Make this Jamaicans go sit down

[smartbrother]

They can't all of a sudden be the fastest people in the world. Something aint right.

something ain't right if you just started following T&F.

I once saw a Merlene Ottey (the mother of 'em all) race done while she was at the Uni of Nebraska or somewhere in 1977. No be today Jamo don dey run o.

Merlene Ottey the mother of all dopers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/448666.stm

[megapro]

East Germany was scary.

In that 87 WC they medaled in about all but 3 women events (marathon, walk and heptatlon). 22 medals.
Even the men, Schoenlebe came from nowhere to pip form Egbunike.

The system was corrupt and once they unified, the dominance stopped. They were not caught though. Even in 1991 the female sprinters led by Krabbe had a 'Pisser' for the tests.

Some of them are now men!

Bodies Of Evidence
Forced to use steroids, former East German athletes now seek damages
E.M. Swift

"Supporting means" was how East German sports officials referred to the little blue pills that were carefully meted out through the 1970s and '80s to their most promising athletes, some as young as 11. Oral-Turinabol was its scientific name, an anabolic steroid. When the athletes were told anything at all, they were told the pills were vitamins. The top-secret program was overseen by GDR Olympic head Manfred Ewald and administered by Dr. Manfred Hoeppner. In their efforts to win medals that could be turned into political gain, they experimented on, lied to and eventually ruined the health of many of their country's sports stars.

That shameful chapter in Olympic history was reopened on March 31. That's when 197 former East German athletes suffering from a wide variety of ailments met a deadline to file claims for a share of the $2.2 million compensation fund that was set up to help pay for their medical treatment.

Government officials had expected many more to come forward. Of the roughly 10,000 athletes who were given Oral-Turinabol and other steroids by their sports club doctors and coaches, usually without the athletes' knowledge or consent, as many as 1,000 now have severe health problems. "Many remain silent out of shame," says Birgit Boese, a claimant who was East Germany's junior shot put champion and now runs an advice center called Doping-Victim-Help. "Others don't want to risk their careers. We were just a mass of bodies in an inhuman system. We all suffered severe bodily harm."

For men the health problems caused by prolonged steroid use ranged from sterility and impotence to damaged hearts and failing kidneys. There are cases of male athletes who developed womanly breasts that had to be surgically reduced. Several top hammer throwers, who were subjected to intense dosages and would now be in their 40s and 50s, are dead.

For women the little blue pills led in the short term to an increase in body hair, a deepening of the voice, severe acne and an increased sex drive. Rica Reinisch, a backstroker who won three gold medals in the 1980 Olympics, says she and her teammates called the pill "the sex pill." The long-term side effects were much worse. Reinisch, who gave up competitive swimming in '81 at age 16, suffered ovarian infections for many years and had a miscarriage. Gynecological problems such as ovarian cysts, infertility and uterine shrinkage were common among the claimants. In at least 20 cases, according to Werner Franke, the molecular biologist who uncovered the secret doping program in 1989 after the fall of the Berlin Wall, former athletes gave birth to children with defects such as clubfeet. One claimant, '86 European shot put champ Heidi Krieger, cruelly nicknamed Hormone Heidi by her coaches, has testified to the German government that she was so physically and psychologically damaged by the doping that she underwent a sex-change operation after her competitive career and is now Andreas Krieger, a man. "They weren't just strengthening women," says Franke, the man most responsible for pursuing compensation for the athletes. "They were virilizing them."

Each claimant will receive only about $10,000 from the fund. But for the athletes, the awards are less about money than an acknowledgement of what was done to them. Says Boese, "The next generation has to know."

Jamaicans have always been the fastest people in the world. You just havent been paying close attention.

Prior to Bolt, the most talented 100m runner I ever saw was Jamaican Donovan Bailey the gold medalist in 1996. Too bad his career was shortened by injury. There was also Linford Christie who won the gold medal in 1992 also Jamaican. And going back even further, Donald Quarrie a gold medalist in 1976 and Herb Mckinley.

On the womens side, Merlene Ottey was the best sprinter of the late 80s and 90s. She was always relegated to silver however almost all the runners who beat her were later busted for doping, especially those Eastern European women.


Which brings me to the main point. The reason Jamaica looks good now is 3fold.

1. They are tapping local talent and are much better organized than before when they were haphazard. Local coaches in Jamaica are now amongst the best.
2. Jamaican runners now stay at home instead of going to the US on college scholarships. In the past many Jamaicans were wasted by the US collegiate system. College coaches would make them run in too many races which shortened their careers by making them injury prone. College coaches are not interested in a runners long term career. They just want to win now. If Bolt was in college, the coach would have made him run 100m, 200m, 400m in every meet in order to amass as many points as possible. Now that Bolt is in jamaica, his coach can limit the number of races he enters. This is good for his long term career.

2b. Other runners simply could not keep up with the academic rigors of college. They dropped out of school and thus ended their running careers. many Jamaican runners were from rural areas, coming to the US after O-Levels they simply were not ready for college.

3. Better and more stringent dope testing has reduced the number of medals won by USA, Eastern Europe and others who used to steal medals from Jamaica. Runners like Juliet Cuthbert and Merlene Ottey would have won gold medals.

If you look back to the 1987 world championships for example, you will note that virtually all the womens medals were won by Eastern Europeans most likely doped on androgenic drugs. Even the US was locked out of the medals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_World ... 7s_results

[cic old boy]

This does not hold any water. Again there are second rate Jamaicans coming to USA on track scholarships. For petes sake there are even Zimbabwean and Kenyan sprinters coming to the top schools like LSU, UTEP and Florida state. If LSU and FSU which are the top schools are actively recruiting Zimbabwean, you think they would not want to recruit Jamaicans ?
Do you know that some division 1 schools actually have athletes on their roster who have not run under 11 seconds, talk less of 10.00 seconds. There is no shortage of athletics scholarships for people who can run and the amount of funding available for athletics is still good enough.

Someone seems to have forgotten what the point was or is just talking to impress himself! I said the Balco scandal has contributed to many Jamaicans now training at home as opposed to coming through the US collegiate system. You said it had nothing to do with it! I supported my claim with evidence from DJ Johnson a top Jamaican coach. You say we should ignore him and listen to you. I ask who the f*ck are you on the subject of track and field?

The mere fact that this author mentioned San Jose State , New York Tech and Nebraska as powerhouses shows he does not know anything about the sport. He is still living in the 1960s. None of those schools are powerhouses. The true powerhouses today are schools like LSU, FSU, USC etc. And they actively recruit from overseas. As I mentioned they are even recruiting from countries that have no sprinting tradition.
Even the top tier runners who want college scholarships get them easily. Kirani James was at the Univ of Alabama in 2011. Jonathan & kevin Borlee were at FSU in 2010. VCB and a host of other Jamaicans have been on college scholarships.
You provided as proof of yoru balco asertion an author who clearly does not know what is going on in athletics today. That severely weakens your arguments.

Diversionary nonsense! Do you remember what the issue was? Why are many Jamo athletes training at home instead of going through the US system like the Merlene Otteys in the past? A top Jamo coach has told you why and you don't want to believe him. That's your problem not mine.

You have utterly disqualified your arguments by mentioning Victor Conte. He is a criminal who has absolutely no credibility. He has been going around telling anyone who would listen that all athletes are on dope. He is just bitter because his drug making operation was ended by USADA. If you are going to provide evidence you are going to have to use a credible witness, not someone with a big axe to grind. Nobody believes Victor Conte. He is known as a person who makes no bones about lying even going as far as lying under oath.

Pure comedy! a) The criminal justice system recognises that even criminals tell the truth. This is why they use criminals as state witnesses to nail their colleagues. It is why someone like Angel Heredia who worked with Conte was used as state witness in the prosecution of Balco. b) For a guy who spent a lot energy here asking for evidence of Bolt's doping, you have no evidence to support your claims about Conte's motives. c) Conte, being a man who was so successful in beating the system, is well qualified to talk about drug cheats.

He is clearly lying when he says there is no routine testing in athletics between October and January because as I have posted above, the IAAF, WADA and other organizations do send testers to the Caribbean and Africa to test runners all year round.

The man published his claims in the NY Daily News. He wrote to d#$% Pound then head of WADA. As far as I know, no one at official level has disputed his claims. If WADA, IAAF, etc test Jamaicans all year round at their homes, why is it considered vital that Jamaica sets up an independent anti-doping agency affiliated to WADA - as they have in the UK, US, etc?

I know the media lie. But there cannot be a conspiracy to protect bolt amongst all the media in the entire world. There are many Europeans who resent the fact that Jamaica dominates athletics. I struggle to believe that all these people have conspired to protect Bolt.

There is scepticism in parts of the mainstream media. In Germany I think it was Bild that published an interview with a German athlete who called the 2008 Olympics 100m final a farce. Most of the corporate media in the developed world are owned by a handful of corporations. Right now, Bolt sells newspapers and is attractive for sponsors. If Bolt is busted, it would be very difficult to sell Olympic track and field to sponsors and the viewing public. So very few are prepared to dig for dirt, unless the story becomes too big to suppress.

I am certain that the media will be able to sell the Olympics to the public with or without Bolt. In the UK they will focus on Jessica Ennis and their great cycling team. In America there is an endless array of Olympians considered likeable and are gold winning athletes like the gymnasts and the swimmers whom the media can use to draw audiences.

Bolt is the biggest name in track and field. If he is exposed as a drug cheat, you can kiss goodbye to the sport's credibility. Very few would believe that anyone is clean.

If you provide credible evidence that Bolt is indeed working with Heredia then you have a case. So far I have not seen any credible evidence that Heredia is Bolt’s dope supplier or that Bolt even works with Heredia. If Bolt were doping I doubt he would be careless enough to consider openly working a known drug supplier.

First, you claimed people are accusing Bolt of doping without evidence. Now you ask for "credible evidence". OK, I will fly to Jamaica b/w Oct and Jan and covertly film Bolt with Heredia. Hopefully, that would satisfy you. As for Bolt not wanting to work with a known dealer, you don't seem to know that Marion Jones hooked up with Ben Johnson's trainer. It was b/c she knew people like you would still ignore that sort of evidence. It was actually her sponsors that got her to drop him.

And to answer your question, I am not saying Bolt is innocent. My point is that people always come on CE to claim with finality that Bolt is doping. When challenged for evidence they provide no evidence or just provide rumours and innuendo.

I've already told you to wait until he is caught for conclusive evidence, unless you want to pay for me to carry out a covert operation in Jamaica.

[okjazz]

I see that CIC has resorted to his tried and tested tactic: Childish insults when argument is not going in his favor. I for one will never be cowed by childish insults from a desperate man.

Someone seems to have forgotten what the point was or is just talking to impress himself! I said the Balco scandal has contributed to many Jamaicans now training at home as opposed to coming through the US collegiate system. You said it had nothing to do with it! I supported my claim with evidence from DJ Johnson a top Jamaican coach. You say we should ignore him and listen to you. I ask who the f*ck are you on the subject of track and field?

The Balco scandal has NOT contributed to many Jamaicans staying at home. It has nothing to do with Jamaicans Top athletes all over the world are no longer coming to the US in droves like they used because:
1. The advent of professionalism means that runners can becomes professionals as early as 1176, 17, 18 and make good money. So why bother coming to the US for a mere scholarship
2. It has been proven that the US collegiate system actually ruins the careers of many runners through over-training.

That article you posted is laughable. It did not provide any proof that the Balco scandal has caused a reduction in funding. Also you are still dodging this question: If the Balco scandal has caused a reduction in scholarships or funding then how come there are still many second rate runners from all over the world coming to the US on full scholarships ?

Also, do you really think a US college would turn down Usain Bolt or Asafa Powell or Blake who were already running world class times in their teens ? These are the kind of athletes that US colleges coaches would die to have in their rosters.

In fact as written in the link below, Usain Bolt was offered several US scholarships. That alone discredits that article you posted
http://www.espn.co.uk/london-olympics-2 ... /1626.html

“He was offered a number of scholarships to American colleges, but Bolt turned them down, adamant that he wanted to stay in Jamaica”

There are various articles all over the web that explain why the top Jamaicans no longer go to the US, such as this one
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympi ... eroes.html

No longer too do the best athletes have to be wooed by the American college scholarship dollar; they can thrive at home.

Diversionary nonsense! Do you remember what the issue was? Why are many Jamo athletes training at home instead of going through the US system like the Merlene Otteys in the past? A top Jamo coach has told you why and you don't want to believe him. That's your problem not mine.

That coach is clueless. The fact that he still thinks New York Tech is a powerhouse makes it obvious that he does not know what he is talking about.

Pure comedy! a) The criminal justice system recognises that even criminals tell the truth. This is why they use criminals as state witnesses to nail their colleagues. It is why someone like Angel Heredia who worked with Conte was used as state witness in the prosecution of Balco. b) For a guy who spent a lot energy here asking for evidence of Bolt's doping, you have no evidence to support your claims about Conte's motives. c) Conte, being a man who was so successful in beating the system, is well qualified to talk about drug cheats

I have established that Conte is lying about the lack of off season testing: I have provided conclusive proof and data that the IAAF does indeed perform out of season testing and has been doing so for 20 years with a particular emphasis on Russia, Jamaica, Ethiopia and Kenya. This proof is via the link on the IAAF website. I have even gone further by providing examples of runners who were sanctioned by IAAF for refusing to make themselves available

Here is more proof that Conte is lying from the IAAF website: http://www.iaaf.org/mm/document/imported/36836.pdf

Between 1990 and 2005 the IAAF testing programme conducted 22,062 out-of competition tests;

The man published his claims in the NY Daily News. He wrote to d#$% Pound then head of WADA. As far as I know, no one at official level has disputed his claims. If WADA, IAAF, etc test Jamaicans all year round at their homes, why is it considered vital that Jamaica sets up an independent anti-doping agency affiliated to WADA - as they have in the UK, US, etc?

The answer is simple. It is critical for Jamaica to establish its own system because it acts as a further deterrent in addition to the IAAF efforts

There is scepticism in parts of the mainstream media. In Germany I think it was Bild that published an interview with a German athlete who called the 2008 Olympics 100m final a farce.

They never said they were skeptical about Bolt. All they did was publish views from Tobias Unger. Unger is free to his opinion just like you are. But none of you have provided any conclusive evidence. Just plain rumour mongering.
Unger is a runner which means he has inside knowledge about how athletes dope. If so he should share his info with IAAF and WADA instead of just saying baseless lies with no evidence.

Most of the corporate media in the developed world are owned by a handful of corporations. Right now, Bolt sells newspapers and is attractive for sponsors. If Bolt is busted, it would be very difficult to sell Olympic track and field to sponsors and the viewing public. So very few are prepared to dig for dirt, unless the story becomes too big to suppress.

Now this is a joke. The sport of athletics was popular before Bolt and it will still be popular after he leaves. Also European Newspapers have a wide array of sports that they can use to sell papers. They don’t need Bolt. Any story about the England national team will sell more papers than Bolt. Furthermore, Bolt is only in the headlines for a very limited time, usually for 2 weeks in a year. The rest of the time, Athletics is relegated to side stories.

And in the States, the media has absolutely no trouble selling their stories. There are enough interesting personalities to get people riled up: Tim Tiebow, Lebron James, Rex Ryan, and a host of other athletes who will easily sell more papers than Bolt.

Journalists pride themselves in exposing major stories. Any journalist who does a detailed investigation and exposes a drug scandal involving top Jamaican runners will become instantly famous, win a Pulitzer or whatever prize they are given, and will probably rake in millions of $$$ via a book deal. It is therefore laughable for you to say that journalists all over the world are protecting Bolt. This is especially true when you consider that there is a huge financial incentive for a journalist to expose such a big story.

Bolt is the biggest name in track and field. If he is exposed as a drug cheat, you can kiss goodbye to the sport's credibility. Very few would believe that anyone is clean.

Yes but that will not stop determined journalists from exposing Bolt. There are plenty of journalists who dont care about athletics. Plenty who are more interested in investigative work and the possibility of making big money by exposing a huge scandal. Some journalists do not care one bit about the sport of athletics because they earn a living by covering other sports like football. What makes you think such journalists are interested in protecting athletics ?

First, you claimed people are accusing Bolt of doping without evidence. Now you ask for "credible evidence". OK, I will fly to Jamaica b/w Oct and Jan and covertly film Bolt with Heredia. Hopefully, that would satisfy you. As for Bolt not wanting to work with a known dealer, you don't seem to know that Marion Jones hooked up with Ben Johnson's trainer. It was b/c she knew people like you would still ignore that sort of evidence. It was actually her sponsors that got her to drop him.

I still stand by my statement that you and others are accusing Bolt without providing evidence. You have not provided any evidence here. Just baseless claims from goofy blogs.

Until you provide credible proof that Bolt is doping , you have no case. You are no different from the other dozen CE members who come here spouting the same clap trap with no proof or evidence.

Try posting something from a credible site. Something that shows that a journalist did proper investigation, interviewed Bolts inner circle or exposed Bolts supplier. Posting stories from dead spin just makes your argument weaker

In Marion Jones case, there was credible proof:
1. Her ex boyfriend testified and said Marion doped
2. Her ex husband testified and said Marion doped
3. As far back as high school she was sanctioned for a doping offence and ended up hiring Johnny Cochran to threaten to sue the school district that was
4. A thorough investigation by USADA exposed her.


Note that Marion Jones was not busted by rumours such as the ones you are posting here. There was strong circumstantial evidence. No such evidence exists when it comes to Bolt.

I've already told you to wait until he is caught for conclusive evidence, unless you want to pay for me to carry out a covert operation in Jamaica.

And that is exactly the point ! You yourself have admitted that there is no conclusive evidence. You therefore have no case. People like you come to CE and look down on people who don’t buy into your conspiracy theories while having no evidence
There are many CE members who are knowledgable about this sport. When they suspect someone of doping they provide evidence such as an abnormal progression, sudden changes in body size, sudden spikes in performance, past transgressions. You on the other hand have not provided any evidence. In fact you have just admitted that there is no evidence. Were this a court case, the judge would have dismissed your case YW based on your own admission.
I believe there is a 50-50 chance that Bolt is clean because I see no evidence to the contrary. This notion that everyone is doping is bogus. I used think Allison Felix and Tyson Gay were likely doping until I found that they were amongst the first runners to volunteer for the biological passport program as far back as 2009. Now I have reason to believe that there is a good chance that they are clean.

[rock3t]

CIC is the only one talking sense here, the jamaicans are frauds.

Its easy for top athletes with money to pass "tests" http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids

[cic old boy]

I see that CIC has resorted to his tried and tested tactic: Childish insults when argument is not going in his favor. I for one will never be cowed by childish insults from a desperate man.

It's not an insult to report the fact that you are talking rubbish. You would make a good defence lawyer for a drug cheat. Do you know that many of them engage lawyers to defend them when they fail dope tests? The lawyers sometimes succeed by splitting hairs over the doping procedures, challenging the validity of the test, the equipment used, etc.

The Balco scandal has NOT contributed to many Jamaicans staying at home. It has nothing to do with Jamaicans Top athletes all over the world are no longer coming to the US in droves like they used because:
1. The advent of professionalism means that runners can becomes professionals as early as 1176, 17, 18 and make good money. So why bother coming to the US for a mere scholarship
2. It has been proven that the US collegiate system actually ruins the careers of many runners through over-training.

Absolute BS. I told you why Jamos prefer to stay at home. You disagreed. We've heard the evidence from an experienced Jamo track and field coach, who himself went through the US collegiate system. You claim you know more about the issue than him! Forgive me if I'd rather listen to him than you!

That article you posted is laughable. It did not provide any proof that the Balco scandal has caused a reduction in funding. Also you are still dodging this question: If the Balco scandal has caused a reduction in scholarships or funding then how come there are still many second rate runners from all over the world coming to the US on full scholarships ?

OK, so you want the article to provide a spreadsheet showing the athletics budget for all US colleges year-on-year for about a 20 year period? I don't even know how anyone with a brain can doubt the effect of a scandal like Balco.

Also, do you really think a US college would turn down Usain Bolt or Asafa Powell or Blake who were already running world class times in their teens ? These are the kind of athletes that US colleges coaches would die to have in their rosters.

You really don't understand the point. Why don't you read the article? Jamos are no longer finding the US attractive. One of the reasons provided by a Jamo coach is Balco causing funding to dry up.

In fact as written in the link below, Usain Bolt was offered several US scholarships. That alone discredits that article you posted
http://www.espn.co.uk/london-olympics-2 ... /1626.html

“He was offered a number of scholarships to American colleges, but Bolt turned them down, adamant that he wanted to stay in Jamaica”

There are various articles all over the web that explain why the top Jamaicans no longer go to the US, such as this one
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympi ... eroes.html

No longer too do the best athletes have to be wooed by the American college scholarship dollar; they can thrive at home.

This just confirms you don't get it. I told you one of the reasons they stay at home. You said it ain't so. I presented evidence from a Jamo coach. I also gave you another reason they stay at home - the poor standards of anti-doping testing, with no independent anti-doping federation, unlike the US. Juiced up athletes are more likely to be caught in the US. So even if Bolt was offered a scholarship in America, it was not in his interests to go and risk getting caught!

That coach is clueless. The fact that he still thinks New York Tech is a powerhouse makes it obvious that he does not know what he is talking about.

Read the article and stop this nonsense! The claim is that colleges that were "traditionally" a powerhouse have cut their athletic programmes. It is implicit in the comment that the powerhouse status is now in the past!

I have established that Conte is lying about the lack of off season testing: I have provided conclusive proof and data that the IAAF does indeed perform out of season testing and has been doing so for 20 years with a particular emphasis on Russia, Jamaica, Ethiopia and Kenya. This proof is via the link on the IAAF website. I have even gone further by providing examples of runners who were sanctioned by IAAF for refusing to make themselves available

Here is more proof that Conte is lying from the IAAF website: http://www.iaaf.org/mm/document/imported/36836.pdf

Between 1990 and 2005 the IAAF testing programme conducted 22,062 out-of competition tests;

The man said that those out of competition samples are collected mainly b/w competitions during the European track circuit from May till Sept each year. He said it was a waste of time and similar to testing during competitions in which hardly any top athlete is caught. He was talking about NO ROUTINE OFFSEASON TESTING and you are posting rubbish about out of competition testing! He said they should spend 50% of the funding testing during offseason where those athletes live. It happens in the UK/US. It doesn't happen in the Caribbean b/c they have no independent anti-doping body.

The answer is simple. It is critical for Jamaica to establish its own system because it acts as a further deterrent in addition to the IAAF efforts

But Jamaica has no independent anti-doping body and IAAF efforts b/w competitions are a joke! No wonder Jamos stay at home and are beating everybody!

They never said they were skeptical about Bolt. All they did was publish views from Tobias Unger. Unger is free to his opinion just like you are. But none of you have provided any conclusive evidence. Just plain rumour mongering.
Unger is a runner which means he has inside knowledge about how athletes dope. If so he should share his info with IAAF and WADA instead of just saying baseless lies with no evidence.

He called the 2008 final a farce. He said nobody is testing Jamaicans at home. His comments echo what Conte said. Carl Lewis said something similar. But for you it is all "baseless lies with no evidence"! How come the UK/US have independent anti-doping bodies and Jamaica doesn't? Is this to the advantage of juiced up athletes?

Now this is a joke. The sport of athletics was popular before Bolt and it will still be popular after he leaves. Also European Newspapers have a wide array of sports that they can use to sell papers. They don’t need Bolt. Any story about the England national team will sell more papers than Bolt. Furthermore, Bolt is only in the headlines for a very limited time, usually for 2 weeks in a year. The rest of the time, Athletics is relegated to side stories.

I live in Europe and you know nothing about how big Bolt is here. He is no longer a track and field star. He has transcended the sport. Put him on the cover of your publication and he shifts units. Have him fronting your product and you get positive returns. He is the figurehead of track and field right now. If he is caught doping, the sport would struggle to recover.

And in the States, the media has absolutely no trouble selling their stories. There are enough interesting personalities to get people riled up: Tim Tiebow, Lebron James, Rex Ryan, and a host of other athletes who will easily sell more papers than Bolt.

Track and field is all about Bolt. The marquee event at the Olympics is the 100m. Bolt is The Man. Expose him as a cheat and the sport is on its last legs. So most in the media would rather milk the fairytale for all it's worth.

Journalists pride themselves in exposing major stories. Any journalist who does a detailed investigation and exposes a drug scandal involving top Jamaican runners will become instantly famous, win a Pulitzer or whatever prize they are given, and will probably rake in millions of $$$ via a book deal. It is therefore laughable for you to say that journalists all over the world are protecting Bolt. This is especially true when you consider that there is a huge financial incentive for a journalist to expose such a big story.

You don't know how the mainstream media works. Do you know how many stories are spiked b/c it is not in the corporate interests of the owners? Do you know how many journos swallow their pride and accept their best works to be spiked so that they can continue to work in the industry? Do you think that when people like Marion Jones were getting juiced up the truth was not leaked out to the media and many decided not to touch it? Stories are killed everyday by editors for a variety of reasons that I don't have the time to explain here.

Yes but that will not stop determined journalists from exposing Bolt. There are plenty of journalists who dont care about athletics. Plenty who are more interested in investigative work and the possibility of making big money by exposing a huge scandal. Some journalists do not care one bit about the sport of athletics because they earn a living by covering other sports like football. What makes you think such journalists are interested in protecting athletics ?

As we speak, there are several journos who know the truth about Bolt, including Jamo journos, who have either decided the time is not right to speak, or whose editors have decided it is not in the publication's interest to publish, or they have decided that b/c of his profile, it is best that they continue digging until all traces of plausible deniability are removed.

I still stand by my statement that you and others are accusing Bolt without providing evidence. You have not provided any evidence here. Just baseless claims from goofy blogs.

You don't even know what "evidence" means! It doesn't mean something that satisfies an ostrich!

Until you provide credible proof that Bolt is doping , you have no case. You are no different from the other dozen CE members who come here spouting the same clap trap with no proof or evidence.

Try posting something from a credible site. Something that shows that a journalist did proper investigation, interviewed Bolts inner circle or exposed Bolts supplier. Posting stories from dead spin just makes your argument weaker.

My job is not to convince ostriches. I've already asked you to wait until he is busted. All I wanted to do is state why a reasonable person like me has decided that he ain't clean.

In Marion Jones case, there was credible proof:
1. Her ex boyfriend testified and said Marion doped
2. Her ex husband testified and said Marion doped
3. As far back as high school she was sanctioned for a doping offence and ended up hiring Johnny Cochran to threaten to sue the school district that was
4. A thorough investigation by USADA exposed her.

But b/4 all this was exposed ostriches were using all the tactics you've displayed here to explain Marion's feats. Why was the word of cheats like her exes accepted when you don't want to accept the word of Victor Conte?

Note that Marion Jones was not busted by rumours such as the ones you are posting here. There was strong circumstantial evidence. No such evidence exists when it comes to Bolt.

Those in the know knew what she was doing b/4 she got busted. Same as Bolt. You've ignored the circumstantial evidence against Bolt, like Blake his training partner getting caught in 2009.

And that is exactly the point ! You yourself have admitted that there is no conclusive evidence. You therefore have no case. People like you come to CE and look down on people who don’t buy into your conspiracy theories while having no evidence

I look down on ostriches who bury their head in the sand. Conclusive evidence comes with confessions and being busted.

There are many CE members who are knowledgable about this sport. When they suspect someone of doping they provide evidence such as an abnormal progression, sudden changes in body size, sudden spikes in performance, past transgressions. You on the other hand have not provided any evidence. In fact you have just admitted that there is no evidence. Were this a court case, the judge would have dismissed your case YW based on your own admission.
I believe there is a 50-50 chance that Bolt is clean because I see no evidence to the contrary. This notion that everyone is doping is bogus. I used think Allison Felix and Tyson Gay were likely doping until I found that they were amongst the first runners to volunteer for the biological passport program as far back as 2009. Now I have reason to believe that there is a good chance that they are clean.

I've told you to read what has been posted b/4 running your mouth. You seem to be more knowledgeable about the sport than the Jamo coach I quoted, than Victor Conte, than even Carl Lewis - whom I quoted about the difference in Bolt's performance in 2007/08. I could point to changes in body size too if you want. So it is now 50/50 that Bolt is cheating? It didn't sound that way when you were propagating your nonsense about why Jamos are so fast, including drug cheats like Christie and Ottey in your rationalisations!

[cic old boy]

CIC is the only one talking sense here, the jamaicans are frauds.

Its easy for top athletes with money to pass "tests" http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids

Don't mind the ostriches.

[okjazz]

Absolute BS. I told you why Jamos prefer to stay at home. You disagreed. We've heard the evidence from an experienced Jamo track and field coach, who himself went through the US collegiate system.

Here you are telling a plain lie and twisting facts. You did not say Jamaicans prefer to stay at home. You said they would like to go to the US but the Balco scandal has reduced the number of scholarships available. I was the 1st person to say Jamaicans prefer to stay at home. But the reason has nothing to do with Balco

You claim you know more about the issue than him! Forgive me if I'd rather listen to him than you!

I don’t claim to know more than him. His assertion about Balco reducing the funding available is bogus and without merit. The number of scholarships available to Jamaican runners has not been reduced at all.
And his assertion that New York Tech and San Jose state were powerhouses before the Balco scandal is utter nonensense. None of these schools have been powerhouses in the last 20 years.

So you want the article to provide a spreadsheet showing the athletics budget for all US colleges year-on-year for about a 20 year period? I don't even know how anyone with a brain can doubt the effect of a scandal like Balco.

This is fairly simple. The notion that Jamaicans are no longer being offered scholarships is false. I have provided conclusive proof that the top Jamaicans are still offered scholarships if they choose to take them. Bolt and VCB were both offered scholarships. Bolt declined and VCB took up the offer. This is fairly straightforward proof that the coach is wrong.

You really don't understand the point. Why don't you read the article? Jamos are no longer finding the US attractive. One of the reasons provided by a Jamo coach is Balco causing funding to dry up.

You are the one who does not get. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT FUNDING HAS BEEN REDUCED. I have proven multiple times that Jamaican runners are still being offered scholarships. On top of that Zimabwean and Kenyan sprinters have been offered scholarships.
Answer this basic question that you seem to be avoiding : If funding has been reduced as ypu claim then how come there are still plenty of scholarships available ??

This just confirms you don't get it. I told you one of the reasons they stay at home. You said it ain't so. I presented evidence from a Jamo coach.

Balco has absolutely nothing to do with college funding. If you provide an article from a US college or an American media outlet that says that funding has been reduced because of balco then you have a case.

Read the article and stop this nonsense! The claim is that colleges that were "traditionally" a powerhouse have cut their athletic programmes. It is implicit in the comment that the powerhouse status is now in the past!

You are so clueless: Balco happened less than 10 years ago. San Jose State has not been a powerhouse in the last 20 -30 years. New York tech HAS NOT had a track team in the last 10 years. To suggest that New York tech scaled down their program because of Balco is simply a lie. There is no record of New York Tech having a powerhouse track program this decade. In fact I dont see evidence that they even had a track team during the Balco sscandal. How did they reduce funding from something that did not exist ? Balco clearly did not cause a reduction in funding at NYT or SJS. If San Jose State and NYT were powerhouses until 2003 then reduced funding after Balco then that article you posted would make sense. But because none of them were ever powerhouses when Balco happened then it proves that article is nonsense and the coach does not have a clue. He has gotten his timing wrong as have you.

The man said that those out of competition samples are collected mainly b/w competitions during the European track circuit from May till Sept each year. He said it was a waste of time and similar to testing during competitions in which hardly any top athlete is caught. He was talking about NO ROUTINE OFFSEASON TESTING and you are posting rubbish about out of competition testing!

You are splitting hairs and talking nonsense. There is really no difference between off season testing and out of competition testing. As far at IAAF is concerned they are really the same thing because IAAF does testing ALL YEAR ROUND.

It doesn't happen in the Caribbean b/c they have no independent anti-doping body.

Another lie. IAAF and WADA does testing in the Carribbean all year round. I have provided the evidence of this and there are statements about this. As far back as 1992, IAAF agents visited John Ngugi's farm demanding a urine sample. This was several months before the season started. THIS MEANS THAT IAAF HAS BEEN DOING ROUTINE OFF SEASON TESTING FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS NOW.

But Jamaica has no independent anti-doping body and IAAF efforts b/w competitions are a joke! No wonder Jamos stay at home and are beating everybody!

So what ? Most countries do not have an independent body for testing. But the fact remains that IAAF testing and WADA testing ensures that Jamaicans are tested year round.

He called the 2008 final a farce. He said nobody is testing Jamaicans at home. His comments echo what Conte said. Carl Lewis said something similar. But for you it is all "baseless lies with no evidence"! How come the UK/US have independent anti-doping bodies and Jamaica doesn't? Is this to the advantage of juiced up athletes

These are baseless lies because there is no evidence, . Anybody can say anything just like you are posting plenty of clap trap here without any evidence. You yourself have admitted you have no evidence which means your credibility is zero
Let Unger and other clowns provide credible evidence first before we can entertain them. No one besides you is inetersted in rumour mongering.

I live in Europe and you know nothing about how big Bolt is here. He is no longer a track and field star. He has transcended the sport. Put him on the cover of your publication and he shifts units. Have him fronting your product and you get positive returns. He is the figurehead of track and field right now. If he is caught doping, the sport would struggle to recover.

In America Bolt is popular but not much of an issue. In fact the whole sport of athletics has gotten a short shrift during these Olympics. So the notion that American journalists might be protecting Bolt is bogus. In fact American journalists have every incentive to expose Bolt. You can write a book and make plenty of $$$ with such an exposee.
As for Europe, I am sure there are plenty of substitutes for Bolt if he leaves. Magazines and newspapers were sold before Bolt emerged. When he leaves, someone else will simply step in.

Track and field is all about Bolt. The marquee event at the Olympics is the 100m. Bolt is The Man. Expose him as a cheat and the sport is on its last legs. So most in the media would rather milk the fairytale for all it's worth.

Nonesense. This still does not prove that all the journalists in the world are protecting Bolt. As I have said a dozen times above, there are plenty of investigative journalists who are more interested in glory and money. They don’t care about Bolt or the sport of athletics.

You don't know how the mainstream media works. Do you know how many stories are spiked b/c it is not in the corporate interests of the owners? Do you know how many journos swallow their pride and accept their best works to be spiked so that they can continue to work in the industry? Do you think that when people like Marion Jones were getting juiced up the truth was not leaked out to the media and many decided not to touch it? Stories are killed everyday by editors for a variety of reasons that I don't have the time to explain here.

This is rubbish. People indeed investigated Marion Jones. When legitimate evidence appeaered about Marion Jones , it was published. The first piece of evidence against Marion Jones was that her ex husband had testified to a grand jury that she was doping. When this was leaked to the media, it was published. It is simply a lie to suggest that the media protected marion Jones.


Your problem is that you want people write rumours about Bolt for the benefit of gossipers such yourself, even though there is no evidence of doping on his part, In essence you want them to manufacture stories. I am sure that as was the case with marion Jones, if credible evidence appears that implicates Bolt, it will be published.

As we speak, there are several journos who know the truth about Bolt, including Jamo journos, who have either decided the time is not right to speak, or whose editors have decided it is not in the publication's interest to publish, or they have decided that b/c of his profile, it is best that they continue digging until all traces of plausible deniability are removed.

Nobody knows anything about Bolt doping. You yourself have admitted that you do not have a shred of evidence that Bolt is doping. So quit twisting the lies and distorting facts. Until you present valid evidence, you have no case.

You don't even know what "evidence" means! It doesn't mean something that satisfies an ostrich!

I don’t have to know what it means. You have already admitted that you don’t have a shred of evidence that proves Bolt is doping.

My job is not to convince ostriches. I've already asked you to wait until he is busted. All I wanted to do is state why a reasonable person like me has decided that he ain't clean.

What a joke. You are convicting Bolt then telling us to wait until evidence is provided what a joke.

Its like a prosecutor asking a judge to send a criminal to jail. When the judge asks him for evidence of the crime , CIC the prosecutor says “ Wait until we get evidence. At that point CIC the prosectutor will be fired for sheer incompetence and for not understanding how the law works.

But b/4 all this was exposed ostriches were using all the tactics you've displayed here to explain Marion's feats. Why was the word of cheats like her exes accepted when you don't want to accept the word of Victor Conte?

I don’t know who those Ostriches were. But I am sure that you did not come on CE and tell people that marion Jones was doping. You are one of those people who tries to look clever in hindsight. You claim that you knew all along that Marion Jones was doping which is simply a lie. You knew nothing. In fact nobody knew anything until the evidence was finally released and the media published it.

Those in the know knew what she was doing b/4 she got busted. Same as Bolt. You've ignored the circumstantial evidence against Bolt, like Blake his training partner getting caught in 2009.

You have not posted any evidence at all against Bolt. Having a partner who dopes is not proof of anything. If you took this evidence to a court of law , the judge would fire you for being flat out incompetent. Everyone has had co-workers who cut corners and intentionally do shoddy work. Does that mean they are all guilty of curring corners ?

I've told you to read what has been posted b/4 running your mouth. You seem to be more knowledgeable about the sport than the Jamo coach I quoted, than Victor Conte, than even Carl Lewis - whom I quoted about the difference in Bolt's performance in 2007/08. I could point to changes in body size too if you want.

There is absolutely nothing you posted here that amounts to evidence. I have already told you that posting articles from agenda driven blogs like deadspin is utter nonsense and cannot stand up in a court of law. Only people intersted in gossip use blogs that dont provide evidence. Most people look for facts and evidence.

So it is now 50/50 that Bolt is cheating?

I have always maintained that I don’t know if Bolt is doping. I will continue to watch him until conclusive evidence is provided. I see no signs that Bolt is doping and most people who know the sport do not have viable suspicions.
I am not intersted in listening or believing gossipers and rumour mongerers like you. Until you provide conclusive proof, then you are nothing but a gossiper.

It didn't sound that way when you were propagating your nonsense about why Jamos are so fast, including drug cheats like Christie and Ottey in your rationalisations!

The fact remains that Jamaica has always produced world class sprinters which negates the whole premise of this thread that Jamaica is only now suddenly producing world class runners.

[cic old boy]

Here you are telling a plain lie and twisting facts. You did not say Jamaicans prefer to stay at home. You said they would like to go to the US but the Balco scandal has reduced the number of scholarships available. I was the 1st person to say Jamaicans prefer to stay at home. But the reason has nothing to do with Balco

Was I not talking earlier about splitting hairs? They prefer to stay at home b/c the US collegiate system ain't what it used to be! I said they no longer "fancy" the US. I said funding has dried up b/c of Balco. I supported this with evidence from a Jamo coach. He should know. He is the expert, not you!

I don’t claim to know more than him. His assertion about Balco reducing the funding available is bogus and without merit. The number of scholarships available to Jamaican runners has not been reduced at all.
And his assertion that New York Tech and San Jose state were powerhouses before the Balco scandal is utter nonensense. None of these schools have been powerhouses in the last 20 years.

He is Jamaican. He is a former athlete. He went through the US collegiate system. He is a veteran coach. And you are??? Do you know what "traditionally" means???

This is fairly simple. The notion that Jamaicans are no longer being offered scholarships is false. I have provided conclusive proof that the top Jamaicans are still offered scholarships if they choose to take them. Bolt and VCB were both offered scholarships. Bolt declined and VCB took up the offer. This is fairly straightforward proof that the coach is wrong.

He didn't say there were no more scholarships! Read the damn article and quit this embarrassing bout of incomprehension! The claim is that in the past the majority went to the US. Now it has changed. He then gave the reason for the change - funding ain't what it used to be. He gave examples of colleges that have rolled back their athletics programmes.

You are the one who does not get. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT FUNDING HAS BEEN REDUCED. I have proven multiple times that Jamaican runners are still being offered scholarships. On top of that Zimabwean and Kenyan sprinters have been offered scholarships.

You have only proven your incomprehension. The man said things ain't what it used to be. He said Jamos used to go through the US system. He said they no longer do so b/c of funding drying up due to Balco. He didn't say there was no longer a dime available. The man is eminently qualified to speak on the subject. You are not!

Answer this basic question that you seem to be avoiding : If funding has been reduced as ypu claim then how come there are still plenty of scholarships available ??

Doh! Reduction, even significant reduction, doesn't mean no funding! If you earn £100 a day and it is reduced to $50, does it mean you are no longer paid?

Balco has absolutely nothing to do with college funding. If you provide an article from a US college or an American media outlet that says that funding has been reduced because of balco then you have a case.

You are getting desperate to avoid accepting you are wrong. Do you honestly believe that a big scandal does not affect the willingness of backers to provide funding? Take the EPL for e.g. flush with funding from corporate sponsors. Do you think if it was exposed that the league was rife with corruption that many top brands would want to be associated with the league?

You are so clueless: Balco happened less than 10 years ago. San Jose State has not been a powerhouse in the last 20 -30 years. New York tech HAS NOT had a track team in the last 10 years. To suggest that New York tech scaled down their program because of Balco is simply a lie. There is no record of New York Tech having a powerhouse track program this decade. In fact I dont see evidence that they even had a track team during the Balco sscandal. How did they reduce funding from something that did not exist ? Balco clearly did not cause a reduction in funding at NYT or SJS. If San Jose State and NYT were powerhouses until 2003 then reduced funding after Balco then that article you posted would make sense. But because none of them were ever powerhouses when Balco happened then it proves that article is nonsense and the coach does not have a clue. He has gotten his timing wrong as have you.

So San Jose was a powerhouse b/4? Was NY Tech a powerhouse b/4? Or is it that "there is no record" of them being a powerhouse in this decade? Do you understand simple English? The claim is that they were "traditional powerhouses". This means they used to be powerhouses. They are not powerhouses anymore! So what is your point? The man said they have scaled back their athletics programmes. He attributed it to Balco. You don't know why they scaled back and someone in the know has given you a reason and you are looking for "evidence" and a "record" of this.

You are splitting hairs and talking nonsense. There is really no difference between off season testing and out of competition testing. As far at IAAF is concerned they are really the same thing because IAAF does testing ALL YEAR ROUND.

An expert like Victor Conte clearly drew the distinction b/w off season and out of competition. If you don't get it, read his comments again.

Another lie. IAAF and WADA does testing in the Carribbean all year round. I have provided the evidence of this and there are statements about this. As far back as 1992, IAAF agents visited John Ngugi's farm demanding a urine sample. This was several months before the season started. THIS MEANS THAT IAAF HAS BEEN DOING ROUTINE OFF SEASON TESTING FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS NOW.

You dodged the question whether Jamaica and other Carib nations have independent anti-doping bodies. Conte, Lewis and the German sprinter said this is why Jamo sprinters are not tested off season. I posted a comment from an article from the Washington Post stating this is why there is a cloud of suspicion hovering around Jamo athletes. But you claim there is nothing to worry about b/c the IAAF tested a Kenyan in Kenya in 1992!

So what ? Most countries do not have an independent body for testing. But the fact remains that IAAF testing and WADA testing ensures that Jamaicans are tested year round.

So it is pointless having an independent body in each nation? How many anti-doping staff do you have at IAAF and WADA HQs to ensure they can go round each country on earth over 12 months?

These are baseless lies because there is no evidence, . Anybody can say anything just like you are posting plenty of clap trap here without any evidence. You yourself have admitted you have no evidence which means your credibility is zero

Once again you demonstrate that you don't know what "evidence" means.

Let Unger and other clowns provide credible evidence first before we can entertain them. No one besides you is inetersted in rumour mongering.

It is not their job to satisfy ostriches.

In America Bolt is popular but not much of an issue. In fact the whole sport of athletics has gotten a short shrift during these Olympics. So the notion that American journalists might be protecting Bolt is bogus. In fact American journalists have every incentive to expose Bolt. You can write a book and make plenty of $$$ with such an exposee.
As for Europe, I am sure there are plenty of substitutes for Bolt if he leaves. Magazines and newspapers were sold before Bolt emerged. When he leaves, someone else will simply step in.

You don't know how the media works. Take News Corp for e.g. It is a global corporation with interests in the US, Europe, Australia, etc. Shifting units in the UK helps the parent company's bottom line. Right now, you'd struggle to find an editor willing to fund any investigative work on Bolt. Do you think someone like Carl Lewis casting aspersions about Bolt is not raising eyebrows in newsrooms? There is likely to be several investigative hounds asking to be unleashed on Bolt. It would probably involve spending months in Jamaica, possibly going undercover, involving a big slice of the news budget, but editors are making the call to hold fire. When the evidence on his doping becomes overwhelming, you'd find that the mainstream media would be playing catch up, as the story is likely to break in smaller and more independent outlets that are not as concerned about the bottom line and advertising revenue.

Nonesense. This still does not prove that all the journalists in the world are protecting Bolt. As I have said a dozen times above, there are plenty of investigative journalists who are more interested in glory and money. They don’t care about Bolt or the sport of athletics.

Very simplistic view of the media world. Nobody is "protecting" Bolt. What they are protecting is their profit margin. Your investigative hack interested in glory needs money to be able to work. His editor controls the budget. There are hacks out there who know something ain't right about Bolt hiding out in Jamaica, esp when people like Carl Lewis open their mouths and question stuff. But they need money to go out to Jamaica and a budget to pay informants. It has to be approved by higher-ups.

This is rubbish. People indeed investigated Marion Jones. When legitimate evidence appeaered about Marion Jones , it was published. The first piece of evidence against Marion Jones was that her ex husband had testified to a grand jury that she was doping. When this was leaked to the media, it was published. It is simply a lie to suggest that the media protected marion Jones.

Do you understand the point you are disputing? Did Jones start doping when her ex testified against her? She was blowing the competition away, but the media kept quiet about her doping.

Your problem is that you want people write rumours about Bolt for the benefit of gossipers such yourself, even though there is no evidence of doping on his part, In essence you want them to manufacture stories. I am sure that as was the case with marion Jones, if credible evidence appears that implicates Bolt, it will be published.

Do you know what "evidence" means? Who decides the credibility of the evidence? An ostrich?

Nobody knows anything about Bolt doping. You yourself have admitted that you do not have a shred of evidence that Bolt is doping. So quit twisting the lies and distorting facts. Until you present valid evidence, you have no case.

And you know that nobody knows anything about Bolt's doping on what basis? So Bolt doesn't know about his own doping? What about the guy that injects him? What about his coach? What about his training partner Blake who was busted in 2009?

I don’t have to know what it means. You have already admitted that you don’t have a shred of evidence that proves Bolt is doping.

I know he is on the juice, but I know ostriches have to wait until he fails a test. Even then they may want to accept the explanation that it was something in his ginseng tea, or being with his gyal just b/4 he was tested meant an increase in his testesterone levels.

What a joke. You are convicting Bolt then telling us to wait until evidence is provided what a joke.

I only asked ostriches to wait till he fails a test.

Its like a prosecutor asking a judge to send a criminal to jail. When the judge asks him for evidence of the crime , CIC the prosecutor says “ Wait until we get evidence. At that point CIC the prosectutor will be fired for sheer incompetence and for not understanding how the law works.

I didn't ask you to convict anyone! Since when did ostriches judge cases? I said you should stop rationalising the Bolt phenomenon with crap like Jamos always being talented sprinters, esp when you use druggies like Linford and Ottey as e.g.s

I don’t know who those Ostriches were. But I am sure that you did not come on CE and tell people that marion Jones was doping. You are one of those people who tries to look clever in hindsight. You claim that you knew all along that Marion Jones was doping which is simply a lie. You knew nothing. In fact nobody knew anything until the evidence was finally released and the media published it.

Why don't do a search here on all the stuff I called b/4 it happened. Just b/c you didn't know about Marion Jones till after the fact, doesn't mean that I didn't know. What next? I didn't know Ben Johnson was on the juice till he got busted?

You have not posted any evidence at all against Bolt. Having a partner who dopes is not proof of anything. If you took this evidence to a court of law , the judge would fire you for being flat out incompetent. Everyone has had co-workers who cut corners and intentionally do shoddy work. Does that mean they are all guilty of curring corners ?

You really don't know how the law works. Evidence that Blake was on the juice is not "proof" that Bolt uses drugs. It is evidence that increases the likelihood that Bolt is doping. Circumstantial evidence is used to build a picture. It is not used on its own. This is why I keep saying that you don't know what "evidence" means. It is wrong to claim that there is no evidence against Bolt. You could say quite rightly that there isn't conclusive evidence.

There is absolutely nothing you posted here that amounts to evidence. I have already told you that posting articles from agenda driven blogs like deadspin is utter nonsense and cannot stand up in a court of law. Only people intersted in gossip use blogs that dont provide evidence. Most people look for facts and evidence.

Find out what "evidence" means and we can talk. Carl Lewis has an "agenda". Victor Conte has an "agenda". The German athlete has an "agenda". Those blogs have an "agenda". Did you notice that you have not used any evidence to proclaim that all these people have an "agenda"?

I have always maintained that I don’t know if Bolt is doping. I will continue to watch him until conclusive evidence is provided. I see no signs that Bolt is doping and most people who know the sport do not have viable suspicions.
I am not intersted in listening or believing gossipers and rumour mongerers like you. Until you provide conclusive proof, then you are nothing but a gossiper.

You don't know if he is doping? You didn't sound like someone who was unsure when you were acting like his defence counsel. So people like Carl Lewis, the German athlete, Victor Conte, etc do not know the sport?

The fact remains that Jamaica has always produced world class sprinters which negates the whole premise of this thread that Jamaica is only now suddenly producing world class runners.

They've also always produced world class steroid-abusers like Ben Johnson, Linford Christie, Merlene Ottey, etc. Sooner or later an even bigger name would join that Hall of Shame.

[smartbrother]

I have always maintained that I don’t know if Bolt is doping. I will continue to watch him until conclusive evidence is provided. I see no signs that Bolt is doping and most people who know the sport do not have viable suspicions.

Im not following this long winded argument but the above is correct and sounds like a sensible position to hold. It is quite frankly daft to cite Lewis and conte's insinuations as credible evidence against Bolt. What about people like Michael Johnson and countless others who also know (and are still relevant) to the sport who have nothing but praise for him? Its also a daft to suggest theres a media conspiracy to protect bolt. The minute any credible evidence surfaces to suggest he is doping there'll be a race to break such a massive story. Ofcourse there's always a hint of suspicion around amazing feats in track and field. Until legitimate allegations (i.e not the blanket accusations of bad belle or discredited folks like carl lewis and conte) emerge he deserves full credit for his amazing achievements.

[Riversboy]

I have always maintained that I don’t know if Bolt is doping. I will continue to watch him until conclusive evidence is provided. I see no signs that Bolt is doping and most people who know the sport do not have viable suspicions.

Im not following this long winded argument but the above is correct and sounds like a sensible position to hold. It is quite frankly daft to cite Lewis and conte's insinuations as credible evidence against Bolt. What about people like Michael Johnson and countless others who also know (and are still relevant) to the sport who have nothing but praise for him? Its also a daft to suggest theres a media conspiracy to protect bolt. The minute any credible evidence surfaces to suggest he is doping there'll be a race to break such a massive story. Ofcourse there's always a hint of suspicion around amazing feats in track and field. Until legitimate allegations (i.e not the blanket accusations of bad belle or discredited folks like carl lewis and conte) emerge he deserves full credit for his amazing achievements.

RB.

[cic old boy]

Im not following this long winded argument but the above is correct and sounds like a sensible position to hold. It is quite frankly daft to cite Lewis and conte's insinuations as credible evidence against Bolt. What about people like Michael Johnson and countless others who also know (and are still relevant) to the sport who have nothing but praise for him? Its also a daft to suggest theres a media conspiracy to protect bolt. The minute any credible evidence surfaces to suggest he is doping there'll be a race to break such a massive story. Ofcourse there's always a hint of suspicion around amazing feats in track and field. Until legitimate allegations (i.e not the blanket accusations of bad belle or discredited folks like carl lewis and conte) emerge he deserves full credit for his amazing achievements.

The Curse of Dumbro strikes again. Hardly surprising that several things are wrong with what you wrote.

1. Carl Lewis and Conte are not cited as "credible evidence" that Bolt is on roids. What they pointed out is the fact that Jamaica has no independent anit-doping body and that IAAF testing is a joke.

2. What about Michael Johnson? What about him indeed! Was he as clean as a whistle?

3. So the job of the media is to wait for "credible evidence" to "surface"? Nope, investigative journalism is about unearthing the "credible evidence". You see, when several people suggest something fishy is going on in Jamaica and it is a fact that they don't have an independent anti-doping body, investigative journalists usually start snooping around. If they are not doing this, it is an indication of a lack of will.

[smartbrother]

investigative journalists usually start snooping around. If they are not doing this, it is an indication of a lack of will.

And your evidence investigative journalists are not snooping around is what exactly?

[cic old boy]

And your evidence investigative journalists are not snooping around is what exactly?

You know what "if" means, right?

[smartbrother]

Its also a daft to suggest theres a media conspiracy to protect bolt. The minute any credible evidence surfaces to suggest he is doping there'll be a race to break such a massive story.

So the job of the media is to wait for "credible evidence" to "surface"? ... investigative journalists usually start snooping around. If they are not doing this, it is an indication of a lack of will.

And your evidence investigative journalists are not snooping around is what exactly?

You know what "if" means, right?

"If" as in you do not know that investigative journalists are not actively looking into Bolt. So...why exactly did you challenge the original point that the idea of a media consipiracy to protect him is absurd? Honestly Its no surprise your life is an abject failure spent in a cubicle debating on the internet. Your passion for directionless argument like the one above clearly knows no bounds

[Mr. Piffington]

Its also a daft to suggest theres a media conspiracy to protect bolt. The minute any credible evidence surfaces to suggest he is doping there'll be a race to break such a massive story.

So the job of the media is to wait for "credible evidence" to "surface"? ... investigative journalists usually start snooping around. If they are not doing this, it is an indication of a lack of will.

And your evidence investigative journalists are not snooping around is what exactly?

You know what "if" means, right?

"If" as in you do not know that investigative journalists are not actively looking into Bolt. So...why exactly did you challenge the original point that the idea of a media consipiracy to protect him is absurd? Honestly Its no surprise your life is an abject failure spent in a cubicle debating on the internet. Your passion for directionless argument like the one above clearly knows no bounds

[rock3t]

You people obviously know nothing about Track and field! the athlees dont dope too close at the olympics! they use the steroids, EPO and HGH during the intense training from October to November the year BEFORE the big competition, the gains they make in strength and speed will serve them in August (now at the games) the "drug test" is actually an IQ test!

read what Charlie Francis (who knows everything about PEDs) have to say about this.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... ie_francis

Charlie Francis : If anyone is clean, it's going to be the losers.

[rock3t]

Stop being naive guys. Bolt,Gay, Yohan Blake, Gatlin, Mike Rodgers, yes all the guys you see on the circuit making money are on drugs!

[soothsayer]

Stop being naive guys. Bolt,Gay, Yohan Blake, Gatlin, Mike Rodgers, yes all the guys you see on the circuit making money are on drugs!

so Nigeria can't even cheat or dope properly, we can't even do wrong , right!!!!!!!!!!!!
uselessss, even bad belling others only highlights how inept Nigeria is... give it up

[Comrade Machel]

So it begs the question if every prominent athlete is doping, then why are the Jamaicans excelling others. Afterall the doping will only be a leveller (if everyone is doing it). How then do we explain the Jamaican dominance

[cic old boy]

"If" as in you do not know that investigative journalists are not actively looking into Bolt. So...why exactly did you challenge the original point that the idea of a media consipiracy to protect him is absurd? Honestly Its no surprise your life is an abject failure spent in a cubicle debating on the internet. Your passion for directionless argument like the one above clearly knows no bounds

Dumbro, your stupidity is on steroids.

I explained what investigative journos "usually" do and said IF they are not doing it, then it means there is no will to investigate. And this means to you that I have evidence that they are not doing it!

[cic old boy]

So it begs the question if every prominent athlete is doping, then why are the Jamaicans excelling others. Afterall the doping will only be a leveller (if everyone is doing it). How then do we explain the Jamaican dominance

They are all juiced up. Some more than others - esp those in countries where random testing is practically non-existent.

[rock3t]

So it begs the question if every prominent athlete is doping, then why are the Jamaicans excelling others. Afterall the doping will only be a leveller (if everyone is doing it). How then do we explain the Jamaican dominance

The Americans have been on a slight disadvantage since the Balco saga. USADA ie the US antidoping agency had to step up after pressure from IAAF. They are now "transparent" you can see how many times athlete A or B gets tested. Even they are helping their athletes to cheat. Tyson Gay for example, who won EVERY singe sprint event in the 2007 championships in Osaka. you would expect the leading 100m and 200m runner at that time to be the most tested athlete right? WRONG! check the 4th quarter in 2007 the year before the games.... http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

Gay was tested 1 time after the championships. when he should had been target tested! what happens before the olympics? the dude runs 9.68! At the same time Usain Bolt from a small caribbean island (with NO independent drug testing ie DO whatever you want!) had a PR of 10.03, breaks the world record in MAY witouth even trying and joggs home the olympic medal and world record, they year after he drops a 9.58. So your telling me dopers who run 9.9 are on drugs but a guy who is running video game times 9.5 is clean(!) - use your heads people.

In 2006 another druggie, Dwain Chambers went to Jamaica to train in bolts group under Glenn Mills( who is close friends with Marion Jones ex coach Trevor Graham aka the king of PEDS). he said in his book that he was there for 8 months, He was never tested not even once and never saw anyone in the group ie Usain Bolt get tested. IAAF dont havethe resources to test every athlete around the globe. The difference between 10.0 and 9.58 seconds is the drugs.

The only reason Jamaica is dominating is because they can get away with more than everyone else combined with extremely gifted athletes under the guidance of a experienced Coach who has the right drug connections.

Victor Conte know everything about peds :

"At the 2001 world championships athletes from a Caribbean country, not Jamaica, told me how a doctor from their team supplied them with testosterone, EPO (erythropoietin) and other kinds of steroids.
"I know, because I went to him and he gave me EPO.

"The same informer tells me now that before Beijing (Olympic Games in 2008) that the Jamaicans were applying the same protocol that I created at BALCO.
Conte, who spent four months in prison for his role in the affair, said he has offered to provide expert insights to the World Anti-

Doping Agency (WADA), only to be turned down.

"I've made myself available, put forward names, addresses, websites, protocols... but you know what they told me? That we can't trust someone who's been sentenced," he added.
Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/all-syd ... z23FrRa8OY

sadly for some hard headed gullible ones, it will take a failed test by bolt for them to start crying. remember Marion Jones passed over 160 tests. She had to ADMIT to taking drugs.