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Pele won those WC titles in an era when football hasn't evolved into the more scientific and technical modern game it is today, not taking anything away from Pele of course cause he's my first on the GOAT list.Scipio Africanus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:17 am Pelé - 3 WC titles, 7 Ballon D'Or
Maradona - 1 WC title, 2 Ballon D'Or
Messi - 1 WC title, 7 Ballon D'Or
Any questions?
.
Bigpokey24 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:29 am https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmU9YosA ... k5N2NlZjQ=
Smh. Fifa is so corrupt
Brilliant! That's exactly how i feel and what I try to tell people trying to label someone the GOAT. That might work in the NFL with Tom Brady but for futbol it's probably best to go with GOAT of your lifetime or generation.mate wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:43 am Ok, my friend who was Pele's teammate said the following, translated from Croatian, comparing Pele to Messi:
Pele was a more complete player than Messi. Pele had a better head, left and right foot, and built the ball better...for me, the best of all.
The term built is literal and doesn't translate as well into English. What it contextually really means is: Pele worked the ball better than Messi. He left a heart in his text to me, as he loved Pele.
A FIFA sports photographer I know also covered Pele back in the day. Of course he too says Pele was the more complete player.
Finally, most folks I surveyed say not to fall into the trap of comparing across many generation. But rather to indeed consider the GOAT of a generation and how they dominated.
Solved, right?
Yet here you are supporting the French who are literally enslaving your fellow black Africans with the CFA and killing their visionary leaders.danfo driver wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:56 amNa here you dey? Typical east african, always sitting on the lap of the white man, hoping that the white man will jog his lap to bounce you.
Massa Massa, I love you
It doesn’t work there either. Tom Brady is in a member of the over protected QB generation.F360 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:43 amBrilliant! That's exactly how i feel and what I try to tell people trying to label someone the GOAT. That might work in the NFL with Tom Brady but for futbol it's probably best to go with GOAT of your lifetime or generation.mate wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:43 am Ok, my friend who was Pele's teammate said the following, translated from Croatian, comparing Pele to Messi:
Pele was a more complete player than Messi. Pele had a better head, left and right foot, and built the ball better...for me, the best of all
The term built is literal and doesn't translate as well into English. What it contextually really means is: Pele worked the ball better than Messi. He left a heart in his text to me, as he loved Pele.
A FIFA sports photographer I know also covered Pele back in the day. Of course he too says Pele was the more complete player.
Finally, most folks I surveyed say not to fall into the trap of comparing across many generation. But rather to indeed consider the GOAT of a generation and how they dominated.
Solved, right?
Kabalega wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:37 amYet here you are supporting the French who are literally enslaving your fellow black Africans with the CFA and killing their visionary leaders.danfo driver wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:56 amNa here you dey? Typical east african, always sitting on the lap of the white man, hoping that the white man will jog his lap to bounce you.
Massa Massa, I love you
Supporting the French? The CFA? Please drink some water and get out there and plough the fooking field like the n1gg3r that you are! When you are done, take a dang shower and put on your kakhi and do what you do best -- "Good morning Sir, welcome! Thank you so much for coming to my land" mate, the discussion is GREATEST player of all time, not BEST player. The latter cannot be determined because, yes, they played in different eras where several elements of the game are not the same. We cannot have them all together playing in their prime. You need to have read my defunct SoccerGOAT blog to see my arguments about this. I will go to my hard drive to find my original posts, and post here.mate wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:58 pmtheDunamis wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:39 pmmate wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:29 pmScipio Africanus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:22 pm By winning one WC on PKs against a fourth string France side? Abeg comot for road.
You’re too smart to narrow it to this. Messi scored twice in what might be the greatest final ever at age 35. On top of the most illustrious club accomplishments, where he played a monster role.
France is the professional side: deep, organized, tactical, fit, with lots of verg good players. Including an extremely lethal Mbappe. Messi willed his Argentina in this one…as he often did for Barcelona, with much better players of course.
I’ve never seen football like Barcelona at its height. Again, generational players. But Messi stood out even among them.
He’s a legitimate GOAT with Pele and Maradona.
The so-called GOAT that needed 2 finals to win a WC final.
The prodigy that could not drag his country by his sheer will and talent and needed to be in his football wheelchair to finally beg, borrow and steal country glory.
He is in the GOAT conversation BUT he is NOT the GOAT. GOATs do GOAT things from their early years and don't need multiple tries to close the deal.
Pele >> Maradona >> Messi
In the day of Pele, players ran 3km-5km per game. Today they hit up to 16km with OT.
Today every player can play the whole field. Pele played against slow, committed defenders in static schemes, albeit they were brutal...but Pele on athleticism was head and shoulders above some pretty weak athletes in many games.
We can romanticize the past, but a deeper and objective look is required. Don't get me wrong, I probably still tip Pele. But this is something needing continued thinking, as Messi just won the WC.
3 WCs? Please. What team can do that anymore? You just saw France do 2 in a row, with a more balanced and complete team with a lethal scorer in Mbappe...yet they couldn't do it, losing to a GOAT.
It's a fun debate. I'm putting my biases aside. Believe me, I wanted France to win...as I considered Argentina dirty and cheating in so many moments in football, including this WC against Holland.
But Messi is a legitimate candidate among the big 3 for GOAT. I will say this: head to head if you magically teleported all 3 of them together...Pele and Maradona would be asking Messi how to train to be so fit, fast, and consistent with top skills for 90 minutes each game.
Come on. The game has changed. Markedly. Factor that.
ohsee wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:05 pmmate, the discussion is GREATEST player of all time, not BEST player. The latter cannot be determined because, yes, they played in different eras where several elements of the game are not the same. We cannot have them all together playing in their prime. You need to have read my defunct SoccerGOAT blog to see my arguments about this. I will go to my hard drive to find my original posts, and post here.mate wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:58 pmtheDunamis wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:39 pmmate wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:29 pmScipio Africanus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:22 pm By winning one WC on PKs against a fourth string France side? Abeg comot for road.
You’re too smart to narrow it to this. Messi scored twice in what might be the greatest final ever at age 35. On top of the most illustrious club accomplishments, where he played a monster role.
France is the professional side: deep, organized, tactical, fit, with lots of verg good players. Including an extremely lethal Mbappe. Messi willed his Argentina in this one…as he often did for Barcelona, with much better players of course.
I’ve never seen football like Barcelona at its height. Again, generational players. But Messi stood out even among them.
He’s a legitimate GOAT with Pele and Maradona.
The so-called GOAT that needed 2 finals to win a WC final.
The prodigy that could not drag his country by his sheer will and talent and needed to be in his football wheelchair to finally beg, borrow and steal country glory.
He is in the GOAT conversation BUT he is NOT the GOAT. GOATs do GOAT things from their early years and don't need multiple tries to close the deal.
Pele >> Maradona >> Messi
In the day of Pele, players ran 3km-5km per game. Today they hit up to 16km with OT.
Today every player can play the whole field. Pele played against slow, committed defenders in static schemes, albeit they were brutal...but Pele on athleticism was head and shoulders above some pretty weak athletes in many games.
We can romanticize the past, but a deeper and objective look is required. Don't get me wrong, I probably still tip Pele. But this is something needing continued thinking, as Messi just won the WC.
3 WCs? Please. What team can do that anymore? You just saw France do 2 in a row, with a more balanced and complete team with a lethal scorer in Mbappe...yet they couldn't do it, losing to a GOAT.
It's a fun debate. I'm putting my biases aside. Believe me, I wanted France to win...as I considered Argentina dirty and cheating in so many moments in football, including this WC against Holland.
But Messi is a legitimate candidate among the big 3 for GOAT. I will say this: head to head if you magically teleported all 3 of them together...Pele and Maradona would be asking Messi how to train to be so fit, fast, and consistent with top skills for 90 minutes each game.
Come on. The game has changed. Markedly. Factor that.
Greatness is determined by extraordinary achievements given the constraints a player had to overcome in his particular era. It is futile to argue that it was easier in Pele's time--you would then need to explain why nobody was doing Pele things in his era, and in previous eras when according to your argument it would have been even easier. What Pele accomplished in his prime is unbelievably extraordinary in any era, any sport and any league. Do your homework.
Your argument is far from objective. You are loading the dice in favour of recency. Transposing your argument to the literary world, David Mamet is greater than William Shakespeare because Mamet operates in a far more competitive and difficult-to-achieve-fame era where greater knowledge is available. David who, you ask. Exactly. Bad argument.
Plus you once met me and know I'm not some pot bellied wanna be! 
airwolex wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:20 am I get where Mate is coming from when he says the footballers now are better but just watch Pele highlights. He is arguably quicker and more athletic than Messi and Maradona. He has a spring that can rival an elite Nba player and he used to execute bicycle kicks for fun, something I have never seen Messi so.
As for pure skills, there is nothing he could not do, as a matter of fact there are somethings he did routinely that the best now just do not do. Oh...he was two footed as well.
For me it is Pele before Messi, then Brazilian Ronaldo and Maradona.
We are too old now to be engaging in this "I know somebody, who knows somebody, who knows so- and-so" argument. Such arguments just produce smiles. theDunamis wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:39 pmmate wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:29 pmScipio Africanus wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:22 pm By winning one WC on PKs against a fourth string France side? Abeg comot for road.
You’re too smart to narrow it to this. Messi scored twice in what might be the greatest final ever at age 35. On top of the most illustrious club accomplishments, where he played a monster role.
France is the professional side: deep, organized, tactical, fit, with lots of verg good players. Including an extremely lethal Mbappe. Messi willed his Argentina in this one…as he often did for Barcelona, with much better players of course.
I’ve never seen football like Barcelona at its height. Again, generational players. But Messi stood out even among them.
He’s a legitimate GOAT with Pele and Maradona.
The so-called GOAT that needed 2 finals to win a WC final.
The prodigy that could not drag his country by his sheer will and talent and needed to be in his football wheelchair to finally beg, borrow and steal country glory.
He is in the GOAT conversation BUT he is NOT the GOAT. GOATs do GOAT things from their early years and don't need multiple tries to close the deal.
Pele >> Maradona >> Messi
ohsee wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:26 pm
mate, you be my very, very good friend, that is why I think I can advise you on this matter.
As for Pele not being part of 1962, if it does not matter, why do you bring it up?
wiseone wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:10 pm The problem with these GOAT discussions is that the rules of football were so different in Pele and Maradona's day that it was almost a different sport. For example:
1) Messi's goal 2nd goal today (and hundreds of his other goals) would have been disallowed for offside 25 years ago (never mind the Pele/Maradona era) because any offside at any point in time, anywhere on the pitch automatically = a free kick. There was no active/inactive or 2nd phase of play etc. e.g. David Beckham scored a brilliant goal from 25 yards out in the 1999 FA Cup semi-final against Arsenal, but the goal was disallowed because a Man Utd player was laying down injured on the floor on the opposite side of the pitch near the touchline (about 20 yards away from where Beckham scored from!).
2) It was harder to score in the 1950s-1980s because GKs could pick up back passes from their defenders. Hence any time a striker closed down a defender, the defender simply passed the ball to his GK who picked up the ball and held on to it.
3) Refereeing is much stricter nowadays and tackles from behind, last man fouls, and studs up tackles = automatic red card. I remember Phil Neville saying that during his career, a two footed studs up tackle on the opposing winger early in the game was considered a fair way of introducing yourself to him! Watch the video below for the shockingly violent fouls that Pele and Maradona had to endure (some of which border on attempted murder). Some of these violent assaults did not even result in free kicks let alone red cards.
Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe et al are far more protected, get far more free kicks and penalties, and play on better pitches. Can you imagine the havoc Pele and Maradona would wreak in modern football with the stricter officiating?
Pele in 1970 was more like Messi in 2022 or Zidane in 2006, the years he was the best were in the 1960s were he barely played in the World Cup.cic old boy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:34 pm Many people proclaiming Pele (who Maradona said belongs in a museum) as the GOAT, including me, only saw highlights. I once watched the full 1970 WC final and it was soooo slow!
The argument of Pele winning 3 WCs comes with caveats. In 1958, he wasn't the star of the team. That was Garrincha, supported by Didi and Vava. In 1962, he got injured after 2 games and Garrincha and Amarildo, Pele's replacement, took over. In 1970, he was the king, but the team had world class talent all over.
How competitive were those WCs? They were essentially Europe/South America championships with only 16 teams. The road to the final was relatively easy.
Contrast that era with today of 24/7 football coverage. I have probably seen about 90% of all Messi's games at Barca, including watching him live at the Camp Nou, and PSG. I've seen his off days, his mistakes, etc. The scrutiny is more today.
People keep shifting the goalposts with Messi. Firstly, he had not done it without Barca. He then won Copa America. They moved to not winning the WC. He then won it, they moved to he only did it at 35 and it's only one win. This was the worst Argentina national team in my lifetime. Some people claim it was Di Maria that made them win. He missed the WC final of 2014 and they lost. He scored in this final and they were cruising 2-0 until he was withdrawn. But he was there in 2010 and 2018.
There is no player in the history of the game that scores as frequently as Messi and creates as much as he does. Is he a midfielder, is he a striker, is he winger? Which other player in history has been on top for for 17 years? The guy has made the abnormal normal. He has made the extraordinary routine.
