WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Sunset »

Enugu II wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:22 am
Sunset wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:57 pm
Enugu II wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:00 pm
Orion wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:32 pm
Sunset wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:00 pm Well we can't forget the AFCON is a CAF competition and not a WAFU one so representation of the continent is important, even then the WAFU region have twice (4 out of 12) as many spots in the tournament than any other region competing in it. The thing about these youth teams is you can have a good reputation and still have a set underperform like how Osimhen's (Chukwueze, Nwakali, etc) got knocked out by Sudan in the (old format) qualifiers for the 2017 edition. Nothing is ever guaranteed.

I do think WAFU could be a lot more creative with their qualifiers in particular though, if it were structured better it would probably be a more exciting than the AFCON itself.
Nigeria should not be playing Ghana or even CIV until the African U20 competition itself. Those countries should have been seeded based on how they've performed in youth competitions in the past.
Orion,

Blame the likes of Pinnick and co who sold out their strengths for temporary political gain and silver. If you check the threads, I pointed this out at the onset when Hayatou was overthrown and replaced. I was not in support of Hayatou but I was shocked at the collapse of the likes of Pinnick in succumbing to a monumental defeat at the hands of East and Central Africans who imposed this zoning upon the election of Ahmad Ahmad.
It seems like you're both taking these youth tournaments a bit too seriously if you ask me, let's not forget the purpose of them in the first place which is development. This idea of seeding teams would only make sense at the senior national/club level as there's some form of continuity there while the difference between youth teams can be night and day.
Sunset,

Development does not abhor having the best players/teams get to play the best teams from other continents. What the current system does is prevent opportunity for the four or so best African youth teams to compete at the global level. Note, that teams are often disbanded after elimination. Have you noticed the almost corresponding decline of Ghana and Nigeria with the introduction of this new system. Note also how Africa has also declined. Yet, even with the introduction of ways to monitor age cheating, these African teams performed creditably before the zoning came into place.
My question remains what makes them the best at a particular period of time? It can't be based on past reputation is my point and the only way you can prove you're the best is by beating the best. And if you can't do that it's simply better luck next time. As that's part of the game, you win some you lose some

This new system only started in the 2021 edition that Ghana won so that's too little a sample size to say the decline is due to that change.
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

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Sunset wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:24 pm I must be missing something because the whole post is wrt youth teams. The WAFU qualifiers are far from perfect, personally it would've made more sense to either stage a full WAFU cup with all the teams competing or just run a point based qualifier. But it has actually revived the WAFU region in terms of youth tournament activities, if not for this shift they would see no need in running these kind of competitions on a yearly basis like they do in other regions. I'm also sure that WAFU being the region with the most teams (16) in CAF played a role in them getting the 4 spots.

I said it's an assumption to think because our previous youth teams did well that the same would be the case with future sets, as our current system doesn't give me that kind of confidence. Historic data does hold some weight but if we're going to do that should we also factor in our long history of age cheating that enabled a lot of this success? This is what I mean when I say we take these competitions too seriously. The same teams that can potentially meet in the finals could also potentially not make it out of the group stages which is why I don't have time for hypotheticals.
OK, so you're saying every two years, every country starts from a level playing field in terms of perceived strength, and the historical data does not matter in youth competitions as the teams are always new. You're entitled to that opinion, which I disagree with.

IMO, the historical data does matter and should influence some kind of seeding system. We have seen a level of consistency in the last 40+ yrs of mostly West African and North African winners so the data shows it is not a random, up in the air thing every two years. If we were seeing random winners from different regions every two years, we could surmise that all teams are level at the start of each campaign, but that is not the case.

If historical data does not matter in youth competitions, there would be no seeding in the U20 World Cup draw itself. But we have concrete evidence that there is indeed seeding in youth competitions, just as I suggested. So historic data does matter. Case closed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_FIFA_U-20_World_Cup
while the remaining teams were seeded into their respective pots based on their results in the last five FIFA U-20 World Cups (more recent tournaments weighted more heavily), with bonus points awarded to confederation champions.
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Enugu II »

Sunset

True but only to the extent that you are only seeking one best team. Unfortunately,
that is not the case. The case is that you are seeking a FEW best teams which necessitates coming up with a formula that ensures that those FEW are the best. That is simply not the case with this formula. Think for one moment how reams get to the World Cup finals. Why is it it that some regions have more places in the final than others? Those are based on historical performance not so? How is historical performance inputed in the African system that we are discussing here? Is it irrelevant?

Sunset, go back and think about the reason why this system came into place. Atleast the publicly stated reason. None of those have been put up here so far. Here it is -- cost! Yet you have not mentioned it. CAF under Ahmad claimed travel costs were prohibitive and argued that because of this youth and women competitions that both generate less revenue should be played geographically to save costs. It had little to do with competitiveness. In essence, competitiveness was not important to CAF.

With the risk of widening this conversation, there has been pressure to regionalize the NPFL for same travel cost issues. What would your take be in that case?

Sunset wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:58 am
Enugu II wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:22 am
Sunset wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:57 pm
Enugu II wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:00 pm
Orion wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:32 pm
Sunset wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:00 pm Well we can't forget the AFCON is a CAF competition and not a WAFU one so representation of the continent is important, even then the WAFU region have twice (4 out of 12) as many spots in the tournament than any other region competing in it. The thing about these youth teams is you can have a good reputation and still have a set underperform like how Osimhen's (Chukwueze, Nwakali, etc) got knocked out by Sudan in the (old format) qualifiers for the 2017 edition. Nothing is ever guaranteed.

I do think WAFU could be a lot more creative with their qualifiers in particular though, if it were structured better it would probably be a more exciting than the AFCON itself.
Nigeria should not be playing Ghana or even CIV until the African U20 competition itself. Those countries should have been seeded based on how they've performed in youth competitions in the past.
Orion,

Blame the likes of Pinnick and co who sold out their strengths for temporary political gain and silver. If you check the threads, I pointed this out at the onset when Hayatou was overthrown and replaced. I was not in support of Hayatou but I was shocked at the collapse of the likes of Pinnick in succumbing to a monumental defeat at the hands of East and Central Africans who imposed this zoning upon the election of Ahmad Ahmad.
It seems like you're both taking these youth tournaments a bit too seriously if you ask me, let's not forget the purpose of them in the first place which is development. This idea of seeding teams would only make sense at the senior national/club level as there's some form of continuity there while the difference between youth teams can be night and day.
Sunset,

Development does not abhor having the best players/teams get to play the best teams from other continents. What the current system does is prevent opportunity for the four or so best African youth teams to compete at the global level. Note, that teams are often disbanded after elimination. Have you noticed the almost corresponding decline of Ghana and Nigeria with the introduction of this new system. Note also how Africa has also declined. Yet, even with the introduction of ways to monitor age cheating, these African teams performed creditably before the zoning came into place.
My question remains what makes them the best at a particular period of time? It can't be based on past reputation is my point and the only way you can prove you're the best is by beating the best. And if you can't do that it's simply better luck next time. As that's part of the game, you win some you lose some

This new system only started in the 2021 edition that Ghana won so that's too little a sample size to say the decline is due to that change.
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Lolly »

Final is today
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Sunset »

Orion wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:12 am
Sunset wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:24 pm I must be missing something because the whole post is wrt youth teams. The WAFU qualifiers are far from perfect, personally it would've made more sense to either stage a full WAFU cup with all the teams competing or just run a point based qualifier. But it has actually revived the WAFU region in terms of youth tournament activities, if not for this shift they would see no need in running these kind of competitions on a yearly basis like they do in other regions. I'm also sure that WAFU being the region with the most teams (16) in CAF played a role in them getting the 4 spots.

I said it's an assumption to think because our previous youth teams did well that the same would be the case with future sets, as our current system doesn't give me that kind of confidence. Historic data does hold some weight but if we're going to do that should we also factor in our long history of age cheating that enabled a lot of this success? This is what I mean when I say we take these competitions too seriously. The same teams that can potentially meet in the finals could also potentially not make it out of the group stages which is why I don't have time for hypotheticals.
OK, so you're saying every two years, every country starts from a level playing field in terms of perceived strength, and the historic data does not matter in youth competitions as the teams are always new. You're entitled to that opinion, which I disagree with.

IMO, the historic data does matter and should influence some kind of seeding system. We have seen a level of consistency in the last 40+ yrs of mostly West African and North African winners so the data shows it is not a random, up in the air thing every two years. If we were seeing random winners from different regions every two years, we could surmise that all teams are level at the start of each campaign, but that is not the case.

If historic data does not matter in youth competitions, there would be no seeding in the U20 World Cup draw itself. But we have concrete evidence that there is indeed seeding in youth competitions, just as I suggested. So historic data does matter. Case closed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_FIFA_U-20_World_Cup
while the remaining teams were seeded into their respective pots based on their results in the last five FIFA U-20 World Cups (more recent tournaments weighted more heavily), with bonus points awarded to confederation champions.
That's not what i'm saying, It's nothing about there being a level playing field every two years, all i'm saying is it's not a sure bet that I can confidently bank on, the difference between one set and the next can be very volatile regardless of reputation. Just look at how we went from back to back World Champions at the U17 level to the next set getting knocked out by Niger in the AFCON qualifiers.
At least with this the gap is removed from every two years to every year we're expected a standing team which is far better for their development. And honestly if one is not even top 4 in West Africa what are their chances at the international level? That's why I don't buy it one bit.

I don't know where you think i'm debating you on the importance of historic data but as I said lets not act like it isn't a well-known FACT that we have been banned by FIFA after getting caught age-cheating, something that is the biggest talking point when camp is open for these teams. One of the reasons why FIFA introduced the MRI tests at the U17 level is to at least manage this problem that's not exclusive to Africa, but is where it was most taken advantage of particularly by West Africans. This in essence means this data in particular is somewhat corrupted on face value. And this emphasis on "who wins what" is part of the problem.
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

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Lolly wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 1:55 pmFinal is today
yep, just checked on the link provide by Gotti

8.30pm kickoff Naija time probably

https://elevensports.com/en/zonal/west- ... e-b-7ne8q1
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

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Sunset wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:37 pm That's not what i'm saying, It's nothing about there being a level playing field every two years, all i'm saying is it's not a sure bet that I can confidently bank on, the difference between one set and the next can be very volatile regardless of reputation. Just look at how we went from back to back World Champions at the U17 level to the next set getting knocked out by Niger in the AFCON qualifiers.
At least with this the gap is removed from every two years to every year we're expected a standing team which is far better for their development. And honestly if one is not even top 4 in West Africa what are their chances at the international level? That's why I don't buy it one bit.

I don't know where you think i'm debating you on the importance of historic data but as I said lets not act like it isn't a well-known FACT that we have been banned by FIFA after getting caught age-cheating, something that is the biggest talking point when camp is open for these teams. One of the reasons why FIFA introduced the MRI tests at the U17 level is to at least manage this problem that's not exclusive to Africa, but is where it was most taken advantage of particularly by West Africans. This in essence means this data in particular is somewhat corrupted on face value. And this emphasis on "who wins what" is part of the problem.
And you're assuming the other African nations are not cheating as well? South Africa, Kenya, Senegal, Ghana, Cameroon, Guinea, etc have all been exposed/punished for age cheating too. So age cheating is a moot point as it's a level playing field in that department as far as I'm concerned.

FIFA that invented the competition is using a seeding system based on historical data. That pretty much proves my point.

If CAF comes out to say they've made it regional because of "age cheating", let them explain to us how they arrived at that conclusion and based on what data.
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Sunset »

But the West African qualifiers are still sending their 4 best teams? Is that not enough or you think we need more? The process is simple you win your games in your region you get to the next stage. Maybe i'm just not one to whine about our youth players getting the chance to face quality opponents.

If we're talking about the World Cup, size of the region plays a huge part because if it were just by performance the South American region would have way more than 4 automatic spots as we speak, but that would also mean that over half the teams in their confederation would go to the World cup. Compare this to Europe's 13 spots who have way more countries and perform at a similar level but because they're afforded more representation, they would of course edge it. It's no different to the West African influence in Africa, the sheer numbers along with the quality would lead to these results, which is why we have twice as many spots as any other region, but much like the World Cup there is still a need for proper representation across the different regions, as long as they're the "best" coming from there. There's a reason why the next World cup is going to be expanded.

Maybe I assumed we all knew money played a part in it as a lot of the time especially with youth qualifiers there were an alarming rate of walkovers due to the travel cost and expenses they'd have to incur going through with them. Bare in mind not every FA is as privileged as ours, which is why I don't see a problem with CAF looking out for the smaller countries in that regard, let them prove their quality at that stage in a more cost effective manner. Funny thing is a similar method could be applied with the current West African club scene which have been on a steady decline for the past decade now, as it's only Horroya that have shown some level of consistency. And also what would be the whole point of the regions if they weren't used for such things at the minor levels?

I'd have no problem with the regionalizing of the NPFL as long as it's settled by a playoff system between the best and the same for those facing relegation, it's the best decider when dealing with the peculiarities that come with the league where teams often travel 10+ hours for anaway fixture.
Enugu II wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:58 am Sunset

True but only to the extent that you are only seeking one best team. Unfortunately,
that is not the case. The case is that you are seeking a FEW best teams which necessitates coming up with a formula that ensures that those FEW are the best. That is simply not the case with this formula. Think for one moment how reams get to the World Cup finals. Why is it it that some regions have more places in the final than others? Those are based on historical performance not so? How is historical performance inputed in the African system that we are discussing here? Is it irrelevant?

Sunset, go back and think about the reason why this system came into place. Atleast the publicly stated reason. None of those have been put up here so far. Here it is -- cost! Yet you have not mentioned it. CAF under Ahmad claimed travel costs were prohibitive and argued that because of this youth and women competitions that both generate less revenue should be played geographically to save costs. It had little to do with competitiveness. In essence, competitiveness was not important to CAF.

With the risk of widening this conversation, there has been pressure to regionalize the NPFL for same travel cost issues. What would your take be in that case?

Sunset wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:58 am
Enugu II wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:22 am
Sunset wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:57 pm
Enugu II wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:00 pm
Orion wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:32 pm
Sunset wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:00 pm Well we can't forget the AFCON is a CAF competition and not a WAFU one so representation of the continent is important, even then the WAFU region have twice (4 out of 12) as many spots in the tournament than any other region competing in it. The thing about these youth teams is you can have a good reputation and still have a set underperform like how Osimhen's (Chukwueze, Nwakali, etc) got knocked out by Sudan in the (old format) qualifiers for the 2017 edition. Nothing is ever guaranteed.

I do think WAFU could be a lot more creative with their qualifiers in particular though, if it were structured better it would probably be a more exciting than the AFCON itself.
Nigeria should not be playing Ghana or even CIV until the African U20 competition itself. Those countries should have been seeded based on how they've performed in youth competitions in the past.
Orion,

Blame the likes of Pinnick and co who sold out their strengths for temporary political gain and silver. If you check the threads, I pointed this out at the onset when Hayatou was overthrown and replaced. I was not in support of Hayatou but I was shocked at the collapse of the likes of Pinnick in succumbing to a monumental defeat at the hands of East and Central Africans who imposed this zoning upon the election of Ahmad Ahmad.
It seems like you're both taking these youth tournaments a bit too seriously if you ask me, let's not forget the purpose of them in the first place which is development. This idea of seeding teams would only make sense at the senior national/club level as there's some form of continuity there while the difference between youth teams can be night and day.
Sunset,

Development does not abhor having the best players/teams get to play the best teams from other continents. What the current system does is prevent opportunity for the four or so best African youth teams to compete at the global level. Note, that teams are often disbanded after elimination. Have you noticed the almost corresponding decline of Ghana and Nigeria with the introduction of this new system. Note also how Africa has also declined. Yet, even with the introduction of ways to monitor age cheating, these African teams performed creditably before the zoning came into place.
My question remains what makes them the best at a particular period of time? It can't be based on past reputation is my point and the only way you can prove you're the best is by beating the best. And if you can't do that it's simply better luck next time. As that's part of the game, you win some you lose some

This new system only started in the 2021 edition that Ghana won so that's too little a sample size to say the decline is due to that change.
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Sunset »

Orion wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:12 pm
Sunset wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:37 pm That's not what i'm saying, It's nothing about there being a level playing field every two years, all i'm saying is it's not a sure bet that I can confidently bank on, the difference between one set and the next can be very volatile regardless of reputation. Just look at how we went from back to back World Champions at the U17 level to the next set getting knocked out by Niger in the AFCON qualifiers.
At least with this the gap is removed from every two years to every year we're expected a standing team which is far better for their development. And honestly if one is not even top 4 in West Africa what are their chances at the international level? That's why I don't buy it one bit.

I don't know where you think i'm debating you on the importance of historic data but as I said lets not act like it isn't a well-known FACT that we have been banned by FIFA after getting caught age-cheating, something that is the biggest talking point when camp is open for these teams. One of the reasons why FIFA introduced the MRI tests at the U17 level is to at least manage this problem that's not exclusive to Africa, but is where it was most taken advantage of particularly by West Africans. This in essence means this data in particular is somewhat corrupted on face value. And this emphasis on "who wins what" is part of the problem.
And you're assuming the other African nations are not cheating as well? South Africa, Kenya, Senegal, Ghana, Cameroon, Guinea, etc have all been exposed/punished for age cheating too. So age cheating is a moot point as it's a level playing field in that department as far as I'm concerned.

FIFA that invented the competition is using a seeding system based on historical data. That pretty much proves my point.

If CAF comes out to say they've made it regional because of "age cheating", let them explain to us how they arrived at that conclusion and based on what data.
Read!! :roll:
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Orion »

Sunset wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:51 pm
Orion wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:12 pm
Sunset wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:37 pm That's not what i'm saying, It's nothing about there being a level playing field every two years, all i'm saying is it's not a sure bet that I can confidently bank on, the difference between one set and the next can be very volatile regardless of reputation. Just look at how we went from back to back World Champions at the U17 level to the next set getting knocked out by Niger in the AFCON qualifiers.
At least with this the gap is removed from every two years to every year we're expected a standing team which is far better for their development. And honestly if one is not even top 4 in West Africa what are their chances at the international level? That's why I don't buy it one bit.

I don't know where you think i'm debating you on the importance of historic data but as I said lets not act like it isn't a well-known FACT that we have been banned by FIFA after getting caught age-cheating, something that is the biggest talking point when camp is open for these teams. One of the reasons why FIFA introduced the MRI tests at the U17 level is to at least manage this problem that's not exclusive to Africa, but is where it was most taken advantage of particularly by West Africans. This in essence means this data in particular is somewhat corrupted on face value. And this emphasis on "who wins what" is part of the problem.
And you're assuming the other African nations are not cheating as well? South Africa, Kenya, Senegal, Ghana, Cameroon, Guinea, etc have all been exposed/punished for age cheating too. So age cheating is a moot point as it's a level playing field in that department as far as I'm concerned.

FIFA that invented the competition is using a seeding system based on historical data. That pretty much proves my point.

If CAF comes out to say they've made it regional because of "age cheating", let them explain to us how they arrived at that conclusion and based on what data.
Read!! :roll:
That's just your opinion and no data supports that.

The whole Kenyan 2003 U17 team was disbanded and disqualified for age cheating right in the middle of a qualifying competition. That has never happened to Nigeria.

Regarding South Africa, see the links below.
South African journalist Thomas Kwenaite uncovered several "age-cheats" representing South Africa who participated in an Under-15 age group tournament hosted in France. The captain of that side was a 24-year-old third-year University student from Port Elizabeth.[5] After revealing the age of the player, the player's father took Kwenaite to the South African press ombudsman for "slander" before withdrawing his complaint after it was found that school records show that the player would have started school aged 2 years old. Kwenaite also claims that he was told that he was "unpatriotic" for reporting the story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_fraud ... ite_note-8
JOHANNESBURG – Age-cheating is not a new phenomenon in South African football, in fact, it still seems to be rife in the sport.

In the past, many players have had to pay the price for choosing to cut corners.

In South Africa, some development structures seem to be still grappling with age cheats.

https://www.enca.com/sport/soccer/age-c ... a-football
Regardless, this is beside the point. As far as I'm aware, CAF did not say they made this competition regional due to age cheating. If they have said that, then please post the evidence here. Thanks.
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Sunset »

[tweet][/tweet] :oops:
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by bret- hart »

How we lost to this dead country is beyond me. Thunder fire Egu :curse:
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Re: WAFU B U20: NIGERIA 2 v CIV 1 (AET)

Post by Sunset »

bret- hart wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:55 pm How we lost to this dead country is beyond me. Thunder fire Egu :curse:
That's their U20's oh :lol:

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