Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by Damunk »

fajex wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:38 pm
...for a guy that shoot dead ball like that why is he not invited to the SE?
There might be other things he doesn’t have in order to be the complete player, but even if he did, you also know uncle Rohr and his assistants were not sold on the local league
Definitely.
Does anyone remember Habib Makanjuola from the u17 Iheanacho class of 2013?
Makanjuola was actually the youngest player in the tournament at 14.

He had been snatched up by Chelsea for his formidable ball-juggling skills as a kid, maybe 12, 13 years old from Naija.
The rest is history.
He has struggled to establish himself in the full adult game, going from one club to another.
I’m not sure where he is now.

Regarding youth prodigies, there was the Adekanye kid that Barcelona wanted to die over.
Again, I’m not sure what happened to him but he should be roughly same age as Ndidi dem.
Also Arsenal’s ‘wonder kid’ Chuks Aneke, now a journeyman.

The game is unforgiving.
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 4) years Later

Post by txj »

Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:31 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:23 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:04 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:30 am
Lolly wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:21 am
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:39 am Must be hard for players like Chidera Ezeh, Musa Yahaya, Alampasu, Akinjide etc to see the progress of their teammates and juniors like Ndidi, Nacho, Awoniyi, Isaac Success, Uzoho, Osimhen and Chukwueze while their careers don’t really seem to be going anywhere.
That’s life sha.
The pattern is repeated across al footballing nations. Only a few of their youth stars develop to become top notch footballers. The rest end up in lower division clubs for the most part of their careers. Some quit football before their 20s.
Very true.


Its actually not true.

Yes there is a lot of slippages in youth football, but the ones that make the elite categories often have a high success rate..
Which part is not true?
That only a few youth stars develop into top footballers?


Is that the measure of success; that they develop into top footballers?
And who is a top footballer? NT players, premier league, Barcelona, etc

the problem with the Nigerian case is that when the elite footballers do not break through, they get lost to football pretty much. That's often not the case in Europe and S. America, who have and retain a high level domestic game that such players can fall back on..

That's why this kind of comparison with others misses the point badly...

Many of these countries we are comparing ourselves to have a well developed system for developing young players and are not reliant on the FIFA youth tournaments at all, which is not the case with Nigeria...
So it seems we are not exactly on the same page here.

What I was referring to specifically was the elite youth footballers that make it to tournaments like the U17 World Cup.
A study of those players specifically is likely to reveal that a surprisingly small percentage make it to the full adult game’s ‘elite’ level equivalent of what they once were at the youth level. That could be national teams or top leagues and clubs.

In addition, it is not strictly about Nigerian players. The study I started (but wasn’t able to complete due to time factors) was a worldwide one using FIFA databases. It is still something I’d consider completing because I haven’t really seen such a comprehensive study done anywhere.

That’s my point. :D
I did, but did not complete a study of the last four teams in the U17 tournament in 2013(?)- wt Chrisantus and when you expand the scope it will reveal that a significant number do not make the grade as in elite divisions. But unlike the Nigeria case in two areas.

First, cus of the priority we place on this, these are often our best talent. Not always, but quite close.
Second, unlike in Europe and S. America, there are structures for these players to continue in the game where ours are 'lost' to our football...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 4) years Later

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:56 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:31 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:23 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:04 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:30 am
Lolly wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:21 am

The pattern is repeated across al footballing nations. Only a few of their youth stars develop to become top notch footballers. The rest end up in lower division clubs for the most part of their careers. Some quit football before their 20s.
Very true.


Its actually not true.

Yes there is a lot of slippages in youth football, but the ones that make the elite categories often have a high success rate..
Which part is not true?
That only a few youth stars develop into top footballers?


Is that the measure of success; that they develop into top footballers?
And who is a top footballer? NT players, premier league, Barcelona, etc

the problem with the Nigerian case is that when the elite footballers do not break through, they get lost to football pretty much. That's often not the case in Europe and S. America, who have and retain a high level domestic game that such players can fall back on..

That's why this kind of comparison with others misses the point badly...

Many of these countries we are comparing ourselves to have a well developed system for developing young players and are not reliant on the FIFA youth tournaments at all, which is not the case with Nigeria...
So it seems we are not exactly on the same page here.

What I was referring to specifically was the elite youth footballers that make it to tournaments like the U17 World Cup.
A study of those players specifically is likely to reveal that a surprisingly small percentage make it to the full adult game’s ‘elite’ level equivalent of what they once were at the youth level. That could be national teams or top leagues and clubs.

In addition, it is not strictly about Nigerian players. The study I started (but wasn’t able to complete due to time factors) was a worldwide one using FIFA databases. It is still something I’d consider completing because I haven’t really seen such a comprehensive study done anywhere.

That’s my point. :D
I did, but did not complete a study of the last four teams in the U17 tournament in 2013(?)- wt Chrisantus and when you expand the scope it will reveal that a significant number do not make the grade as in elite divisions. But unlike the Nigeria case in two areas.

First, cus of the priority we place on this, these are often our best talent. Not always, but quite close.
Second, unlike in Europe and S. America, there are structures for these players to continue in the game where ours are 'lost' to our football...
Txj

Not likely. It will be interesting for us to have access to your study..

The players in our study were the best of their age group. How do you suppose that the same great structures in Europe and South America did not prevent them from falling by the way side but still afforded their colleagues who were not as good at u17 level to do better. Can you explain how that occurs?

Txj, also note that statistically it should be expected that a large number of players developed at academy level will never make the grade any where in that country simply because the number of available spaces thins out as you move up. Note that there are scores of thousands training in academies today, where do you think many of those will end up? At major clubs playing professionaly? No sir. Simply there are not even enough spaces for them and that is not even calculating competition against foreign talents. Thus, it will be surprising to learn that your study finds otherwise.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 4) years Later

Post by txj »

Enugu II wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:43 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:56 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:31 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:23 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:04 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:30 am Very true.


Its actually not true.

Yes there is a lot of slippages in youth football, but the ones that make the elite categories often have a high success rate..
Which part is not true?
That only a few youth stars develop into top footballers?


Is that the measure of success; that they develop into top footballers?
And who is a top footballer? NT players, premier league, Barcelona, etc

the problem with the Nigerian case is that when the elite footballers do not break through, they get lost to football pretty much. That's often not the case in Europe and S. America, who have and retain a high level domestic game that such players can fall back on..

That's why this kind of comparison with others misses the point badly...

Many of these countries we are comparing ourselves to have a well developed system for developing young players and are not reliant on the FIFA youth tournaments at all, which is not the case with Nigeria...
So it seems we are not exactly on the same page here.

What I was referring to specifically was the elite youth footballers that make it to tournaments like the U17 World Cup.
A study of those players specifically is likely to reveal that a surprisingly small percentage make it to the full adult game’s ‘elite’ level equivalent of what they once were at the youth level. That could be national teams or top leagues and clubs.

In addition, it is not strictly about Nigerian players. The study I started (but wasn’t able to complete due to time factors) was a worldwide one using FIFA databases. It is still something I’d consider completing because I haven’t really seen such a comprehensive study done anywhere.

That’s my point. :D
I did, but did not complete a study of the last four teams in the U17 tournament in 2013(?)- wt Chrisantus and when you expand the scope it will reveal that a significant number do not make the grade as in elite divisions. But unlike the Nigeria case in two areas.

First, cus of the priority we place on this, these are often our best talent. Not always, but quite close.
Second, unlike in Europe and S. America, there are structures for these players to continue in the game where ours are 'lost' to our football...
Txj

Not likely. It will be interesting for us to have access to your study..

The players in our study were the best of their age group. How do you suppose that the same great structures in Europe and South America did not prevent them from falling by the way side but still afforded their colleagues who were not as good at u17 level to do better. Can you explain how that occurs?


Don't think u are following my point.

The teams from Europe esp are not always the best in their age group. This is cus it depends on the priority countries place on the FIFA tournaments. England for eg has always prioritized their academy pathways. Changed a few yrs ago but has promptly gone back...

But either way significant turnovers exist in youth football regardless. Nobody who follows youth football will argue with you otherwise.

The distinction is often in the degree- as in who is being lost, and the yardsticks used for measurement. That's my point.

If you expand the yardstick to include club football and level of club football, it exposes that a lopsided number of our elite talent are getting lost to football, because unlike their euro counterparts, their is no serious domestic football base to fall back on...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by txj »

The teams from Europe esp are not always the best in their age group. This is cus it depends on the priority countries place on the FIFA tournaments. England for eg has always prioritized their academy pathways. Changed a few yrs ago but has promptly gone back...

What do I mean by this?

Using England as an example: the priority of elite youth development is the pathway that leads a Liverpool academy player for instance like Trent Alexander Arnold to the first team. You can add several clubs to this: Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Juve, Atlanta, Ajax....

Contrast this with the Nigerian situation and the elite youth footballer.

He's most likely in one of the so-called academies.
The priority for the Nigerian academy is the U17 pathway and FIFA U17, because that's the most secure pathway to a contract in Europe.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:22 pm
The teams from Europe esp are not always the best in their age group. This is cus it depends on the priority countries place on the FIFA tournaments. England for eg has always prioritized their academy pathways. Changed a few yrs ago but has promptly gone back...

What do I mean by this?

Using England as an example: the priority of elite youth development is the pathway that leads a Liverpool academy player for instance like Trent Alexander Arnold to the first team. You can add several clubs to this: Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Juve, Atlanta, Ajax....

Contrast this with the Nigerian situation and the elite youth footballer.

He's most likely in one of the so-called academies.
The priority for the Nigerian academy is the U17 pathway and FIFA U17, because that's the most secure pathway to a contract in Europe.
Txj

In terms of pathways, I agree somewhat. But do not forget that Nigeria’s U17 is actually not the only pathway for players in Nigerian academies. If you take a look at CIES annual Dara, Nigeria is the leading African nation sending players overseas (primarily Europe). Most of these players come from the academies an majority if them do not go via the junior national teams.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:22 pm
The teams from Europe esp are not always the best in their age group. This is cus it depends on the priority countries place on the FIFA tournaments. England for eg has always prioritized their academy pathways. Changed a few yrs ago but has promptly gone back...

What do I mean by this?

Using England as an example: the priority of elite youth development is the pathway that leads a Liverpool academy player for instance like Trent Alexander Arnold to the first team. You can add several clubs to this: Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Juve, Atlanta, Ajax....

Contrast this with the Nigerian situation and the elite youth footballer.

He's most likely in one of the so-called academies.
The priority for the Nigerian academy is the U17 pathway and FIFA U17, because that's the most secure pathway to a contract in Europe.
Txj

In terms of pathways, I agree somewhat. But do not forget that Nigeria’s U17 is actually not the only pathway for players in Nigerian academies. If you take a look at CIES annual Dara, Nigeria is the leading African nation sending players overseas (primarily Europe). Most of these players come from the academies an majority if them do not go via the junior national teams.

Note also that those are usually the cream of the talent. Majority end up not progressing to such a level and pursue other vocations.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by txj »

Enugu II wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:53 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:22 pm
The teams from Europe esp are not always the best in their age group. This is cus it depends on the priority countries place on the FIFA tournaments. England for eg has always prioritized their academy pathways. Changed a few yrs ago but has promptly gone back...

What do I mean by this?

Using England as an example: the priority of elite youth development is the pathway that leads a Liverpool academy player for instance like Trent Alexander Arnold to the first team. You can add several clubs to this: Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Juve, Atlanta, Ajax....

Contrast this with the Nigerian situation and the elite youth footballer.

He's most likely in one of the so-called academies.
The priority for the Nigerian academy is the U17 pathway and FIFA U17, because that's the most secure pathway to a contract in Europe.
Txj

In terms of pathways, I agree somewhat. But do not forget that Nigeria’s U17 is actually not the only pathway for players in Nigerian academies. If you take a look at CIES annual Dara, Nigeria is the leading African nation sending players overseas (primarily Europe). Most of these players come from the academies an majority if them do not go via the junior national teams.


I am well aware of that, but that actually reinforces my point.
Far too many of them are lost to football. Many times not even rising up to the radar for anyone to notice...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Enugu II wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:53 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:22 pm
The teams from Europe esp are not always the best in their age group. This is cus it depends on the priority countries place on the FIFA tournaments. England for eg has always prioritized their academy pathways. Changed a few yrs ago but has promptly gone back...

What do I mean by this?

Using England as an example: the priority of elite youth development is the pathway that leads a Liverpool academy player for instance like Trent Alexander Arnold to the first team. You can add several clubs to this: Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Juve, Atlanta, Ajax....

Contrast this with the Nigerian situation and the elite youth footballer.

He's most likely in one of the so-called academies.
The priority for the Nigerian academy is the U17 pathway and FIFA U17, because that's the most secure pathway to a contract in Europe.
Txj

In terms of pathways, I agree somewhat. But do not forget that Nigeria’s U17 is actually not the only pathway for players in Nigerian academies. If you take a look at CIES annual Dara, Nigeria is the leading African nation sending players overseas (primarily Europe). Most of these players come from the academies an majority if them do not go via the junior national teams.


I am well aware of that, but that actually reinforces my point.
Far too many of them are lost to football. Many times not even rising up to the radar for anyone to notice...
Far too many do not make the grade is an issue that is well known but it applies everywhere including in England and Europe. As I point to you, our study of the national junior teams alone, also support that. The point is to note that there are no exceptions anywhere, including in Europe.

However, to be clear, this phenomenon is not restricted to association football. It occurs in basketball and American football. Logic alone alludes to the fact that as one goes up the ladder the number of places become limited which means that many trained at the lower levels (academies)( never make the grade. Based on statistical reasoning alone.

To me, the surprise of it all is our results in the study of the cream of the talent i.e. the junior national teams. What I have not been able to explain even today is the anomaly found in the Costa Rica data. With Brazil, it could be explained by the fact that they export so many talent and the perception of their talent may also be of help.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by txj »

Enugu II wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:08 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Enugu II wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:53 pm
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:22 pm
The teams from Europe esp are not always the best in their age group. This is cus it depends on the priority countries place on the FIFA tournaments. England for eg has always prioritized their academy pathways. Changed a few yrs ago but has promptly gone back...

What do I mean by this?

Using England as an example: the priority of elite youth development is the pathway that leads a Liverpool academy player for instance like Trent Alexander Arnold to the first team. You can add several clubs to this: Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Juve, Atlanta, Ajax....

Contrast this with the Nigerian situation and the elite youth footballer.

He's most likely in one of the so-called academies.
The priority for the Nigerian academy is the U17 pathway and FIFA U17, because that's the most secure pathway to a contract in Europe.
Txj

In terms of pathways, I agree somewhat. But do not forget that Nigeria’s U17 is actually not the only pathway for players in Nigerian academies. If you take a look at CIES annual Dara, Nigeria is the leading African nation sending players overseas (primarily Europe). Most of these players come from the academies an majority if them do not go via the junior national teams.


I am well aware of that, but that actually reinforces my point.
Far too many of them are lost to football. Many times not even rising up to the radar for anyone to notice...
Far too many do not make the grade is an issue that is well known but it applies everywhere including in England and Europe. As I point to you, our study of the national junior teams alone, also support that. The point is to note that there are no exceptions anywhere, including in Europe.

However, to be clear, this phenomenon is not restricted to association football. It occurs in basketball and American football. Logic alone alludes to the fact that as one goes up the ladder the number of places become limited which means that many trained at the lower levels (academies)( never make the grade. Based on statistical reasoning alone.

To me, the surprise of it all is our results in the study of the cream of the talent i.e. the junior national teams. What I have not been able to explain even today is the anomaly found in the Costa Rica data. With Brazil, it could be explained by the fact that they export so many talent and the perception of their talent may also be of help.


For me, its not necessarily how many you lose, cus that is inevitable. Its who you lose.

Think back to our first U17 team for instance. most of them were lost entirely to football...

80% of the job of the NFF should be on the domestic game, yet all they do is run around the SE cus that's where the govt m
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by Sunset »

Simply put!! :clap: :clap: :clap: it's something that has held us back wrt to our exports especially this past decade. For four months 500+ top division players have been practically inactive for this period for the 2nd year in a row now & those in charge are yet to get to Bottom of it.

A simple youth league is one of the bare minimum requirements that would at least improve the situation
txj wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:22 pm For me, its not necessarily how many you lose, cus that is inevitable. Its who you lose.

Think back to our first U17 team for instance. most of them were lost entirely to football...

80% of the job of the NFF should be on the domestic game, yet all they do is run around the SE cus that's where the govt m
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by Sunset »

Saviour Godwin -

Was a bit part Player for the team during the U17's; after the Tournament he joined NNL side Plateau United on loan for a season, wasn't part of Manu Garba's AYC, but became a crucial player in Siasia's U23's in qualifying, which led to Manu calling him into the WYC team where he managed 2 goals and 1 assist. Following the tournament he was signed by Belgian club KV Oostende where he actually scored on his debut, has only made two appearances for them so far in the season.
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by Sunset »

Sunset wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:12 pm
Saviour Godwin -

Was a bit part Player for the team during the U17's; after the Tournament he joined NNL side Plateau United on loan for a season, wasn't part of Manu Garba's AYC, but became a crucial player in Siasia's U23's in qualifying, which led to Manu calling him into the WYC team where he managed 2 goals and 1 assist. Following the tournament he was signed by Belgian club KV Oostende where he actually scored on his debut, has only made two appearances for them so far in the season.
[tweet][/tweet]
Image
Really happy for him getting this maiden call-up as in this set there were players more talented than him but he simply worked harder to take his game to the next level :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Update: 2013 Golden Eaglets 2 (Now 8) years Later

Post by txj »

Very happy for the man.

But truly sad for our football.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp

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