Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

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Enugu II
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Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Enugu II »

In my view, it may be time to question if the NFF has the wherewithal to hire the right Manager for Nigeria? Here is Why I ask:

1. It seems Nigeria's goal is set low. I am shocked at fans increasingly accepting Gernot Rohr's performance as the bar for Nigerian Managers and some of this may be driven by the NFF hypoing his third place finish at the AFCON as the new bar. Also his finish in the opening round of the WC as something to celebrate. I wonder did Nigeria not previously win the AFCON? Did Nigeria not previously finish among the Top 16 at the WC and coming close to reaching the Top 8? What is NOW driving this low bar?

2. Gernot Rohr's record at point of hire was ridiculously poor. He had losing records in two African countries where he was manager and was hooked quickly because it was obvious he was taking them no where. In the third country, he barely had a winning record. In fact, his appearance redeemed him somewhat but recent results with Nigeria probably gravitated him to really what her has always been -- a below average manager. Why then was he hired?

3. If Nigeria must hire a foreign coach, why is it not possible to get a credible one? I ask. I refer to someone with a record that atleast offers hope and not hire somewhat simply because he is European as seemed the case with Rohr's hire. Rohr was the true definition of the journeyman coach when he was rescued by Nigeria. Beyond his first opportunity at Bordeaux and Nantes where he was given every opportunity to prove himself as a young coach, he was fired/left at every turn at his other jobs -- Creteil, Young Boys, Ajaccio, Etoile Sahel, and Nantes. He was European and in Africa he was offered chance after chance.
GERNOT ROHR: Pre-Nigeria National Team Managerial statistics

[G W D L Win %]
Gabon (21 February 2010 --- 5 February 2012) 19 --[8--5--6] 42.11%
Niger (5 September 2012 -- 21 October 2014) 23 --[3--7--13] 13.04%
Burkina Faso (25 February 2015 --- 22 December 2015) 11 --[3 --3 --5] 27.27%
4. The NFF must begin to act professionally in its hiring practices. This is not the days of the Colony where the fact that someone is White immediately classifies him as technically superior. The NFF must go beyond that mind-capture and free itself from that mentality. Hire someone for his demonstrated record and not simply based on the person's race. It is obvious Gernot Rohr was never hired based on his record. The record is there for all to see (check Wikipedia and examine his records at his prior three stints with three African teams where he was quickly jettisoned). The question is were there no better coaches (regardless of trace) who were available then and will be available now?

5. To make matters worse, was/is Gernot Rohr's race a factor in the current attempt to sell a third place finish at the AFCON as the height of what Nigeria can achieve? Never mind that Nigeria had actually won the AFCON with both Nigerian and foreign managers and had taken second and third place finishes several times prior.
Last edited by Enugu II on Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it time to ASK NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA »

Short answer is an emphatic NO. However, your perception of the problem being the right "GUY" is also wrong. There can't be a right guy without the right plan, this is why all recent SE coaches have all had the same problem. They perform well but eventually hit a wall of bad form and they get fired. This is why I've decided to ride or die with Rohr as I've daid with Keshi,Amodu and others. Even though Rohr has his issues, I have zero confidence in the ability of the NFF to do the right thing . All Rohr has to do is make adjustments, the NFF issues are pathological. It ain't gonna change.
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Re: Is it time to ASK NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Enugu II »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:50 pm Short answer is an emphatic NO. However, your perception of the problem being the right "GUY" is also wrong. There can't be a right guy without the right plan, this is why all recent SE coaches have all had the same problem. They perform well but eventually hit a wall of bad form and they get fired. This is why I've decided to ride or die with Rohr as I've daid with Keshi,Amodu and others. Even though Rohr has his issues, I have zero confidence in the ability of the NFF to do the right thing . All Rohr has to do is make adjustments, the NFF issues are pathological. It ain't gonna change.
Emir,

Certainly you have a point about the need to have a right plan. I do not disagree with that because it is a fundamental issue.

The point I raise here is being befuddled by the discovery after examining Rohr's record prior to his hire.

Then on another thread by Fabio that the NFF hired Rohr by focusing on the fact that he was an old guy who could handle the players. Christ have mercy! without any allusion to his record? That is just not a comforting way to make a hiring decision. I just hope that Pinnick was either misquoted or that he was not being entirely truthful.
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Re: Is it time to ASK NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA »

Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:59 pm
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:50 pm Short answer is an emphatic NO. However, your perception of the problem being the right "GUY" is also wrong. There can't be a right guy without the right plan, this is why all recent SE coaches have all had the same problem. They perform well but eventually hit a wall of bad form and they get fired. This is why I've decided to ride or die with Rohr as I've daid with Keshi,Amodu and others. Even though Rohr has his issues, I have zero confidence in the ability of the NFF to do the right thing . All Rohr has to do is make adjustments, the NFF issues are pathological. It ain't gonna change.
Emir,

Certainly you have a point about the need to have a right plan. I do not disagree with that because it is a fundamental issue.

The point I raise here is being befuddled by the discovery after examining Rohr's record prior to his hire.

Then on another thread by Fabio that the NFF hired Rohr by focusing on the fact that he was an old guy who could handle the players. Christ have mercy! without any allusion to his record? That is just not a comforting way to make a hiring decision. I just hope that Pinnick was either misquoted or that he was not being entirely truthful.

It's true.Pinnick was not misquoted, they were looking for stability at the time, both Keshi and Oliseh's reign were rather turbulent but it was still the wrong plan. How do you hire a coach without identifying your goals, pattern of play, infrastructure and come up with a realistic plan? What we're witnessing today isn't that our coach is bad or our players are not performing, it's the rest of Africa catching up to us even though our talent base has improved significantly. All of a sudden the coach sees that what used to work is no longer working, he panics and changes course but ultimately he too will pay the price until the next coach comes to do the same thing.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Tobi17 »

Pinnick and the NFF board need to be tried at the Hague for crimes against humanity, cause you can't tell me someone in that whole glass house didn't sit down to preen Rohrs mediocre coaching records and CV before giving the approval to hire him... that's just unpardonable especially now that the same idiots who hired are stuck in a cat-and-mouse circus with Rohr just to fire him. Meanwhile Egypt, Ghana and even smaller nations can easily fire their underperforming coaches without all this shameless drama... Nigeria is truly a big joke.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Tobi17 »

Tobi17 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:17 pm Pinnick and the NFF board need to be tried at the Hague for crimes against humanity, cause you can't tell me someone in that whole glass house didn't sit down to preen Rohrs mediocre coaching records and CV before giving the approval to hire him... that's just unpardonable especially now that the same idiots who hired him are now stuck in a cat-and-mouse circus with Rohr just to fire him. Meanwhile Egypt, Ghana and even smaller nations can easily fire their underperforming coaches without all this shameless drama... Nigeria is truly a big joke.
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Re: Is it time to ASK NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by OJI »

The current Pinnick-Led NFF does NOT have the ability to hire any serious coach.

It starts with Pinnick being in charge. His arrival to the position, understanding of his position, vision is to outsource all development to outsiders. Previous NFF administrators who had intimate knowledge of the deficiencies of the development, and administration of the game in Nigeria upon retirement kept their passion for the game and attempted to contribute in one form. Some went into Youth Academy development (e.g. Sani Lulu, and his Abuja based FOSLA academy). Pinnick has no passion, understanding or interest for the game. This position according to him is a stepping stone. He is interested in the privileges, lifestyle not the responsibilities.

Primary role of a coach under Pinnick is to convert foreign born, and raised dual-nationality Nigerians. He has, and will have conflicts with any ex player turned coach familiar with the dysfunction, and rot of the NFF. Such ex player would compensate (unethically) and/or raise noise. As per Pinnick, the primary role of the coach is NOT to bring off-field issues that affect morale, management, and organization of the team to the surface. Forget the coach using, and optimizing the available talent. Forget 352, 443, 424 or whatever game day tactics. It is not about what is supposed to happen on the field. Player selection, tactics, game management is not the issue. Don't bring my ineptitude to the surface. That is why he knows, and appreciates the real use of Rohr. Guess what? Rohr understands this arrangement very well, and is playing along.

It was never about winning football.
Last edited by OJI on Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Orion »

Teams managed
1990 Bordeaux
1991–1992 Bordeaux
1996 Bordeaux
1999–2000 Créteil
2002–2005 Nice
2005–2006 Young Boys
2007–2008 Ajaccio
2008–2009 Étoile Sahel[3]
2009 Nantes
2010–2012 Gabon
2012–2014 Niger
2015 Burkina Faso

That's the experience we're talking about. When he was appointed, we didn't have anyone that can match that experience. Keep in mind there are also many other issues to take into account. We're limited to the best coach we can afford, clearly as a poor FA. Rohr was not even the first choice as Damunk pointed out.

Regarding Gabon, Niger, and Burkina Faso, surely you don't expect him to be a world-beater with these teams? Those are 2nd and 3rd tier African teams that never won anything before or after Rohr.

Rohr met all his objectives so his contract was extended. Yes, he lost to CAR. Horrible result! If Nigerians can't accept that loss despite qualifying for the playoffs, then pay the guy off and get another coach!

You guys are focusing on only the coach. But players were complaining of not being paid their bonuses and the coach has not been paid for several months. The problems run much deeper than the coach.

There really is no point belabouring this issue. Did we fail to qualify for the 2018 World Cup? Did we fail to qualify for the 2019 AFCON? Did we fail to qualify for the 2021 AFCON? Did we fail to get to the playoffs for the 2022 WC?

You hate the coach. OK, OK, we hear you! But the guy has not failed on any of his objectives so far. Jeez.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by txj »

What am I missing here? Has Rohr been fired?
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Orion »

txj wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:19 pm What am I missing here? Has Rohr been fired?
Nothing official from the NFF yet.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by joao »

Orion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:21 pm
txj wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:19 pm What am I missing here? Has Rohr been fired?
Nothing official from the NFF yet.
:lol: :lol: :lol: ...And CE 'ITK's have written about replacement coach and his possible selections and lineups for AFCON and World Cup qualifiers.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Enugu II »

Orion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:45 pm Teams managed
1990 Bordeaux
1991–1992 Bordeaux
1996 Bordeaux
1999–2000 Créteil
2002–2005 Nice
2005–2006 Young Boys
2007–2008 Ajaccio
2008–2009 Étoile Sahel[3]
2009 Nantes
2010–2012 Gabon
2012–2014 Niger
2015 Burkina Faso

That's the experience we're talking about. When he was appointed, we didn't have anyone that can match that experience. Keep in mind there are also many other issues to take into account. We're limited to the best coach we can afford, clearly as a poor FA. Rohr was not even the first choice as Damunk pointed out.

Regarding Gabon, Niger, and Burkina Faso, surely you don't expect him to be a world-beater with these teams? Those are 2nd and 3rd tier African teams that never won anything before or after Rohr.

Rohr met all his objectives so his contract was extended. Yes, he lost to CAR. Horrible result! If Nigerians can't accept that loss despite qualifying for the playoffs, then pay the guy off and get another coach!

You guys are focusing on only the coach. But players were complaining of not being paid their bonuses and the coach has not been paid for several months. The problems run much deeper than the coach.

There really is no point belabouring this issue. Did we fail to qualify for the 2018 World Cup? Did we fail to qualify for the 2019 AFCON? Did we fail to qualify for the 2021 AFCON? Did we fail to get to the playoffs for the 2022 WC?

You hate the coach. OK, OK, we hear you! But the guy has not failed on any of his objectives so far. Jeez.

Orion,

I do not hate the Coach. What I "hate' (I do not like using the word) is what he did with the Super Eagles. Please note the difference. So it is not about the person but about the record.

Second, your analysis does not appear to be deep. You seem to state that as long as someone has coached for a long time it is good for you. It does not matter whether he has been successful or not for that long period. Is that correct?

If it is not, then one would have expected you to take a closer look at Rohr's record, examine and analyze it.

Take one example. Rohr was coach at Burkina Faso. You remember Burkina Faso? They were the guys we beat at the AFCON final game to win the AFCON in 2013 under Keshi. Shortly after that, Burkina hired Gernot Rohr in 2015 (2 years after). Gernot's record with Burkina Faso? 3-3-5 (W-D-L) and he was duly let go. In essence, Rohr lost 5 of his first 11 games (!!) managing a team that had recently finished second in Africa.

After Rohr, so what happened to Burkina Faso? In 2017, the same Burkina Faso finished third at the AFCON. That is just an example.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA »

Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:34 pm
Orion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:45 pm Teams managed
1990 Bordeaux
1991–1992 Bordeaux
1996 Bordeaux
1999–2000 Créteil
2002–2005 Nice
2005–2006 Young Boys
2007–2008 Ajaccio
2008–2009 Étoile Sahel[3]
2009 Nantes
2010–2012 Gabon
2012–2014 Niger
2015 Burkina Faso

That's the experience we're talking about. When he was appointed, we didn't have anyone that can match that experience. Keep in mind there are also many other issues to take into account. We're limited to the best coach we can afford, clearly as a poor FA. Rohr was not even the first choice as Damunk pointed out.

Regarding Gabon, Niger, and Burkina Faso, surely you don't expect him to be a world-beater with these teams? Those are 2nd and 3rd tier African teams that never won anything before or after Rohr.

Rohr met all his objectives so his contract was extended. Yes, he lost to CAR. Horrible result! If Nigerians can't accept that loss despite qualifying for the playoffs, then pay the guy off and get another coach!

You guys are focusing on only the coach. But players were complaining of not being paid their bonuses and the coach has not been paid for several months. The problems run much deeper than the coach.

There really is no point belabouring this issue. Did we fail to qualify for the 2018 World Cup? Did we fail to qualify for the 2019 AFCON? Did we fail to qualify for the 2021 AFCON? Did we fail to get to the playoffs for the 2022 WC?

You hate the coach. OK, OK, we hear you! But the guy has not failed on any of his objectives so far. Jeez.

Orion,

I do not hate the Coach. What I "hate' (I do not like using the word) is what he did with the Super Eagles. Please note the difference. So it is not about the person but about the record.

Second, your analysis does not appear to be deep. You seem to state that as long as someone has coached for a long time it is good for you. It does not matter whether he has been successful or not for that long period. Is that correct?

If it is not, then one would have expected you to take a closer look at Rohr's record, examine and analyze it.

Take one example. Rohr was coach at Burkina Faso. You remember Burkina Faso? They were the guys we beat at the AFCON final game to win the AFCON in 2013 under Keshi. Shortly after that, Burkina hired Gernot Rohr in 2015 (2 years after). Gernot's record with Burkina Faso? 3-3-5 (W-D-L) and he was duly let go. In essence, Rohr lost 5 of his first 11 games (!!) managing a team that had recently finished second in Africa.

After Rohr, so what happened to Burkina Faso? In 2017, the same Burkina Faso finished third at the AFCON. That is just an example.
You seem to believe the coach is always the problem whenever a team loses. The same Rohr who had a bad record with BF was able to qualify the SE for Afcon after missing 2 consecutive Afcon and qualify for the WC easily from the toughest group.

Teams behave differently under different coach and have varying trajectories. If your analogy is correct the same coaches would be winning every time.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Enugu II »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:49 pm
Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:34 pm
Orion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:45 pm Teams managed
1990 Bordeaux
1991–1992 Bordeaux
1996 Bordeaux
1999–2000 Créteil
2002–2005 Nice
2005–2006 Young Boys
2007–2008 Ajaccio
2008–2009 Étoile Sahel[3]
2009 Nantes
2010–2012 Gabon
2012–2014 Niger
2015 Burkina Faso

That's the experience we're talking about. When he was appointed, we didn't have anyone that can match that experience. Keep in mind there are also many other issues to take into account. We're limited to the best coach we can afford, clearly as a poor FA. Rohr was not even the first choice as Damunk pointed out.

Regarding Gabon, Niger, and Burkina Faso, surely you don't expect him to be a world-beater with these teams? Those are 2nd and 3rd tier African teams that never won anything before or after Rohr.

Rohr met all his objectives so his contract was extended. Yes, he lost to CAR. Horrible result! If Nigerians can't accept that loss despite qualifying for the playoffs, then pay the guy off and get another coach!

You guys are focusing on only the coach. But players were complaining of not being paid their bonuses and the coach has not been paid for several months. The problems run much deeper than the coach.

There really is no point belabouring this issue. Did we fail to qualify for the 2018 World Cup? Did we fail to qualify for the 2019 AFCON? Did we fail to qualify for the 2021 AFCON? Did we fail to get to the playoffs for the 2022 WC?

You hate the coach. OK, OK, we hear you! But the guy has not failed on any of his objectives so far. Jeez.

Orion,

I do not hate the Coach. What I "hate' (I do not like using the word) is what he did with the Super Eagles. Please note the difference. So it is not about the person but about the record.

Second, your analysis does not appear to be deep. You seem to state that as long as someone has coached for a long time it is good for you. It does not matter whether he has been successful or not for that long period. Is that correct?

If it is not, then one would have expected you to take a closer look at Rohr's record, examine and analyze it.

Take one example. Rohr was coach at Burkina Faso. You remember Burkina Faso? They were the guys we beat at the AFCON final game to win the AFCON in 2013 under Keshi. Shortly after that, Burkina hired Gernot Rohr in 2015 (2 years after). Gernot's record with Burkina Faso? 3-3-5 (W-D-L) and he was duly let go. In essence, Rohr lost 5 of his first 11 games (!!) managing a team that had recently finished second in Africa.

After Rohr, so what happened to Burkina Faso? In 2017, the same Burkina Faso finished third at the AFCON. That is just an example.
You seem to believe the coach is always the problem whenever a team loses. The same Rohr who had a bad record with BF was able to qualify the SE for Afcon after missing 2 consecutive Afcon and qualify for the WC easily from the toughest group.

Teams behave differently under different coach and have varying trajectories. If your analogy is correct the same coaches would be winning every time.
Perspective?

Nigeria more than likely will always qualify for the AFCON and more so now with over 20 teams getting there. What is Nigeria ranked, bros? Where has Nigeria mostly ranked in Africa even during our worst moments? That should tell you that qualifying for the AFCON is not a big deal in today's qualification calculations.

Even before today, when fewer teams qualified as was the case before Rohr was hired, Nigeria was more likely than not to qualify.

Thus, it is an oddity and not the usual when Nigeria does not qualify.

That leads to the question: So why did Nigeria not qualify before Rohr was hired? First, the NFF fought against the coach and in the second case, an oddity placed Nigeria v Egypt for a p[lace in the AFCON. You do understand what that oddity means? I am pretty sure that you do,.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Is it time to ASK NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Cellular »

OJI wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:44 pm The current Pinnick-Led NFF does NOT have the ability to hire any serious coach.

It starts with Pinnick being in charge. His arrival to the position, understanding of his position, vision is to outsource all development to outsiders. Previous NFF administrators who had intimate knowledge of the deficiencies of the development, and administration of the game in Nigeria upon retirement kept their passion for the game and attempted to contribute in one form. Some went into Youth Academy development (e.g. Sani Lulu, and his Abuja based FOSLA academy). Pinnick has no passion, understanding or interest for the game. This position according to him is a stepping stone. He is interested in the privileges, lifestyle not the responsibilities.

Primary role of a coach under Pinnick is to convert foreign born, and raised dual-nationality Nigerians. He has, and will have conflicts with any ex player turned coach familiar with the dysfunction, and rot of the NFF. Such ex player would compensate (unethically) and/or raise noise. As per Pinnick, the primary role of the coach is NOT to bring off-field issues that affect morale, management, and organization of the team to the surface. Forget the coach using, and optimizing the available talent. Forget 352, 443, 424 or whatever game day tactics. It is not about what is supposed to happen on the field. Player selection, tactics, game management is not the issue. Don't bring my ineptitude to the surface. That is why he knows, and appreciates the real use of Rohr. Guess what? Rohr understands this arrangement very well, and is playing along.

It was never about winning football.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA »

Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:06 pm
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:49 pm
Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:34 pm
Orion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:45 pm Teams managed
1990 Bordeaux
1991–1992 Bordeaux
1996 Bordeaux
1999–2000 Créteil
2002–2005 Nice
2005–2006 Young Boys
2007–2008 Ajaccio
2008–2009 Étoile Sahel[3]
2009 Nantes
2010–2012 Gabon
2012–2014 Niger
2015 Burkina Faso

That's the experience we're talking about. When he was appointed, we didn't have anyone that can match that experience. Keep in mind there are also many other issues to take into account. We're limited to the best coach we can afford, clearly as a poor FA. Rohr was not even the first choice as Damunk pointed out.

Regarding Gabon, Niger, and Burkina Faso, surely you don't expect him to be a world-beater with these teams? Those are 2nd and 3rd tier African teams that never won anything before or after Rohr.

Rohr met all his objectives so his contract was extended. Yes, he lost to CAR. Horrible result! If Nigerians can't accept that loss despite qualifying for the playoffs, then pay the guy off and get another coach!

You guys are focusing on only the coach. But players were complaining of not being paid their bonuses and the coach has not been paid for several months. The problems run much deeper than the coach.

There really is no point belabouring this issue. Did we fail to qualify for the 2018 World Cup? Did we fail to qualify for the 2019 AFCON? Did we fail to qualify for the 2021 AFCON? Did we fail to get to the playoffs for the 2022 WC?

You hate the coach. OK, OK, we hear you! But the guy has not failed on any of his objectives so far. Jeez.

Orion,

I do not hate the Coach. What I "hate' (I do not like using the word) is what he did with the Super Eagles. Please note the difference. So it is not about the person but about the record.

Second, your analysis does not appear to be deep. You seem to state that as long as someone has coached for a long time it is good for you. It does not matter whether he has been successful or not for that long period. Is that correct?

If it is not, then one would have expected you to take a closer look at Rohr's record, examine and analyze it.

Take one example. Rohr was coach at Burkina Faso. You remember Burkina Faso? They were the guys we beat at the AFCON final game to win the AFCON in 2013 under Keshi. Shortly after that, Burkina hired Gernot Rohr in 2015 (2 years after). Gernot's record with Burkina Faso? 3-3-5 (W-D-L) and he was duly let go. In essence, Rohr lost 5 of his first 11 games (!!) managing a team that had recently finished second in Africa.

After Rohr, so what happened to Burkina Faso? In 2017, the same Burkina Faso finished third at the AFCON. That is just an example.
You seem to believe the coach is always the problem whenever a team loses. The same Rohr who had a bad record with BF was able to qualify the SE for Afcon after missing 2 consecutive Afcon and qualify for the WC easily from the toughest group.

Teams behave differently under different coach and have varying trajectories. If your analogy is correct the same coaches would be winning every time.
Perspective?

Nigeria more than likely will always qualify for the AFCON and more so now with over 20 teams getting there. What is Nigeria ranked, bros? Where has Nigeria mostly ranked in Africa even during our worst moments? That should tell you that qualifying for the AFCON is not a big deal in today's qualification calculations.

Even before today, when fewer teams qualified as was the case before Rohr was hired, Nigeria was more likely than not to qualify.

Thus, it is an oddity and not the usual when Nigeria does not qualify.

That leads to the question: So why did Nigeria not qualify before Rohr was hired? First, the NFF fought against the coach and in the second case, an oddity placed Nigeria v Egypt for a p[lace in the AFCON. You do understand what that oddity means? I am pretty sure that you do,.
Oddity? Missing 2 Afcons is not an Oddity, it's a pattern.. You bring up an issue and then dance around when confronted with facts. The main issue here is your claim that Rohr's record was bad and you pointed to his BF record.

Rohr then qualifies SE for Afcon after we DNQ twice and qualifies for the World cup 18 from the toughest group . If drawing Egypt is an oddity, what about drawing Cameroun,Algeria and Zambia?

Your argument has fallen flat on its face but keep trying . Sometimes it's just better to admit you don't know .
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Enugu II »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:37 pm
Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:06 pm
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:49 pm
Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:34 pm
Orion wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:45 pm Teams managed
1990 Bordeaux
1991–1992 Bordeaux
1996 Bordeaux
1999–2000 Créteil
2002–2005 Nice
2005–2006 Young Boys
2007–2008 Ajaccio
2008–2009 Étoile Sahel[3]
2009 Nantes
2010–2012 Gabon
2012–2014 Niger
2015 Burkina Faso

That's the experience we're talking about. When he was appointed, we didn't have anyone that can match that experience. Keep in mind there are also many other issues to take into account. We're limited to the best coach we can afford, clearly as a poor FA. Rohr was not even the first choice as Damunk pointed out.

Regarding Gabon, Niger, and Burkina Faso, surely you don't expect him to be a world-beater with these teams? Those are 2nd and 3rd tier African teams that never won anything before or after Rohr.

Rohr met all his objectives so his contract was extended. Yes, he lost to CAR. Horrible result! If Nigerians can't accept that loss despite qualifying for the playoffs, then pay the guy off and get another coach!

You guys are focusing on only the coach. But players were complaining of not being paid their bonuses and the coach has not been paid for several months. The problems run much deeper than the coach.

There really is no point belabouring this issue. Did we fail to qualify for the 2018 World Cup? Did we fail to qualify for the 2019 AFCON? Did we fail to qualify for the 2021 AFCON? Did we fail to get to the playoffs for the 2022 WC?

You hate the coach. OK, OK, we hear you! But the guy has not failed on any of his objectives so far. Jeez.

Orion,

I do not hate the Coach. What I "hate' (I do not like using the word) is what he did with the Super Eagles. Please note the difference. So it is not about the person but about the record.

Second, your analysis does not appear to be deep. You seem to state that as long as someone has coached for a long time it is good for you. It does not matter whether he has been successful or not for that long period. Is that correct?

If it is not, then one would have expected you to take a closer look at Rohr's record, examine and analyze it.

Take one example. Rohr was coach at Burkina Faso. You remember Burkina Faso? They were the guys we beat at the AFCON final game to win the AFCON in 2013 under Keshi. Shortly after that, Burkina hired Gernot Rohr in 2015 (2 years after). Gernot's record with Burkina Faso? 3-3-5 (W-D-L) and he was duly let go. In essence, Rohr lost 5 of his first 11 games (!!) managing a team that had recently finished second in Africa.

After Rohr, so what happened to Burkina Faso? In 2017, the same Burkina Faso finished third at the AFCON. That is just an example.
You seem to believe the coach is always the problem whenever a team loses. The same Rohr who had a bad record with BF was able to qualify the SE for Afcon after missing 2 consecutive Afcon and qualify for the WC easily from the toughest group.

Teams behave differently under different coach and have varying trajectories. If your analogy is correct the same coaches would be winning every time.
Perspective?

Nigeria more than likely will always qualify for the AFCON and more so now with over 20 teams getting there. What is Nigeria ranked, bros? Where has Nigeria mostly ranked in Africa even during our worst moments? That should tell you that qualifying for the AFCON is not a big deal in today's qualification calculations.

Even before today, when fewer teams qualified as was the case before Rohr was hired, Nigeria was more likely than not to qualify.

Thus, it is an oddity and not the usual when Nigeria does not qualify.

That leads to the question: So why did Nigeria not qualify before Rohr was hired? First, the NFF fought against the coach and in the second case, an oddity placed Nigeria v Egypt for a p[lace in the AFCON. You do understand what that oddity means? I am pretty sure that you do,.
Oddity? Missing 2 Afcons is not an Oddity, it's a pattern.. You bring up an issue and then dance around when confronted with facts. The main issue here is your claim that Rohr's record was bad and you pointed to his BF record.

Rohr then qualifies SE for Afcon after we DNQ twice and qualifies for the World cup 18 from the toughest group . If drawing Egypt is an oddity, what about drawing Cameroun,Algeria and Zambia?

Your argument has fallen flat on its face but keep trying . Sometimes it's just better to admit you don't know .
An oddity has been explained by mean to differentiate between why it is odd and not a pattern. Now if you feel that the recent downturn if Rohr with a Super Eagles is an oddity. I have not argued against thT but the onus us on you to convince us why it I s an oddity and not a pattern. Can you please explain why?
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Orion »

Enugu II wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:34 pm Second, your analysis does not appear to be deep. You seem to state that as long as someone has coached for a long time it is good for you. It does not matter whether he has been successful or not for that long period. Is that correct?
There are times when a job is just a bad fit for a coach, plus Burkina Faso is one of those inconsistent African teams. One year they could be on fire and the next, in the dumps. It's a country of 20 million people. They have less of a player pool.

The point is, Rohr was clearly not employed on the strength of his BF record, but the totality of his experience coaching top teams (Bordeaux, Nice, Nantes etc are top teams in France) AND experience coaching national teams on the African continent.

So I look at the totality of the coach's experience rather than one poor stint. A coach with a long record must have something to offer to keep getting jobs and staying in the profession. Abi?
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Orion »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:37 pm Oddity? Missing 2 Afcons is not an Oddity, it's a pattern..
Good point. But make that 3 in 4. We missed 3 AFCONs out of 4. A 25% success rate at qualifying during that period! Rohr has had a 100% success rate at qualifying.

Enugu II will ignore this pattern and harp on about the cup we won in 2013 (after 19 years) under an LC as if that justifies the high failure rate.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Enugu II »

Orion wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:18 am
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:37 pm Oddity? Missing 2 Afcons is not an Oddity, it's a pattern..
Good point. But make that 3 in 4. We missed 3 AFCONs out of 4. A 25% success rate at qualifying during that period! Rohr has had a 100% success rate at qualifying.

Enugu II will ignore this pattern and harp on about the cup we won in 2013 (after 19 years) under an LC as if that justifies the high failure rate.
Okay if it is a pattern, please explain to me why the pattern was broken and Nigeria won the AFCON. Or was the win prior to 2011? If the pattern was of local coaches failing, how come a local coach then won within that period. Please explain. What really happened?
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA »

Enugu II wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:41 am
Orion wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:18 am
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:37 pm Oddity? Missing 2 Afcons is not an Oddity, it's a pattern..
Good point. But make that 3 in 4. We missed 3 AFCONs out of 4. A 25% success rate at qualifying during that period! Rohr has had a 100% success rate at qualifying.

Enugu II will ignore this pattern and harp on about the cup we won in 2013 (after 19 years) under an LC as if that justifies the high failure rate.
Okay if it is a pattern, please explain to me why the pattern was broken and Nigeria won the AFCON. Or was the win prior to 2011? If the pattern was of local coaches failing, how come a local coach then won within that period. Please explain. What really happened?

The pattern started post 2013 after we won AFCON with Keshi as coach, we did not return to AFCON until 2019, Since AFCON happens every 2yrs it's obviously not an oddity but a pattern. In comes Rohr, he qualifies easily for both AFCON and WC and has qualified for his 2nd AFCON and about to qualify for his 2nd wc. That, my friend, is also a pattern.

When U find yourself n a hole, stop digging. :laugh:
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Enugu II »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:21 am
Enugu II wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:41 am
Orion wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:18 am
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:37 pm Oddity? Missing 2 Afcons is not an Oddity, it's a pattern..
Good point. But make that 3 in 4. We missed 3 AFCONs out of 4. A 25% success rate at qualifying during that period! Rohr has had a 100% success rate at qualifying.

Enugu II will ignore this pattern and harp on about the cup we won in 2013 (after 19 years) under an LC as if that justifies the high failure rate.
Okay if it is a pattern, please explain to me why the pattern was broken and Nigeria won the AFCON. Or was the win prior to 2011? If the pattern was of local coaches failing, how come a local coach then won within that period. Please explain. What really happened?

The pattern started post 2013 after we won AFCON with Keshi as coach, we did not return to AFCON until 2019, Since AFCON happens every 2yrs it's obviously not an oddity but a pattern. In comes Rohr, he qualifies easily for both AFCON and WC and has qualified for his 2nd AFCON and about to qualify for his 2nd wc. That, my friend, is also a pattern.

When U find yourself n a hole, stop digging. :laugh:
Emir,

If you state it is pattern. You still have not explained why the pattern existed? I have told you that those results are aberrant and pointed out why.

You clam they reflect a pattern but fail to explain why the pattern existed and what was different during that period that led to this pattern. Let me help you out a bit: Was it because the coaches were bad and how so? Did Nigeria suddenly fasil to produce good talents? What was it that caused the "pattern"? By explaining, it is easier for us to examine your explanation to ascertain its logic.

For instance, you have agreed that 2011 failure was aberrant given the record before and after 2011. So that problem is solved.

With 2013 & 2015(?) failures, what is yet to be established is whether they represent a pattern or that they are aberrant. I have argued that they are aberrant and I provided reasons why. You argue that it is a pattern but have YET to advance reasons why.
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Re: Is it time to QUESTION NFF's ability to hire the Right Guy?

Post by Damunk »

I’d use the word trend rather than pattern.
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