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Enugu II wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:11 amYujam
You actually do not need to wait. We have been witnessing this in games even before now. Thus, there is no reason to wait for end of tourney. The only mystery that the end of tourney will bring is whether multiple African teams will advance beyond the first round.
Sure.... But the point is that the goal of many African players is not essentially to get to those clubs but to earn a good pay day. If that big payday is in Saudi Arabia, they will head to Saudi Arabia. These economic issues must be part of the equation. These players will take a move to Saudi Arabia over one to La Liga if the compensation in Saudi Arabia is more. This is what I note is important in these cases. Another issue missing is also that some footballers may consider the local language before making a decision if the pay from those options are similar. One thing we must understand is that football is not different from a labor location decision that any other person would make coming from Nigeria. This is nothing but an employment decision -- forget what this or that fan may think or hope for.Orion wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:44 amBut getting into those clubs and staying there surely shows some level of professionalism and work ethic, on top of whatever natural skill the player has. Those clubs are businesses. If you're lazy, you don't survive.Enugu II wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:58 am VE
Halleluyah!!! You finally, see the light. Now you understand when we point out that BS about playing in BIG 5 league was exactly that -- BS. In African player cases, I have noted, tgat playing in a Big 5 league does not make one better than a guy playing in the Middle East or other leagues because of economic dictates.
This problem is more complex than people are making out. People are looking for simple answers, but there are no simple answers. First, you need to start with talented players. Senegal won the AFCON because they're more talented than Nigeria right now.
And even if you talk of local players. Didn't our local guys get tossed out of the CHAN qualifiers recently? Even on that front, they're failing against African-based opposition.
Keshi motivated the team, but the foundation of the squad was weak and filled with junk which is why players got comfortable and why we collapsed when we lost one key player.amafolas wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:20 am all gra gra without organization will earn you nada.
all gra gra without being very conditioned will lead to you tiring late, and conceding late goals
heart and determination can make up for gra gra. Wanna know who pumped an undertalented team full of hear and belief. The great Stephen Keshi and his overachieving team that won AFCON 2013, and nearly beat France. Yet you VE was here dissing him day and night.
So Japan is a gragra team in your football eyes?? Japan is a very technical team who know how to use the ball wisely, look how they changed their strategy against Germany in the second half and dominated the germans.EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:36 am It's Deja vu all over again. I really have been around here for so long that history seems to be constantly repeating itself. Where things happen so fast that it seems that nothing happenned.
VE, once upon a time here on CE, not too long ago. We used to make fun of the so called "GRA GRA TEAMS", the teams that depended on effort ,tireless running and sheer will. Remember police football too? Teams like Japan,USA, Equador etc got no respect around here
Well , it seems like these gra gra teams lucked out and found a little bit of skill to make them relevant. Who would've thunk it?
So, it seems to like you're asking us to add some gra gra and tireless running to the wingplay we've been developing over the past 50yrs.
You know what? You're absolutely gaddem right! It has taken us this long to realize that we don't have what it takes to dribble everybody and win easily. We simply have to Outlook teams. That's all!
Are you talking of the same Ghana we watched against Portugal? How can you be 3 :1 down, score a goal and all you can think of is doing the Ronaldo celebration instead of taking the ball to the middleline? Sorry that was dumb and showed lack of determination.vancity eagle wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:02 am My point is about African players thinking they can get the job done without putting in maximum effort.
Does the US ever approach games like this ?
There is plenty of data to support this, I dont need to see the rest of the WC.
I agree though that Ghana are kind of an exception. They have never had the greatest teams but they all work as a unit and are very determined.
Dede Ayew especially, although his brother is absolutely useless.
Good points! This makes Rohr's statement " We are here to learn from better players " even more stupid.vancity eagle wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:19 pm Watching this world cup and reflecting on past ones, its become painfully obvious to me what the problem with SE and AFrican teams in general is, and its not what most people think, though I have seen some highlight this before.
It's not the players quality, absolutely not.
SE have the players to make a quarterfinal run, make no mistake about it. So do teams like Senegal, Morocco, even Ghana.
I dont ever want to hear that our players are not good enough. There is a problem with our players, but it isn't that they "aren't good enough"
It also IS NOT the coaching. I am not saying that the coaching cannot improve, because it can, but that is not the MAIN PROBLEM with SE and African teams in general.
The problem is rather a simple one, but it may be a hard one to fix because of what may be the "AFrican mentality"
THE PROBLEM IS THAT AFRICAN PLAYERS ARE LAZY AND LACK DETERMINATION.
YES IVE SAID IT THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH AFRICAN TEAMS AND THAT IS WHAT WILL KEEP HOLDING US BACK.
Just look at how sheer determination elevated Japan over Germany. Was it players or coaching ? No it wasn't, it was sheer determination.
Look at how sheer determination made Holland look like amateurs against the Ecuadorian team today.
Look at the sheer determination of Saudi to play to the end and deny the Argentines.
Look at the sheer determination of the Koreans as they hassled the Uruguayans non stop.
Look at the sheer determination of the US against England. (I am still at halftime but you can see that determination is the difference between these 2 teams)
Look at the sheer determination of Iran who lost their opening match 6-2 to come back and win against Wales.
IT IS ABOUT WHO WANTS IT MORE, AND AFRICANS ARE HAPPY TO JUST GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS. PURE LAZINESS AND BIGMANISM.
We think we have arrived when we haven't.
See how pure laziness and lack of determination cost Senegal against Holland, as players were ball watching and Mendy was rooted to his goal. See how pure laziness from Senegal allowed Qatar to score a goal they should not have scored. The determination from Qatar today, had they half the quality of Senegal, they would have won the match. Who remembers how Senegal in 2018 again were ball watching as they allowed Colombia to score a header. Who remembers how in 2014 Ivory Coast allowed the same Colombia to score on them from a corner. It was a tiny player who got it. Disgraceful.
Our 4-0 loss to Portugal the other day was pure lack of will to run and fight on the pitch. Our loss to Argentina in 2018 again pure lack of will to fight for every minute.
Africans are always standing around losing the people they are supposed to mark, they switch off they dont press, they lack the fight.
I put it to you all here today, that this is the main thing holding AFrican football back, its lack of determination and fight for an entire match.
Why do you think the Asian teams are doing better than us ?
Do they have better players ? NO
Do they have better coaches ? Probably yes slightly, but its not about coaching really
Do they fight harder for a full 90 plus minutes ? YES.
People may not want to hear this but it is the absolute truth.
If we look back to when we won AFCON with Keshi, it came down to that match with CIV, and the reason we won was not because we had better players, not even better tactics or coaching. THE PLAYERS WANTED IT MORE, plain and simple.
We need to only call players who will die on the pitch. Primadonnas and lazy players need to be dumped big time.
YOU ARE LAZY AND LACK DETERMINATION.vancity eagle wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:19 pm THE PROBLEM IS THAT AFRICAN PLAYERS ARE LAZY AND LACK DETERMINATION.
YES IVE SAID IT THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH AFRICAN TEAMS AND THAT IS WHAT WILL KEEP HOLDING US BACK.
Keshi went to the WC to COMPETE.
There is no doubt he has little confidence in anything black. He also thinks he knows it all when infact knows very little. He is the typical Uncle Ruckus type personfabio wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:53 amYOU ARE LAZY AND LACK DETERMINATION.vancity eagle wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:19 pm THE PROBLEM IS THAT AFRICAN PLAYERS ARE LAZY AND LACK DETERMINATION.
YES IVE SAID IT THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH AFRICAN TEAMS AND THAT IS WHAT WILL KEEP HOLDING US BACK.
YOU ARE HOLDING US BACK. With your generalisation and always talking down on AFRICANS.
Seems you have a superiority or know-it-all complex.
I disagree with your comments. If you have played football before, you will know that iron sharpens iron. You can only get better by playing against the best players in the best leagues and that is why when we get to the business end of the WC, the teams with players in the top leagues will be left standing.Enugu II wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:37 amSure.... But the point is that the goal of many African players is not essentially to get to those clubs but to earn a good pay day. If that big payday is in Saudi Arabia, they will head to Saudi Arabia. These economic issues must be part of the equation. These players will take a move to Saudi Arabia over one to La Liga if the compensation in Saudi Arabia is more. This is what I note is important in these cases. Another issue missing is also that some footballers may consider the local language before making a decision if the pay from those options are similar. One thing we must understand is that football is not different from a labor location decision that any other person would make coming from Nigeria. This is nothing but an employment decision -- forget what this or that fan may think or hope for.Orion wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:44 amBut getting into those clubs and staying there surely shows some level of professionalism and work ethic, on top of whatever natural skill the player has. Those clubs are businesses. If you're lazy, you don't survive.Enugu II wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:58 am VE
Halleluyah!!! You finally, see the light. Now you understand when we point out that BS about playing in BIG 5 league was exactly that -- BS. In African player cases, I have noted, tgat playing in a Big 5 league does not make one better than a guy playing in the Middle East or other leagues because of economic dictates.
This problem is more complex than people are making out. People are looking for simple answers, but there are no simple answers. First, you need to start with talented players. Senegal won the AFCON because they're more talented than Nigeria right now.
And even if you talk of local players. Didn't our local guys get tossed out of the CHAN qualifiers recently? Even on that front, they're failing against African-based opposition.
DammyDammy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:20 pmI disagree with your comments. If you have played football before, you will know that iron sharpens iron. You can only get better by playing against the best players in the best leagues and that is why when we get to the business end of the WC, the teams with players in the top leagues will be left standing.Enugu II wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:37 amSure.... But the point is that the goal of many African players is not essentially to get to those clubs but to earn a good pay day. If that big payday is in Saudi Arabia, they will head to Saudi Arabia. These economic issues must be part of the equation. These players will take a move to Saudi Arabia over one to La Liga if the compensation in Saudi Arabia is more. This is what I note is important in these cases. Another issue missing is also that some footballers may consider the local language before making a decision if the pay from those options are similar. One thing we must understand is that football is not different from a labor location decision that any other person would make coming from Nigeria. This is nothing but an employment decision -- forget what this or that fan may think or hope for.Orion wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:44 amBut getting into those clubs and staying there surely shows some level of professionalism and work ethic, on top of whatever natural skill the player has. Those clubs are businesses. If you're lazy, you don't survive.Enugu II wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:58 am VE
Halleluyah!!! You finally, see the light. Now you understand when we point out that BS about playing in BIG 5 league was exactly that -- BS. In African player cases, I have noted, tgat playing in a Big 5 league does not make one better than a guy playing in the Middle East or other leagues because of economic dictates.
This problem is more complex than people are making out. People are looking for simple answers, but there are no simple answers. First, you need to start with talented players. Senegal won the AFCON because they're more talented than Nigeria right now.
And even if you talk of local players. Didn't our local guys get tossed out of the CHAN qualifiers recently? Even on that front, they're failing against African-based opposition.
The legend, Samuel Etoo once said that if you prioritise making money in football, you will not get far in the career. A player who places financial rewards ahead of sporting challenges will make money but the career will suffer for it, that's why the wise one always find a balance. They play at their best years in Europe and then wind down in many "retirement" leagues I.e. MLS, China, Saudi Arabia, Japan etc.
The cases of Ezekiel Imoh and Raheem Lawal are good examples. They got offers in the Bundesliga and La Liga respectively and chose to go to Saudi Arabia and Turkey for more money and we all witnessed how their careers petered out.
Shock results have always been happening in the WC, in 1982, Algeria beat West Germany but it was the Germans who got to the final ditto Cameroon and Argentina in 1990.
The issues confronting African teams at the WC level is complex and not as simple as VE puts it.
There are issues with discipline, African players, especially the big ones, are not as disciplined with their national teams as they are with their European clubs. They frequently break camp rules and treat national team engagements like holidays. In 2003, I witnessed the difference between world champions, Brazil and the Super Eagles at the Nicon hotel in Abuja where both teams were lodged. The Brazilians didn't leave their rooms except for training and food. The SE were in the lobby entertaining all manners of people especially women. I even saw Chris Obodo at Sheraton hotel at midnight before the match. The FAs also do not give the coaches a free hand just like we saw in Morocco, where the coach was sacked in order to bring Ziyech and Mazraoui back into the team. What message does that send out?
Then there's the issue of coaches. The best coaches are unaffordable to most African countries. The few that can afford them like South Africa paying Carlos Pereira almost $300,000 per month do not have the top players to compliment the efforts of the team. I believe if teams like Nigeria, Cameroon, Algeria or even Senegal had good coaches during their golden generation they would have achieved more. The current coach of Senegal is holding the team back IMO. Like Rohr said at the 2018 WC, "we are here to learn". That sums up most of the foreign coaches that come to Africa.
my ideal wishlist next coach for naija is a fusion of Rohr's organization + Keshi's proud Naija-ness & self belief.
Weak foundation with Junk players that delivered the AFCON after not qualifying for the previous AFCON.vancity eagle wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:17 amKeshi motivated the team, but the foundation of the squad was weak and filled with junk which is why players got comfortable and why we collapsed when we lost one key player.amafolas wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:20 am all gra gra without organization will earn you nada.
all gra gra without being very conditioned will lead to you tiring late, and conceding late goals
heart and determination can make up for gra gra. Wanna know who pumped an undertalented team full of hear and belief. The great Stephen Keshi and his overachieving team that won AFCON 2013, and nearly beat France. Yet you VE was here dissing him day and night.
We failed to even qualify for afcon to defend it for a reason.
You cannot build long term success on a foundation of corruption.
