IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by lacidi »

vancity eagle wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:12 pm Very slack defending almost cost Ghana today. Do you see what I'm talking about ?

We try to get the job done with minimal effort. Defenders ball watching as Korea WANTED IT MORE, on those 2 crosses and goals.

You cannot be slack at this level.
What of Serbia?
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Damunk »

scholl wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:29 pm
amafolas wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:57 pm
Robotnik wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:07 pm It doesn't matter what it is. Like I have always said, if your players cannot trap ball there is only so far the team can go.. We do not have players with close first touch and good ball control.
wrong. you can go a long way even with players of limited talent, by being super organized, being well conditioned, playing a style that suits your talent, and playing with heart. The ceiling for this approach is a world cup semi.
yes at the end of the day talent speaks.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Damunk »

deanotito wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:55 pm
amafolas wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:57 pm
Robotnik wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:07 pm It doesn't matter what it is. Like I have always said, if your players cannot trap ball there is only so far the team can go.. We do not have players with close first touch and good ball control.
wrong. you can go a long way even with players of limited talent, by being super organized, being well conditioned, playing a style that suits your talent, and playing with heart. The ceiling for this approach is a world cup semi.
yes at the end of the day talent speaks.
This is nonsense. Listen to Robotnik. What many of you don’t seem to understand well is the difference between chance occurrences and likely outcomes.

If you don’t have quality (in any area of life), you’re not going very far against those that do
. Player no sabi trap ball and your talking organization and “heart”. Heart is evenly distributed. Talent is not
:agree: :agree: :agree:
Although I believe amafolas is saying that talent (quality) without ‘heart’ is equally nothing.
There has to be optimization of both for any achievable results.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by deanotito »

vancity eagle wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:12 pm Very slack defending almost cost Ghana today. Do you see what I'm talking about ?

We try to get the job done with minimal effort. Defenders ball watching as Korea WANTED IT MORE, on those 2 crosses and goals.

You cannot be slack at this level.
No, we don’t see what you’re saying. Cause your reasoning is constantly changing. What’s the cause of slack defending? Heart? Defensive organization/scheme, talent?

If you don’t answer that, then you’re simply trying to cover your bases and are not really saying anything in particular.

And as Damunk asked, what about Serbia?
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by vancity eagle »

deanotito wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:07 am
vancity eagle wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:12 pm Very slack defending almost cost Ghana today. Do you see what I'm talking about ?

We try to get the job done with minimal effort. Defenders ball watching as Korea WANTED IT MORE, on those 2 crosses and goals.

You cannot be slack at this level.
No, we don’t see what you’re saying. Cause your reasoning is constantly changing. What’s the cause of slack defending? Heart? Defensive organization/scheme, talent?

If you don’t answer that, then you’re simply trying to cover your bases and are not really saying anything in particular.

And as Damunk asked, what about Serbia?
What about Serbia ?

Yeah it was the same thing. It's not that ONLY Africans do it. It's that they seem to do it MORE OFTEN than others.

But actually 2 of those Cameroon goals were very well executed. Inch perfect.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by wiseone »

"African players are lazy and lack determination": Laidouni, Amrabat, Hakimi, Aboubakar and others say hi.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by deanotito »

Highest African Ranked Teams pre-World Cup
1. Senegal
2. Morocco


African Teams that made the second round:
1. Senegal
2. Morocco

Quality is the biggest determinant of success. Not “heart”
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Enugu II »

deanotito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:01 am Highest African Ranked Teams pre-World Cup
1. Senegal
2. Morocco


African Teams that made the second round:
1. Senegal
2. Morocco

Quality is the biggest determinant of success. Not “heart”
Dean,

Take it easy with the above. Note that while Senegal's ranking, compared to group counterparts led to a predictable qualification. That was not the case with Morocco! By the ranking, Morocco would not have moved on given that two other teams in its group were higher ranked. Thus, using the African ranking in isolation needs further explanation to support the point you attempt to make.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by deanotito »

Enugu II wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:39 am
deanotito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:01 am Highest African Ranked Teams pre-World Cup
1. Senegal
2. Morocco


African Teams that made the second round:
1. Senegal
2. Morocco

Quality is the biggest determinant of success. Not “heart”
Dean,

Take it easy with the above. Note that while Senegal's ranking, compared to group counterparts led to a predictable qualification. That was not the case with Morocco! By the ranking, Morocco would not have moved on given that two other teams in its group were higher ranked. Thus, using the African ranking in isolation needs further explanation to support the point you attempt to make.
Chief, in the context of this thread, the premise was that African teams lose because they don’t have “heart”. Some of us retorted that heart was not the issue. Quality was. There would be statistical anomalies, but in general, the best performing teams will be the best quality teams.

When adjusted for our ranking, Nigeria is a 1st-2nd round team. And guess what? Those are the results we have gotten

The only year we really “underperformed” was 1994. The rest, we performed to our level
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by goke313 »

wiseone wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:11 pm "African players are lazy and lack determination": Laidouni, Amrabat, Hakimi, Aboubakar and others say hi.
Obviously not all. But players who lack killer instinct and awareness like Aboubakar. Scoring an important goal, wasting time, earning a red card, laughing with the ref as if his team doesn't have a match to win
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Robotnik »

Heart
Tactical Discipline and Organization
Player Quality

Optimize these parameters and your nearly there.

Morocco says Hi
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Enyi »

The truth is that heart and determination will only get u so far, the rest is quality…

Come QF and onwards…..only the quality teams survive…

Occasionally, add a technically astute manager and you may, just may punch above ur weight (that’s what SE needs)
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Enugu II »

Enyi wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:09 am The truth is that heart and determination will only get u so far, the rest is quality…

Come QF and onwards…..only the quality teams survive…

Occasionally, add a technically astute manager and you may, just may punch above ur weight (that’s what SE needs)

FALSE. I assume by quality you are thinking of players in the Top 5 leagues? Not so. If so, you are wrong. Form is always temporal. While quality (for whatever constitutes it) is important, so are other factors, some of which no one can measure as we speak because they are largely psychological and based on chance. If football was that predictable, why even play it? We may as well play them back as recorded movies.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by deanotito »

Robotnik wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:33 pm Heart
Tactical Discipline and Organization
Player Quality

Optimize these parameters and your nearly there.

Morocco says Hi
Heart is useless. Everybody has or can have it. So it’s not a distinguishing factor at the end of the day. Player Quality is the hardest to get and for African teams, very hard. Tactical Discipline & Organization is somewhat difficult but you can buy the personnel that trains your team to be better at that.

Let’s take a simpler sport so some of you can understand what we are saying. There is no one that runs in the 100m final that doesn’t have heart. No one. Everybody wants to win. While times may fluctuate throughout the season, the 10th fastest runner in the year doesn’t just spring up and beat Usain Bolt. Bolt would sometimes run like he wasn’t trying. Many times, he’d pull up well before the finish line and look like he’s taunting his opponents who look 3 meters behind him. That is Quality!

Morocco says what? I thought the author said African teams don’t do well cause they don’t have heart? So…Morocco says what?

The real “Heart” work happens well before the tournament/race. It shows up in your dedication to get better. If we enter a tournament with players that need 3 touches to bring a long ball under control and we match them up against players that use 1 touch and the ball answers to their breath, it will show in the results.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Enyi »

Enugu II wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:27 pm
Enyi wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:09 am The truth is that heart and determination will only get u so far, the rest is quality…

Come QF and onwards…..only the quality teams survive…

Occasionally, add a technically astute manager and you may, just may punch above ur weight (that’s what SE needs)

FALSE. I assume by quality you are thinking of players in the Top 5 leagues? Not so. If so, you are wrong. Form is always temporal. While quality (for whatever constitutes it) is important, so are other factors, some of which no one can measure as we speak because they are largely psychological and based on chance. If football was that predictable, why even play it? We may as well play them back as recorded movies.
Bro, the truth is that football IS PREDICTABLE…

Before the WC, if I asked the group to give me 3 teams that will likely make the QF….

EVERY LIST WILL INCLUDE: BRAZIL, FRANCE, ARGENTINA

That’s not chance….they have the best players with the best team spine

Now with an astute manager and some luck, u may get Morrocco…ONCE IN A WHILE…..

Do u think Man City keeps wining the premier league based on chance?

Please don’t type Leicester - cos that’s not chance that’s a well assembled team Spine….

Kasper, Huth, Kante, Vardy…with a great supporting act…Mayrez. Morgan, Chilwell, drinkwater etc

U have a great team, CHANCES ARE you will win if you prepare well
The stupid neither forgive nor forget- the smart forgive- but never forget" -Thomas Szasz.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-Martin Luther King- Jr.

“Our Audacity to rise from our losses is what makes Nigerian the number one footballing nation in Africa - Stephen Keshi RIP

Those who don't take decisions never make mistakes."..........
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Enyi »

Synopsis wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:30 pm
Enugu II wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:06 pm
amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm the 1998 is the most overrated team in nigerian history. one fluke win over Spain, and people think they are the $#%. little wonder Denmark destroyed us. and we lost to Paraguay too.
Amafolas

You started with a good point but when you add the loss to Paraguay, I have to shake my head. The Paraguay game? Where Nigeria emptied the bench? Or did I miss something?
Nigeria needs to stop benching our players after winning two games. It has never worked for us.
Matey, ur right but…. I won’t mind that if we qualify…let’s start with qualifying
The stupid neither forgive nor forget- the smart forgive- but never forget" -Thomas Szasz.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity."
-Martin Luther King- Jr.

“Our Audacity to rise from our losses is what makes Nigerian the number one footballing nation in Africa - Stephen Keshi RIP

Those who don't take decisions never make mistakes."..........
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Orion »

deanotito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:13 am
Enugu II wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:39 am
deanotito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:01 am Highest African Ranked Teams pre-World Cup
1. Senegal
2. Morocco


African Teams that made the second round:
1. Senegal
2. Morocco

Quality is the biggest determinant of success. Not “heart”
Dean,

Take it easy with the above. Note that while Senegal's ranking, compared to group counterparts led to a predictable qualification. That was not the case with Morocco! By the ranking, Morocco would not have moved on given that two other teams in its group were higher ranked. Thus, using the African ranking in isolation needs further explanation to support the point you attempt to make.
Chief, in the context of this thread, the premise was that African teams lose because they don’t have “heart”. Some of us retorted that heart was not the issue. Quality was. There would be statistical anomalies, but in general, the best performing teams will be the best quality teams.

When adjusted for our ranking, Nigeria is a 1st-2nd round team. And guess what? Those are the results we have gotten

The only year we really “underperformed” was 1994. The rest, we performed to our level
Exactly. Some of us have been trying to drum this into folks here for like ever. Yes, there would be anomalies, like Morocco currently, but on the whole, teams perform according to their ranking.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by vancity eagle »

Orion wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:56 am
deanotito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:13 am
Enugu II wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:39 am
deanotito wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:01 am Highest African Ranked Teams pre-World Cup
1. Senegal
2. Morocco


African Teams that made the second round:
1. Senegal
2. Morocco

Quality is the biggest determinant of success. Not “heart”
Dean,

Take it easy with the above. Note that while Senegal's ranking, compared to group counterparts led to a predictable qualification. That was not the case with Morocco! By the ranking, Morocco would not have moved on given that two other teams in its group were higher ranked. Thus, using the African ranking in isolation needs further explanation to support the point you attempt to make.
Chief, in the context of this thread, the premise was that African teams lose because they don’t have “heart”. Some of us retorted that heart was not the issue. Quality was. There would be statistical anomalies, but in general, the best performing teams will be the best quality teams.

When adjusted for our ranking, Nigeria is a 1st-2nd round team. And guess what? Those are the results we have gotten

The only year we really “underperformed” was 1994. The rest, we performed to our level
Exactly. Some of us have been trying to drum this into folks here for like ever. Yes, there would be anomalies, like Morocco currently, but on the whole, teams perform according to their ranking.
But you are assuming those "rankings" are even accurate, which they clearly are not.

Those rankings discriminate against African teams and exaggerate the strength of other sides.

Again people have misconstrued what I am saying.

It isn't that "heart" is the only thing for success, it's that more often than not, what has let African teams down IS NOT QUALITY, but lack of 100% effort or even focus at key moments.

Failure from an African perspective is far more attributed to that than lack of quality.

Was it lack of quality that made us lose to Italy in the final seconds of full time?

Did Turkey have more quality than Senegal in 2002 ?

Did Greece have more quality than CIV in 2014 ?

Was lack of quality why Senegal failed to get a draw against Colombia in 2018 ?

There is a pattern here.

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