set up as basic a formation as one could imagine. And our players were just failing at doing basic footballing things well.

Bottomline is you don't know these players or follow them well enough in their clubs.

Right! But this does not undermine my point. There are obvious answer to why a bunch of players at different clubs play well at club level but don't do so well for the national team. The perpetual LC-ist Danfo pointed out that Lookman plays at striker at his club but gets played as a winger for Nigeria. Perhaps he lacks the natural skill that one would expect from a wide midfielder. This again supports my theory. And in as much as I don't watch lots of these guys, I watch the ones in the Premier League and the Championship, and my claims are true of those players.
SO for example, this applies to Awoniyi. A physical specimen with strength, power and pace who excels in a mostly defensive team that counterattacks against an open defense where he can bully individual defenders 1 v 1. It is not surprising to me that he struggles on a team that controls possession (albeit poorly) trying to breakdown a sucken defensive line.

Oh just for fun, I just watched a highlight of Boniface's best moves and the same issues I saw in one game were all over the highlights. Poor control of the ball, loose technique, etc. But this is interspersed with great show of driving strength when on the ball, a general decent eye for a pass in attacking phases (something he also shows at the National team) a powerful shot and an ability to hold off defenders easily to bring in teammates.

Now if you take all the qualities Boniface is good at and those he is bad at and transplant it to the Super Eagles context it is easy to see how he might turn out poor performances.

1. He holds of defenders well, but if none of the midfielders are running off him, then this would be of little advantage, and he simply passes back.

2. He has a good eye for a pass in the attacking phase (We saw that in his pass to Awoniyi that was fluffed, and again another pass to the tall guy that also fluffed his chance. There was also an occasion late in the Lesotho game where he noodded back a cross into a dangerous area but none of his teammates thought to attack the ball.

3. We see less of his driving at the opposition because Nigeria moves the ball very slowly and deliberately as many players simply are not technically sound enough to quicken the pace of ball movement. They don't trust their technique and for good reason. It is decidedly poor. So that side of Boniface's game (which is one of his best qualities) is gets negated by our style of play.

4. Now to the negative. He isn't very good at controlling the ball very well; even at club level, he fences a lot as part of his tool to wrestle the ball under control before attacking.

Now, take all the above and apply it to the Nigerian context, and what you get is a strong player with a decent eye for a pass, poor ball control, who seldom gets to run at the opposition or showcase his good vision in attacking areas because he is playing with others who get the ball to the front very slowly. It's not a surprise or a shocker that it looks like he isn't playing as well as he does at club level. Its expected.

You are actually reinforcing my point!

As I mentioned the role of a coach is to put players in a position/role that maximizes their best qualities.

Take the Awoniyi example above. You are absolutely right about his role in his club and the way his club plays. How then do you explain the repeated use of same player in a central role in a low block?

Same with Lookman, who at Atalanta is more a 10.5 than an 11, from where he's expected to push up centrally to create an attacking duo when they are in possession. This is the same player toiling away for Nigeria on the wide left flank.
When he runs inside, as he's used to, there is zero complimentary movement.

Tactical organization in football is about relationships between players- in movement and counter movement; in passing and movement...

You look at the 4 top strikers Nigeria currently has (by value): Osimhen, Boniface, Sadiq and Awoniyi, they have one thing in common. They occupy space; meaning they cover the ENTIRE forward line.

How does it begin to make sense to play Osimhen, Boniface and then Kele behind them, without sacrificing their best qualities? And this from a NT manager who at best will get 1 or 2 days of training...

There are many ways to play the game. That is the beauty of the spot. You don't have to have players with technical wizardry to be successful. Liverpool won everything in Europe with 4 MFs whose role was far more physical/tactical than technical...

You design the game to suit the best qualities of your top players...

[Enugu II]

Again, I have not been watching most of this particular set of players as closely at club level. But as I have long ago noted, an athletic player can excel in a team full of less athletic players who are technically superior to the athlete. So, you put a superior athlete with deficiencies in his game in the midst of 10 less athletic but technically sound players, and the outcome would be better than if you simply had 11 similarly situated technical players.
no no
I have long sensed that we suffer from this problem. We create lots tough no-nonsense-tackling DMs and CBs who are lacking in the finer details, athletic wingers and Big physical specimens for Strikers. But we generally lack that everyday technically and tactically sound guy who isn't special at anything but makes very few mistakes because they a sound in their technical skill and above average in their tactical awareness.

Right now, I only see 2 players who fit that bill. Iwobi and Bright Osayi-Samuel. Aina is borderline too. Everyone else is below technical standards, it seems.


I mean, I couldn't have been the only one who saw, on multiple occasions, an unpressured Nigerian player misplacing passes to a teammate or trying a cross field pass that gets no where close to the intended target. These are not situations where pressure or the opponent's tactics befuddle said players. Both Zimbabwe and Lesotho set up as basic a formation as one could imagine. And our players were just failing at doing basic footballing things well.

Bottomline is you don't know these players or follow them well enough in their clubs.

Right! But this does not undermine my point. There are obvious answer to why a bunch of players at different clubs play well at club level but don't do so well for the national team. The perpetual LC-ist Danfo pointed out that Lookman plays at striker at his club but gets played as a winger for Nigeria. Perhaps he lacks the natural skill that one would expect from a wide midfielder. This again supports my theory. And in as much as I don't watch lots of these guys, I watch the ones in the Premier League and the Championship, and my claims are true of those players.
SO for example, this applies to Awoniyi. A physical specimen with strength, power and pace who excels in a mostly defensive team that counterattacks against an open defense where he can bully individual defenders 1 v 1. It is not surprising to me that he struggles on a team that controls possession (albeit poorly) trying to breakdown a sucken defensive line.

Oh just for fun, I just watched a highlight of Boniface's best moves and the same issues I saw in one game were all over the highlights. Poor control of the ball, loose technique, etc. But this is interspersed with great show of driving strength when on the ball, a general decent eye for a pass in attacking phases (something he also shows at the National team) a powerful shot and an ability to hold off defenders easily to bring in teammates.

Now if you take all the qualities Boniface is good at and those he is bad at and transplant it to the Super Eagles context it is easy to see how he might turn out poor performances.

1. He holds of defenders well, but if none of the midfielders are running off him, then this would be of little advantage, and he simply passes back.

2. He has a good eye for a pass in the attacking phase (We saw that in his pass to Awoniyi that was fluffed, and again another pass to the tall guy that also fluffed his chance. There was also an occasion late in the Lesotho game where he noodded back a cross into a dangerous area but none of his teammates thought to attack the ball.

3. We see less of his driving at the opposition because Nigeria moves the ball very slowly and deliberately as many players simply are not technically sound enough to quicken the pace of ball movement. They don't trust their technique and for good reason. It is decidedly poor. So that side of Boniface's game (which is one of his best qualities) is gets negated by our style of play.

4. Now to the negative. He isn't very good at controlling the ball very well; even at club level, he fences a lot as part of his tool to wrestle the ball under control before attacking.

Now, take all the above and apply it to the Nigerian context, and what you get is a strong player with a decent eye for a pass, poor ball control, who seldom gets to run at the opposition or showcase his good vision in attacking areas because he is playing with others who get the ball to the front very slowly. It's not a surprise or a shocker that it looks like he isn't playing as well as he does at club level. Its expected.

Spastic

Good points. This, in generally, harkens to the point that I made on another thread that simply watching a players perform at his European club does not translate automatically to the NT. This should be clear and easy to understand. In Nigeria's case, the team plays differently compared to how some of the clubs play. Besides, it is an entirely different playing environment with different team mates and various styles. Take the [point that you make on how Nigeria plays slowly with ball possession. The pace differs remarkably with some of these clubs when you watch the latter in their league games. There are loads of other differences to talk about that make it difficult for these players to translate the same club performance to the NT level. In my view, the players that will have less difficulty translate their skills are those that are supremely gifted in ball skills and play at a pace to overcome opponents.

[txj]

Again, I have not been watching most of this particular set of players as closely at club level. But as I have long ago noted, an athletic player can excel in a team full of less athletic players who are technically superior to the athlete. So, you put a superior athlete with deficiencies in his game in the midst of 10 less athletic but technically sound players, and the outcome would be better than if you simply had 11 similarly situated technical players.
no no
I have long sensed that we suffer from this problem. We create lots tough no-nonsense-tackling DMs and CBs who are lacking in the finer details, athletic wingers and Big physical specimens for Strikers. But we generally lack that everyday technically and tactically sound guy who isn't special at anything but makes very few mistakes because they a sound in their technical skill and above average in their tactical awareness.

Right now, I only see 2 players who fit that bill. Iwobi and Bright Osayi-Samuel. Aina is borderline too. Everyone else is below technical standards, it seems.


I mean, I couldn't have been the only one who saw, on multiple occasions, an unpressured Nigerian player misplacing passes to a teammate or trying a cross field pass that gets no where close to the intended target. These are not situations where pressure or the opponent's tactics befuddle said players. Both Zimbabwe and Lesotho set up as basic a formation as one could imagine. And our players were just failing at doing basic footballing things well.

Bottomline is you don't know these players or follow them well enough in their clubs.

Right! But this does not undermine my point. There are obvious answer to why a bunch of players at different clubs play well at club level but don't do so well for the national team. The perpetual LC-ist Danfo pointed out that Lookman plays at striker at his club but gets played as a winger for Nigeria. Perhaps he lacks the natural skill that one would expect from a wide midfielder. This again supports my theory. And in as much as I don't watch lots of these guys, I watch the ones in the Premier League and the Championship, and my claims are true of those players.
SO for example, this applies to Awoniyi. A physical specimen with strength, power and pace who excels in a mostly defensive team that counterattacks against an open defense where he can bully individual defenders 1 v 1. It is not surprising to me that he struggles on a team that controls possession (albeit poorly) trying to breakdown a sucken defensive line.

Oh just for fun, I just watched a highlight of Boniface's best moves and the same issues I saw in one game were all over the highlights. Poor control of the ball, loose technique, etc. But this is interspersed with great show of driving strength when on the ball, a general decent eye for a pass in attacking phases (something he also shows at the National team) a powerful shot and an ability to hold off defenders easily to bring in teammates.

Now if you take all the qualities Boniface is good at and those he is bad at and transplant it to the Super Eagles context it is easy to see how he might turn out poor performances.

1. He holds of defenders well, but if none of the midfielders are running off him, then this would be of little advantage, and he simply passes back.

2. He has a good eye for a pass in the attacking phase (We saw that in his pass to Awoniyi that was fluffed, and again another pass to the tall guy that also fluffed his chance. There was also an occasion late in the Lesotho game where he noodded back a cross into a dangerous area but none of his teammates thought to attack the ball.

3. We see less of his driving at the opposition because Nigeria moves the ball very slowly and deliberately as many players simply are not technically sound enough to quicken the pace of ball movement. They don't trust their technique and for good reason. It is decidedly poor. So that side of Boniface's game (which is one of his best qualities) is gets negated by our style of play.

4. Now to the negative. He isn't very good at controlling the ball very well; even at club level, he fences a lot as part of his tool to wrestle the ball under control before attacking.

Now, take all the above and apply it to the Nigerian context, and what you get is a strong player with a decent eye for a pass, poor ball control, who seldom gets to run at the opposition or showcase his good vision in attacking areas because he is playing with others who get the ball to the front very slowly. It's not a surprise or a shocker that it looks like he isn't playing as well as he does at club level. Its expected.

Spastic

Good points. This, in generally, harkens to the point that I made on another thread that simply watching a players perform at his European club does not translate automatically to the NT. This should be clear and easy to understand. In Nigeria's case, the team plays differently compared to how some of the clubs play. Besides, it is an entirely different playing environment with different team mates and various styles. Take the [point that you make on how Nigeria plays slowly with ball possession. The pace differs remarkably with some of these clubs when you watch the latter in their league games. There are loads of other differences to talk about that make it difficult for these players to translate the same club performance to the NT level. In my view, the players that will have less difficulty translate their skills are those that are supremely gifted in ball skills and play at a pace to overcome opponents.

Players take different times to acclimatize to international football. That is however not a question of a lack of ability. Its a function of management

[spastic]

Right! But this does not undermine my point. There are obvious answer to why a bunch of players at different clubs play well at club level but don't do so well for the national team. The perpetual LC-ist Danfo pointed out that Lookman plays at striker at his club but gets played as a winger for Nigeria. Perhaps he lacks the natural skill that one would expect from a wide midfielder. This again supports my theory. And in as much as I don't watch lots of these guys, I watch the ones in the Premier League and the Championship, and my claims are true of those players.
SO for example, this applies to Awoniyi. A physical specimen with strength, power and pace who excels in a mostly defensive team that counterattacks against an open defense where he can bully individual defenders 1 v 1. It is not surprising to me that he struggles on a team that controls possession (albeit poorly) trying to breakdown a sucken defensive line.

Oh just for fun, I just watched a highlight of Boniface's best moves and the same issues I saw in one game were all over the highlights. Poor control of the ball, loose technique, etc. But this is interspersed with great show of driving strength when on the ball, a general decent eye for a pass in attacking phases (something he also shows at the National team) a powerful shot and an ability to hold off defenders easily to bring in teammates.

Now if you take all the qualities Boniface is good at and those he is bad at and transplant it to the Super Eagles context it is easy to see how he might turn out poor performances.

1. He holds of defenders well, but if none of the midfielders are running off him, then this would be of little advantage, and he simply passes back.

2. He has a good eye for a pass in the attacking phase (We saw that in his pass to Awoniyi that was fluffed, and again another pass to the tall guy that also fluffed his chance. There was also an occasion late in the Lesotho game where he noodded back a cross into a dangerous area but none of his teammates thought to attack the ball.

3. We see less of his driving at the opposition because Nigeria moves the ball very slowly and deliberately as many players simply are not technically sound enough to quicken the pace of ball movement. They don't trust their technique and for good reason. It is decidedly poor. So that side of Boniface's game (which is one of his best qualities) is gets negated by our style of play.

4. Now to the negative. He isn't very good at controlling the ball very well; even at club level, he fences a lot as part of his tool to wrestle the ball under control before attacking.

Now, take all the above and apply it to the Nigerian context, and what you get is a strong player with a decent eye for a pass, poor ball control, who seldom gets to run at the opposition or showcase his good vision in attacking areas because he is playing with others who get the ball to the front very slowly. It's not a surprise or a shocker that it looks like he isn't playing as well as he does at club level. Its expected.

Spastic

Good points. This, in generally, harkens to the point that I made on another thread that simply watching a players perform at his European club does not translate automatically to the NT. This should be clear and easy to understand. In Nigeria's case, the team plays differently compared to how some of the clubs play. Besides, it is an entirely different playing environment with different team mates and various styles. Take the [point that you make on how Nigeria plays slowly with ball possession. The pace differs remarkably with some of these clubs when you watch the latter in their league games. There are loads of other differences to talk about that make it difficult for these players to translate the same club performance to the NT level. In my view, the players that will have less difficulty translate their skills are those that are supremely gifted in ball skills and play at a pace to overcome opponents.

Very true. There is a certain set of skills, IMHO, that translate more readily from club football to national team football. Players with very good ball control, quick decision-making, a consistent and varied passing arsenal, and energetic play (especially defensively) tend to translate almost seamlessly from club to national team. And the fewer of those core skills a player has in abundance, the greater the chances that an inferior version of them will often show up at the national team level.

As much as I like for example, Boniface's vision in tight spaces, Iheanacho's calmness in the box, or Awoniyi's strength, etc. A change in conditions does tend to make those skills less apparent.

[spastic]

Players take different times to acclimatize to international football. That is however not a question of a lack of ability. Its a function of management

Sure. But you are bound to miss the point when you use general terms like "lack of ability." Because the claim is not that any particular player lacks general ability, they wouldn't be at good European clubs if they did. But rather, that too many of them may lack certain specific abilities which in turn makes team cohesion and effectiveness less likely.

Another way to look at it is this: Suppose you have a team filled with very capable defensive midfielders. All of them attacks demolishing studs at their respective clubs, yet when you put all of them together in a midfield, they play poorly and create absolutely little.

To then say, "This is not a question of a lack of ability," will be generally true. But it will be a question of a lack of "specific" ability to create chances.

So while your statement is true in the generic sense, it fails to address the issue as it relates to the claims made by Enugu II or myself.

[spastic]

He was the one telling us how Collins "performed" against Lesotho a few days ago. I am tired of this fanbase.

Yes, because he did. Or did you not watch the game? Was I supposed to base my judgments of his performance on something other than the actual game he played? Abeg! Stick to your FC/LC rants O. It suits you better.

[txj]

Players take different times to acclimatize to international football. That is however not a question of a lack of ability. Its a function of management

Sure. But you are bound to miss the point when you use general terms like "lack of ability." Because the claim is not that any particular player lacks general ability, they wouldn't be at good European clubs if they did. But rather, that too many of them may lack certain specific abilities which in turn makes team cohesion and effectiveness less likely.

Another way to look at it is this: Suppose you have a team filled with very capable defensive midfielders. All of them attacks demolishing studs at their respective clubs, yet when you put all of them together in a midfield, they play poorly and create absolutely little.

To then say, "This is not a question of a lack of ability," will be generally true. But it will be a question of a lack of "specific" ability to create chances.

So while your statement is true in the generic sense, it fails to address the issue as it relates to the claims made by Enugu II or myself.

But the claim ignores the fact that teams are developed to play at high levels with players of different technical levels. I gave you an example of Liverpool which you conveniently ignored.

Its about playing to the different qualities of your players...

[Cellular]

Players take different times to acclimatize to international football. That is however not a question of a lack of ability. Its a function of management

Sure. But you are bound to miss the point when you use general terms like "lack of ability." Because the claim is not that any particular player lacks general ability, they wouldn't be at good European clubs if they did. But rather, that too many of them may lack certain specific abilities which in turn makes team cohesion and effectiveness less likely.

Another way to look at it is this: Suppose you have a team filled with very capable defensive midfielders. All of them attacks demolishing studs at their respective clubs, yet when you put all of them together in a midfield, they play poorly and create absolutely little.

To then say, "This is not a question of a lack of ability," will be generally true. But it will be a question of a lack of "specific" ability to create chances.

So while your statement is true in the generic sense, it fails to address the issue as it relates to the claims made by Enugu II or myself.

But the claim ignores the fact that teams are developed to play at high levels with players of different technical levels. I gave you an example of Liverpool which you conveniently ignored.

Its about playing to the different qualities of your players...

I think you stated it a while ago that you have to find complimentary players.


I don't even believe that this coach knows how to do that.

[txj]

Players take different times to acclimatize to international football. That is however not a question of a lack of ability. Its a function of management

Sure. But you are bound to miss the point when you use general terms like "lack of ability." Because the claim is not that any particular player lacks general ability, they wouldn't be at good European clubs if they did. But rather, that too many of them may lack certain specific abilities which in turn makes team cohesion and effectiveness less likely.

Another way to look at it is this: Suppose you have a team filled with very capable defensive midfielders. All of them attacks demolishing studs at their respective clubs, yet when you put all of them together in a midfield, they play poorly and create absolutely little.

To then say, "This is not a question of a lack of ability," will be generally true. But it will be a question of a lack of "specific" ability to create chances.

So while your statement is true in the generic sense, it fails to address the issue as it relates to the claims made by Enugu II or myself.

But the claim ignores the fact that teams are developed to play at high levels with players of different technical levels. I gave you an example of Liverpool which you conveniently ignored.

Its about playing to the different qualities of your players...

I think you stated it a while ago that you have to find complimentary players.


I don't even believe that this coach knows how to do that.

Not only that he does not, he is trying to implement combinations that a NT manager with only 1-2days training should not be doing. What is worse, there is no evidence that he is using zoom sessions as most modern INTERNATIONAL MANAGERS ARE USING TO DEVELOP CONCEPTS AHEAD OF CAMPING...