U17 WC 2013: Age cheating - Adokiye speaks again

[bushboy]

What else should be listed? Name of their friends and siblings?

Can't the journalist find out the schools? The players did not get into the team last week. The journalists met the players many time. They watched the Shell cup etc. If they are actually interested, they can get the information.

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

Did other countries list their players as being in secondary schools?

The player is affiliated with an academy and that's the affiliation shown in official documents. How difficult is that to grasp?

KPOM. It is ridiculous to expect ONLY Nigeria to list the school of the players whereas no other country is required to do this. I bet other non-Nigerian U-17 players also attend school but none of those schools have been listed. That, IMHO, is a poor argument on the issue of age cheating. Nigerian journalists should taken on the task of unearthing the schools of those players as those schools are certainly not required to be listed.

It's not a poor argument, rather something we should ponder on. Whatever other countries do or don't do should not preclude us from making our age group players age cheat proof. After all, when we were using clearly overaged players, many of these other countries were not saying cos Naija was breaking the rules then they have to do same too.

We must continue to strive and be forward looking until we be sure that records taken years earlier on paper will form the basis of selecting players. I keep asking that if the MRI scan hadn't been done t some time, we would have fielded overaged players players so it cannot be ruled out that NFF intended to use overaged players. Added to this is the fear of being disgraced by FIFA's MRI was another motivation but how about if just doing the right thing was the motivation?

I will just sleep on this with one eye closed until genuine paper records like NPC birth certificates, school records plus ancillary data can basically form the reason a player is under 16. After all, the countries you said their players schools were not stated must have used genuine birth certs to a large extents rather than depending solely on MRI.

I said school records, not the schools.
Recently in Ondo State, quite a number of people in the civil service were found to be age cheats just based on their school leaving certificates alone. That's school record...you don't particularly need to go to any school. Let the players submit the cert and all the NFF needs do is to go to the relevant Ministry of Education and match the cert with copies in the Ministry as well as the register of the school the guy went to. Registers are always retired att the Ministry of Education.

I know what you are going to say next is that there is no record that cannot be falsified in Nigeria but I dare you to try falsifying the school leaving cert. Nothing less than 8 PSes were victims of the staff audit exercise in Ondo State.

The only reason why we cannot fish out age cheat is not because we have found a solution in MRI or that it is impossible to do but rather because we don't want to do it.

Why stop there? Why don't we also list their grades in the various subjects they are taking?

[txj]

What else should be listed? Name of their friends and siblings?

Can't the journalist find out the schools? The players did not get into the team last week. The journalists met the players many time. They watched the Shell cup etc. If they are actually interested, they can get the information.

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

Did other countries list their players as being in secondary schools?

The player is affiliated with an academy and that's the affiliation shown in official documents. How difficult is that to grasp?

KPOM. It is ridiculous to expect ONLY Nigeria to list the school of the players whereas no other country is required to do this. I bet other non-Nigerian U-17 players also attend school but none of those schools have been listed. That, IMHO, is a poor argument on the issue of age cheating. Nigerian journalists should taken on the task of unearthing the schools of those players as those schools are certainly not required to be listed.

It's not a poor argument, rather something we should ponder on. Whatever other countries do or don't do should not preclude us from making our age group players age cheat proof. After all, when we were using clearly overaged players, many of these other countries were not saying cos Naija was breaking the rules then they have to do same too.

We must continue to strive and be forward looking until we be sure that records taken years earlier on paper will form the basis of selecting players. I keep asking that if the MRI scan hadn't been done t some time, we would have fielded overaged players players so it cannot be ruled out that NFF intended to use overaged players. Added to this is the fear of being disgraced by FIFA's MRI was another motivation but how about if just doing the right thing was the motivation?

I will just sleep on this with one eye closed until genuine paper records like NPC birth certificates, school records plus ancillary data can basically form the reason a player is under 16. After all, the countries you said their players schools were not stated must have used genuine birth certs to a large extents rather than depending solely on MRI.

I said school records, not the schools.
Recently in Ondo State, quite a number of people in the civil service were found to be age cheats just based on their school leaving certificates alone. That's school record...you don't particularly need to go to any school. Let the players submit the cert and all the NFF needs do is to go to the relevant Ministry of Education and match the cert with copies in the Ministry as well as the register of the school the guy went to. Registers are always retired att the Ministry of Education.

I know what you are going to say next is that there is no record that cannot be falsified in Nigeria but I dare you to try falsifying the school leaving cert. Nothing less than 8 PSes were victims of the staff audit exercise in Ondo State.

The only reason why we cannot fish out age cheat is not because we have found a solution in MRI or that it is impossible to do but rather because we don't want to do it.

Why stop there? Why don't we also list their grades in the various subjects they are taking?

Another red herring...

That does not in any feasible way help the process of verifying their true ages

[anointed]

What else should be listed? Name of their friends and siblings?

Can't the journalist find out the schools? The players did not get into the team last week. The journalists met the players many time. They watched the Shell cup etc. If they are actually interested, they can get the information.

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

Did other countries list their players as being in secondary schools?

The player is affiliated with an academy and that's the affiliation shown in official documents. How difficult is that to grasp?

KPOM. It is ridiculous to expect ONLY Nigeria to list the school of the players whereas no other country is required to do this. I bet other non-Nigerian U-17 players also attend school but none of those schools have been listed. That, IMHO, is a poor argument on the issue of age cheating. Nigerian journalists should taken on the task of unearthing the schools of those players as those schools are certainly not required to be listed.

It's not a poor argument, rather something we should ponder on. Whatever other countries do or don't do should not preclude us from making our age group players age cheat proof. After all, when we were using clearly overaged players, many of these other countries were not saying cos Naija was breaking the rules then they have to do same too.

We must continue to strive and be forward looking until we be sure that records taken years earlier on paper will form the basis of selecting players. I keep asking that if the MRI scan hadn't been done t some time, we would have fielded overaged players players so it cannot be ruled out that NFF intended to use overaged players. Added to this is the fear of being disgraced by FIFA's MRI was another motivation but how about if just doing the right thing was the motivation?

I will just sleep on this with one eye closed until genuine paper records like NPC birth certificates, school records plus ancillary data can basically form the reason a player is under 16. After all, the countries you said their players schools were not stated must have used genuine birth certs to a large extents rather than depending solely on MRI.

I said school records, not the schools.
Recently in Ondo State, quite a number of people in the civil service were found to be age cheats just based on their school leaving certificates alone. That's school record...you don't particularly need to go to any school. Let the players submit the cert and all the NFF needs do is to go to the relevant Ministry of Education and match the cert with copies in the Ministry as well as the register of the school the guy went to. Registers are always retired att the Ministry of Education.

I know what you are going to say next is that there is no record that cannot be falsified in Nigeria but I dare you to try falsifying the school leaving cert. Nothing less than 8 PSes were victims of the staff audit exercise in Ondo State.

The only reason why we cannot fish out age cheat is not because we have found a solution in MRI or that it is impossible to do but rather because we don't want to do it.

Why stop there? Why don't we also list their grades in the various subjects they are taking?

If you have nothing to say, don't say it here.

[captain eb]

Well spoken Adokiye. Thanks Coach Sinclair who coached my team along with Friday Okoh during my playing days with the Rivers State Academicals.

[metalalloy]

Tjx, it would be a good beginning, but again i ask how practical is it for the NFF (with the funding issues they continue to throw out every day) to monitor all the U-13 players in the various academies as rigorously as it does its own internal program? There is a finite amount of players it can maintain under its programs due to funding and there is no guarantee that it will get the best players within the limited group that it includes in its program.

[txj]

Tjx, it would be a good beginning, but again i ask how practical is it for the NFF (with the funding issues they continue to throw out every day) to monitor all the U-13 players in the various academies as rigorously as it does its own internal program? There is a finite amount of players it can maintain under its programs due to funding and there is no guarantee that it will get the best players within the limited group that it includes in its program.

How different is that from what it is currently doing in monitoring the U-13 players in its program?

Surely you are not suggesting that they are currently monitoring all U-13 players in the country?

The focus, as it should be, is on players that they consider to be sufficiently talented....

The issue of funds is a very lame excuse, and I suspect deep down you know it! We as Nigerians can and should be able to tell ourselves the truth!

[metalalloy]

Tjx, it would be a good beginning, but again i ask how practical is it for the NFF (with the funding issues they continue to throw out every day) to monitor all the U-13 players in the various academies as rigorously as it does its own internal program? There is a finite amount of players it can maintain under its programs due to funding and there is no guarantee that it will get the best players within the limited group that it includes in its program.

How different is that from what it is currently doing in monitoring the U-13 players in its program? The difference is in the sheer numbers! To my knowledge, the NFF invites a limited amount of players from the National Unity Cup and camps them for 4 weeks and does this on a quarterly basis. How do you expect them to do that for all u-13 players in the various academies in the country?

Surely you are not suggesting that they are currently monitoring all U-13 players in the country?not sure where you got that from when i clearly say repeatedly that it is not feasible for them to monitor all U-13 players in the country

The focus, as it should be, is on players that they consider to be sufficiently talented....Yes which is the focus at the time they call the camps. They cant surely catch everyone who is sufficiently talented at the same time! The academies are going to catch people that the NFF missed and are you suggesting that the NFF should ignore those players because they were not "monitored" by the NFF from birth?

The issue of funds is a very lame excuse, and I suspect deep down you know it! We as Nigerians can and should be able to tell ourselves the truth!

Well it may be a lame excuse to you, unfortunately, we have to live in the reality on the ground of an organization that has to borrow funds to prosecute a simple world cup qualifier at home.

[txj]

Tjx, it would be a good beginning, but again i ask how practical is it for the NFF (with the funding issues they continue to throw out every day) to monitor all the U-13 players in the various academies as rigorously as it does its own internal program? There is a finite amount of players it can maintain under its programs due to funding and there is no guarantee that it will get the best players within the limited group that it includes in its program.

How different is that from what it is currently doing in monitoring the U-13 players in its program? The difference is in the sheer numbers! To my knowledge, the NFF invites a limited amount of players from the National Unity Cup and camps them for 4 weeks and does this on a quarterly basis. How do you expect them to do that for all u-13 players in the various academies in the country? And it cannot similarly invite a limited number of U-13 players from the academies?

Surely you are not suggesting that they are currently monitoring all U-13 players in the country?not sure where you got that from when i clearly say repeatedly that it is not feasible for them to monitor all U-13 players in the country

The focus, as it should be, is on players that they consider to be sufficiently talented....Yes which is the focus at the time they call the camps. They cant surely catch everyone who is sufficiently talented at the same time! The academies are going to catch people that the NFF missed and are you suggesting that the NFF should ignore those players because they were not "monitored" by the NFF from birth? If you missed them in your own program, surely you can catch them by similarly assessing U-13 players from the academies; ie the limited number that meet the grade; no? Besides, if u missed those 13yr olds at the academies, surely you can catch up between 13 and 15 as you engage in more trials, monitoring, etc..

The issue of funds is a very lame excuse, and I suspect deep down you know it! We as Nigerians can and should be able to tell ourselves the truth!

Well it may be a lame excuse to you, unfortunately, we have to live in the reality on the ground of an organization that has to borrow funds to prosecute a simple world cup qualifier at home. Its still a lame excuse because the association has never claimed that it is constrained by funds to execute this particular program. Seems to me you are the one inventing this excuse for them!

[dhoney]

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

I was expecting you to ask....Why are all the Brazilians U17 players playing in first Division League in their country...?.. Try again..!

[metalalloy]

Tjx, it would be a good beginning, but again i ask how practical is it for the NFF (with the funding issues they continue to throw out every day) to monitor all the U-13 players in the various academies as rigorously as it does its own internal program? There is a finite amount of players it can maintain under its programs due to funding and there is no guarantee that it will get the best players within the limited group that it includes in its program.

How different is that from what it is currently doing in monitoring the U-13 players in its program? The difference is in the sheer numbers! To my knowledge, the NFF invites a limited amount of players from the National Unity Cup and camps them for 4 weeks and does this on a quarterly basis. How do you expect them to do that for all u-13 players in the various academies in the country? And it cannot similarly invite a limited number of U-13 players from the academies?

Surely you are not suggesting that they are currently monitoring all U-13 players in the country?not sure where you got that from when i clearly say repeatedly that it is not feasible for them to monitor all U-13 players in the country

The focus, as it should be, is on players that they consider to be sufficiently talented....Yes which is the focus at the time they call the camps. They cant surely catch everyone who is sufficiently talented at the same time! The academies are going to catch people that the NFF missed and are you suggesting that the NFF should ignore those players because they were not "monitored" by the NFF from birth? If you missed them in your own program, surely you can catch them by similarly assessing U-13 players from the academies; ie the limited number that meet the grade; no? Besides, if u missed those 13yr olds at the academies, surely you can catch up between 13 and 15 as you engage in more trials, monitoring, etc..

The issue of funds is a very lame excuse, and I suspect deep down you know it! We as Nigerians can and should be able to tell ourselves the truth!

Well it may be a lame excuse to you, unfortunately, we have to live in the reality on the ground of an organization that has to borrow funds to prosecute a simple world cup qualifier at home. Its still a lame excuse because the association has never claimed that it is constrained by funds to execute this particular program. Seems to me you are the one inventing this excuse for them!

LOL, you are very good at accusing people of doing things when you are having a conversation. Yet you will be the first one who will cry that someone is getting attacked personally. If you want to go there, i will gladly do so.

You tell me when the NFF ever EVER been asked to monitor all U-13 players in academies in the country (in addition to the U-13 players that the NFF camps quarterly)? How can the NFF "never claim to be constrained by funds" when this unrealistic proposal has never been presented to them because no one with half a brain will be daft enough to think up such a ridiculous notion. If it has been, please present evidence of any record of anyone doing so and i will humbly chop my pie and apologize to you.

Do you know for certain that the players invited by the NFF to its quarterly u-13/15 camp drawn from the Unity cup tournament are not affiliated with any academies?

[txj]

Tjx, it would be a good beginning, but again i ask how practical is it for the NFF (with the funding issues they continue to throw out every day) to monitor all the U-13 players in the various academies as rigorously as it does its own internal program? There is a finite amount of players it can maintain under its programs due to funding and there is no guarantee that it will get the best players within the limited group that it includes in its program.

How different is that from what it is currently doing in monitoring the U-13 players in its program? The difference is in the sheer numbers! To my knowledge, the NFF invites a limited amount of players from the National Unity Cup and camps them for 4 weeks and does this on a quarterly basis. How do you expect them to do that for all u-13 players in the various academies in the country? And it cannot similarly invite a limited number of U-13 players from the academies?

Surely you are not suggesting that they are currently monitoring all U-13 players in the country?not sure where you got that from when i clearly say repeatedly that it is not feasible for them to monitor all U-13 players in the country

The focus, as it should be, is on players that they consider to be sufficiently talented....Yes which is the focus at the time they call the camps. They cant surely catch everyone who is sufficiently talented at the same time! The academies are going to catch people that the NFF missed and are you suggesting that the NFF should ignore those players because they were not "monitored" by the NFF from birth? If you missed them in your own program, surely you can catch them by similarly assessing U-13 players from the academies; ie the limited number that meet the grade; no? Besides, if u missed those 13yr olds at the academies, surely you can catch up between 13 and 15 as you engage in more trials, monitoring, etc..

The issue of funds is a very lame excuse, and I suspect deep down you know it! We as Nigerians can and should be able to tell ourselves the truth!

Well it may be a lame excuse to you, unfortunately, we have to live in the reality on the ground of an organization that has to borrow funds to prosecute a simple world cup qualifier at home. Its still a lame excuse because the association has never claimed that it is constrained by funds to execute this particular program. Seems to me you are the one inventing this excuse for them!

LOL, you are very good at accusing people of doing things when you are having a conversation. Yet you will be the first one who will cry that someone is getting attacked personally. If you want to go there, i will gladly do so.

You tell me when the NFF ever EVER been asked to monitor all U-13 players in academies in the country (in addition to the U-13 players that the NFF camps quarterly)? How can the NFF "never claim to be constrained by funds" when this unrealistic proposal has never been presented to them because no one with half a brain will be daft enough to think up such a ridiculous notion. If it has been, please present evidence of any record of anyone doing so and i will humbly chop my pie and apologize to you.

Do you know for certain that the players invited by the NFF to its quarterly u-13/15 camp drawn from the Unity cup tournament are not affiliated with any academies?

On one hand you claim the NFF invites players from the academies, on the other you claim paucity of funds as a constraint to monitoring academy players! Which one is it?

Nobody has suggested monitoring all academy players. The same way the NFF screens U-13 players in the various zones, is the same way it can screen academy players, but at 13 not at 17!

We know the composition of the U-13 team that comprised the likes of Chidera.

We also know that the majority of the academy players drawn from outside of the program joined the team at the terminal stage of the process.

[txj]

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

I was expecting you to ask....Why are all the Brazilians U17 players playing in first Division League in their country...?.. Try again..!

Because those Div 1 sides have youth teams!

[Igugu]

X

[Igugu]

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

So, Makounjuola now in Chelsea youth squad must be in Secondary School too. Which school does he attend, St. Chelsea Secondary School, England? Most of these children attend or just wrote their final papers in their Academy where they attend or attended classes; just because the Grammar did not spell their schools as "Secondary" now it gives much reason to be doubtful of their ages? My goodness. Where did these people come from? Critical Thinking was not a part of the curriculum in their journalism classes they took, it seems.

[txj]

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

So, Makounjuola now in Chelsea youth squad must be in Secondary School too. Which school does he attend, St. Chelsea Secondary School, England? Most of these children attend or just wrote their final papers in their Academy where they attend or attended classes; just because the Grammar did not spell their schools as "Secondary" now it gives much reason to be doubtful of their ages? My goodness. Where did these people come from? Critical Thinking was not a part of the curriculum in their journalism classes they took, it seems.

How many Nigerian academies have schools for their wards to attend? Have you ever been to any one of them?

[Enugu II]

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

Did other countries list their players as being in secondary schools?

The player is affiliated with an academy and that's the affiliation shown in official documents. How difficult is that to grasp?

KPOM. It is ridiculous to expect ONLY Nigeria to list the school of the players whereas no other country is required to do this. I bet other non-Nigerian U-17 players also attend school but none of those schools have been listed. That, IMHO, is a poor argument on the issue of age cheating. Nigerian journalists should taken on the task of unearthing the schools of those players as those schools are certainly not required to be listed.

It's not a poor argument, rather something we should ponder on. Whatever other countries do or don't do should not preclude us from making our age group players age cheat proof. After all, when we were using clearly overaged players, many of these other countries were not saying cos Naija was breaking the rules then they have to do same too.

We must continue to strive and be forward looking until we be sure that records taken years earlier on paper will form the basis of selecting players. I keep asking that if the MRI scan hadn't been done t some time, we would have fielded overaged players players so it cannot be ruled out that NFF intended to use overaged players. Added to this is the fear of being disgraced by FIFA's MRI was another motivation but how about if just doing the right thing was the motivation?

I will just sleep on this with one eye closed until genuine paper records like NPC birth certificates, school records plus ancillary data can basically form the reason a player is under 16. After all, the countries you said their players schools were not stated must have used genuine birth certs to a large extents rather than depending solely on MRI.

anointed,

I believe most Nigerians sincerely want the cheating to stop. Note that prior to the introduction of MRI, most of us believed that restricting invitation to only those in secondary school will help. This is in spite of the fact that we were aware that doing so will not be foolproof. Not only could some of the school boys be older than 17, it is a task to affirm that they are even students! For instance, as far back as the early 1960s, the Academicals' Cup was already rife with cheating! In one instance, Govt College Ibadan (?) and Zixton's Ozubulu played a final game with players who were suspected not be students at all! However, the belief is using school boys will reduce cheating.

In any case, FIFA introduced the MRI test which has been determined to be 99% accurate. Thus, instead of relying on players providing 'birth certificates' (We know what happens with passports!) or relying on schools affirming who is a student or not, we have a machine that has a far more reliable measure of age. Thus, the very idea that we should continue to push the envelope until e cure this age cheating is far more reachable with MRI than any of the other issues like checking birth certificates or determine school, etc. That is the point. What I do not understand is exactly the reason for calling for secondary schools attended by the boys. Does that rove that they are U-17? Is it a better test of age than the MRI test? What exactly will the school information do that the MRI test does not do BETTER at this time? Please it is important to know answers to the above questions. I have put them before txj and he has continued to avoid answering them. Can you answer them?

As for telling us whether a player is in secondary school or not. IMHO, that is not the NFF's business. NFF does exactly what FIFA requires and what its counterparts do and that does not include listing the secondary school of the players. Note that even listing these schools do less (compared with MRI) in predicting the players age. If Nigerians are interested in the secondary schools, for whatever it is now worth, let the media investigate that. It really should be simple for the media to do.

[metalalloy]

On one hand you claim the NFF invites players from the academies, on the other you claim paucity of funds as a constraint to monitoring academy players! Which one is it?First of all, I didn't claim NFF invites players from the academies, I asked a question as to how sure you are that the NFF does not invite players who are affiliated with the academy to the NFF camp. The players picked to the NFF camp from the Unity cup represented various states. it is feasible that some of them were also affiliated with academies.

Meanwhile, the National U-13/U-15 team coach Danladi Nasidi says he has picked 56 player from the just concluded 2012 National U-13 Youth Championship in Abuja.

He said the selected players will be called to the National U-13 & U-15 team camp by early next year.

"First I must confess that I'm very pleased with what I've seen here tonight, and from here I've been able to pick 12 U-15 players and 44 U-13 player to make a total of 56 that will have the opportunity to come fight for shirts when our camp opens in January. " Danladi said.

Eight state teams, Sokoto, Edo, Kaduna, Imo, FCT, Ogun, Niger and Ekiti participated at the games

http://allafrica.com/stories/201212230068.html

Nobody has suggested monitoring all academy players. The same way the NFF screens U-13 players in the various zones, is the same way it can screen academy players, but at 13 not at 17! Ok so you used the word "engage" in a previous thread. I asked you then and you didn't respond, what is the level of "engagement" that the NFF should be doing to all of the players in the academies? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=241590&hilit=monito ... F&start=46


We know the composition of the U-13 team that comprised the likes of Chidera.

We also know that the majority of the academy players drawn from outside of the program joined the team at the terminal stage of the process. Yes we do. However i gave a possible reason why the NFF had to cast its net wide and turn to academies in order to find players after some u-17 players failed MRI. This is a quote from Coach Manu after some eaglets failed MRI's

"But imagine a scenario whereby a player who was on Grade 4 in April has grown to grade 6 in July but what can we do than to call on other players from our reservoir. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23760844

Upon further research, here is another report that confirms my initial suspicion as to why a majority of the players ended up being from academies.

“It is very unfortunate that we have to start all over to pick replacement for those that failed the test. There is room for a second test but we don’t want to take chances especially as we have less than one month to submit preliminary list for the world cup.

Our source disclosed that only 19 players scaled the hurdle, a development that has sent jitters down the spines of both the Federation and the coaching crew which must now return to the secondary schools and academies to raise players before the November date of the world championship.

http://dailyindependentnig.com/2013/08/ ... -mri-test/

[1bakana]

How would it be explained that not even one of the entire current squad of players between the ages of 14 and 17 was listed as being in any secondary school?

Interesting

If dem list secondary school u go talk I'm no count since no be Achimota!! Ewu Gold Coast .