Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by txj »

The excellent Tim Vickery on Brazil's exit.

Tim Vickery
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When Brazil crash out of a World Cup it doesn't take long for shock and sadness to be replaced by anger in the country. A villain has to be appointed; usually it is the coach. And, after getting no further than the quarterfinals in two consecutive tournaments, Tite is an easy target.

The knives have extra sharpness this time because of Tite's conduct immediately after Friday's penalty-shootout defeat against Croatia. No, he did not flee the scene, as his harshest critics allege. But after speaking to a few of his players he retreated to the dressing room. Many would have liked to have seen him out on the field at the darkest hour, sharing the pain of his players.

The expectations for Brazil are higher than anywhere else, but yet again the Seleção have fallen at their first meeting with a European side in the knockout stage. And the conquerors keep getting smaller. In 2018, it was Belgium, with a population of under 12 million. This time it was Croatia, with less than four million. So where did it go wrong?

The short answer is that penalties were forced by a moment entirely untypical of the Tite team -- caught out on the counterattack with the team up 1-0 and the finish line in sight, the game sent to a shootout by Bruno Petkovic's goal (Croatia's only shot on target), which needed a deflection to get past goalkeeper Alisson.

The fatal move is being analysed, analysed and analysed again; pressure and extra time can do strange things to a team. Should they press high as usual or drop off? What they should not have done is attempt both at the same time. Croatia built their move in the gaps, where maybe midfielder Casemiro should have been more prudent than to try to win the ball and get the wrong side of Luka Modric.

play
0:57
Moreno: Why was Neymar left on after Brazil's goal?Ale Moreno wasn't impressed by Neymar's display against Croatia, despite his great goal.
But why did it get to this, anyway? Why had Brazil not been able to dispatch Croatia long before, as most had expected?

Injuries did not help -- in two ways. First, they weakened one of the most interesting characteristics of this Brazil side: the attacking press. Neymar was not 100%, playing within himself as he shook off an ankle injury suffered earlier in the tournament. Yet the real problem was that striker Richarlison was clearly struggling. Brazil's No. 9 is the leader of the press and his harrying brought two goals in the previous round against South Korea, but he was carrying a thigh problem.

Brazil had subs warming up after five minutes, but they kept Richarlison on the field. Had Gabriel Jesus been available then he would surely have been thrown on earlier, but the Arsenal striker was yet another injury casualty, and so, without another striker capable of pressing the opposition, Richarlison soldiered on for just over an hour.

This was extremely important. It meant that Croatia could play out from the back in relative comfort and bring their splendid midfielders into the game, from where they could spend plenty of time, if not threatening the Brazil goal, at least dictating the rhythm and running down the clock.

The other area where injuries played a part was at full-back. Left-back Alex Sandro was nowhere near fit enough to start and only played the last 15 minutes, while his reserve Alex Telles had already been ruled out of the tournament. And so first choice right-back Danilo, himself not 100%, moved to the left while centre-back Eder Militao filled in down the right.

play
1:28
What went wrong for Brazil against Croatia?Ale Moreno gives his take on Tite's approach that sees Brazil crashing out again in a World Cup Quarterfinal.
Against massed defences the ability to construct from deep is crucial. Until he tired, Militao attempted heroically to burst forward down his flank, but the team missed the capacity of Alex Sandro to appear in the attacking line as an element of surprise.

There is also a second question, wider and perhaps more interesting. Was the system of play adequate for the competition?

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In the past year and a half Brazil developed a way of playing with two wingers. Raphinha took instantly to international football on the right flank; Vinicius Junior on the left matured into a global star and produced his best Brazil performances to date in this tournament. And then, in the last few months the goal-scoring form of Richarlison forced his inclusion at centre-forward. This collection of attacking talent rolled over South Korea.

But Brazil found it harder in the tougher games. Did this formation leave them light in midfield? This certainly seemed the case against Croatia when, without an aggressive press, Brazil ran the risk of being outnumbered three to two in central areas. And there was also a problem in the construction of the moves. Before the emergence of the wingers, the best aspect of Brazil's attacking play was the link-up between Neymar and Lucas Paqueta.

But afterwards the two of them were often too far apart to combine effectively. It is worth remembering that Neymar's wonderful goal against Croatia was a special moment in both individual and collective terms. Rodrygo had been thrown on to help Brazil play their way through the middle, and Neymar exchanged passes both with him and then -- gloriously -- with Paqueta before going wide on the keeper and scoring a goal that answered any questions that were being posed about his contribution to the cause. Had he spent more time closer to Paqueta, maybe Brazil would have found it easier to break down rival defences.

But even with the injuries, and with possible doubts about the team formation, Brazil appeared to have done enough to get past Croatia and move into the semifinals. One fateful loss of defensive focus and two missed penalties bring Tite's reign to an end two games earlier than he would have liked. His is a cruel departure.

For the second time his team are out after a quarterfinal when they surely deserved more. He knows that plenty of criticism is coming his way, but after the match he declared that he was at peace with himself -- and so he should be. A pair of narrow defeats can't take away the impression that for more than six years he has steered the ship with competence and dignity.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/brazil-bra/ ... s-to-blame
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by cic old boy »

Brazil's problem is down to not producing enough creative midfielders, which may be related to emphasis at home to become more "European" in style. When they got a shellacking from Germany in the semi in WC2014, one Brazilian pundit said the Germans came to the Maracana and taught them how to play football.

What Germany played then was a version of Spanish tiki taka - possession, dictating the tempo and then, with midfielders of the quality of Toni Kroos , the ability to open up massed defences. Brazil has no midfielder at that level. Casemiro, Fred, etc are just water carriers and sideways passers. I said before the WC that this absence of creative midfielders is a weakness. Where are the Brazilian midfielders like Socrates, Falcao and going back to Pele's time, Gerson?
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by Coach »

^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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Brazil coach got stoned on arrival in Brazil
So angry Nigeria got kicked out of the world cup once again, i nearly told my wife that i caught my girlfriend with another man today!

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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by maceo4 »

marko wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:14 pm Brazil coach got stoned on arrival in Brazil
Hopefully he used his new found dancing feet to dodge them…🙄
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:19 pm ^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
Brazil eliminated by Croatia led by a midfield maestro Modric of 37. Brazil don't even have a midfielder as good as Kovacic. Even though he didn't have a good WC, Kevin De Bruyne has helped City dominate in England by being a midfield maestro. Even "game management" is exactly what I said about a midfielder controlling the tempo.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by mate »

cic old boy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:48 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:19 pm ^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
Brazil eliminated by Croatia led by a midfield maestro Modric of 37. Brazil don't even have a midfielder as good as Kovacic. Even though he didn't have a good WC, Kevin De Bruyne has helped City dominate in England by being a midfield maestro. Even "game management" is exactly what I said about a midfielder controlling the tempo.


You hit the nail on the head. I always said Brazil has 2 weakness:

1) A relatively slower spine of Casemiro and Silva.

2) No true orchestrating offensive midfielder like a Modric, Xavi, Iniesta, and Zidane.

Brazil lost to our midfield and defense. We managed to keep it close, playing into our hands because our offense is weak, 1 goal being enough.

Argentina in contrast has Messi to lead and rally round. And actually respected our midfield, laying back, playing the counter to value. We broke down catastrophically on those 1st 2 goals...whereas we didn't against Brazil.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:20 pm
cic old boy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:48 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:19 pm ^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
Brazil eliminated by Croatia led by a midfield maestro Modric of 37. Brazil don't even have a midfielder as good as Kovacic. Even though he didn't have a good WC, Kevin De Bruyne has helped City dominate in England by being a midfield maestro. Even "game management" is exactly what I said about a midfielder controlling the tempo.


You hit the nail on the head. I always said Brazil has 2 weakness:

1) A relatively slower spine of Casemiro and Silva.

2) No true orchestrating offensive midfielder like a Modric, Xavi, Iniesta, and Zidane.

Brazil lost to our midfield and defense. We managed to keep it close, playing into our hands because our offense is weak, 1 goal being enough.

Argentina in contrast has Messi to lead and rally round. And actually respected our midfield, laying back, playing the counter to value. We broke down catastrophically on those 1st 2 goals...whereas we didn't against Brazil.


Completely wrong!

Brazil lost from not respecting the opponent. and fielding unfit players...

Put in an extra MF to start in place of Neymar and they walk that game...
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by mate »

txj wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:44 pm
mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:20 pm
cic old boy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:48 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:19 pm ^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
Brazil eliminated by Croatia led by a midfield maestro Modric of 37. Brazil don't even have a midfielder as good as Kovacic. Even though he didn't have a good WC, Kevin De Bruyne has helped City dominate in England by being a midfield maestro. Even "game management" is exactly what I said about a midfielder controlling the tempo.


You hit the nail on the head. I always said Brazil has 2 weakness:

1) A relatively slower spine of Casemiro and Silva.

2) No true orchestrating offensive midfielder like a Modric, Xavi, Iniesta, and Zidane.

Brazil lost to our midfield and defense. We managed to keep it close, playing into our hands because our offense is weak, 1 goal being enough.

Argentina in contrast has Messi to lead and rally round. And actually respected our midfield, laying back, playing the counter to value. We broke down catastrophically on those 1st 2 goals...whereas we didn't against Brazil.


Completely wrong!

Brazil lost from not respecting the opponent. and fielding unfit players...

Put in an extra MF to start in place of Neymar and they walk that game...
A great player and leader might have led them into the better game plan...laying back a bit as opposed to pressing and chasing for protracted periods of time. That actually tired Brazil. And let do moments...like Brazil being caught with too many men up front on that Croatian counter...where Casemiro failed to foul Luka for fear of accumulated yellows, jogging rather than running back.

These guys know each other: Casemiro, Modric, Kovacic, Perisic, Richarlison, Rodrygo, Vini, among others...all teammates at clubs...come on, Brazil and Croatia of all teams respected each other.

I do agree not all Brazil players were 100%. Neither were ours. Sosa in particular, but Madric + Kovacic also had brief flu against Japan.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by kali »

Brazil lost in a similar way against Belgium in 2018. Overconfidence and the fact that they did not respect their opponent enough. They peppered Croatia and eventually scored but never thought Croatia would hit back. Croatia 2018 World Cup finalists. The Argentines made the same mistake in 2018 and got beaten but in 2022 respected them, sat back and took advantage of the gaping hole behind their midfield.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by Undertaker »

I think it was the "Dancing" Once I saw them dancing like they are on Dancing with the Stars? I knew they weren't serious about winning the World cup.

Also, the team wasn't that deep. For Christ sake, Cameroon beat their bench team!
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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^Absolutely. Clowning around and deservedly eliminated. Was delighted to see them gone. Dance when the dealings done.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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...arrogance cost them.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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Coach wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:11 pm ^Absolutely. Clowning around and deservedly eliminated. Was delighted to see them gone. Dance when the dealings done.


I love Brazil. But the dancing went too far, especially against South Korea, which was just rubbing it in.

For me, I'd have no issue if it were at the end of the game. Maybe 1 spontaneous dance by a player on a goal as well.

But to do it repeatedly as a team, getting the coach in it was excessive.

The South Korean fans were all over Brazil on social media over this after they lost to Croatia.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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cic old boy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:48 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:19 pm ^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
Brazil eliminated by Croatia led by a midfield maestro Modric of 37. Brazil don't even have a midfielder as good as Kovacic. Even though he didn't have a good WC, Kevin De Bruyne has helped City dominate in England by being a midfield maestro. Even "game management" is exactly what I said about a midfielder controlling the tempo.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by ohsee »

kalani JR wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:52 pm
cic old boy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:48 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:19 pm ^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
Brazil eliminated by Croatia led by a midfield maestro Modric of 37. Brazil don't even have a midfielder as good as Kovacic. Even though he didn't have a good WC, Kevin De Bruyne has helped City dominate in England by being a midfield maestro. Even "game management" is exactly what I said about a midfielder controlling the tempo.
Casemiro, Guimaeres, Fabinho?
Chief, Casemiro and Fabinho are normally DMs. Fabinho is a defender (CB) moved to the midfield.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by airwolex »

The answer is that they were unlucky. They had more shots on goal than in the Korea game and Allison had more saves. Any sportsman will tell you, some days anything you touch flies in, other days it is like you are jazzed or something. They have a very good team going forward. No need to overthink things.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by kalani JR »

ohsee wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:11 am
kalani JR wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:52 pm
cic old boy wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:48 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:19 pm ^Dont think creativity in midfield is the issue. The game has moved on from the days of Magicians with no. 10 emblazoned on their jerseys. Fastest route to goal, Allardyconomics aside, remains down the flanks. Brazil were not eliminated for lack of creation rather absolute naivety with regard to game management.
Brazil eliminated by Croatia led by a midfield maestro Modric of 37. Brazil don't even have a midfielder as good as Kovacic. Even though he didn't have a good WC, Kevin De Bruyne has helped City dominate in England by being a midfield maestro. Even "game management" is exactly what I said about a midfielder controlling the tempo.
Casemiro, Guimaeres, Fabinho?
Chief, Casemiro and Fabinho are normally DMs. Fabinho is a defender (CB) moved to the midfield.
Even so isn't the classic Brazilian formula two Defensive midfielders in the knockout stage, Dunga + Mauro Silva or Gilberto Silva + Kleberson? I guess Gerson was different but Casemiro could perform many of his functions. I think their problem was mostly with fullbacks and at striker. Eder isn't a fullback and Sandro was unfit.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

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airwolex wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:55 am The answer is that they were unlucky. They had more shots on goal than in the Korea game and Allison had more saves. Any sportsman will tell you, some days anything you touch flies in, other days it is like you are jazzed or something. They have a very good team going forward. No need to overthink things.


Yes, this is it. Brazil is unlucky.

It's said they will be at Cesar's Palace at the poker tables in Las Vegas.

Learning all about luck. Making sure that their bad luck since 2002 is broken.

The Brazilian federation thanks you for your tip...because all this time they though it was about infrastructure, training, preparation, tactics, talent...and perhaps, just maybe, the opponent.

Who knew?

:taunt:
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by airwolex »

mate wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:48 pm
airwolex wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:55 am The answer is that they were unlucky. They had more shots on goal than in the Korea game and Allison had more saves. Any sportsman will tell you, some days anything you touch flies in, other days it is like you are jazzed or something. They have a very good team going forward. No need to overthink things.


Yes, this is it. Brazil is unlucky.

It's said they will be at Cesar's Palace at the poker tables in Las Vegas.

Learning all about luck. Making sure that their bad luck since 2002 is broken.

The Brazilian federation thanks you for your tip...because all this time they though it was about infrastructure, training, preparation, tactics, talent...and perhaps, just maybe, the opponent.

Who knew?

:taunt:
Ok boss, it was all part of a Croatian masterplan for their keeper to make the most saves in their history and win on penalties.
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Re: Brazil's early World Cup exit: What went wrong for Neymar & Co., and were Tite's tactics to blame?

Post by Kneedeep »

airwolex wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:50 pm
mate wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:48 pm
airwolex wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:55 am The answer is that they were unlucky. They had more shots on goal than in the Korea game and Allison had more saves. Any sportsman will tell you, some days anything you touch flies in, other days it is like you are jazzed or something. They have a very good team going forward. No need to overthink things.


Yes, this is it. Brazil is unlucky.

It's said they will be at Cesar's Palace at the poker tables in Las Vegas.

Learning all about luck. Making sure that their bad luck since 2002 is broken.

The Brazilian federation thanks you for your tip...because all this time they though it was about infrastructure, training, preparation, tactics, talent...and perhaps, just maybe, the opponent.

Who knew?

:taunt:
Ok boss, it was all part of a Croatian masterplan for their keeper to make the most saves in their history and win on penalties.
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