Joe Aribo!!!!

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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Lolly »

return2k2 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:54 pm
And some agberos are calling them “init” Nigerians.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

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return2k2 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:54 pm

Damn, thats a big boy!
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Damunk »

Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:45 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm I agree totally.
Putting it diplomatically, "unconscious bias" rooted in racism and ultra-nationalism - which is itself hypocritical cos I don't see too many of these critics rushing back home to Nigeria to rough it out.

As a foreign-born Nigerian myself I take serious exception to my Nigerianness being subtly and indirectly questioned by people who themselves have run away from Nigeria and get their orgasms by denigrating virtually everything Nigerian.
Then when it comes to football, they are suddenly more 'Nigerian' than Herbert Macauley. :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That was never the point of my post.

You don't develop a sport by outsourcing your responsibilities to others.

Or as the Americans say, via "Free Agency".

Oh BTW, your Naijarianness should be questioned if you believe that because you are outside of Naijaria you are better than those in Naijaria who all they are missing in most cases is an OPPORTUNITY.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
What makes you think my post was about your post in particular?
Is there something in my post that applies to you? :lol:
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Cellular »

vancity eagle wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:52 pm Nobody disagrees that the league should be improved.

but pray tell what does that have to do with quota ?

When people mention the very concept, it is clear they have alterior motives that have NOTHING to do with football.
I have not hidden my bias or ulterior motive, whatever that means.

Fans want to win! They want a team they can be proud rooting for. Most don't care about the process... they just want to win!

The job of an administrator is to figure out how you can build and sustain a winning team/system.

Can you build and win at the same time?

It is really a case of one's philosophy on how to win... some don't believe in building or sustainable growth/development.

But you MUST first have the will before you find the way.
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Cellular »

Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:11 pm
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:45 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm I agree totally.
Putting it diplomatically, "unconscious bias" rooted in racism and ultra-nationalism - which is itself hypocritical cos I don't see too many of these critics rushing back home to Nigeria to rough it out.

As a foreign-born Nigerian myself I take serious exception to my Nigerianness being subtly and indirectly questioned by people who themselves have run away from Nigeria and get their orgasms by denigrating virtually everything Nigerian.
Then when it comes to football, they are suddenly more 'Nigerian' than Herbert Macauley. :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That was never the point of my post.

You don't develop a sport by outsourcing your responsibilities to others.

Or as the Americans say, via "Free Agency".

Oh BTW, your Naijarianness should be questioned if you believe that because you are outside of Naijaria you are better than those in Naijaria who all they are missing in most cases is an OPPORTUNITY.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
What makes you think my post was about your post in particular?
Is there something in my post that applies to you? :lol:
:lol: :lol:
You responded to a post of Vancity Eagle responding to a post by Otitiokora who was responding to my post.

Anyway, I was responding to YOUR post.

If it doesn't apply to you it is okay as well. :D
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Damunk »

Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:19 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:11 pm
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:45 pm
Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm I agree totally.
Putting it diplomatically, "unconscious bias" rooted in racism and ultra-nationalism - which is itself hypocritical cos I don't see too many of these critics rushing back home to Nigeria to rough it out.

As a foreign-born Nigerian myself I take serious exception to my Nigerianness being subtly and indirectly questioned by people who themselves have run away from Nigeria and get their orgasms by denigrating virtually everything Nigerian.
Then when it comes to football, they are suddenly more 'Nigerian' than Herbert Macauley. :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That was never the point of my post.

You don't develop a sport by outsourcing your responsibilities to others.

Or as the Americans say, via "Free Agency".

Oh BTW, your Naijarianness should be questioned if you believe that because you are outside of Naijaria you are better than those in Naijaria who all they are missing in most cases is an OPPORTUNITY.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
What makes you think my post was about your post in particular?
Is there something in my post that applies to you? :lol:
:lol: :lol:
You responded to a post of Vancity Eagle responding to a post by Otitiokora who was responding to my post.
Well, then you’d agree you might be stretching it a bit.
Anyway, I was responding to YOUR post.

If it doesn't apply to you it is okay as well. :D
Yes, that’s exactly why I took you up on it. :idea:
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Otitokoro »

Sure you have...
(could have fooled me :winking: )
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

First off, my statement was about not basing the FOUNDATION of your national team on players who got their start and were trained overseas. Giving the likes of John Chidozie and others doesn't help your argument.

I have been and always been an advocate of getting players from any part of the world as long as they are of Naijarian descent‎.
All the previous programs that have been in existence that helped provide a source for our youth teams still exist. The U15, U15, Principals Cup (Shell Cup) and others are still there. Lagos for instance, has mini stadiums all around town (saw the one in Yaba - just as you come off Third Mainland bridge) which serves as a place for grass root teams to play. This WAS built during the Pinnick regime. So your comment about youth program abandonment is patently FALSE.
Which Nigerian clubsides have youth teams? They are very few and far between. Also, you seem to neglect the fact that there is a HUGE credibility issue with Nigerian clubsides with regards Age Cheating. Most foreign clubs will NOT touch or deal with a Nigerian club because of the historical precedence. They clearly prefer independent academies who have proven to be more credible.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Pinnick has over the years eroded any gains we have had with our youth teams who are our pseudo feeder team. You talk about 2015... 2015 is a long time. This leadership has had a history of abandoning the youth project and preferring ready made players. You stated that my comment about foreign academies being false. Well, professional clubs have academies, it is from the academies players graduate to become professionals. How many players on this squad are a product of a Naijarian professional team?
Seriously??? When was it the job of the Federation President to scout for up and coming players? What role do local coaches play then? We DO export talent (its been done every day - its just that you've conveniently opted to turn a blind eye to where that talent is coming from, which is the Independent Academies).
On the contrary, Pinnick is taking the HARD way in building our National team for the future. He has the unenviable task of having to meet with and convince players who want to switch, but are apprehensive. He has to be the one to assuage their fears and face the wrath of Nigerian football fans when he fails in that bid. He could have chosen the path his predecessors chose, which was to do nothing about improving and widening the talent pool.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm
PINNICK DOES NOT BOTHER TO LOOK. He doesn't rate them. We should be in the business of exporting football talent... our greatest NATIONAL ASSET is OUR PEOPLE.

The onus of someone placed in a position of leadership is NOT to take the easy road that is not sustainable.
Story! Where the heck are they?
Also, who has time, in this day and age, to be waiting around to 'polish' a player that can be hit or miss?
Dude, the stakes are way too high to be playing 'hit or miss' for these clubs (and in the case of Nigerian players, its more 'miss' than 'hit'). That's why the major clubs, for example, would rather have younger products who have growth potential - again, another key reason clubs recruit from Nigeria Academies (more credible with age of their products) than the National League (history of age falsification).
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm If folks are marveling at Eberechi Eze, Sako, Olise, etc, we should be telling them we have more like that, that needs polishing. Not waiting for others to groom and then we poach them... and folks not caring about growing our base.

We have more Naijarians living in Naijaria than outside Naijaria, playing a sport that is the primary sport of Naijarians. And we have an NFF leadership that doesn't believe in those Naijarians, and like you, I suspect don't rate Naijarian footballers in Naijaria.
This directly contradicts your argument about 'knowledge transfer'.
How is that knowledge supposed to be transferred, if those who have had the knowledge transferred to them (via the Quota system some have advocated for) hop on the earliest next train out of town?
You just helped confirm the point that forcing local players into the National team is a waste of time and resources - no intrinsic benefit to HB players.
Also, as a spectator during the Summer series Cup last here in Houston, I learnt a TON from watching the USWNT execute tactics and strategies and also, watch and learn from their warm up routine. I was able to apply such learnings to the team I coach, to great success. Didn't have to be a part of the squad to observe and learn that.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Footballers when given an opportunity should be able to move on to greener pastures. That is the aim. Upward mobility. They are not supposed to remain local. They are supposed to use the platform the National team presents to them to seek greener pastures and for someone else to replace them. It should be a conveyor belt of some sort... a "Next man up". They are not supposed to toil in backwater leagues before making it bigtime...

It is unfortunate that you fail to see the impact of knowledge transfer just by being exposed to best practices that other players have been exposed to... something as simple as warm-up routines, how to study or apply instructions...
Like I stated earlier, you don't have 'more Sakas of the world' in Nigeria. If they existed, they would have since been picked up by an independent academy in Nigeria and 'processed' for upward mobility to a club in Europe.
Nigerians really need to stop kidding themselves and stop trying to 'see' things that don't exist.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Yes, football is a multi-billion dollar business. That is the more reason we have to show the world that we have more Sakas of the world in Naijaria waiting for an opportunity.

What is missing is the willpower by an NFF leadership willing to look inwards.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by TonyTheTigerKiller »

Otitokoro wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:42 pm The FACT is over 95% of all the 'Nigerian' players worth looking at (and I am referring to those who were home born, bred and groomed) ARE in Europe. It would make no sense whatsoever for the focus to be elsewhere.
Which tens of thousands are you referring to? Name me a single one worth focusing on, who has not yet been picked up by a Nigerian Academy and/or scouted by an European outfit.

The reality is that this is NOT 2013, where the Nigerian league was below average but perhaps, one or two potential nuggets existed. This is 2021/22, and the league sucks big time! No-one is watching the league (Nigerians in Nigeria don't even bother to watch - they are more interested in the premiership). We really need to stop kidding ourselves and focus on the big fish out there who are in Europe.
TonyTheTigerKiller wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:21 pm The pertinent question then becomes, why is a Europe resident the chief scout of the SuperEagles when his scope and options are so limited? We have tens of thousands of players residing in Nigeria compared with just hundreds in Europe. How does it make any sense whatsoever to look at just the few in Europe❓🤷🏾‍♀️❗️
Cheers.
I felt inclined to ignore the rest of your post once I encountered your claim that over 95% of all the 'Nigerian' players worth looking at ARE in Europe. It is quite obvious that you arrived at your conclusion based, not on any factual hypothesis or statistics, but on your erroneous and abjectly insensitive belief that the league sucks big time. Your entire premise is deeply flawed considering that our greatest players in the history of Nigerian football were homegrown and started their football careers right here at home. Moreover, the league, even if inadequate by your estimation, is constantly refreshed with new blood from a variety of sources. Your assessment would imply that Nigerian football is stagnant, a thoroughly nonsensical notion, given the fact that this league has won several continental titles over the years. Add to that the fact that a disorganized league, anywhere in the world, has never implied the absence of talent.

If we were to take your contrived statistics at face value then you would be contending that less than 5% of all locally produced players, regardless of where they end up, be it in Europe or otherwise, are worth looking at. If that were true then Nigeria will never ever rise to the cream of global football and you as a fan would have no right whatsoever to harbor any such expectations❗️


Cheers.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Tbite »

Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm I agree totally.
Putting it diplomatically, "unconscious bias" rooted in racism and ultra-nationalism - which is itself hypocritical cos I don't see too many of these critics rushing back home to Nigeria to rough it out.

As a foreign-born Nigerian myself I take serious exception to my Nigerianness being subtly and indirectly questioned by people who themselves have run away from Nigeria and get their orgasms by denigrating virtually everything Nigerian.
Then when it comes to football, they are suddenly more 'Nigerian' than Herbert Macauley. :roll:
Hmmmm you are making some assumptions.

We have 200 million people in Nigeria and one of the highest participation rates of football (monitored by the CIES, I think the highest participation rate across all the measures). So Nigeria is effectively one of the top 5 places in the world, where there should be no excuse whatsoever for players from the local scene not being the focus. This is not nationalism, this is pure science.

If We had a truly competitive system (no politics, no ideologies) and we had our priorities right, it would 1000000% be the case that only a few people from the Diaspora would make the team. I don't mean opinions, I don't mean beliefs, I mean COMPETITIVELY.

So the fact that it isn't so, means the Nigerian football structure is BROKEN. I don't mean opinions, I don't mean beliefs, I mean we can quantitatively say that the Nigerian football structure is BROKEN. Because the pool of potential talent in Nigeria is many orders of magnitude greater than in the Diaspora. Not even remotely close.

Then what I am basically saying is fine, it is broken. What do we do about it? Do we bury our heads in the sand and accept that it is broken, or do we create some incentives to at least fix the system?

So yes that is why I even mentioned the word quota. In other words, how can we solve a problem if we turn to neglect? Sunset can attest to the fact that we were making progress in the youth development arena, prior to Pinnick and Rohr's unprecedented recruitment spree. I am not saying there is anything wrong with opening doors, but they overdid it.

The youth development has taken a back seat, too many dollars were spent on the new strategy.

and I can give you a hundred examples of why this is a problem. You said whose responsibility is to fix the league, well let us use the word accountability. Lets say we do relatively well enough in the next few years, where does the accountability go?

All I am clearly doing is asking for accountability. I am saying, yes, things look good on the SURFACE, but underneath, things are very bad. This is obviously not a trivial issue, if you understand the machinery of politics.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Tbite »

The Diaspora is a resource mind you, but let us USE it as a resource.

I follow my sports and I study ways that these things can be fleshed out. So no I am far from an ultra-nationalist. Quite the opposite, I will be one of the first to mention that the issue of states is one concocted in the minds of passionate people.

Here is one example of a resource from the Diaspora giving back.

Ben Uzoh (Nigerian-American), played in the D'tigers, he chose to play for the Lagos Islanders and the Rivers Hoopers to give back. I would like to see similar initiatives here, so that we are truly correcting the imbalance.

but it cannot simply the case of, too bad, you're from Surulere, I am fortunate to be born in Chelsea, get over it, I now have your spot. No, we have to remind ourselves, while we support the kid from Chelsea, that the kid from Surulere, MUST be able to get his opportunity in the future. Not maybe, I am saying MUST.

So that means that whatever strategy must be devised to correct the imbalance, we do it. And yes we can think outside of the box. If it means inviting teams from the NPFL to train with the Super Eagles etc. Yes, I am being deadly serious. Because this isn't optional. Structural problems are there to be fixed.

And some people here do not even think of this as a structural problem, which is part of the issue. Which means just me ranting about this is SIGNIFICANT, in and of itself.

Most countries do not have this unique imbalance, so yes, it would seem unprecedented, but it must be. We might be the first country in history that has such a high participation rate in its #1 sport, that relies heavily on switching. I am not talking about this issue.



Once again, I know the complexities of this topic from top to bottom. I am talking about the structure.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Enugu II »

Otitokoro


It is important to discuss some of these issues in their true context. For starters, here are things to ponder.

1. No players coming through locally? First, I doubt that anyone would argue seriously that Nigeria should ignore talent based overseas. First it would not make sense given that our players aspire to play outside the country and there are several eligible players who are residing there. However, it makes little sense to ignore talents that are currently local and will in the foreseeable future be local. Note that talented footballers continue to be born and emerge locally ad infinitum. It is conveyor belt continually active. Non stopping. The talent scouts understand that and if you visit CIES site, each year Nigeria continue to rank in top 10 of countries that continue to produce talent and export. It has not ended. Some of these talents may be good enough to be part of the SE even at a young age. I suspect few qualify but even that number should never be ignored.


2. Youth teams continue to exist but i hope that you notice that achievements have declined. You noted winnings under Pinnick but fail to note they were largely achieved earlier in his tenure. You should ask why. If you do, the answer would be clear. Pinnick has starved those of resources and correlationally performance dipped. Instead of lengthy camps, you have shorter camps. Instead of multiple preparatory games, you have fewer. Result is poorer preparation and poorer results. Same problems now persistently plague our clubs in continental competitions
These should not be mistakenly equated to lack of talent.


3. Why Pinnick focusing outside the country? Related to the above is Pinnick shifting attention to eligible players born overseas. The focus is not because u se talents have dried up at home but because Pinnick used that method as Delta Director of Sports to win the sports festival and gas since vowed to replicate same with Nigeria. Atleast that is what it seems. His camping of youth players in London early in his tenure and statements made then are revealing.

Now if those raised in academies overseas are inherently superior as Pinnick and his supporters claim, then a dew questions bear asking: 1] are those based locally no longer Nigerians? 2) if they are not talented, how is it that scouts for European clubs still find them in Nigeria and take them overseas where some of them leapfrog those trained for years in European teams to become regulars in European teams? And this in matter of weeks and months. In fact, in one case reported here a player was originally found not in Nigerian academies but in the streets and within an extremely short time rose to the Bundesliga? That after looking to simply play recreationally overseas. The story was posted here.

So what is the point of all this? That it is silly to ignore talent wherever they are as long as they are eligible.

*Excuse errors due to autocorrect.*

Otitokoro wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:41 pm Sure you have...
(could have fooled me :winking: )
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

First off, my statement was about not basing the FOUNDATION of your national team on players who got their start and were trained overseas. Giving the likes of John Chidozie and others doesn't help your argument.

I have been and always been an advocate of getting players from any part of the world as long as they are of Naijarian descent‎.
All the previous programs that have been in existence that helped provide a source for our youth teams still exist. The U15, U15, Principals Cup (Shell Cup) and others are still there. Lagos for instance, has mini stadiums all around town (saw the one in Yaba - just as you come off Third Mainland bridge) which serves as a place for grass root teams to play. This WAS built during the Pinnick regime. So your comment about youth program abandonment is patently FALSE.
Which Nigerian clubsides have youth teams? They are very few and far between. Also, you seem to neglect the fact that there is a HUGE credibility issue with Nigerian clubsides with regards Age Cheating. Most foreign clubs will NOT touch or deal with a Nigerian club because of the historical precedence. They clearly prefer independent academies who have proven to be more credible.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Pinnick has over the years eroded any gains we have had with our youth teams who are our pseudo feeder team. You talk about 2015... 2015 is a long time. This leadership has had a history of abandoning the youth project and preferring ready made players. You stated that my comment about foreign academies being false. Well, professional clubs have academies, it is from the academies players graduate to become professionals. How many players on this squad are a product of a Naijarian professional team?
Seriously??? When was it the job of the Federation President to scout for up and coming players? What role do local coaches play then? We DO export talent (its been done every day - its just that you've conveniently opted to turn a blind eye to where that talent is coming from, which is the Independent Academies).
On the contrary, Pinnick is taking the HARD way in building our National team for the future. He has the unenviable task of having to meet with and convince players who want to switch, but are apprehensive. He has to be the one to assuage their fears and face the wrath of Nigerian football fans when he fails in that bid. He could have chosen the path his predecessors chose, which was to do nothing about improving and widening the talent pool.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm
PINNICK DOES NOT BOTHER TO LOOK. He doesn't rate them. We should be in the business of exporting football talent... our greatest NATIONAL ASSET is OUR PEOPLE.

The onus of someone placed in a position of leadership is NOT to take the easy road that is not sustainable.
Story! Where the heck are they?
Also, who has time, in this day and age, to be waiting around to 'polish' a player that can be hit or miss?
Dude, the stakes are way too high to be playing 'hit or miss' for these clubs (and in the case of Nigerian players, its more 'miss' than 'hit'). That's why the major clubs, for example, would rather have younger products who have growth potential - again, another key reason clubs recruit from Nigeria Academies (more credible with age of their products) than the National League (history of age falsification).
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm If folks are marveling at Eberechi Eze, Sako, Olise, etc, we should be telling them we have more like that, that needs polishing. Not waiting for others to groom and then we poach them... and folks not caring about growing our base.

We have more Naijarians living in Naijaria than outside Naijaria, playing a sport that is the primary sport of Naijarians. And we have an NFF leadership that doesn't believe in those Naijarians, and like you, I suspect don't rate Naijarian footballers in Naijaria.
This directly contradicts your argument about 'knowledge transfer'.
How is that knowledge supposed to be transferred, if those who have had the knowledge transferred to them (via the Quota system some have advocated for) hop on the earliest next train out of town?
You just helped confirm the point that forcing local players into the National team is a waste of time and resources - no intrinsic benefit to HB players.
Also, as a spectator during the Summer series Cup last here in Houston, I learnt a TON from watching the USWNT execute tactics and strategies and also, watch and learn from their warm up routine. I was able to apply such learnings to the team I coach, to great success. Didn't have to be a part of the squad to observe and learn that.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Footballers when given an opportunity should be able to move on to greener pastures. That is the aim. Upward mobility. They are not supposed to remain local. They are supposed to use the platform the National team presents to them to seek greener pastures and for someone else to replace them. It should be a conveyor belt of some sort... a "Next man up". They are not supposed to toil in backwater leagues before making it bigtime...

It is unfortunate that you fail to see the impact of knowledge transfer just by being exposed to best practices that other players have been exposed to... something as simple as warm-up routines, how to study or apply instructions...
Like I stated earlier, you don't have 'more Sakas of the world' in Nigeria. If they existed, they would have since been picked up by an independent academy in Nigeria and 'processed' for upward mobility to a club in Europe.
Nigerians really need to stop kidding themselves and stop trying to 'see' things that don't exist.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Yes, football is a multi-billion dollar business. That is the more reason we have to show the world that we have more Sakas of the world in Naijaria waiting for an opportunity.

What is missing is the willpower by an NFF leadership willing to look inwards.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Damunk »

Tbite wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:08 am
Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm I agree totally.
Putting it diplomatically, "unconscious bias" rooted in racism and ultra-nationalism - which is itself hypocritical cos I don't see too many of these critics rushing back home to Nigeria to rough it out.

As a foreign-born Nigerian myself I take serious exception to my Nigerianness being subtly and indirectly questioned by people who themselves have run away from Nigeria and get their orgasms by denigrating virtually everything Nigerian.
Then when it comes to football, they are suddenly more 'Nigerian' than Herbert Macauley. :roll:
Hmmmm you are making some assumptions.

We have 200 million people in Nigeria and one of the highest participation rates of football (monitored by the CIES, I think the highest participation rate across all the measures). So Nigeria is effectively one of the top 5 places in the world, where there should be no excuse whatsoever for players from the local scene not being the focus. This is not nationalism, this is pure science.

If We had a truly competitive system (no politics, no ideologies) and we had our priorities right, it would 1000000% be the case that only a few people from the Diaspora would make the team. I don't mean opinions, I don't mean beliefs, I mean COMPETITIVELY.

So the fact that it isn't so, means the Nigerian football structure is BROKEN. I don't mean opinions, I don't mean beliefs, I mean we can quantitatively say that the Nigerian football structure is BROKEN. Because the pool of potential talent in Nigeria is many orders of magnitude greater than in the Diaspora. Not even remotely close. Then what I am basically saying is fine, it is broken
I’m not sure where the disagreement is here.
No-one is contesting the fact that the system is not working. So let’s get to the koko of the matter…becos so far what you say is irrelevant to my comments.
But maybe it is on its way….
. What do we do about it? Do we bury our heads in the sand and accept that it is broken, or do we create some incentives to at least fix the system?
Good question. :thumb:
So yes that is why I even mentioned the word quota. In other words, how can we solve a problem if we turn to neglect? Sunset can attest to the fact that we were making progress in the youth development arena, prior to Pinnick and Rohr's unprecedented recruitment spree. I am not saying there is anything wrong with opening doors, but they overdid it.
You can’t just say this and not back it up.
What is your basis for this conclusion?
What was your measure of progress before and what are you looking at now?
You mention youth development. What exactly have you seen or not seen regarding youth development today?
I hope you are not using participation in the U17 World Cup as your sole metric.
That would be silly.
The youth development has taken a back seat, too many dollars were spent on the new strategy.
How?
Specifics please. You need to flesh out your argument and not just repeat fatuous points because everyone else is saying the same thing. Imagine you are speaking to your student called Damunk. :D
I’m not trying to win an argument here. I’m just trying to get to the basic facts devoid of bias.

Are you saying that “recruitment of FB players” which is basically the infamous agent ‘software’, the flight tickets and the hotel bills for like a pool of 15 foreign-born national team players (if that) have sucked up all or most of the resources i.e, “dollars” for national youth development programmes?
I don’t get it.
How? How much are we talking about here? A rough estimate will do.
and I can give you a hundred examples of why this is a problem. You said whose responsibility is to fix the league, well let us use the word accountability. Lets say we do relatively well enough in the next few years, where does the accountability go?
I didnt ask who was responsible, I asked who else is responsible, fully aware of what the NFF is supposed to be doing and what they are not doing.
We are letting everyone else off the hook. Clubs for example. State and federal governments. Corporate sponsors who fail to deliver on promises knowing nobody will or can question them.
All I am clearly doing is asking for accountability. I am saying, yes, things look good on the SURFACE, but underneath, things are very bad. This is obviously not a trivial issue, if you understand the machinery of politics.
But aren’t we all?
But what’s this got to do with foreign-borns anyway? :idea:
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

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Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:16 pm
vancity eagle wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:52 pm Nobody disagrees that the league should be improved.

but pray tell what does that have to do with quota ?

When people mention the very concept, it is clear they have alterior motives that have NOTHING to do with football.
I have not hidden my bias or ulterior motive, whatever that means.

Fans want to win! They want a team they can be proud rooting for. Most don't care about the process... they just want to win!

The job of an administrator is to figure out how you can build and sustain a winning team/system.

Can you build and win at the same time?

It is really a case of one's philosophy on how to win... some don't believe in building or sustainable growth/development.

But you MUST first have the will before you find the way.
There is no ulterior motive in believing what you believe.
It is just an alternative opinion based on your convictions.
This is why I find all these innuendos extremely unhelpful.
VanCity has a different opinion which is fine but to attribute ‘ulterior motives’ to everyone else who disagrees reflects an unfounded arrogance.
But it applies both ways.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

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The issue is somewhat simpler for me. The issue of home based players is a sliding scale

On one end of the scale, you have U13/U17 - We mostly use HB based. This is where the coach should spend 95% of time looking at HB. Very few foreign bred players make it into our U17. Simple reasons - our academies have evolved and more organized than our leagues. Additionally, talent in football is generally scouted early. There are very few exceptions like the Ian wrights and co. Do you know that Ejiara came to niger to try out for U17s? He didn't make it. HB players were preferred over him. From U13 to U21/23, the best local talent will typically flow to where they are/will be best compensated.


On the other end of spectrum is obviously the senior team. At the senior level, again there can be exceptions but the economics of football vs our league economics make it such that looking for talent in our league is almost certainly a poor return on time. I do not expect to find senior level talent in the NPFL..so besides specific CAF tournaments CHAN games that afford opportunities to extract the exceptions, no need spending time looking fresh into this league at this level for talent. What talent? Super Eagles talent? Nah

One thing, if the NPFL simply becomes more organized, and our pitches are decent, officiating gets better, players get paid their salaries etc...if the financial part of the league still significantly lags other parts of the world, I expect talent to drain out still. You can scout for talent from anywhere now.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

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icee wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:35 am The issue is somewhat simpler for me. The issue of home based players is a sliding scale

On one end of the scale, you have U13/U17 - We mostly use HB based. This is where the coach should spend 95% of time looking at HB. Very few foreign bred players make it into our U17. Simple reasons - our academies have evolved and more organized than our leagues. Additionally, talent in football is generally scouted early. There are very few exceptions like the Ian wrights and co. Do you know that Ejiara came to niger to try out for U17s? He didn't make it. HB players were preferred over him. From U13 to U21/23, the best local talent will typically flow to where they are/will be best compensated.


On the other end of spectrum is obviously the senior team. At the senior level, again there can be exceptions but the economics of football vs our league economics make it such that looking for talent in our league is almost certainly a poor return on time. I do not expect to find senior level talent in the NPFL..so besides specific CAF tournaments CHAN games that afford opportunities to extract the exceptions, no need spending time looking fresh into this league at this level for talent. What talent? Super Eagles talent? Nah

One thing, if the NPFL simply becomes more organized, and our pitches are decent, officiating gets better, players get paid their salaries etc...if the financial part of the league still significantly lags other parts of the world, I expect talent to drain out still. You can scout for talent from anywhere now.
You’ve said it all in that last sentence.
They all contribute to the mediocre league and yet, if it’s all fixed with a magic wand, players will STILL leave at the earliest chance.
It’s a financial matter on a personal and institutional level and you can’t divorce the league or football in general from the problems we have with the national economy.
I don’t see us competing with the western leagues any time soon.
That’s a pipe dream.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Cellular »

Tbite wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:08 am
Damunk wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:11 pm I agree totally.
Putting it diplomatically, "unconscious bias" rooted in racism and ultra-nationalism - which is itself hypocritical cos I don't see too many of these critics rushing back home to Nigeria to rough it out.

As a foreign-born Nigerian myself I take serious exception to my Nigerianness being subtly and indirectly questioned by people who themselves have run away from Nigeria and get their orgasms by denigrating virtually everything Nigerian.
Then when it comes to football, they are suddenly more 'Nigerian' than Herbert Macauley. :roll:
Hmmmm you are making some assumptions.

We have 200 million people in Nigeria and one of the highest participation rates of football (monitored by the CIES, I think the highest participation rate across all the measures). So Nigeria is effectively one of the top 5 places in the world, where there should be no excuse whatsoever for players from the local scene not being the focus. This is not nationalism, this is pure science.

If We had a truly competitive system (no politics, no ideologies) and we had our priorities right, it would 1000000% be the case that only a few people from the Diaspora would make the team. I don't mean opinions, I don't mean beliefs, I mean COMPETITIVELY.

So the fact that it isn't so, means the Nigerian football structure is BROKEN. I don't mean opinions, I don't mean beliefs, I mean we can quantitatively say that the Nigerian football structure is BROKEN. Because the pool of potential talent in Nigeria is many orders of magnitude greater than in the Diaspora. Not even remotely close.

Then what I am basically saying is fine, it is broken. What do we do about it? Do we bury our heads in the sand and accept that it is broken, or do we create some incentives to at least fix the system?

So yes that is why I even mentioned the word quota. In other words, how can we solve a problem if we turn to neglect? Sunset can attest to the fact that we were making progress in the youth development arena, prior to Pinnick and Rohr's unprecedented recruitment spree. I am not saying there is anything wrong with opening doors, but they overdid it.

The youth development has taken a back seat, too many dollars were spent on the new strategy.

and I can give you a hundred examples of why this is a problem. You said whose responsibility is to fix the league, well let us use the word accountability. Lets say we do relatively well enough in the next few years, where does the accountability go?

All I am clearly doing is asking for accountability. I am saying, yes, things look good on the SURFACE, but underneath, things are very bad. This is obviously not a trivial issue, if you understand the machinery of politics.
TBite, I have missed you.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

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My thread was about the wonderful Joe Aribo. Thanks for derailing.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

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ANC wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:06 am My thread was about the wonderful Joe Aribo. Thanks for derailing.
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Sorry.
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Re: Joe Aribo!!!!

Post by Enyi »

Otitokoro wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:41 pm Sure you have...
(could have fooled me :winking: )
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

First off, my statement was about not basing the FOUNDATION of your national team on players who got their start and were trained overseas. Giving the likes of John Chidozie and others doesn't help your argument.

I have been and always been an advocate of getting players from any part of the world as long as they are of Naijarian descent‎.
All the previous programs that have been in existence that helped provide a source for our youth teams still exist. The U15, U15, Principals Cup (Shell Cup) and others are still there. Lagos for instance, has mini stadiums all around town (saw the one in Yaba - just as you come off Third Mainland bridge) which serves as a place for grass root teams to play. This WAS built during the Pinnick regime. So your comment about youth program abandonment is patently FALSE.
Which Nigerian clubsides have youth teams? They are very few and far between. Also, you seem to neglect the fact that there is a HUGE credibility issue with Nigerian clubsides with regards Age Cheating. Most foreign clubs will NOT touch or deal with a Nigerian club because of the historical precedence. They clearly prefer independent academies who have proven to be more credible.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Pinnick has over the years eroded any gains we have had with our youth teams who are our pseudo feeder team. You talk about 2015... 2015 is a long time. This leadership has had a history of abandoning the youth project and preferring ready made players. You stated that my comment about foreign academies being false. Well, professional clubs have academies, it is from the academies players graduate to become professionals. How many players on this squad are a product of a Naijarian professional team?
Seriously??? When was it the job of the Federation President to scout for up and coming players? What role do local coaches play then? We DO export talent (its been done every day - its just that you've conveniently opted to turn a blind eye to where that talent is coming from, which is the Independent Academies).
On the contrary, Pinnick is taking the HARD way in building our National team for the future. He has the unenviable task of having to meet with and convince players who want to switch, but are apprehensive. He has to be the one to assuage their fears and face the wrath of Nigerian football fans when he fails in that bid. He could have chosen the path his predecessors chose, which was to do nothing about improving and widening the talent pool.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm
PINNICK DOES NOT BOTHER TO LOOK. He doesn't rate them. We should be in the business of exporting football talent... our greatest NATIONAL ASSET is OUR PEOPLE.

The onus of someone placed in a position of leadership is NOT to take the easy road that is not sustainable.
Story! Where the heck are they?
Also, who has time, in this day and age, to be waiting around to 'polish' a player that can be hit or miss?
Dude, the stakes are way too high to be playing 'hit or miss' for these clubs (and in the case of Nigerian players, its more 'miss' than 'hit'). That's why the major clubs, for example, would rather have younger products who have growth potential - again, another key reason clubs recruit from Nigeria Academies (more credible with age of their products) than the National League (history of age falsification).
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm If folks are marveling at Eberechi Eze, Sako, Olise, etc, we should be telling them we have more like that, that needs polishing. Not waiting for others to groom and then we poach them... and folks not caring about growing our base.

We have more Naijarians living in Naijaria than outside Naijaria, playing a sport that is the primary sport of Naijarians. And we have an NFF leadership that doesn't believe in those Naijarians, and like you, I suspect don't rate Naijarian footballers in Naijaria.
This directly contradicts your argument about 'knowledge transfer'.
How is that knowledge supposed to be transferred, if those who have had the knowledge transferred to them (via the Quota system some have advocated for) hop on the earliest next train out of town?
You just helped confirm the point that forcing local players into the National team is a waste of time and resources - no intrinsic benefit to HB players.
Also, as a spectator during the Summer series Cup last here in Houston, I learnt a TON from watching the USWNT execute tactics and strategies and also, watch and learn from their warm up routine. I was able to apply such learnings to the team I coach, to great success. Didn't have to be a part of the squad to observe and learn that.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Footballers when given an opportunity should be able to move on to greener pastures. That is the aim. Upward mobility. They are not supposed to remain local. They are supposed to use the platform the National team presents to them to seek greener pastures and for someone else to replace them. It should be a conveyor belt of some sort... a "Next man up". They are not supposed to toil in backwater leagues before making it bigtime...

It is unfortunate that you fail to see the impact of knowledge transfer just by being exposed to best practices that other players have been exposed to... something as simple as warm-up routines, how to study or apply instructions...
Like I stated earlier, you don't have 'more Sakas of the world' in Nigeria. If they existed, they would have since been picked up by an independent academy in Nigeria and 'processed' for upward mobility to a club in Europe.
Nigerians really need to stop kidding themselves and stop trying to 'see' things that don't exist.
Cellular wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm Yes, football is a multi-billion dollar business. That is the more reason we have to show the world that we have more Sakas of the world in Naijaria waiting for an opportunity.

What is missing is the willpower by an NFF leadership willing to look inwards.
:clap: :clap: :clap: Well put
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