IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Bigpokey24 »

Pork, who eats swine? My goodness if you are still eating that , then you must stop . This is why you are ashamed to tell CE your waist or pants size. I am very sure when you try and use a belt , this thing no dey past the first hole. that is why nah tradition outfits you dey wear . the rope wey dem use for the outfit is one of the best inventions you've ever experienced .
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Calculator »

Bigpokey24 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:33 am
Calculator wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:27 am
Interesting you know me and what I can do. But I can assure you that running 3 miles during a football game has never been an issue for me. The level I've played the game and where it took me is not necessary for me to have an opinion.
[/quote

I don't know you and it's by chance i was able to read such a very unintelligent comment with zero critical thinking applied to it from you. I have no intentions of getting to know you at all , real talk.

You claim you were an athlete or you played the game, no so called athlete would call a professional athlete lazy. My goodness... you call a man who earns a living chasing a ball lazy . Ok oooo
Just because I refuse to respond like a woman on her period like you often do doesn’t mean my opinion isn’t valid! When I compare the way Canada goes all out to win and control a game or Japan fighting for every procession, I can say African teams are lackadaisical in their approach to the game than the former. I’m comparing apples to apples. You on the other hand blindly argue that because I’m not playing at that level, my opinion of a professional being lazy is flawed. Stop responding to post like a pregnant woman!
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Bigpokey24 »

Calculator wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:57 pm
Bigpokey24 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:33 am
Calculator wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:27 am
Interesting you know me and what I can do. But I can assure you that running 3 miles during a football game has never been an issue for me. The level I've played the game and where it took me is not necessary for me to have an opinion.
[/quote

I don't know you and it's by chance i was able to read such a very unintelligent comment with zero critical thinking applied to it from you. I have no intentions of getting to know you at all , real talk.

You claim you were an athlete or you played the game, no so called athlete would call a professional athlete lazy. My goodness... you call a man who earns a living chasing a ball lazy . Ok oooo
Just because I refuse to respond like a woman on her period like you often do doesn’t mean my opinion isn’t valid! When I compare the way Canada goes all out to win and control a game or Japan fighting for every procession, I can say African teams are lackadaisical in their approach to the game than the former. I’m comparing apples to apples. You on the other hand blindly argue that because I’m not playing at that level, my opinion of a professional being lazy is flawed. Stop responding to post like a pregnant woman!
You are missing the point. You called professionals Lazy
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by amafolas »

deanotito wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
And when they got to the World Cup, what was the result? Another 2nd round elimination. And the next nations cup? They didn’t even qualify.

For the last 40 years, Nigeria has consistently been one of the best teams at the Afcon. And our numerous bronzes and few golds are evidence of that. And until the Toures came along, we also had the highest profile African players in Europe.

But when it comes to the World Cup, we haven’t cut it in a while. We just don’t measure up, quality wise.

My brother, leave story. Quality is what matters. When you face better quality players, you will falter. “Heart” is nonsense. Everybody has that…or at the very least, can generate it if needed.

I’ve lived in America a long time and have participated in sports at a high level. Forget about the Hollywood depictions of “wanting it bad enough”. Behind all those glorious stories about the triumph of desire lies a very methodical and scientific approach to skill development in sports. When you have that, then you can motivate your players to achieve. Without that, you’re just making noise
I would call Keshi's performance at the world cup respectable. I would even say that team overachieved considering the talent it had. It is the best performance Nigeria has put on the world stage in 21st century, and arguably better than even France 98. That exactly is what heart is. At the end of the talent wins out. But a hardworking, well-organized team with limited talent will do a lot better than whatever rubbish the SE has been doing.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by amafolas »

Orion wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:12 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
Our 2013 team was packed with talent compared to our current team.

Vincent Enyeama <= Kai, we can only dream of having a keeper like this now.
Kenneth Omeruo
Godfrey Oboabona
Elderson Echiéjilé
Efe Ambrose
Mikel Obi
Ogenyi Onazi
Emmanuel Emenike
Victor Moses

Just look at this team. You can see a SOLID spine from back to front. Some of those players faded in later years and were derided here, but in 2013 they were at their peak or close. Even Yobo, who was still a decent player at that time (as he proved at the 2014 WC) couldn't secure a place in that team.

The only players from our current team that'll make the 2013 first team (on current form), are Osimhen and maybe Iwobi.
you guys judge this with hindsight, because the team succeeded. Only Mikel + Enyeama probably deserve to be seen as talent outside of their exploits in 2013/2014 (winning ANC, and decent showing at the WC). All thoe are other names are no different from the talent we have now.
"We will go through the gate. If the gate is closed, we will go over the fence. If the fence is too high, we will pole vault in. If that doesn’t work, we will parachute in. But we are going to get health-care reform passed"
Nancy Pelosi, 01/28/2010 after Scott Brown got elected to Ted Kennedy's senate seat.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by King Futcha »

I'm trying to figure out lazy Morocco just dominated the second ranked team in the world, ran them ragged, while being lazy.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by wanaj0 »

amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 pm
Orion wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:12 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
Our 2013 team was packed with talent compared to our current team.

Vincent Enyeama <= Kai, we can only dream of having a keeper like this now.
Kenneth Omeruo
Godfrey Oboabona
Elderson Echiéjilé
Efe Ambrose
Mikel Obi
Ogenyi Onazi
Emmanuel Emenike
Victor Moses

Just look at this team. You can see a SOLID spine from back to front. Some of those players faded in later years and were derided here, but in 2013 they were at their peak or close. Even Yobo, who was still a decent player at that time (as he proved at the 2014 WC) couldn't secure a place in that team.

The only players from our current team that'll make the 2013 first team (on current form), are Osimhen and maybe Iwobi.
you guys judge this with hindsight, because the team succeeded. Only Mikel + Enyeama probably deserve to be seen as talent outside of their exploits in 2013/2014 (winning ANC, and decent showing at the WC). All thoe are other names are no different from the talent we have now.
Prior to the 2018 WC debacle, we were told of how we have the BEST SE team since ages etc!

In 2013, we were told that Keshi filled the team with JUNKS because he was trying to 'SELL' the players!

God bless Sunday Mbah the elephant slayer
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by deanotito »

amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:38 pm
deanotito wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
And when they got to the World Cup, what was the result? Another 2nd round elimination. And the next nations cup? They didn’t even qualify.

For the last 40 years, Nigeria has consistently been one of the best teams at the Afcon. And our numerous bronzes and few golds are evidence of that. And until the Toures came along, we also had the highest profile African players in Europe.

But when it comes to the World Cup, we haven’t cut it in a while. We just don’t measure up, quality wise.

My brother, leave story. Quality is what matters. When you face better quality players, you will falter. “Heart” is nonsense. Everybody has that…or at the very least, can generate it if needed.

I’ve lived in America a long time and have participated in sports at a high level. Forget about the Hollywood depictions of “wanting it bad enough”. Behind all those glorious stories about the triumph of desire lies a very methodical and scientific approach to skill development in sports. When you have that, then you can motivate your players to achieve. Without that, you’re just making noise
I would call Keshi's performance at the world cup respectable. I would even say that team overachieved considering the talent it had. It is the best performance Nigeria has put on the world stage in 21st century, and arguably better than even France 98. That exactly is what heart is. At the end of the talent wins out. But a hardworking, well-organized team with limited talent will do a lot better than whatever rubbish the SE has been doing.

There are many fallacies in what you’re saying…

1. The author of this thread clearly considers 2nd round eliminations a failure (as do most of us) so I’m not quite sure what you mean by “respectable”

2. The French team that eliminated Nigeria was NOT the French team of 18/22, which you seem to be conflating. That team beat us and then got eliminated in the next round by Germany. So a quarterfinal team beat us. In 94, we were beaten by a finalist. In 98, beaten by another quarter finalist. So yeah, what you consider “respectable”, I consider the same ol same ol failure…again, as the author does.

3. Nigeria has been to the WC 6 times. 3 first round eliminations and 3 2nd round eliminations. Not sure what basis you have to say one elimination was “respectable” but as Jose Mourinho once said, “That’s your football heritage”. And it’s a heritage of failure
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by amafolas »

deanotito wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:04 pm
amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:38 pm
deanotito wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
And when they got to the World Cup, what was the result? Another 2nd round elimination. And the next nations cup? They didn’t even qualify.

For the last 40 years, Nigeria has consistently been one of the best teams at the Afcon. And our numerous bronzes and few golds are evidence of that. And until the Toures came along, we also had the highest profile African players in Europe.

But when it comes to the World Cup, we haven’t cut it in a while. We just don’t measure up, quality wise.

My brother, leave story. Quality is what matters. When you face better quality players, you will falter. “Heart” is nonsense. Everybody has that…or at the very least, can generate it if needed.

I’ve lived in America a long time and have participated in sports at a high level. Forget about the Hollywood depictions of “wanting it bad enough”. Behind all those glorious stories about the triumph of desire lies a very methodical and scientific approach to skill development in sports. When you have that, then you can motivate your players to achieve. Without that, you’re just making noise
I would call Keshi's performance at the world cup respectable. I would even say that team overachieved considering the talent it had. It is the best performance Nigeria has put on the world stage in 21st century, and arguably better than even France 98. That exactly is what heart is. At the end of the talent wins out. But a hardworking, well-organized team with limited talent will do a lot better than whatever rubbish the SE has been doing.

There are many fallacies in what you’re saying…

1. The author of this thread clearly considers 2nd round eliminations a failure (as do most of us) so I’m not quite sure what you mean by “respectable”

2. The French team that eliminated Nigeria was NOT the French team of 18/22, which you seem to be conflating. That team beat us and then got eliminated in the next round by Germany. So a quarterfinal team beat us. In 94, we were beaten by a finalist. In 98, beaten by another quarter finalist. So yeah, what you consider “respectable”, I consider the same ol same ol failure…again, as the author does.

3. Nigeria has been to the WC 6 times. 3 first round eliminations and 3 2nd round eliminations. Not sure what basis you have to say one elimination was “respectable” but as Jose Mourinho once said, “That’s your football heritage”. And it’s a heritage of failure
we don't currently have the talent to be anything other than 2nd round exit. That puts us among top 16 in the world. That legitimately is aboe our talent level. anything there and above is overachieving. maybe someday, when our football infra and overall society is better organized, we can legitimately start viewing semi-finals and above as reasonable expectations.
Getting out of first round is a respectable (didn't say great) showing for nigeria. anything expecting far much more is dreaming
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by amafolas »

the 1998 is the most overrated team in nigerian history. one fluke win over Spain, and people think they are the $#%. little wonder Denmark destroyed us. and we lost to Paraguay too.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Enugu II »

amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm the 1998 is the most overrated team in nigerian history. one fluke win over Spain, and people think they are the $#%. little wonder Denmark destroyed us. and we lost to Paraguay too.
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You started with a good point but when you add the loss to Paraguay, I have to shake my head. The Paraguay game? Where Nigeria emptied the bench? Or did I miss something?
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by BAP »

vancity eagle wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:19 pm Watching this world cup and reflecting on past ones, its become painfully obvious to me what the problem with SE and AFrican teams in general is, and its not what most people think, though I have seen some highlight this before.

It's not the players quality, absolutely not.

SE have the players to make a quarterfinal run, make no mistake about it. So do teams like Senegal, Morocco, even Ghana.

I dont ever want to hear that our players are not good enough. There is a problem with our players, but it isn't that they "aren't good enough"

It also IS NOT the coaching. I am not saying that the coaching cannot improve, because it can, but that is not the MAIN PROBLEM with SE and African teams in general.

The problem is rather a simple one, but it may be a hard one to fix because of what may be the "AFrican mentality"

THE PROBLEM IS THAT AFRICAN PLAYERS ARE LAZY AND LACK DETERMINATION.

YES IVE SAID IT THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH AFRICAN TEAMS AND THAT IS WHAT WILL KEEP HOLDING US BACK.

Just look at how sheer determination elevated Japan over Germany. Was it players or coaching ? No it wasn't, it was sheer determination.

Look at how sheer determination made Holland look like amateurs against the Ecuadorian team today.

Look at the sheer determination of Saudi to play to the end and deny the Argentines.

Look at the sheer determination of the Koreans as they hassled the Uruguayans non stop.

Look at the sheer determination of the US against England. (I am still at halftime but you can see that determination is the difference between these 2 teams)

Look at the sheer determination of Iran who lost their opening match 6-2 to come back and win against Wales.

IT IS ABOUT WHO WANTS IT MORE, AND AFRICANS ARE HAPPY TO JUST GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS. PURE LAZINESS AND BIGMANISM.

We think we have arrived when we haven't.

See how pure laziness and lack of determination cost Senegal against Holland, as players were ball watching and Mendy was rooted to his goal. See how pure laziness from Senegal allowed Qatar to score a goal they should not have scored. The determination from Qatar today, had they half the quality of Senegal, they would have won the match. Who remembers how Senegal in 2018 again were ball watching as they allowed Colombia to score a header. Who remembers how in 2014 Ivory Coast allowed the same Colombia to score on them from a corner. It was a tiny player who got it. Disgraceful.

Our 4-0 loss to Portugal the other day was pure lack of will to run and fight on the pitch. Our loss to Argentina in 2018 again pure lack of will to fight for every minute.

Africans are always standing around losing the people they are supposed to mark, they switch off they dont press, they lack the fight.

I put it to you all here today, that this is the main thing holding AFrican football back, its lack of determination and fight for an entire match.

Why do you think the Asian teams are doing better than us ?

Do they have better players ? NO

Do they have better coaches ? Probably yes slightly, but its not about coaching really

Do they fight harder for a full 90 plus minutes ? YES.


People may not want to hear this but it is the absolute truth.

If we look back to when we won AFCON with Keshi, it came down to that match with CIV, and the reason we won was not because we had better players, not even better tactics or coaching. THE PLAYERS WANTED IT MORE, plain and simple.

We need to only call players who will die on the pitch. Primadonnas and lazy players need to be dumped big time.
And just like that .. Less than 24 hours later your theory gets stood up on its head as Morocco downs Belgium and Costa Rica beats a Gra Gra Japan

Or did Morocco suddenly find the Gra Gra Spirit or did Japan Lose theirs ? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Orion »

amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 pm
Orion wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:12 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
Our 2013 team was packed with talent compared to our current team.

Vincent Enyeama <= Kai, we can only dream of having a keeper like this now.
Kenneth Omeruo
Godfrey Oboabona
Elderson Echiéjilé
Efe Ambrose
Mikel Obi
Ogenyi Onazi
Emmanuel Emenike
Victor Moses

Just look at this team. You can see a SOLID spine from back to front. Some of those players faded in later years and were derided here, but in 2013 they were at their peak or close. Even Yobo, who was still a decent player at that time (as he proved at the 2014 WC) couldn't secure a place in that team.

The only players from our current team that'll make the 2013 first team (on current form), are Osimhen and maybe Iwobi.
you guys judge this with hindsight, because the team succeeded. Only Mikel + Enyeama probably deserve to be seen as talent outside of their exploits in 2013/2014 (winning ANC, and decent showing at the WC). All thoe are other names are no different from the talent we have now.
So how do you account for Yobo and Uche being unable to make the first team as regulars? Yobo is one of our most illustrious players and not an average player by any stretch. In 2013 he was on the decline but still much better than any of the defenders we have today. I'll also choose 2013 Uche over some of the forwards we have today.

The fact that those two players couldn't secure places in that team just goes to show how good the players were then.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Synopsis »

wanaj0 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:23 pm
amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 pm
Orion wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:12 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
Our 2013 team was packed with talent compared to our current team.

Vincent Enyeama <= Kai, we can only dream of having a keeper like this now.
Kenneth Omeruo
Godfrey Oboabona
Elderson Echiéjilé
Efe Ambrose
Mikel Obi
Ogenyi Onazi
Emmanuel Emenike
Victor Moses

Just look at this team. You can see a SOLID spine from back to front. Some of those players faded in later years and were derided here, but in 2013 they were at their peak or close. Even Yobo, who was still a decent player at that time (as he proved at the 2014 WC) couldn't secure a place in that team.

The only players from our current team that'll make the 2013 first team (on current form), are Osimhen and maybe Iwobi.
you guys judge this with hindsight, because the team succeeded. Only Mikel + Enyeama probably deserve to be seen as talent outside of their exploits in 2013/2014 (winning ANC, and decent showing at the WC). All thoe are other names are no different from the talent we have now.
Prior to the 2018 WC debacle, we were told of how we have the BEST SE team since ages etc!

In 2013, we were told that Keshi filled the team with JUNKS because he was trying to 'SELL' the players!

God bless Sunday Mbah the elephant slayer
In 2013-2014, outside of our starting XI, our team was filled with junk. No way Gambo Mohamad should have been in the team. You saw what happened when Onazi left the World Cup match.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Synopsis »

amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 pm
Orion wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:12 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
Our 2013 team was packed with talent compared to our current team.

Vincent Enyeama <= Kai, we can only dream of having a keeper like this now.
Kenneth Omeruo
Godfrey Oboabona
Elderson Echiéjilé
Efe Ambrose
Mikel Obi
Ogenyi Onazi
Emmanuel Emenike
Victor Moses

Just look at this team. You can see a SOLID spine from back to front. Some of those players faded in later years and were derided here, but in 2013 they were at their peak or close. Even Yobo, who was still a decent player at that time (as he proved at the 2014 WC) couldn't secure a place in that team.

The only players from our current team that'll make the 2013 first team (on current form), are Osimhen and maybe Iwobi.
you guys judge this with hindsight, because the team succeeded. Only Mikel + Enyeama probably deserve to be seen as talent outside of their exploits in 2013/2014 (winning ANC, and decent showing at the WC). All thoe are other names are no different from the talent we have now.
Onazi was a beast in his prime. I’m still angry at that American referee. Matuidi deserved a red for that career altering tackle!
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Synopsis »

Enugu II wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:06 pm
amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm the 1998 is the most overrated team in nigerian history. one fluke win over Spain, and people think they are the $#%. little wonder Denmark destroyed us. and we lost to Paraguay too.
Amafolas

You started with a good point but when you add the loss to Paraguay, I have to shake my head. The Paraguay game? Where Nigeria emptied the bench? Or did I miss something?
Nigeria needs to stop benching our players after winning two games. It has never worked for us.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Tobi17 »

At least this thread does (despite our raging differences of opinion) unite us all on the same wavelength of agreement that Nigerian football with all its pedigree, potentials and viably productive population has colossally failed to live up to its expectations...we seriously need to have a long and hard look at ourselves as a people and nation cause we should be doing way better.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

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BAP wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:33 pm
vancity eagle wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:19 pm Watching this world cup and reflecting on past ones, its become painfully obvious to me what the problem with SE and AFrican teams in general is, and its not what most people think, though I have seen some highlight this before.

It's not the players quality, absolutely not.

SE have the players to make a quarterfinal run, make no mistake about it. So do teams like Senegal, Morocco, even Ghana.

I dont ever want to hear that our players are not good enough. There is a problem with our players, but it isn't that they "aren't good enough"

It also IS NOT the coaching. I am not saying that the coaching cannot improve, because it can, but that is not the MAIN PROBLEM with SE and African teams in general.

The problem is rather a simple one, but it may be a hard one to fix because of what may be the "AFrican mentality"

THE PROBLEM IS THAT AFRICAN PLAYERS ARE LAZY AND LACK DETERMINATION.

YES IVE SAID IT THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH AFRICAN TEAMS AND THAT IS WHAT WILL KEEP HOLDING US BACK.

Just look at how sheer determination elevated Japan over Germany. Was it players or coaching ? No it wasn't, it was sheer determination.

Look at how sheer determination made Holland look like amateurs against the Ecuadorian team today.

Look at the sheer determination of Saudi to play to the end and deny the Argentines.

Look at the sheer determination of the Koreans as they hassled the Uruguayans non stop.

Look at the sheer determination of the US against England. (I am still at halftime but you can see that determination is the difference between these 2 teams)

Look at the sheer determination of Iran who lost their opening match 6-2 to come back and win against Wales.

IT IS ABOUT WHO WANTS IT MORE, AND AFRICANS ARE HAPPY TO JUST GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS. PURE LAZINESS AND BIGMANISM.

We think we have arrived when we haven't.

See how pure laziness and lack of determination cost Senegal against Holland, as players were ball watching and Mendy was rooted to his goal. See how pure laziness from Senegal allowed Qatar to score a goal they should not have scored. The determination from Qatar today, had they half the quality of Senegal, they would have won the match. Who remembers how Senegal in 2018 again were ball watching as they allowed Colombia to score a header. Who remembers how in 2014 Ivory Coast allowed the same Colombia to score on them from a corner. It was a tiny player who got it. Disgraceful.

Our 4-0 loss to Portugal the other day was pure lack of will to run and fight on the pitch. Our loss to Argentina in 2018 again pure lack of will to fight for every minute.

Africans are always standing around losing the people they are supposed to mark, they switch off they dont press, they lack the fight.

I put it to you all here today, that this is the main thing holding AFrican football back, its lack of determination and fight for an entire match.

Why do you think the Asian teams are doing better than us ?

Do they have better players ? NO

Do they have better coaches ? Probably yes slightly, but its not about coaching really

Do they fight harder for a full 90 plus minutes ? YES.


People may not want to hear this but it is the absolute truth.

If we look back to when we won AFCON with Keshi, it came down to that match with CIV, and the reason we won was not because we had better players, not even better tactics or coaching. THE PLAYERS WANTED IT MORE, plain and simple.

We need to only call players who will die on the pitch. Primadonnas and lazy players need to be dumped big time.
And just like that .. Less than 24 hours later your theory gets stood up on its head as Morocco downs Belgium and Costa Rica beats a Gra Gra Japan

Or did Morocco suddenly find the Gra Gra Spirit or did Japan Lose theirs ? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Morocco beat a bunch of old men.

Did you think old men can play with the determination I speak of ?
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by wanaj0 »

Synopsis wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:25 pm
wanaj0 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:23 pm
amafolas wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 pm
Orion wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:12 am
Tobi17 wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:40 am The 2013 SE under Keshi that won the AFCON were the least talented set of players we assembled save for a few like Victor Moses, Mikel Obi and to some lesser extent Emenike, yet they beat some of more touted favorites to win the AFCON. I believe that feat was achievable because Keshi had that team playing to a very unique system that brought out the best in the players, sometimes you don't need world beaters in your team to flourish, just adopt a system that works for you and stick to it.
Our 2013 team was packed with talent compared to our current team.

Vincent Enyeama <= Kai, we can only dream of having a keeper like this now.
Kenneth Omeruo
Godfrey Oboabona
Elderson Echiéjilé
Efe Ambrose
Mikel Obi
Ogenyi Onazi
Emmanuel Emenike
Victor Moses

Just look at this team. You can see a SOLID spine from back to front. Some of those players faded in later years and were derided here, but in 2013 they were at their peak or close. Even Yobo, who was still a decent player at that time (as he proved at the 2014 WC) couldn't secure a place in that team.

The only players from our current team that'll make the 2013 first team (on current form), are Osimhen and maybe Iwobi.
you guys judge this with hindsight, because the team succeeded. Only Mikel + Enyeama probably deserve to be seen as talent outside of their exploits in 2013/2014 (winning ANC, and decent showing at the WC). All thoe are other names are no different from the talent we have now.
Prior to the 2018 WC debacle, we were told of how we have the BEST SE team since ages etc!

In 2013, we were told that Keshi filled the team with JUNKS because he was trying to 'SELL' the players!

God bless Sunday Mbah the elephant slayer
In 2013-2014, outside of our starting XI, our team was filled with junk. No way Gambo Mohamad should have been in the team. You saw what happened when Onazi left the World Cup match.
I am nor arguing with you.

Team field with Junk players won the AFCON and qualified for the WC 2nd round.

Team field with the 'best players' on offer coached by the 'best' coach had a first round exit at the WC plus a golden bronze at the ANC
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

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People here obsess over coaches too much. Football talent is cyclical. There are times when you have good talent and times when you have poor talent. You can't blame any coach for not having a good pool of goalkeepers to select from.

Take Vincent Enyeama from 2013 and put him in our current side, and you'll see completely different results. The goals that eliminated us from the AFCON and WC would have been saved by Enyeama. So you could see a side that probably got to the AFCON semi-final and qualified for the world cup. Just one player. We're not even talking about the likes of Obi, Moses etc. That's one (big) advantage Keshi had over Eguavoen, who failed at the AFCON and Word Cup playoffs because the talent wasn't there.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by fabio »

Orion wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:19 pm People here obsess over coaches too much. Football talent is cyclical. There are times when you have good talent and times when you have poor talent. You can't blame any coach for not having a good pool of goalkeepers to select from.

Take Vincent Enyeama from 2013 and put him in our current side, and you'll see completely different results. The goals that eliminated us from the AFCON and WC would have been saved by Enyeama. So you could see a side that probably got to the AFCON semi-final and qualified for the world cup. Just one player. We're not even talking about the likes of Obi, Moses etc. That's one (big) advantage Keshi had over Eguavoen, who failed at the AFCON and Word Cup playoffs because the talent wasn't there.
That's not true.

Rohr dropped the two most experienced GKs (Ezenwa and Akpeyi) in the team.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by Orion »

fabio wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:35 pm
Orion wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:19 pm People here obsess over coaches too much. Football talent is cyclical. There are times when you have good talent and times when you have poor talent. You can't blame any coach for not having a good pool of goalkeepers to select from.

Take Vincent Enyeama from 2013 and put him in our current side, and you'll see completely different results. The goals that eliminated us from the AFCON and WC would have been saved by Enyeama. So you could see a side that probably got to the AFCON semi-final and qualified for the world cup. Just one player. We're not even talking about the likes of Obi, Moses etc. That's one (big) advantage Keshi had over Eguavoen, who failed at the AFCON and Word Cup playoffs because the talent wasn't there.
That's not true.

Rohr dropped the two most experienced GKs (Ezenwa and Akpeyi) in the team.
Rohr succeeded in his objectives. I'm talking about our failures. Eguavoen failed at the AFCON and failed to qualify for the World Cup. Swap out the goalkeepers he used and put Enyeama in there, and we may be talking of a different story. He didn't have Ezenwa or Akpeyi to select as they had lost form by 2022.
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Re: IVE FINALLY FIGURED OUT THE PROBLEM WITH SE & CAF TEAMS

Post by vancity eagle »

Very slack defending almost cost Ghana today. Do you see what I'm talking about ?

We try to get the job done with minimal effort. Defenders ball watching as Korea WANTED IT MORE, on those 2 crosses and goals.

You cannot be slack at this level.

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