Hatem Ben Arfa suffers broken leg, Newcastle confirm

[Coach]

Without detracting from the focus of conversation here, but the mention of Roy 'Good Samaritan' Keane warrants eulogy.

Squeeky clean Roy Keane. Celebrated as one of the Premiership's all time greats.

Exhibit A






Keane kung-fu kick was final straw for Sunderland players
05.12.08 | tribalfootball.com

Exhibit B
An amazing kung-fu kick by Roy Keane was the final straw for Sunderland players, it has been revealed.

The Sun says at half-time during one game this season, Keane asked one of his assistants to set up the tactics board while he disappeared into the toilet.

He returned to launch a kung-fu kick at the object, sending it flying into the wall of the dressing room.

He then called three different players a ‘c***’ and took a swipe at another one, only just missing his jaw.

Exhibit C
Read the Dwight Yorke interview in which he talks about working alongside Roy Kaene. News of the World exclusive:
By Cliff Hayes, 27/09/2009

DWIGHT YORKE still has the shocking, X-rated and abusive text message Roy Keane sent him after walking out on his first job in management.

Yorke pinged his old Manchester United team-mate a heartfelt phone text, commiserating with him after Keane dramatically quit Sunderland.

But Keane's blunt three-word reply still shocks his fellow United Treble winner to this day.

And Yorke reveals: "The rumours of his departure had been flying around for a while, but when it happened it was still a surprise.

"So I sent him a text saying how sorry I was how things had turned out, but thanking him for the chance at Sunderland and wishing him all the best for the future.

"Ten minutes later, I got my reply: 'Go f*** yourself.'

Exhibit D (with a little bit of B)
He said: "At half-time Keano began ranting and raving before we even had time to sit down. He was having a go at Peter for having given away a soft goal.

"My team-mates were at each other's throats.

Yorke also confimed the story of how Keane kung-fu kicked a dressing room tactics board during an explosive Sunderland half-time row with the Black Cats 1-0 down to Northampton in a Carling Cup tie.

"He asked our kit manager if he can get the tactics board. The board goes up. And Keano takes a running jump and smashes it with a kung-fu kick.

"Then the captain, Dean Whitehead, is next. 'Captain? Captain? Some f***ing captain you are,' he rags, slapping Dean about the head in the process before turning on us all. 'I can't trust any of you.'"

Read more: http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Yo ... z11gxhazP8

And they say humanity is dead.

@Txj, how would you appraise the above? Is there any evidence there to support the painting of Roy Keane with the same brush as De Jong, or the otherwise faultless tackles success ratio, as we've been told, enough to denounce any such claim to thuggery?

[ojafranpa]

Maybe Arsenal should sign Cattermole and Dean Whitehead so Coach can be at peace.

[spastic]

So long as Txj and Waffi continue to participate in this discussion we are doomed to engaging fantasy driven diatribes and childlike idiocies I keep coming back to this thread to see an unwillingness on the parts of adults to think like one.
When are the adults gong to join the discussion

[tolahs]

Maybe Arsenal should sign Cattermole and Dean Whitehead so Coach can be at peace.

$$$$

[txj]

Murphy points finger at managers over bad tackles
By ESPNsoccernet staff

October 7, 2010

The Cottagers have been consistently high up in the Premier League's Fair Play league in recent years, especially under former boss Roy Hodgson, and Murphy has now spoken out over the ''ridiculous'' and ''brainless'' tackles that have seen a rash of players suffering broken legs of late - including his team-mate Bobby Zamora.

Specifically targeting the managers of clubs who aim to stop other sides playing attacking football, Murphy was quite clear about where the finger of blame should point.

''Your manager dictates what your players do and how you behave,'' Murphy told the Leaders in Football conference in London. ''You get managers who are sending their teams out to stop other teams playing, which is happening more and more - the Stokes, Blackburns, Wolves.

''They can say it's effective and they have got to win games but the fact is the managers are sending out their players so pumped up there is inevitably going to be problems. Every ship has a captain and that's the manager who is in charge.''

Murphy added there should be tougher sanctions for dangerous tackles - especially for repeat offenders.

''The pace in which some players go into tackles now is ridiculous. There's no brains involved in the players who are doing that,'' he said. ''I don't believe players are going out to break another player's leg but there has to be some logic and intelligence involved.

''If you are going at someone at a certain pace and you don't get it right you are going to hurt them. Players should be culpable for that, in terms of punishment I don't know what - but they need to show a little bit more intelligence, especially the ones who are doing it repeatedly.''

However, the Fulham skipper was quick to hail his former boss Hodgson as an example of the type of manager who would not let his players step out of line on the pitch.

''If you have a manager like Roy Hodgson in charge you don't get discipline problems,'' he said. ''If you have a manager that's in control of the team and doesn't allow these type of things to go on then you are going to have a more disciplined team. I'm not saying tackling is a bad thing but we want to watch the best players on the pitch.

''Under Roy Hodgson at Fulham we were always top of the Fair Play league because he wouldn't accept talking back to the referee and he wouldn't accept stupid tackles.''


http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story ... nd&cc=5901

[Coach]

@ Oya Grandpa, take your Detrusitol and be easy. This debate isn't as simplistic as your contribution, no doubt born out of incontinence, suggests. Seldom does he who walks into a conversation mid-way know the topic of discussion. If you have some valid contributions, feel free to toss your tu'pence. One would suggest perusing the thread in its entirety to understand the viewpoints held.

[ojafranpa]

@ Oya Grandpa, take your Detrusitol and be easy. This debate isn't as simplistic as your contribution, no doubt born out of incontinence, suggests. Seldom does he who walks into a conversation mid-way know the topic of discussion. If you have some valid contributions, feel free to toss your tu'pence. One would suggest perusing the thread in its entirety to understand the viewpoints held.

Sir, i know what the discussion is all about,for you to be supporting a player like Cattermole or whatever says a lot about your soccer knowledge.

[ojafranpa]

Coach i repeat Wenger will be signing Cattermole,Whitehead,Shawcross and Henry in January transfer window because of their tackling prowess .

[Mudi E]

I didn't even want to look at the video of the hurt player as the injury to Eduardo few years ago made me sick to my stomach for days.

[Coach]

@ Oya Grandpa, think you've missed the point entirely. Age can be so cruel. No one is suggesting Arsenal add any of the such to their artillery, but rather raising an argument against the taboo that surrounds certain players. If any have experience of sitting in a dressing room, at whatever level, they will be familiar with the creed that encourages 'combativeness, commitment', the key doctrine being to 'let the opposition know they're in a game'. Now, that is not to say such rhetroic is just, but rather to emphasise the universalityuof this approach. Alex Ferguson, arguably one of the greatest managers of all time, employed his toughest tacklers whenever the Arsenal came to town. The flair that could be was sacrificed for the wind-up clockwork mouse that is Darren Fletcher. T'is not the former who makes the tackles, but they are made under his instruction, does that make him a 'thug?'. All too often we castigate the Allardyce's and Pulis', but seldom do we bemaon Ferguson 'letting them know they're in a game', why?

...Early in thia discussion someone eluded to the art of tackling and another listed Roy Keane as one the games greatest tacklers. The gospel according to Txj reads that, persistent fouling does not translate into 'thuggery', nor does 'intent' add weight to its definition. Its more about the manner of tackle. A good tackler never leaves his man with life but no limb. De Jong et al are thugs for, not only are they poor tacklers, but they masquerade their lack of skill in this regard, but employing excessive force in the tackle. Hence the 'previous'. Now it all makes sense, right? wrong. Thats where Catermole comes in, treading the thin line that separates legality from unjust. Red cards for persistent fouling, but alas, we've already concluded that persistent fouling is not a sign of 'thuggishness'. Though many wait with bated breath for the echo of a tibia's crack, till this day, he cannot lay claim to the achievements of De Jong or Henry. Does the fact that he hasn't broken any bones despite playing the game so close to the rules border say anything of his tackling ability? Question.

...Then, we return to Roy Keane, heralded by many as the finest midfielder to grace the lands, but more importantly, cited as an example for De Jong to folllow above. Does the Alf Inge Haaland affair change that appraisal? Does the fact that Keane retired a fellow professional with a tackle as cynical as any of the above, render him a 'thug'. Does his verbal abuse and attempted physical assault of his players at Sunderland lend any weight to the conclusion reached? Does his derrogatory dismissing of Dwight Yorke's goodwill gesture suggest any more than his presumed Samaritaness? The point being made is, or rather question being asked is, just what is the yardstick by which people are judging the De Jongs et al and using those same measures, could they offer an appraisal of Roy Keane please?

With breath as bated as those above, one awaits the reply. Thanks to all contributants thus far for an enthralling debate. And those unable to make worthy contribution, the colouring-in book calls.

[txj]

Again you are mixing things up. Persistent fouling by the likes of Messi, Eto and Honda cannot be equated to serial horrific tackling by the likes of Catermole. Not every foul is the product of a tackle. Ur continued use of Catermole as justification gets weaker with each post it can actually be mistaken for the chinese currency!

As for Roy Keane, I never mentioned him as an example...

@ Oya Grandpa, think you've missed the point entirely. Age can be so cruel. No one is suggesting Arsenal add any of the such to their artillery, but rather raising an argument against the taboo that surrounds certain players. If any have experience of sitting in a dressing room, at whatever level, they will be familiar with the creed that encourages 'combativeness, commitment', the key doctrine being to 'let the opposition know they're in a game'. Now, that is not to say such rhetroic is just, but rather to emphasise the universalityuof this approach. Alex Ferguson, arguably one of the greatest managers of all time, employed his toughest tacklers whenever the Arsenal came to town. The flair that could be was sacrificed for the wind-up clockwork mouse that is Darren Fletcher. T'is not the former who makes the tackles, but they are made under his instruction, does that make him a 'thug?'. All too often we castigate the Allardyce's and Pulis', but seldom do we bemaon Ferguson 'letting them know they're in a game', why?

...Early in thia discussion someone eluded to the art of tackling and another listed Roy Keane as one the games greatest tacklers. The gospel according to Txj reads that, persistent fouling does not translate into 'thuggery', nor does 'intent' add weight to its definition. Its more about the manner of tackle. A good tackler never leaves his man with life but no limb. De Jong et al are thugs for, not only are they poor tacklers, but they masquerade their lack of skill in this regard, but employing excessive force in the tackle. Hence the 'previous'. Now it all makes sense, right? wrong. Thats where Catermole comes in, treading the thin line that separates legality from unjust. Red cards for persistent fouling, but alas, we've already concluded that persistent fouling is not a sign of 'thuggishness'. Though many wait with bated breath for the echo of a tibia's crack, till this day, he cannot lay claim to the achievements of De Jong or Henry. Does the fact that he hasn't broken any bones despite playing the game so close to the rules border say anything of his tackling ability? Question.

...Then, we return to Roy Keane, heralded by many as the finest midfielder to grace the lands, but more importantly, cited as an example for De Jong to folllow above. Does the Alf Inge Haaland affair change that appraisal? Does the fact that Keane retired a fellow professional with a tackle as cynical as any of the above, render him a 'thug'. Does his verbal abuse and attempted physical assault of his players at Sunderland lend any weight to the conclusion reached? Does his derrogatory dismissing of Dwight Yorke's goodwill gesture suggest any more than his presumed Samaritaness? The point being made is, or rather question being asked is, just what is the yardstick by which people are judging the De Jongs et al and using those same measures, could they offer an appraisal of Roy Keane please?

With breath as bated as those above, one awaits the reply. Thanks to all contributants thus far for an enthralling debate. And those unable to make worthy contribution, the colouring-in book calls.

[Waffiman]

I mentioned Roy Keane but of course, the context in which I mentioned him has not been used in the debate.

I must have watched Roy Keane live for well over 30 games. I know he was a very good tackler as well as being a great all round footballer, he was one who used the tackle as a last resort. I did not mention the violence of his nature, which he exhibited when he had to. However, his violence side did not take away the fact that he was a great footballer.

Again you are mixing things up. Persistent fouling by the likes of Messi, Eto and Honda cannot be equated to serial horrific tackling by the likes of Catermole. Not every foul is the product of a tackle. Ur continued use of Catermole as justification gets weaker with each post it can actually be mistaken for the chinese currency!

As for Roy Keane, I never mentioned him as an example...

@ Oya Grandpa, think you've missed the point entirely. Age can be so cruel. No one is suggesting Arsenal add any of the such to their artillery, but rather raising an argument against the taboo that surrounds certain players. If any have experience of sitting in a dressing room, at whatever level, they will be familiar with the creed that encourages 'combativeness, commitment', the key doctrine being to 'let the opposition know they're in a game'. Now, that is not to say such rhetroic is just, but rather to emphasise the universalityuof this approach. Alex Ferguson, arguably one of the greatest managers of all time, employed his toughest tacklers whenever the Arsenal came to town. The flair that could be was sacrificed for the wind-up clockwork mouse that is Darren Fletcher. T'is not the former who makes the tackles, but they are made under his instruction, does that make him a 'thug?'. All too often we castigate the Allardyce's and Pulis', but seldom do we bemaon Ferguson 'letting them know they're in a game', why?

...Early in thia discussion someone eluded to the art of tackling and another listed Roy Keane as one the games greatest tacklers. The gospel according to Txj reads that, persistent fouling does not translate into 'thuggery', nor does 'intent' add weight to its definition. Its more about the manner of tackle. A good tackler never leaves his man with life but no limb. De Jong et al are thugs for, not only are they poor tacklers, but they masquerade their lack of skill in this regard, but employing excessive force in the tackle. Hence the 'previous'. Now it all makes sense, right? wrong. Thats where Catermole comes in, treading the thin line that separates legality from unjust. Red cards for persistent fouling, but alas, we've already concluded that persistent fouling is not a sign of 'thuggishness'. Though many wait with bated breath for the echo of a tibia's crack, till this day, he cannot lay claim to the achievements of De Jong or Henry. Does the fact that he hasn't broken any bones despite playing the game so close to the rules border say anything of his tackling ability? Question.

...Then, we return to Roy Keane, heralded by many as the finest midfielder to grace the lands, but more importantly, cited as an example for De Jong to folllow above. Does the Alf Inge Haaland affair change that appraisal? Does the fact that Keane retired a fellow professional with a tackle as cynical as any of the above, render him a 'thug'. Does his verbal abuse and attempted physical assault of his players at Sunderland lend any weight to the conclusion reached? Does his derrogatory dismissing of Dwight Yorke's goodwill gesture suggest any more than his presumed Samaritaness? The point being made is, or rather question being asked is, just what is the yardstick by which people are judging the De Jongs et al and using those same measures, could they offer an appraisal of Roy Keane please?

With breath as bated as those above, one awaits the reply. Thanks to all contributants thus far for an enthralling debate. And those unable to make worthy contribution, the colouring-in book calls.

[maceo4]

My only question to Spastic is that was a slide tackle necessary based on the Ben Arfa's position on the field, and De Jong's proximity to him? Remember that a slide tackle is generally supposed to be a last ditch effort to dispossess a player.

[spastic]

My only question to Spastic is that was a slide tackle necessary based on the Ben Arfa's position on the field, and De Jong's proximity to him? Remember that a slide tackle is generally supposed to be a last ditch effort to dispossess a player.

Aha! Now you are finally seeing my point! Absofukinglutely not neccessary! However not Illegal which is what the problem is. If Slide tackles were Illegal, like handballs or raising your foot in the Air in a crowd, then this would definitely never had occurred. But therein lies the problem. IT IS LEGAL

By the way, players USE the slide tackle MOSTLY as a last ditch effort, however there is no rule suggesting that is or should be its only use

And considering how dangerous it is. Why is that

[maceo4]

My only question to Spastic is that was a slide tackle necessary based on the Ben Arfa's position on the field, and De Jong's proximity to him? Remember that a slide tackle is generally supposed to be a last ditch effort to dispossess a player.

Aha! Now you are finally seeing my point! Absofukinglutely not neccessary! However not Illegal which is what the problem is. If Slide tackles were Illegal, like handballs or raising your foot in the Air in a crowd, then this would definitely never had occurred. But therein lies the problem. IT IS LEGAL

By the way, players USE the slide tackle MOSTLY as a last ditch effort, however there is no rule suggesting that is or should be its only use

And considering how dangerous it is. Why is that

I get your point, but to me an outright outlaw of slide tackles is NOT going to happen...the next best thing is encouraging the use of slide tackles MAINLY as a last ditch effort, not when the attacker is going nowhere and is far away from your goal. Those kinds of tackles should be discouraged since the slide tackle CAN and DOES lead to injuries. Thats part of my reasoning in saying there are good tackle and there are bad tackles, that reasoning includes the necessity of making such a tackle/taking such a risk. If its unnecessary then its likely a bad tackle, esp if it leads to an injury as De Jong's recurring examples show.

[Coach]

T'was said:'...The best players also have by far the best interception rate and when you closely analyse their tackilng stats, it is clear that they are far better tacklers. Go and study Vieira and Roy Keane tackling success rate and see how many tackles they made in a game. I can tell you now, that Vieira and Keane did not go arounnd making 16 tackles in games, why? They were so good they did not need to. For these great players, tackling was a last resort for winning the ball. When they went in hard, it was usually for retribution to those who have tried the same on them or a team mate earlier.' - Anonymous, identity protected for obvious reasons.

@Txj, the question was simple, how do you measure Roy Keane using the yardstick by which you have labelled De Jong and Catermole. And can you provide an argument to support the conclusion reached.

Again, thanks for the contributions thus far, makes for interesting reading.

[txj]

Roy Keane is a dirty player and a thug. I never cited him as an example...

T'was said:'...The best players also have by far the best interception rate and when you closely analyse their tackilng stats, it is clear that they are far better tacklers. Go and study Vieira and Roy Keane tackling success rate and see how many tackles they made in a game. I can tell you now, that Vieira and Keane did not go arounnd making 16 tackles in games, why? They were so good they did not need to. For these great players, tackling was a last resort for winning the ball. When they went in hard, it was usually for retribution to those who have tried the same on them or a team mate earlier.' - Anonymous, identity protected for obvious reasons.

@Txj, the question was simple, how do you measure Roy Keane using the yardstick by which you have labelled De Jong and Catermole. And can you provide an argument to support the conclusion reached.

Again, thanks for the contributions thus far, makes for interesting reading.

[spastic]

So was Gentile. Albeit he was from a generation where thuggery was readily acceptable

Roy Keane is a dirty player and a thug. I never cited him as an example...

T'was said:'...The best players also have by far the best interception rate and when you closely analyse their tackilng stats, it is clear that they are far better tacklers. Go and study Vieira and Roy Keane tackling success rate and see how many tackles they made in a game. I can tell you now, that Vieira and Keane did not go arounnd making 16 tackles in games, why? They were so good they did not need to. For these great players, tackling was a last resort for winning the ball. When they went in hard, it was usually for retribution to those who have tried the same on them or a team mate earlier.' - Anonymous, identity protected for obvious reasons.

@Txj, the question was simple, how do you measure Roy Keane using the yardstick by which you have labelled De Jong and Catermole. And can you provide an argument to support the conclusion reached.

Again, thanks for the contributions thus far, makes for interesting reading.

[txj]

I suspect u know nothing about Gentile and in ur ususal fashion just throwing out crap for the sake of an arguement.

Gentile never got a red card for a nasty tackle in his entire career like Keane or Catermole...

So was Gentile. Albeit he was from a generation where thuggery was readily acceptable

Roy Keane is a dirty player and a thug. I never cited him as an example...

T'was said:'...The best players also have by far the best interception rate and when you closely analyse their tackilng stats, it is clear that they are far better tacklers. Go and study Vieira and Roy Keane tackling success rate and see how many tackles they made in a game. I can tell you now, that Vieira and Keane did not go arounnd making 16 tackles in games, why? They were so good they did not need to. For these great players, tackling was a last resort for winning the ball. When they went in hard, it was usually for retribution to those who have tried the same on them or a team mate earlier.' - Anonymous, identity protected for obvious reasons.

@Txj, the question was simple, how do you measure Roy Keane using the yardstick by which you have labelled De Jong and Catermole. And can you provide an argument to support the conclusion reached.

Again, thanks for the contributions thus far, makes for interesting reading.

[spastic]

I suspect u know nothing about Gentile and in ur ususal fashion just throwing out crap for the sake of an arguement.

Gentile never got a red card for a nasty tackle in his entire career like Keane or Catermole...

BECAUSE

So was Gentile. Albeit he was from a generation where thuggery was readily acceptable

Roy Keane is a dirty player and a thug. I never cited him as an example...

T'was said:'...The best players also have by far the best interception rate and when you closely analyse their tackilng stats, it is clear that they are far better tacklers. Go and study Vieira and Roy Keane tackling success rate and see how many tackles they made in a game. I can tell you now, that Vieira and Keane did not go arounnd making 16 tackles in games, why? They were so good they did not need to. For these great players, tackling was a last resort for winning the ball. When they went in hard, it was usually for retribution to those who have tried the same on them or a team mate earlier.' - Anonymous, identity protected for obvious reasons.

@Txj, the question was simple, how do you measure Roy Keane using the yardstick by which you have labelled De Jong and Catermole. And can you provide an argument to support the conclusion reached.

Again, thanks for the contributions thus far, makes for interesting reading.

Youe inability to get the connection between 2 premises, is astounding

[/video]
[/video]

Now tell me if that player would not have been red carded in this generation.

Dude stop been a loud mouth and learn something

[txj]

Once more talking bollocks! He played hard but always within the rules. Not in any of the clips did u see him lunge or go in two footed. The rules at that time, contrary to ur false suggestion never promoted thuggery; major difference today is that his tackles from behind would've been called.

Against Maradona for instance he was yellow carded after 10mins or so, but he still was able to mark him out of the game without a 2nd caution.

[spastic]

Once more talking bollocks! He played hard but always within the rules. Not in any of the clips did u see him lunge or go in two footed. The rules at that time, contrary to ur false suggestion never promoted thuggery; major difference today is that his tackles from behind would've been called.

Against Maradona for instance he was yellow carded after 10mins or so, but he still was able to mark him out of the game without a 2nd caution.

Arguing with you can be detrimental to ones intelligence. It is one thing to whoop your ars in an argument. That is par for the course. The sad part is when you don't know your ars is getting whooped That is a degree of cluelessness beyond belief

Now here is our discussion. Let me tacke Coach's advice and use crayons, perhaps you will get it
Green: Evidence of Gentile's Thuggery
Red" Evidence of thuggery being acceptable in that Generation
Purple: Re ipsa loquitor (Google it)
Spaz: Gentile was a thug from a generation where thuggery was readily acceptable (2 points here. 1) Gentile was thuggish 2) such play was acceptable in thtat generation)
Txj: Gentile never got a red card in his career. (Counterpoint Spaz's point "1" only If spaz's point 2 is wrong )
Spaz: Video evidence- Video 0:36 (Gentile Swipes Maradona without touching the ball) ) 0:45 (Gentile swipes out Maradona leaving the ball) 1:20 (Gentile Body and Elbow Checks Maradona without the ball). The combination of these 3 would have gotten you a red card easily today.
Thus, it must be the case that "The generation found such play acceptable

Further evidence: Txj admits that tackles from behind back then would have been legal Again MORE EVIDENCE that such play was acceptable in THAT GENERATION.

You want more evidence- start at minute 1:13- Reporter: "he cancelled out Maradona by denying him the right to play, fairly AND UNFAIRLY And the referee let him get away with it"

Minute 1:50 GENTILE's OWN WORDS : " the Argentineans had nothing to complain about Tarantini, Passarella, Gocheigo were no Angel's themselves" Not only is Gentile NOT denying his dirtiness, he is confirming dirtiness as par for the course in that Generation.

Game, Set, Match? I think so

Arguing with you is like playing baskeball with an infant- It is impossible to lose, but you play to amuse the infant

[txj]

U don't seem to get it. I do not argue with u. You are too stupid for me to argue with. I learnt that as far back as 2003.

I simply inform u and move on...