Make this Jamaicans go sit down

[ohsee]

As i said i think Bolt is clean. But part me doubts it because these bunch of athletes are almost 3 seconds faster than the 1900 ones and that is highly suspect to me

Bros, your thinking Bolt is clean is not rational. Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Tim Montgomery, and Justin Gatlin, who set "impossible" 9.7 something records before him, were doping. And you think that somehow, Bolt who set a 9.5 record is not? Come on. If you believe that Bolt does it because he is "a freak of nature," you must believe in the tooth fairy too.

[Riversboy]

My own question is, where/how can we get the good juice and the good maskers for our Naija athletes? We sef need medal.

RB.

[mate]

My own question is, where/how can we get the good juice and the good maskers for our Naija athletes? We sef need medal.

RB.

Interestingly enough, I read in some of the articles cited here that taking performance enhancing drugs is a matter or organization, discipline, and simple common sense. Supposedly it is fairly straight forward how to use them and not get caught. In fact, it was suggested you have to be negligent, even stupid, to get caught.

Most importantly, the evidence suggests that if you don't use dope, you simply cannot compete with those who do. I'm not into moralizing, but in my opinion, that's the most damning aspect of this sordid affair. A clean competitor cannot compete, all because he doesn't want to unduly risk his body and mind.

Unfair. Unethical. A farce.

Cheers, Mate

[folem]

My own question is, where/how can we get the good juice and the good maskers for our Naija athletes? We sef need medal.

RB.

Naija sef de juice. Chioma Ajunwa was breaking track records like no man's business before she was caught. Her Gold medal in LJ sef is suspicious, so u can ask her.

[okjazz]

Most importantly, the evidence suggests that if you don't use dope, you simply cannot compete with those who do. I'm not into moralizing,

Mate
This statement is so false that its not even funny.

It is indeed possible to beat someone who is doping. If the the fastest Nigerian is runnining around 10.20 , giving him dope will not make him go any faster than 9.95. In fact he may only be around 10.20. If you give dope to the fastest Kenyan he still will not beable to go any faster than 10.10. This notion that doping makes you invincible compared to someone who is not doping has no basis in reality.

Mate you keep talking about evidence and still do not provide any of this supposed evidence

[okjazz]

After 5 pages on this thread, no one has posted any true evidence to prove the notion that all runners are on dope or that Bolt is certainly on dope or that there is a media conspiracy to cover doping. All we have is mere speculation.

[Damunk]

After 5 pages on this thread, no one has posted any true evidence to prove the notion that all runners are on dope or that Bolt is certainly on dope or that there is a media conspiracy to cover doping. All we have is mere speculation.

It seems people have a problem accepting that, with or without dope, human beings are getting taller, stronger and faster.

[Mr. Piffington]

After 5 pages on this thread, no one has posted any true evidence to prove the notion that all runners are on dope or that Bolt is certainly on dope or that there is a media conspiracy to cover doping. All we have is mere speculation.

It seems people have a problem accepting that, with or without dope, human beings are getting taller, stronger and faster.

Can you blame anybody for thinking the Jamaicans are doping? Alot of the athletes in the immediate past that have posted astonishing times have been busted or have admitted to doping and now all of a sudden there's a wave of Jamaicans posting even lower times? I must say, even for the most optimistic person it's very strange. I want Bolt and co. to be clean but I can't help but feel something just isn't right about this whole thing.

[mate]

Mate you keep talking about evidence and still do not provide any of this supposed evidence

Reread what I wrote, as I literally stated that there was no direct evidence against Bolt. Hell, for that matter, there is no direct evidence against almost all the athletes right now.

I said that the evidence was circumstantial. Right? I keep using words like suspect, bet, and seems for a reason. At the very least, I believe the evidence strongly infers suspicion. And like I said, if I had to bet the farm, you better believe it would be on Bolt and others being users.

As for doping not giving an unfair advantage over non-dopes, sorry, but you are way off base. With dope, you can build more muscle, train longer and harder, and recover faster. Amongst near equals, the dope will make a difference. I've literally seen this in high school with steroid users. It's a simple eyeball test.

Cheers, Mate

[mate]

After 5 pages on this thread, no one has posted any true evidence to prove the notion that all runners are on dope or that Bolt is certainly on dope or that there is a media conspiracy to cover doping. All we have is mere speculation.

It seems people have a problem accepting that, with or without dope, human beings are getting taller, stronger and faster.

They might be. But drugs too are getting more sophisticated, available, and necessary in many sports. So we still don't know what the delta is between natural ability and the drugs.

I'll say it again: most sports are tainted by the specter of drugs. The NFL. NBA. Hockey. Probably even football. Definitely swimming and running.

Cheers, Mate

[okjazz]

Mate
1. There is NO circumstantial evidence that suggests Bolt is doping. The fact that he is beating known dopers is not any kind of evidence.

2. I never said dope does not confer advantages. I know it does. My beef was the statement from you which said

the evidence suggests that if you don't use dope, you simply cannot compete

This infers that every track and field athlete who wins a medal is doping. This simply cannot be true.
Doping does indeed provide advantages. But people who dont dope can still beat people who are on dope. It does not make you superhuman.

[mate]

This infers that every track and field athlete who wins a medal is doping. This simply cannot be true.

You equally cannot prove the negation of this. But you are dead wrong about circumstantial evidence. This thread laid out patterns of achievement followed up by discoveries or admissions of drug use. I guess we can agree to disagree.

For me, the answer remains elusive...but as I keep saying, I know where I'll bet my money. When I keep reading about Lance Armstrong and his holier than thou denials, my cynicism only deepens.

I'd be more optimistic if an athlete blatantly and openly insisted on subjecting himself to rigorous testing all throughout a cycle of competition, demonstrating consistent achievement. In fact, some NFL linemen who are accused of being fact take this approach...saying it negates having to take drugs to get mass...blasting the hypocrisy of legions of competitors using drugs.

Cheers, Mate

[okjazz]

Mate

There are several athletes at these Olympics for whom circumstantial evidence exists. By evidence I mean stuff that is admissible in court and can actually lead to Bolt facing charges as marion Jones did and Lance Armstrong did.

Such evidence includes

1. Abnormal progression
2. Sudden changes in body size
3. Sudden spikes in performance at an advanced age e.g late 20s
4. Abdnormal growths in chin size (e.g. Marion Jones) and other body parts
4b. Severe skin problems usually found in adolescents
5. Witness testimony
6. Previous doping offences
7. Inconsistent performance
8. Those from a country where women perform much better than men e.g. East Germany in the 70s ,, Russia, China in the early 90s --> This is a sign of systematic doping of women with androgenic drugs.

None of this exists with Bolt

As I said earlier, I dont disagree with those who suspect Bolt. As far as I am concerned, nobody knows the truth. All we can do is speculate. I disagree with those who insist they are sure Bolt is doping and everyone who thinks otherwise is clueless.

[tfco]

After 5 pages on this thread, no one has posted any true evidence to prove the notion that all runners are on dope or that Bolt is certainly on dope or that there is a media conspiracy to cover doping. All we have is mere speculation.

It seems people have a problem accepting that, with or without dope, human beings are getting taller, stronger and faster.

Can you blame anybody for thinking the Jamaicans are doping? Alot of the athletes in the immediate past that have posted astonishing times have been busted or have admitted to doping and now all of a sudden there's a wave of Jamaicans posting even lower times? I must say, even for the most optimistic person it's very strange. I want Bolt and co. to be clean but I can't help but feel something just isn't right about this whole thing.

ditto

[folem]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/

Victor Conte claims many athletes used performance-enhancing drugs
in preparation for 2012 London Olympics



Victor Conte expected controversy when he arrived in London on Aug. 3, headed for the Olympic Games. He found it this week, after he openly criticized Olympic drug testing and was quoted by the Times of London as saying he thought that 60% of the athletes were using banned drugs and that the International Olympic Committee was ill-prepared to do anything about it.

Conte, the BALCO mastermind who has provided nutrition and training advice to bronze-medal boxer Marlen Esparza, says what he actually told the Times was a little different. “What I actually said,” Conte said Friday, “was that of the top 20 athletes in each Olympic event, about 60% have used performance-enhancing drugs in the previous year during their preparations for the Games.”

That, Conte said, “got translated into me saying 60% of Olympic athletes use drugs. What I do believe is there is rampant use of synthetic testosterone during training. I believe athletes are microdosing with patches, creams, even injections that clear the system fast.

They can use EPO during training, too. Nobody shows up and does these drugs at the Olympics.”

Conte’s comments drew a response from his sometime ally, former World Anti-Doping Agency president and IOC delegate d#$% Pound, who told Sports Illustrated that while it was not quite right that the IOC is working with Conte, he does listen to what Conte has to say about doping.

“(Conte) has been part of that scene, so I always thought he would be a very good source,” Pound told S.I. “I haven’t been able to persuade the current WADA management that they should take advantage of this; the guy was part of BALCO, so he’s tainted forever. I find him knowledgeable and helpful.”

Conte said Friday that before the Olympics began he sent Pound a list of six track athletes he believed should be tested with a sophisticated testing procedure known as carbon isotope ratio (CIR), which detects exogenous testosterone that the WADA testing regimen misses. “I have reason to believe that these athletes have used PEDs,” Conte said. “I have enormous respect for Mr. Pound and do believe that he passed along my recommendations to other WADA officials. It now seems to me that WADA basically ignored my recommendations and did not target CIR test samples from these athletes.”

The issue of drug use arose again this week with the historic performance by the Jamaican team in the 100- and 200-meter sprints. Usain Bolt’s gold-medal performance in the 200 was followed by Yohan Blake’s silver and Warren Weir’s bronze. Weir has sliced nearly six-tenths of a second off his personal best in the last year, while Blake was banned for three months in 2009 by Jamaica’s anti-doping agency for testing positive for a stimulant.

Even IOC president Jacques Rogge got into the fray, saying Bolt is not the legend that Carl Lewis is in Olympic track, which reminded everyone of Lewis’ recent comments questioning the Jamaican drug-testing program. Then there was Pound.

Bolt “makes me skeptical,” Pound told SI. “I would never go out and say I’m suspicious of his results, but they’re so remarkable that even though he is 6-foot-whatever-he-is and runs like a cat rather than a tank in the old steroidal model, the improvement is so far off the curve that you have to wonder if it’s entirely natural. I hope it is — but you wonder. That’s the price you pay for allowing this doping to get out of control.”

Conte agrees — and he points out that he is hardly the only 2012 Olympic adviser with drug ties.

There is Mark Block, the former track agent who is in the second year of a 10-year suspension for doping athletes, and whose wife, Zhanna Pintusevich-Block, was hit with a two-year doping suspension in 2011. Block is in London supporting U.S. sprinter Carmelita Jeter.

Bolt, meanwhile, has worked recently with Angel Hernandez, the trainer formerly known as Angel (Memo) Heredia. Hernandez was a key government witness in the BALCO case against track coach Trevor Graham. Hernandez testified during Graham’s 2008 trial that he provided banned substances to disgraced Olympians Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery and other athletes. In a 2008 interview with The New York Times, Hernandez acknowledged that he had helped clients use performance-enhancing drugs and avoid detection.

For Conte, the message is simple. If you want to clean up doping, you’ve got to clean up the testing.

“They’re continuing to use drugs,” Conte said. “If you do intense training from October through January, which is the offseason, in conjunction with testosterone or EPO, the gains you make in strength and speed will serve you in August.”

[phantomjournalist]

The Conte fellow just wants his name back in the media. Yawn.

[marko]

well if the likes of bolt are taking any banned sustance, they surely will be caught out sooner or later

[cic old boy]

I am glad others see that CIC is full of hot air. He likes to look down his nose at anyone who disagrees with him yet he has the most shallow of arguments by anyone on CE. This man has absolutely no clue about athletics. He has not provided a shred of proof to bolster any of his assertions about Bolt.

1. He claims that Bolt is guilty. When challenged for evidence he admits he has none then says "I am waiting for evidence"
2. He claims that Balco caused a reduction in funding among NCAA schools then gives the example of NY Tech. This is so laughable because NYT never been a track powerhouse. Not only that but but they have never had any notable runners. They are not even in division 1. They run in division II and have never won anything in division II. How a school that has never won anything in division II is a powerhouse, only CIC can explain.
2b. He claims that the Balco scandal reduced funding for schools thus reducing scholarships. This is laughable because schools are still offering athletics scholarships to runners from all over the world. No American news outlet has reported that the Balco scandal had anything to do with funding of college sports.
3. He proudly cites people Victor Conte. Neither Conte nor anyone CIC has cited actually have any proof of Bolt doping. They are just gossipping and speculating. But CIC proudly cites them because he loves gossip. He does not like to dwell in facts. Just gossip. Again not a single thing CIC has said about Bolt is factual.
4. Notice that nothing CIC has said on this thread about Bolt is factual. Its all gossip and speculation.
5. He claims that he knew all along that Marion Jones was on dope. Yet there is no evidence that he knew. Just trying to look clever after the fact
6. Predicting that all athletes are on dope without providing is just a self servingf statement. It is used by people who like to look clever after the fact, so that when one athlete is busted, you can puff out your chest and say "You see I told you all athletes are doping". Only clueless people are impressed by people who predict things without providing facts. Heck I could easily predict that Brazil will win the next world cup based on nothing but guesswork and gossip. Then if Brazil wins I can dig up the old thread and puff out my chest saying "You see I told you so"

1. There is circumstantial evidence that Bolt is doping. You have just refused to see it. 3 of his team-mates have been caught using dope. B/4 he won Olympic gold he ran 10.03 the previous year. It should raise questions. According to Balco supplier Angel Heredia, the difference b/w 10.0 and 9.7 is drugs. By a strange quirk of fate, Heredia was engaged by Bolt. You have dismissed this, claiming you want to read it from the mainstream media. A CBS journo has written about it (see thread started by Cmoke).

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=223820

2. I said the Balco scandal is one reason for Jamos not going to America b/c the scandal has meant that many colleges have scaled back their programmes. I supported this with evidence from the horse’s mouth – a Jamo coach. The talk about NY Tech came from the Jamo coach who called them a “traditional” powerhouse. The man was a product of the US collegiate system. I take his evidence over that of a nonentity on the internet.

2b. A Jamo coach has told you why they no longer go to the US. He gave the Balco scandal as part of the reason. Anyone with half a brain should know that a big scandal would have an effect on funding as many sponsors wouldn’t want to be tainted by the scandal. A reduction in funding does not mean funding has totally dried up.

3. Conte spoke about the fact that Jamo athletes are rarely tested off-season. This is not “gossip”. It is also circumstantial evidence that Bolt could be doping. The claim is supported by Lewis, d#$% Pound, etc.

4. The guy from CBS who repeated most of what I said did not call it “gossip”, but said it was a “preponderance of evidence” that should create a “chorus of doubt” over Bolt’s performance. Remember I told you earlier that you don’t know what “evidence” means?

5. Just b/c Marion Jones fooled ostriches like you, doesn’t mean she fooled me.

Remember what I said about the mainstream media and willingness to peddle fairytales about Bolt?
Independent minds covering the Olympics have a responsibility as healthy skeptics. Those working for corporate partners may not have the freedom to tell the truth to viewers, listeners or readers, but those who are not are indeed obligated to do so.
If you understood this, you wouldn’t have posted BS from Seb Coe!

[mke1010]

Mscheeew. What a useless thread. If it were Americans winning you would not open this thread.
The fact that Americans have the audacity to question other nations is laughable. We are talking about the worst offending nation in the world. From baseball to football to track and field to cycling, Americans are far and above the most accomplished cheats when it comes to doping.
Even if Bolt is cheating, the Americans are only pissed cos he isnt being caught. For every Jamaican doping, there are three Americans doping. Jamos are undisputed #1. Deal with it.

[okjazz]

CIC

1. Having team-mates who dope is not circumstantial evidence. If a husband can hide his activities from his wife yet they live in the same house, what makes you think team-mates cannot hide their doping activities from each other. If you brought this “evidence” to a judge he would laugh at you. Sorry try again

2. Sorry but Balco is not one of the reasons why the top Jamaicans are going to the US. No US media outlet is reporting it, The fact that one Jamaican clueless coach is saying it is does not mean anything. This is a man who thinks NYT was a track powerhouse. Talk about clueless

3. Carl Lewis says the Jamaicans are doping but American runners like Bolt and Gatlin what a joker this man is. Using him as a reference point weakens your argument. That statement alone disqualifies Lewis from being objective

By the way: IT IS A LIE TO SAY THAT d#$% POUND SAID THAT JAMAICANS ARE NOT TESTED OFF SEASON.
He said “No, they are one of the groups that are hard to test,”

After all this hemming and hawing for several pages you still haven’t provided a shred of evidence. Heck even in a moment of contrition you admitted you had no evidence

[cic old boy]

CIC

1. Having team-mates who dope is not circumstantial evidence. If a husband can hide his activities from his wife yet they live in the same house, what makes you think team-mates cannot hide their doping activities from each other. If you brought this “evidence” to a judge he would laugh at you. Sorry try again

2. Sorry but Balco is not one of the reasons why the top Jamaicans are going to the US. No US media outlet is reporting it, The fact that one Jamaican clueless coach is saying it is does not mean anything. This is a man who thinks NYT was a track powerhouse. Talk about clueless

3. Carl Lewis says the Jamaicans are doping but American runners like Bolt and Gatlin what a joker this man is. Using him as a reference point weakens your argument. That statement alone disqualifies Lewis from being objective

By the way: IT IS A LIE TO SAY THAT d#$% POUND SAID THAT JAMAICANS ARE NOT TESTED OFF SEASON.
He said “No, they are one of the groups that are hard to test,”

After all this hemming and hawing for several pages you still haven’t provided a shred of evidence. Heck even in a moment of contrition you admitted you had no evidence

Oh dear! Somebody doesn’t know what “circumstantial evidence” means.

Circumstantial Evidence is also known as indirect evidence. It is distinguished from direct evidence, which, if believed, proves the existence of a particular fact without any inference or presumption required. Circumstantial evidence relates to a series of facts other than the particular fact sought to be proved. The party offering circumstantial evidence argues that this series of facts, by reason and experience, is so closely associated with the fact to be proved that the fact to be proved may be inferred simply from the existence of the circumstantial evidence.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... l+Evidence

Having 3 team-mates on the juice is indirect evidence from which you can draw an inference that Bolt is on the juice. Like all other forms of circumstantial evidence, this info, on its own, is not enough to convict. You only demonstrate your ignorance by claiming a judge would laugh at it. No, he wouldn’t. He would most likely ask for more circumstantial evidence to build a picture, in the absence of direct evidence.

You don’t need a US media outlet to tell you that a big scandal affects the willingness of sponsors to cough up the cash!

Carl Lewis did not say Jamaicans are doping. He complained about the testing in the country. The fact is that the US has an independent anti-doping agency that makes life difficult for those trying to cheat.

You must have trouble with basic comprehension. I stated what Conte said about offseason testing in Jamaica and said his claim was supported by d#$% Pound and Lewis. Saying they are “hard to test” supports what Conte said! Jeez!

Where did I admit I had no evidence? I said from the onset you don’t know what “evidence” means.

[Comrade Machel]

If Usain Bolt is doping and were to be caught later, i suspect the IOC will do everything to keep that hidden. Bolt has raised interest in the sprints like noone before and if he is found to be dirty, it will kill any serious interest in subsequent Olympics methinks

[cic old boy]

If Usain Bolt is doping and were to be caught later, i suspect the IOC will do everything to keep that hidden. Bolt has raised interest in the sprints like noone before and if he is found to be dirty, it will kill any serious interest in subsequent Olympics methinks

Bolt himself said it:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sp ... cheat.html

There is a lot riding on the fairytale they are peddling to the naive.