Cybereagles

I think one of the things that is slowly killing football viewership is defensive football. Yes, some fans who have made a habit of tactical analysis might enjoy it but as a mass market product, I think defensive football is alienating fans. These days, there are many competing entertainment options for the average person. It’s not at all like before.

Let’s take the Nigeria - CAR series. In my opinion, Football authorities have to find ways to penalize teams like CAR for playing the way they do. I think the entire football world would benefit from more open/free flowing games. CAR had every incentive to park 10 men behind the ball and get Nigeria on the counter. There literally was no incentive to do anything different.That was indeed the only way they could compete with Nigeria [and they almost pulled it off]. But what is good for CAR sucks for everyone else.

Basketball’s answer to this problem is the shot clock. You have a specific time to make an attempt at goal. And if you don’t, you lose possession. I know this sounds like sacrilege to many football purists but it’s one idea out of many that could be implemented. In American Football, the NFL has methodically made the game more Quarterback friendly (and thus more offensive) over the past 30 years. Purists kick and scream with every rule change and Defensive players pout…but the truth is it’s better for the game that way.

I think defensive football is a very stealthy problem eating at Football’s marketability. These days, if Nigeria isn’t playing, I find it difficult to get through a game. The last Euros for instance were akin to me pulling teeth. It just seemed like every other game I watched was a defensive standoff

What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

That's how I play in FIFA to shock people who think they can play.

The thing for me is that if you have to learn the art of defending, then make it look beautiful to watch, don't make it look ugly and boring... the Italians gave us catannacio, and in that we saw how defending itself could be an art of absolute panache and beauty if done in the right way, form and system.

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

So there are other ways to ensure parity in sport than affecting the end product. Mass marketing has to be viable for the average person and not just niche group members like yourself.

You now have a Burnley that has worse players, a worse coach, a worse management, worse everything - able to hold Man City to a stalemate. The only people who want that are Burnley fans…and it’s not because they enjoy it.

If Nigeria were to be playing Argentina, are you honestly saying you would like us to play 1-9-1 just cause we fear Messi?

deanotito

What is it with you and mass marketing? This is the second time you have introduced this theme into a topic. Are you taking a Mass Marketing course or sometin? Abeg take time o!

Scipio Africanus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:45 pm deanotito

What is it with you and mass marketing? This is the second time you have introduced this theme into a topic. Are you taking a Mass Marketing course or sometin? Abeg take time o!

I don’t remember the first. I’m not though. I just spend a lot of time thinking about business and end markets. And here’s a sport that I love but gradually losing interest in.

There was something that struck me this past season when the biggest European clubs tried to split away. I believe it was the Juve chairman that said soccer is rapidly losing viewers. Their answer was to chop off the top and hence increase the quality of the league (their new league). I think the solution is more fundamental and less selfish than what they did

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

Tell me, how many average soccer fans can tell you what Catanacio is. Every year, we give awards to World/European/African players of the year. How many of these awards have gone to defensive players?? Don’t deceive yasef my brother, goals are what sell. Offensive football is what sells. The average person doesn’t pay PPV fees to watch defensive stalemates

deanotito wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:52 pm

Scipio Africanus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:45 pm deanotito

What is it with you and mass marketing? This is the second time you have introduced this theme into a topic. Are you taking a Mass Marketing course or sometin? Abeg take time o!

I don’t remember the first. I’m not though. I just spend a lot of time thinking about business and end markets. And here’s a sport that I love but gradually losing interest in.

There was something that struck me this past season when the biggest European clubs tried to split away. I believe it was the Juve chairman that said soccer is rapidly losing viewers. Their answer was to chop off the top and hence increase the quality of the league (their new league). I think the solution is more fundamental and less selfish than what they did

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=305995&start=23

deanotito wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:09 am Mass market appeal is not about forcing consumers to “explore” out of the way features. It’s about making the best of this forum available to most of the “market”. CE spent decades in the old format and grew that way…but all of a sudden, you guys wanted to make it scientifically clinical? Una do well

I don catch you. I hope you're getting a discount on the course!

Scipio Africanus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:00 pm

deanotito wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:52 pm

Scipio Africanus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:45 pm deanotito

What is it with you and mass marketing? This is the second time you have introduced this theme into a topic. Are you taking a Mass Marketing course or sometin? Abeg take time o!

I don’t remember the first. I’m not though. I just spend a lot of time thinking about business and end markets. And here’s a sport that I love but gradually losing interest in.

There was something that struck me this past season when the biggest European clubs tried to split away. I believe it was the Juve chairman that said soccer is rapidly losing viewers. Their answer was to chop off the top and hence increase the quality of the league (their new league). I think the solution is more fundamental and less selfish than what they did

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=305995&start=23

deanotito wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:09 am Mass market appeal is not about forcing consumers to “explore” out of the way features. It’s about making the best of this forum available to most of the “market”. CE spent decades in the old format and grew that way…but all of a sudden, you guys wanted to make it scientifically clinical? Una do well

I don catch you. I hope you're getting a discount on the course!

Ahh, na true sha

deanotito wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:52 pm

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

Tell me, how many average soccer fans can tell you what Catanacio is. Every year, we give awards to World/European/African players of the year. How many of these awards have gone to defensive players?? Don’t deceive yasef my brother, goals are what sell. Offensive football is what sells. The average person doesn’t pay PPV fees to watch defensive stalemates

You might be right but trying to phase out defensive games is not the way to go. There're only so many top players that can play at the highest level and they go to the highest bidder. A salary cap that allows smaller teams to be able to afford the best players is a better solution. The nba has a salary cap for every team as well as a shot clock.

When you have a $1B team playing over half its league fixtures against teams that have no where near the value of players you're bound to get lopsided results and an emphasis on defending by smaller teams. The same teams that pack the bus vs the mega teams do not do so against teams at their level, thats why the relegation battles are just as exciting as the race to win.

When Norwich meets Burnley its faya for faya.

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:50 pm

deanotito wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:52 pm

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

Tell me, how many average soccer fans can tell you what Catanacio is. Every year, we give awards to World/European/African players of the year. How many of these awards have gone to defensive players?? Don’t deceive yasef my brother, goals are what sell. Offensive football is what sells. The average person doesn’t pay PPV fees to watch defensive stalemates

You might be right but trying to phase out defensive games is not the way to go. There're only so many top players that can play at the highest level and they go to the highest bidder. A salary cap that allows smaller teams to be able to afford the best players is a better solution. The nba has a salary cap for every team as well as a shot clock.

When you have a $1B team playing over half its league fixtures against teams that have no where near the value of players you're bound to get lopsided results and an emphasis on defending by smaller teams. The same teams that pack the bus vs the mega teams do not do so against teams at their level, thats why the relegation battles are just as exciting as the race to win.

When Norwich meets Burnley its faya for faya.

You see, defensive football is the most efficient way to play soccer. It would always be attractive to most of the soccer playing world as a result. Attacking play is risky but is also a better product. And I think it’s incumbent on the soccer leaders (FIFA, et al) to push the better product.

Let’s go back to Basketball. Imagine if basketball had no shot clock. How would it differ? I can bet you it would be lower scoring, it would be more possession based, lots of “sideways” passing, lots of wars of attrition….and far less fun. Seem familiar?

deanotito, I can understand your pain of having to watch a 'bus parking' tactical match, but your idea
about the Shot Clock went too far. Jose Maurinho not long ago applied the 'bus parking' tactic to the delight of
Chelsea fans, but it did not bring down the EPL. If Nigeria had taken opportunity of their chances, CAR will not
stay defensive and we will most likely not be having this discussion.

I recall when the USA was about to re-engage in the soccer game, that many pundits were talking about the low
scoring, and some even suggesting that the goal posts be widened to allow more scoring, with time-outs also
suggested, ...etc.

I believe the game rules are generally fine as it is, as soccer is a free flowing game needing no unnecessary distractions
from the action. From my observation, teams that primarily love parking the bus are simply killing their offensive drive
and most do not recover when compelled to resume attacking play. We all saw what happened to CAR once they conceded.
Cheers!!!

joao wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:22 am deanotito, I can understand your pain of having to watch a 'bus parking' tactical match, but your idea
about the Shot Clock went too far. Jose Maurinho not long ago applied the 'bus parking' tactic to the delight of
Chelsea fans, but it did not bring down the EPL. If Nigeria had taken opportunity of their chances, CAR will not
stay defensive and we will most likely not be having this discussion.

I recall when the USA was about to re-engage in the soccer game, that many pundits were talking about the low
scoring, and some even suggesting that the goal posts be widened to allow more scoring, with time-outs also
suggested, ...etc.

I believe the game rules are generally fine as it is, as soccer is a free flowing game needing no unnecessary distractions
from the action. From my observation, teams that primarily love parking the bus are simply killing their offensive drive
and most do not recover when compelled to resume attacking play. We all saw what happened to CAR once they conceded.
Cheers!!!

Ok, I want to make clear that I am not necessarily saying the shot clock is the answer. It’s simply an idea among many.

On changing rules, I used to think that way. But having seen that many rule changes in Football and American Football over the last 30 years didn’t bring down the game as feared, I think resistance to change is never good.

Can one go overboard with rule changes? Absolutely. But one can
also go “underboard”

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

I agree with Dean. First this is a major concern for those who manage football and has always been. More will need to be done in the future. The last World Cup saw rubbish with Russian tactics against Spain. It is absolute rubbish for those seeking to be entertained by football. Such a games are worth very little to fans. The good thing is that football authorities fully understand this and have worked to deal with the problem on an ongoing basis. Here are a few examples-- change in offside rules over the years to favor the offensive team, banning the backpack to the goalkeeper, strengthening the referee's control of adding minutes because of time wasting, among others.

Coming next may be banning offside any where outside the immediate goal area, among others.

Shot clock in football? Only if you want football to die a permanent death. When I first came to the US and discovered free substitution and timeouts in college football, I almost lost my fervor for football. Then I went to see a visiting all Nigerian Alabama A&M team play some teams in the Northeast… that’s when I fell in love with football all over again. Let’s leave well enough alone. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it


Cheers.

TonyTheTigerKiller wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:44 pm Shot clock in football? Only if you want football to die a permanent death. When I first came to the US and discovered free substitution in college football, I almost lost my fervor for football. Then I went to see a visiting all Nigerian Alabama A&M team play some teams in the Northeast… that’s when I fell in love with football all over again. Let’s leave well enough alone. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it


Cheers.

Honestly, a shot clock will not only quicken the pace but will bring excitement galore rather than the methodical play we see today. It is worth a try. To stay static is to die slowly.

Enugu II wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:27 pm

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

I agree with Dean. First this is a major concern for those who manage football and has always been. More will need to be done in the future. The last World Cup saw rubbish with Russian tactics against Spain. It is absolute rubbish for those seeking to be entertained by football. Such a games are worth very little to fans. The good thing is that football authorities fully understand this and have worked to deal with the problem on an ongoing basis. Here are a few examples-- change in offside rules over the years to favor the offensive team, banning the backpack to the goalkeeper, strengthening the referee's control of adding minutes because of time wasting, among others.

Coming next may be banning offside any where outside the immediate goal area, among others.

There are two ways of looking at this.

One is the idea that it is "rubbish Russian tactics".

Another is to "rubbish Spanish tactics" in terms of their inability to breakdown a low block...

In any case, soccer is already a continuously played game, and not subject to the start and stop nature of grid iron football...

txj wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:45 pm

Enugu II wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:27 pm

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

I agree with Dean. First this is a major concern for those who manage football and has always been. More will need to be done in the future. The last World Cup saw rubbish with Russian tactics against Spain. It is absolute rubbish for those seeking to be entertained by football. Such a games are worth very little to fans. The good thing is that football authorities fully understand this and have worked to deal with the problem on an ongoing basis. Here are a few examples-- change in offside rules over the years to favor the offensive team, banning the backpack to the goalkeeper, strengthening the referee's control of adding minutes because of time wasting, among others.

Coming next may be banning offside any where outside the immediate goal area, among others.

There are two ways of looking at this.

One is the idea that it is "rubbish Russian tactics".

Another is to "rubbish Spanish tactics" in terms of their inability to breakdown a low block...

In any case, soccer is already a continuously played game, and not subject to the start and stop nature of grid iron football...

I am not aware that NBA, with its clock, is subject to stop and start. In essence, stop and start play is not synonymous with a clock. Moreover, the current delay tactics somewhat is akin to stopping or at worst slowing the "continuous flow" that we may assume. The reality is that FIFA and the rule makers understand that the problem exist and that is actually why the injury time was included. The question is whether or not the injury time has been effective enough.

I think that Marco Van Basten’s suggestion is the best way forward.

He basically said that football should be played with continuous clock until 75th minute, and in the last 15 minutes play should be effective and not actual, with the clock being stopped for any injuries or if the ball is out of play.

Paveman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:42 pm I think that Marco Van Basten’s suggestion is the best way forward.

He basically said that football should be played with continuous clock until 75th minute, and in the last 15 minutes play should be effective and not actual, with the clock being stopped for any injuries or if the ball is out of play.

Many things need to be altered, if you ask me. One is that the offside is ancient and really not useful in terms of football as a spectacle. Why do the traps have to start at the half way line? In my view, if it is to be kept then the only place it should be allowed is inside the box.

Enugu II wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:45 pm

txj wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:45 pm

Enugu II wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:27 pm

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

I agree with Dean. First this is a major concern for those who manage football and has always been. More will need to be done in the future. The last World Cup saw rubbish with Russian tactics against Spain. It is absolute rubbish for those seeking to be entertained by football. Such a games are worth very little to fans. The good thing is that football authorities fully understand this and have worked to deal with the problem on an ongoing basis. Here are a few examples-- change in offside rules over the years to favor the offensive team, banning the backpack to the goalkeeper, strengthening the referee's control of adding minutes because of time wasting, among others.

Coming next may be banning offside any where outside the immediate goal area, among others.

There are two ways of looking at this.

One is the idea that it is "rubbish Russian tactics".

Another is to "rubbish Spanish tactics" in terms of their inability to breakdown a low block...

In any case, soccer is already a continuously played game, and not subject to the start and stop nature of grid iron football...

I am not aware that NBA, with its clock, is subject to stop and start. In essence, stop and start play is not synonymous with a clock. Moreover, the current delay tactics somewhat is akin to stopping or at worst slowing the "continuous flow" that we may assume. The reality is that FIFA and the rule makers understand that the problem exist and that is actually why the injury time was included. The question is whether or not the injury time has been effective enough.

First of all, the low block is a distinct and frankly unrelated issue to delay of game. IMPO, it offers a different kind of entertainment...

In play the NBA is end to end, but still subject to stop and start b/c of the timeout tool available to the coach/team. Not as pronounced as in the NFL, but it is there.

Not sure how one would apply the shot clock rule in soccer beyond stricter policing of existing rules on time wasting.

txj wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm

Enugu II wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:45 pm

txj wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:45 pm

Enugu II wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:27 pm

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!

I agree with Dean. First this is a major concern for those who manage football and has always been. More will need to be done in the future. The last World Cup saw rubbish with Russian tactics against Spain. It is absolute rubbish for those seeking to be entertained by football. Such a games are worth very little to fans. The good thing is that football authorities fully understand this and have worked to deal with the problem on an ongoing basis. Here are a few examples-- change in offside rules over the years to favor the offensive team, banning the backpack to the goalkeeper, strengthening the referee's control of adding minutes because of time wasting, among others.

Coming next may be banning offside any where outside the immediate goal area, among others.

There are two ways of looking at this.

One is the idea that it is "rubbish Russian tactics".

Another is to "rubbish Spanish tactics" in terms of their inability to breakdown a low block...

In any case, soccer is already a continuously played game, and not subject to the start and stop nature of grid iron football...

I am not aware that NBA, with its clock, is subject to stop and start. In essence, stop and start play is not synonymous with a clock. Moreover, the current delay tactics somewhat is akin to stopping or at worst slowing the "continuous flow" that we may assume. The reality is that FIFA and the rule makers understand that the problem exist and that is actually why the injury time was included. The question is whether or not the injury time has been effective enough.

First of all, the low block is a distinct and frankly unrelated issue to delay of game. IMPO, it offers a different kind of entertainment...

In play the NBA is end to end, but still subject to stop and start b/c of the timeout tool available to the coach/team. Not as pronounced as in the NFL, but it is there.

Not sure how one would apply the shot clock rule in soccer beyond stricter policing of existing rules on time wasting.

Txj

I do not know how it has been proposed if at all.

However, my guess is that you have to make an attempt at the opponents goal within a given time like 15 - 20 seconds. If you have sustained possession but fail to make an attempt then the ball turns over to the other team.