A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

Post by txj »

Enugu II wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:31 pm
txj wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm
Enugu II wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:45 pm
txj wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:45 pm
Enugu II wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:27 pm
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:49 am What?? Defensive football is natural response to big money and big nations dominance. If you take it away you'll pretty much kill football strategy and the will of players to fight. How else do you suggest Burnley compete vs Man City? Attack them?
Defensive football is an art and a joy to watch. Imho, the SE defeat to CAR is one of the best Defensive performances I've ever seen in African football, it was a joy to watch. Very negative approach!
I agree with Dean. First this is a major concern for those who manage football and has always been. More will need to be done in the future. The last World Cup saw rubbish with Russian tactics against Spain. It is absolute rubbish for those seeking to be entertained by football. Such a games are worth very little to fans. The good thing is that football authorities fully understand this and have worked to deal with the problem on an ongoing basis. Here are a few examples-- change in offside rules over the years to favor the offensive team, banning the backpack to the goalkeeper, strengthening the referee's control of adding minutes because of time wasting, among others.

Coming next may be banning offside any where outside the immediate goal area, among others.



There are two ways of looking at this.

One is the idea that it is "rubbish Russian tactics".

Another is to "rubbish Spanish tactics" in terms of their inability to breakdown a low block...

In any case, soccer is already a continuously played game, and not subject to the start and stop nature of grid iron football...
I am not aware that NBA, with its clock, is subject to stop and start. In essence, stop and start play is not synonymous with a clock. Moreover, the current delay tactics somewhat is akin to stopping or at worst slowing the "continuous flow" that we may assume. The reality is that FIFA and the rule makers understand that the problem exist and that is actually why the injury time was included. The question is whether or not the injury time has been effective enough.


First of all, the low block is a distinct and frankly unrelated issue to delay of game. IMPO, it offers a different kind of entertainment...

In play the NBA is end to end, but still subject to stop and start b/c of the timeout tool available to the coach/team. Not as pronounced as in the NFL, but it is there.

Not sure how one would apply the shot clock rule in soccer beyond stricter policing of existing rules on time wasting.
Txj

I do not know how it has been proposed if at all.

However, my guess is that you have to make an attempt at the opponents goal within a given time like 15 - 20 seconds. If you have sustained possession but fail to make an attempt then the ball turns over to the other team.



None of us has a crystal ball or can tell the future, but that idea will never fly in football.

Nt as long as every team has an equal chance to recover the ball...
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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Enugu, something you said got me thinking. Could we improve the game if we eliminated the offside rule??
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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deanotito wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:21 pm Enugu, something you said got me thinking. Could we improve the game if we eliminated the offside rule??
Dean

When next you go to a live game make notice of how much of the field is used in particular moments. You will notice a compact two lines of defense with action in between those lines which may just be about 30 yards apart. Tbat is largely the impact of the offside rule as those lines basically dictate the space used for actual play.

My view is that if this space is expanded by limiting the effect of the rule on playing space, there will be more exciting runs and closer positions to goal which in turn will generate more shots at goal.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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Enugu II wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:48 pm
deanotito wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:21 pm Enugu, something you said got me thinking. Could we improve the game if we eliminated the offside rule??
Dean

When next you go to a live game make notice of how much of the field is used in particular moments. You will notice a compact two lines of defense with action in between those lines which may just be about 30 yards apart. Tbat is largely the impact of the offside rule as those lines basically dictate the space used for actual play.

My view is that if this space is expanded by limiting the effect of the rule on playing space, there will be more exciting runs and closer positions to goal which in turn will generate more shots at goal.
Honestly, that’s a great idea
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
The clock is not designed for one team or the other. It is designed to benefit the spectators watching the game.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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deanotito wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:45 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches
but a team that parks the bus HAS NO POSSESSION, so they cannot be negatively effected by the shot clock. If anything the shot clock negatively effects the attacking team and not the team parking the bus.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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I understand the arguments in favour of a shot clock. But I think you underestimate the value and beauty of tactics. Even parking the bus has its beauty, when a team defends as a whole and closes all the spaces cohesively, especially when playing a much better team. Also, there is beauty in gradual and patient build up play which a shot clock will dilute. I for one am not a fan of end to end chicken football, but maybe because I grew up watching Serie A rather than the Premier League.

I leave pure entertainment to the cinema, the club or the concert hall. Football is not only entertainment, it is a sport, and it does not necessarily need to be pretty.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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vancity eagle wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:12 am
deanotito wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:45 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches
but a team that parks the bus HAS NO POSSESSION, so they cannot be negatively effected by the shot clock. If anything the shot clock negatively effects the attacking team and not the team parking the bus.
Vancity

Now, that is a good point. However, the idea is to create a spectacle for the paying fans. Most fans want to see more goals, shots at goal, saves, a spectacle. A shot clock will assure that. We cannot have the silliness of the last World Cup where Spain passed the ball round and round without any end product against Russia. Sitting in the stands you wish serious attempts at th re goal at the very least. That is what a shot clock will force.

More shots at goal theoretically will produce more goals, and errors, among others. That is what leads to spectator excitement. This is not about tactics and what analysts enjoy. This is about what over 80% of paying spectators will wish to see and saviur.

BTW, every rule change will beget new strategies and thus for those who I enjoy strategies those will never ever disappear but the primary goal of FIFA is to serve the greater number of the game's consumers.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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But a shot clock will not create more goals because it forces more shots.

What you will have will be more desperate shots from far out that will be nowhere near accurate.

If you think "killing birds" is more excitement then so be it. I do not

The shot clock actually REWARDS teams parking the bus, because they can defend deep, and when the clock is up the attacking team will lose possession or be forced to take awild shot from a poor position.

How on earth does this make football more exciting ? It doesn't
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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Shot clock in soccer? :lol: :lol: :lol:
I think it's same US spectators raving over a 'no hitter' baseball game that are grumbling over a low score soccer match.

Every game has its nuanced parts, and a zero-zero soccer game can be as entertaining as a 5-5 score. I want to believe
that the game of soccer cannot be likened to basketball, thus the score is not all that should matter, but team tactics and
how the opposition counter it as a team or by individual(s) creativity.

BTW, no 'bus packing' tactic has endured enough to dominate any league for more than one season.
The team usually gets found out and fizzle as fast as they emerge.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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deanotito wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:54 am I think one of the things that is slowly killing football viewership is defensive football. Yes, some fans who have made a habit of tactical analysis might enjoy it but as a mass market product, I think defensive football is alienating fans. These days, there are many competing entertainment options for the average person. It’s not at all like before.

Let’s take the Nigeria - CAR series. In my opinion, Football authorities have to find ways to penalize teams like CAR for playing the way they do. I think the entire football world would benefit from more open/free flowing games. CAR had every incentive to park 10 men behind the ball and get Nigeria on the counter. There literally was no incentive to do anything different.That was indeed the only way they could compete with Nigeria [and they almost pulled it off]. But what is good for CAR sucks for everyone else.

Basketball’s answer to this problem is the shot clock. You have a specific time to make an attempt at goal. And if you don’t, you lose possession. I know this sounds like sacrilege to many football purists but it’s one idea out of many that could be implemented. In American Football, the NFL has methodically made the game more Quarterback friendly (and thus more offensive) over the past 30 years. Purists kick and scream with every rule change and Defensive players pout…but the truth is it’s better for the game that way.

I think defensive football is a very stealthy problem eating at Football’s marketability. These days, if Nigeria isn’t playing, I find it difficult to get through a game. The last Euros for instance were akin to me pulling teeth. It just seemed like every other game I watched was a defensive standoff
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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deanotito wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:45 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches

On shot clock, you are definitely smoking that la la :lol:

But I agree with you 100% on offside. A while ago, I asked why offsides cannot be be canceled and no one could come up with a good argument on why it shouldn't be..

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=205231&hilit=offside&start=23
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

Post by deanotito »

Schillachi wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:42 pm
deanotito wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:45 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches

On shot clock, you are definitely smoking that la la :lol:

But I agree with you 100% on offside. A while ago, I asked why offsides cannot be be canceled and no one could come up with a good argument on why it shouldn't be..

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=205231&hilit=offside&start=23
Rules changes are always resisted. They mess with a sport as you know it. Football and Basketball are essentially the same game with similar rules. One suffers from chronic 0-0 and low scoring games. The other frequently gets to double and triple digits. There are structural reasons why. I am not necessarily proposing the shot clock. But it is an idea among many that can be implemented…and besides it doesn’t have to be implemented in the same exact way it is in Basketball…It can even be over 2 minutes in duration. There are all sorts of ways to implement changes if people agree that change is needed.

On offside, I actually think they should eliminate the offside rule for one of the upcoming U17 or U21 tourneys. See what happens
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

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deanotito wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:06 am
Schillachi wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:42 pm
deanotito wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:45 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches

On shot clock, you are definitely smoking that la la :lol:

But I agree with you 100% on offside. A while ago, I asked why offsides cannot be be canceled and no one could come up with a good argument on why it shouldn't be..

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=205231&hilit=offside&start=23
Rules changes are always resisted. They mess with a sport as you know it. Football and Basketball are essentially the same game with similar rules. One suffers from chronic 0-0 and low scoring games. The other frequently gets to double and triple digits. There are structural reasons why. I am not necessarily proposing the shot clock. But it is an idea among many that can be implemented…and besides it doesn’t have to be implemented in the same exact way it is in Basketball…It can even be over 2 minutes in duration. There are all sorts of ways to implement changes if people agree that change is needed.

On offside, I actually think they should eliminate the offside rule for one of the upcoming U17 or U21 tourneys. See what happens
Dean,

LOL. That is the fact. Sometimes resistance is simply based on we want it to remain the way it is. I remember how people resisted the ban on the back pass to the goalkeepers but yet what's up now? People felt the new offside ruler stopped offside strategies and was not good for football. So what's up now? Point is resistance may often be reflected by fear of change and nothing more What we should not be afraid of is to think and be able to dream of a better game that will increase excitement for the ordinary spectator like the 8 year girl learning the game and not about some 70 year old coach think about what he learned in a classroom with Trappatoni. LOL.
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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

Post by TonyTheTigerKiller »

Enugu II wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:30 am
deanotito wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:06 am
Schillachi wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:42 pm
deanotito wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:45 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches

On shot clock, you are definitely smoking that la la :lol:

But I agree with you 100% on offside. A while ago, I asked why offsides cannot be be canceled and no one could come up with a good argument on why it shouldn't be..

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=205231&hilit=offside&start=23
Rules changes are always resisted. They mess with a sport as you know it. Football and Basketball are essentially the same game with similar rules. One suffers from chronic 0-0 and low scoring games. The other frequently gets to double and triple digits. There are structural reasons why. I am not necessarily proposing the shot clock. But it is an idea among many that can be implemented…and besides it doesn’t have to be implemented in the same exact way it is in Basketball…It can even be over 2 minutes in duration. There are all sorts of ways to implement changes if people agree that change is needed.

On offside, I actually think they should eliminate the offside rule for one of the upcoming U17 or U21 tourneys. See what happens
Dean,

LOL. That is the fact. Sometimes resistance is simply based on we want it to remain the way it is. I remember how people resisted the ban on the back pass to the goalkeepers but yet what's up now? People felt the new offside ruler stopped offside strategies and was not good for football. So what's up now? Point is resistance may often be reflected by fear of change and nothing more What we should not be afraid of is to think and be able to dream of a better game that will increase excitement for the ordinary spectator like the 8 year girl learning the game and not about some 70 year old coach think about what he learned in a classroom with Trappatoni. LOL.
EII,

Changes which will have a positive impact are always welcome but change, just for the sake of change can be an unmitigated disaster. Let’s consider two of the proposed changes:

A. Shot clock

I am not quite certain how a shot clock rule will help deter a defensive mentality. If anything at all, it will enhance it, from where I stand; most teams stand to benefit from parking the bus in order to force a turnover.

B. Offside Rule

Like A above, elimination of the offside rule will only force teams to adapt to the possibility of an opposing player sneaking behind the defense by being even more defensive minded. Moreover, in my humble opinion, football will be a far more attractive sport if players are allowed to create goals using their skills and dexterity rather than if nore scoring opportunities are created by putting the defense at a disadvantage.

Under the present rules, I think the concept of a player behind the defense and not interfering with play is rather lame and laughable because a player behind the defense, under any circumstances, is always going to interfere with the keeper’s ability to focus on play. Consequently, I really think that the offside rule should be enforced without any frills, which would force attacks to be more creative❗️


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Re: A SHOT CLOCK IN FOOTBALL…?

Post by Enugu II »

TonyTheTigerKiller wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:43 pm
Enugu II wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:30 am
deanotito wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:06 am
Schillachi wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:42 pm
deanotito wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:45 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:26 pm Shot clock makes no sense because the team parking the bus does not usually have possession.
As Enugu said above, it’s not designed for one team over another. It’s designed for the fans. If you can lose possession at any point of the field when the clock runs out, you will optimize your possession towards going to score. That’s exactly how it has worked in basketball.

What soccer has incentivized is parking the bus. Why press when I can just play sideways, and then play a long ball when I’m under pressure?

Offside rule is another one. Why do we need it really? It obstructs free flow. Inherently, I even think it favors the less athletic teams (read: European teams) as it blunts the attacking impact of
speed and quickness to favor anticipation and control. So what does that lead to? Chess Matches

On shot clock, you are definitely smoking that la la :lol:

But I agree with you 100% on offside. A while ago, I asked why offsides cannot be be canceled and no one could come up with a good argument on why it shouldn't be..

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=205231&hilit=offside&start=23
Rules changes are always resisted. They mess with a sport as you know it. Football and Basketball are essentially the same game with similar rules. One suffers from chronic 0-0 and low scoring games. The other frequently gets to double and triple digits. There are structural reasons why. I am not necessarily proposing the shot clock. But it is an idea among many that can be implemented…and besides it doesn’t have to be implemented in the same exact way it is in Basketball…It can even be over 2 minutes in duration. There are all sorts of ways to implement changes if people agree that change is needed.

On offside, I actually think they should eliminate the offside rule for one of the upcoming U17 or U21 tourneys. See what happens
Dean,

LOL. That is the fact. Sometimes resistance is simply based on we want it to remain the way it is. I remember how people resisted the ban on the back pass to the goalkeepers but yet what's up now? People felt the new offside ruler stopped offside strategies and was not good for football. So what's up now? Point is resistance may often be reflected by fear of change and nothing more What we should not be afraid of is to think and be able to dream of a better game that will increase excitement for the ordinary spectator like the 8 year girl learning the game and not about some 70 year old coach think about what he learned in a classroom with Trappatoni. LOL.
EII,

Changes which will have a positive impact are always welcome but change, just for the sake of change can be an unmitigated disaster. Let’s consider two of the proposed changes:

A. Shot clock

I am not quite certain how a shot clock rule will help deter a defensive mentality. If anything at all, it will enhance it, from where I stand; most teams stand to benefit from parking the bus in order to force a turnover.
See basketball for a clear example. Note the difference when the tactics of 4 corners was used to clampdown on an attacking team and how the introduction of a clock ended all that!! More goals and goal opportunities is the simplest and more likely effect of a shot clock, given relative stable level of talent. First the clock assures that teams will move away from mere possession to taking a shot at goal before the clock expires. More shots lead to to more goal chances given better practices/strategizing at types of shots, where to to take them, who to take them, and errors by the defensive sides including the goalie. Statistically more goals shall occur. THAT IS A CERTAINTY.

B. Offside Rule

Like A above, elimination of the offside rule will only force teams to adapt to the possibility of an opposing player sneaking behind the defense by being even more defensive minded. Moreover, in my humble opinion, football will be a far more attractive sport if players are allowed to create goals using their skills and dexterity rather than if nore scoring opportunities are created by putting the defense at a disadvantage.
Not likely. Nothing can be more defensive than now? No offside or limiting offside zones will force defenses to defend further back than they now have to. To defend further back reduces the distance for a shot to get to the goal which means, statistically, a higher likelihood of scoring. Presently the offside trap means that an attacking team is more often forced to take a shot from long distances given the goalie a good chance of saving the shot

Under the present rules, I think the concept of a player behind the defense and not interfering with play is rather lame and laughable because a player behind the defense, under any circumstances, is always going to interfere with the keeper’s ability to focus on play. Consequently, I really think that the offside rule should be enforced without any frills, which would force attacks to be more creative❗️
I agree that the current rule of non-interference is tame. However, I would rather have that player deemed as active and with the ability to score as long as he is not in the 6-yard box (or reluctantly in the 18-yard box) rather than to enforce what you suggest.

Cheers.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics

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