Food for thought!

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Food for thought!

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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Tobi17 »

That tweet mirrors my whole opinion about what it truly means to build a solid team that can play great football and compete with the very best in the world...Morocco have one of the best local leagues in Africa, yet over 70% of their current players who are breaking impressive feats in Qatar were born abroad, and honed their football skills in academies across Europe. So what truly is the real path to success in football? Nigeria can today decide to develop our grassroot football to world class level, yet still fail to make any significant impacts in world football...we can cap-tie all the fancy players born abroad whom we think are world class players...yet this players can don the GWG and still fail spectacularly (or not)...so the question is, What gives? is football just about luck? Morocco have a very superb football structure and league back home, yet they still relied heavily on their foreign born talents.. this is just a food for thought perspective for those that think the path to success in football is hinged only on developing your league back home (which of course I'm not advocating against), but there is definitely more to football than just having a world class structure.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Synopsis »

We can use both methods. Also, we need to start bringing foreign born Nigerians into the system when they are teenagers in lower leagues instead of waiting until they are established in big leagues and potentially fighting with countries such as England.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Dammy »

Senegal is also filled with foreign born players.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Tobi17 »

Dammy wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:27 am Senegal is also filled with foreign born players.
And they are Afircan champions, with Mane they would have fared better.

Senegal also have a decent league but 80% of their players are foreign born
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Re: Food for thought!

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What amazes me is this continued focus on discovering one thing that leads to success. The answer: THERRE IS NONE. In all human activities, there are several variables ALWAYS in play. Morocco's success is not based on using foreign-born players neither will they win the WC by using only home-based players. The answer is far more complex and requiring multiple variables. This search for a single answer is a search in futility. Moreover, there is NEVER a single answer to success. When we understand all this then we are well on the way to locating solutions than futile attempts at quick and simplistic answers to a problem.

I applaud the tweet but I wish posters can read it with deep thought especially the very last statement in that tweet.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Sunset »

Tobi17 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:58 pm
Well the one definitive route to success is making sure you have a well organized and competitive domestic scene, you can look at all the quarter finalists and that's what they all have in common and will always be the foundation of a national team. And players aren't the only focus as competent coaches are as important as the players.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Enugu II »

Sunset wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:36 am
Tobi17 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:58 pm
Well the one definitive route to success is making sure you have a well organized and competitive domestic scene, you can look at all the quarter finalists and that's what they all have in common and will always be the foundation of a national team. And players aren't the only focus as competent coaches are as important as the players.
Image

There we go! Another variable added to the equation. This is really what it should be about. The reality is that there is unlikely to be a single variable that answers any hum an endeavor. Most likely there will be multiple variables involved and necessary.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Food for thought!

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Whoever made this stupid argument that not capping foreign born players and relying on local players will bring success is a total dufuss.

As stated, Morocco has oneof the best leagues in Africa and have even won CHAN, yet almost entirely foreign born players are bringing them success.

The coach was even in charge of a CAF champions league winning team, yet he isn't filling the squad with those players like we know our corrupt Nigerian coaches would absolutely be doing.

Remember this coach was hired TO BRING ZIYECH BACK INTO THE TEAM

Meanwhile clowns like Oliseh dropped Mikel for Paul Onobi and we failed to qualify for AFCON as a result.

You win with the best players PERIOD.

In the Keshi era they told us it was about "who fit his system" just a euphemism for corruption.

To compete with the best you have to have the best possible.

We saw how a depleted Senegal failed spectacularly against England.

None of this means we cannot improve the leagues etc, but when you hear clowns like Amokachi blaming foreign born players for our failure, and other clowns talking about putting an end to foreign born players, you realize what a complete utter joke Nigeria is.
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Re: Food for thought!

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After our 4-0 loss to Portugal we even had some people say "our home based players would do no worse"

I put it to you that Portugal will spell Federal Republic of Nigeria if we were ever to do such a retarded thing.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA »

Our problem is that our best foreign born players don’t want to play for us.
Eze,Olise, Udogie, Ugochukwu, Maduekwe, andv chukwemeka are all either committed to another country or have no interest in Nigeria. Solve that.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Sunset »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:23 am Our problem is that our best foreign born players don’t want to play for us.
Eze,Olise, Udogie, Ugochukwu, Maduekwe, andv chukwemeka are all either committed to another country or have no interest in Nigeria. Solve that.
Solve what exactly? Players who want to play for the country that nurtured their talent their whole lives? Would you invite guests to a dirty home?
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by vancity eagle »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:23 am Our problem is that our best foreign born players don’t want to play for us.
Eze,Olise, Udogie, Ugochukwu, Maduekwe, andv chukwemeka are all either committed to another country or have no interest in Nigeria. Solve that.
It doesn't help when we even fail to qualify for Qatar.

Nobody wants to join a sinking ship.

Look at Morocco though, I guarantee many of their Belgium and Dutch born players will be choosing them.

People want to join successful teams and teams with potential.

That kid from Barca just chose Morocco over Spain, as did Hakimi, and he even held the dagger that sent th packing.

That's why I was hoping Senegal will end England's run.

Whats in our favor though is that England is just too stacked, with young players.

Madueke, Olise, Eze, Adarabioyo cannot all play for England.

What also makes these players not want to join is when we have an unstable federation. That's why we need stability, and doing rash things like firing coaches over friendlies is just daft.
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Re: Food for thought!

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vancity eagle wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:39 am
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:23 am Our problem is that our best foreign born players don’t want to play for us.
Eze,Olise, Udogie, Ugochukwu, Maduekwe, andv chukwemeka are all either committed to another country or have no interest in Nigeria. Solve that.
It doesn't help when we even fail to qualify for Qatar.

Nobody wants to join a sinking ship.

Look at Morocco though, I guarantee many of their Belgium and Dutch born players will be choosing them.

People want to join successful teams and teams with potential.

That kid from Barca just chose Morocco over Spain, as did Hakimi, and he even held the dagger that sent th packing.

That's why I was hoping Senegal will end England's run.

Whats in our favor though is that England is just too stacked, with young players.

Madueke, Olise, Eze, Adarabioyo cannot all play for England.

What also makes these players not want to join is when we have an unstable federation. That's why we need stability, and doing rash things like firing coaches over friendlies is just daft.
Organisation is what’s killing Nigeria. In every field - organisation.

The national teams have no base, no dedicated training facility…

How can EVERY OTHER COUNTRY pay their national coaches apart from Nigeria?

Why does every foreign coach have to deal with 10 local assistant coaches? U can’t pay him and you have the likes of Finidi, Salisu and co to deal with not to talk of Egu and his YouTube lectures…

You want to succeed, do things right…..

The funny thing though is that Nigerian leaders are so short sighted that they can’t see that the guy that modernises Nigerian Football and wins a WC that heralds a new generation of success will be exalted in Nigeria, if not Africa……

Guys like platini, Wenger and co are still living off INF Clairefontaine, Castelmaurou, Vichy and co…

Let’s elect an NFF chairman that is not based on the local FA RUBBISH but a successful businessman - that’s what every successful country does - then get a board that includes the FA, club chairman’s and ex footballers and fan groups…

Football is independent and should be ran as a business, it should generate its own wealth…

Football clubs should not be owned by states but by individuals…the can own- loan the clubs and when not performing on and off the pitch, it will be taken away…

Let’s stop mentioning the likes of Eze and co and start by getting the house in order

I like Sunset’s quote:
Sunset wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:38 am Solve what exactly? Players who want to play for the country that nurtured their talent their whole lives? Would you invite guests to a dirty home?
The NFF will but the will decline….if they make the mistake of coming,….they will never return.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Bigpokey24 »

This thread makes no sense. We've been using foreign born Nigerian players for almost a decade, and we failed to qualify for the world cup
Okoye, Aina, Balogun, Ekong, Aribo. Akpoguma, Ebuehi, Lookman, Bassey, and so on and so forth. So what's all the wahala about?
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by fabio »

Typical 'Educated' Nigerian approach to solving problems or issues: Copy a very small aspect of a policy, everyone else is doing it or importation.

They never consider structurally issues, environmentally factors, their own history... As long as Senegal and Morocco are doing it. We must do follow, follow..
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Re: Food for thought!

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Bigpokey24 wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:37 am This thread makes no sense. We've been using foreign born Nigerian players for almost a decade, and we failed to qualify for the world cup
Okoye, Aina, Balogun, Ekong, Aribo. Akpoguma, Ebuehi, Lookman, Bassey, and so on and so forth. So what's all the wahala about?
Failing to qualify for a WC is no big deal. Happens to better footballing countries than Nigeria.
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by airwolex »

Synopsis wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:15 am We can use both methods. Also, we need to start bringing foreign born Nigerians into the system when they are teenagers in lower leagues instead of waiting until they are established in big leagues and potentially fighting with countries such as England.
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Re: Food for thought!

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Enyi wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:51 am
vancity eagle wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:39 am
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:23 am Our problem is that our best foreign born players don’t want to play for us.
Eze,Olise, Udogie, Ugochukwu, Maduekwe, andv chukwemeka are all either committed to another country or have no interest in Nigeria. Solve that.
It doesn't help when we even fail to qualify for Qatar.

Nobody wants to join a sinking ship.

Look at Morocco though, I guarantee many of their Belgium and Dutch born players will be choosing them.

People want to join successful teams and teams with potential.

That kid from Barca just chose Morocco over Spain, as did Hakimi, and he even held the dagger that sent th packing.

That's why I was hoping Senegal will end England's run.

Whats in our favor though is that England is just too stacked, with young players.

Madueke, Olise, Eze, Adarabioyo cannot all play for England.

What also makes these players not want to join is when we have an unstable federation. That's why we need stability, and doing rash things like firing coaches over friendlies is just daft.
Organisation is what’s killing Nigeria. In every field - organisation.

The national teams have no base, no dedicated training facility…

How can EVERY OTHER COUNTRY pay their national coaches apart from Nigeria?

Why does every foreign coach have to deal with 10 local assistant coaches? U can’t pay him and you have the likes of Finidi, Salisu and co to deal with not to talk of Egu and his YouTube lectures…

You want to succeed, do things right…..

The funny thing though is that Nigerian leaders are so short sighted that they can’t see that the guy that modernises Nigerian Football and wins a WC that heralds a new generation of success will be exalted in Nigeria, if not Africa……

Guys like platini, Wenger and co are still living off INF Clairefontaine, Castelmaurou, Vichy and co…

Let’s elect an NFF chairman that is not based on the local FA RUBBISH but a successful businessman - that’s what every successful country does - then get a board that includes the FA, club chairman’s and ex footballers and fan groups…

Football is independent and should be ran as a business, it should generate its own wealth…

Football clubs should not be owned by states but by individuals…the can own- loan the clubs and when not performing on and off the pitch, it will be taken away…

Let’s stop mentioning the likes of Eze and co and start by getting the house in order

I like Sunset’s quote:
Sunset wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:38 am Solve what exactly? Players who want to play for the country that nurtured their talent their whole lives? Would you invite guests to a dirty home?
The NFF will but the will decline….if they make the mistake of coming,….they will never return.
God Bless you bro. The way our NFF is structured will never allow the game to grow. The current NFF President is the Chairman of the Zamfara State FA, what did he achieve in Zamfara to be propelled to the NFF? Nothing. The NFF elections is just about horse trading and settlement involving hundreds of millions of Naira. Most FA chairperson that form the Executive Committee of the NFF have not achieved anything in their states, they just occupy dusty offices at the sports council offices in their respective states depending on government allocation. At least, Amaju Pinnick, was able to get the private sector involved in football in Delta State and built a Football house as offices for the State FA, but these new lot are just scavengers.
The greatest disservice Pinnick did to Nigerian football was not supporting one of his Vice-Presidents, Dikko or Akinwumi, to succeed him. They had the blueprint for getting private sector funding but all that is now gathering dust.
Maybe that was his revenge on Nigerians for insisting on his removal!
I am happy
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Lolly »

Enugu II wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:04 am What amazes me is this continued focus on discovering one thing that leads to success. The answer: THERRE IS NONE. In all human activities, there are several variables ALWAYS in play. Morocco's success is not based on using foreign-born players neither will they win the WC by using only home-based players. The answer is far more complex and requiring multiple variables. This search for a single answer is a search in futility. Moreover, there is NEVER a single answer to success. When we understand all this then we are well on the way to locating solutions than futile attempts at quick and simplistic answers to a problem.

I applaud the tweet but I wish posters can read it with deep thought especially the very last statement in that tweet.
The tweet is valid and good for further discussion.

Many Nigerians who follow football including many here on CE strongly believe that our “preference” or love for foreign-born players has contributed to our recent decline. I disagree.

You have said above that there are several variables. But some variables are more important that the others. The quality of the players is always the starting point, whether local, foreign or moon born. This is where the SE is lacking. While we have been lucky to find quality attacking players, we have not been able to do the same for defensive (including goalkeepers) and midfield players. The best foreign-born Nigerians have chosen their country of birth ahead of us and we’ve been left with those not good enough to play for their country of birth.

We really need to do better with our scouting. A good coach would find players who suit his philosophy and style of play and then build a team. Not the lazy and olodo coaches we have recently who just pick players from Euro leagues and just plug them into holes on the field. Ko le work.
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Re: Food for thought!

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Lolly wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:04 pm We really need to do better with our scouting. A good coach would find players who suit his philosophy and style of play and then build a team. Not the lazy and olodo coaches we have recently who just pick players from Euro leagues and just plug them into holes on the field. Ko le work.
You can only find resources where they exist.
Put the world's greatest living coach in India or China and let us see how 'good' the players he finds will be.

Moreover, if you think it is realistic and/or feasible for a national coach to start dredging in the nooks and crannies of Nigerian football then you can't be serious.
What is the pyramid of local coaches doing if they can't spot a raw talent and get him playing at increasingly visible levels for someone to spot?
And even if they do, what chance has he of contributing meaningfully to the squad when he comes face to face with Messi, Ronaldo, Hakimi, Sallah, Mane, Mbappe, Jesus, De Bryne, Saka and Kane?

Are we joking here or are we being serious?
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by Enugu II »

Lolly wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:04 pm
Enugu II wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:04 am What amazes me is this continued focus on discovering one thing that leads to success. The answer: THERRE IS NONE. In all human activities, there are several variables ALWAYS in play. Morocco's success is not based on using foreign-born players neither will they win the WC by using only home-based players. The answer is far more complex and requiring multiple variables. This search for a single answer is a search in futility. Moreover, there is NEVER a single answer to success. When we understand all this then we are well on the way to locating solutions than futile attempts at quick and simplistic answers to a problem.

I applaud the tweet but I wish posters can read it with deep thought especially the very last statement in that tweet.
The tweet is valid and good for further discussion.

Many Nigerians who follow football including many here on CE strongly believe that our “preference” or love for foreign-born players has contributed to our recent decline. I disagree.

You have said above that there are several variables. But some variables are more important that the others. The quality of the players is always the starting point, whether local, foreign or moon born. This is where the SE is lacking. While we have been lucky to find quality attacking players, we have not been able to do the same for defensive (including goalkeepers) and midfield players. The best foreign-born Nigerians have chosen their country of birth ahead of us and we’ve been left with those not good enough to play for their country of birth.

We really need to do better with our scouting. A good coach would find players who suit his philosophy and style of play and then build a team. Not the lazy and olodo coaches we have recently who just pick players from Euro leagues and just plug them into holes on the field. Ko le work.
Lolly,

I like the fact that you seem to have genuinely opened a discussion that needs to be opened. Many here are not willing to open up a discussion with differing views.

Let me note that I entirely agree that football labor is a very important variable. Although there are several other variables. The labor, I believe, is largely found outside Nigeria. Note here that I have not entirely precluded the discovery of labor IN NIGERIA. I will never preclude that because football labor is transitory because of instability of form and always new discoveries. Thus, there must be openness to labor being discovered anywhere, including Nigeria.

Further, football labor (unlike European nations) that are accessible to Nigeria is widely distributed and not narrowly distributed for several reasons that are often peculiar to countries like ours. Why? our football labor seeks economic outcomes first and foremost and not necessarily to play for the highest rated clubs. This leads to a wider distribution of the relevant labor e.g. a Nigerian footballer offered better pay in Saudi Arabia may choose a club there than to play for lower wages in a more prestigious Europe.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Food for thought!

Post by scholl »

Synopsis wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:15 am We can use both methods. Also, we need to start bringing foreign born Nigerians into the system when they are teenagers in lower leagues instead of waiting until they are established in big leagues and potentially fighting with countries such as England.
Are we talking about a place with good capital infrastructure? Reliable electricity and fuel supply? Less tenuous logistics? Safe travel?

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