Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by theDunamis »

airwolex wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:12 pm
theDunamis wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:14 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 pm No he will not enter the GOAT debate. Time is infinite but in the finiteness of the jury, lasts longer than 4 years.

Hugo Lloris kept goal then and keeps goal now. Without his safe hands would anyone be blaring “Allez Les Bleus” up and down Le Parc du Princes high street? Hugo will never enter any discussion on the GOATs of goalkeepery, not even the sheep.

The way people throw GOAT around these days is astoundingly silly. GOAT is about a body of work and not just a couple of cups. About the role one played in getting those cups that becomes part of that body of work.

All these folks declaring GOAT every time they see something that catches their fancy are quite exhausting.
Do you really think this is just something? Last time anybody did it this way was Maradonna in 86 and 90.

Btw young Maradona and Messi both sucked in their first WCs, Mbappe did not. You cannot deny that he was arguably their best player.

I actually thought it was a fluke myself, but not anymore. Lightening doesn't strike twice this way, this kid is special special.

A lot will be revealed on Sunday. If he denies Messi again then that will be 2 in 2 for him and 0 in 2 for Messi. If Messi does wind up being 1 and 4 in finals for Argentina na to take side eye look am.

Stakes are high....can't wait.

Again, it is not about winning 2 World Cup trophies. If it was, Cafu would be in the conversation too. He is NOT.

It is about the role one plays in getting the team to that trophy in addition to a player's overall body of work. Mbappe was not by any stretch of the imagination the heartbeat of the 2018 French team. He was a valuable piece but by no means can one claim that he carried that team to the WC trophy.

Frankly, even in this WC, while he has been much weightier and more pivotal to the French team than he was in the last, a valid argument can be made that Griezmann has been just as weighty and pivotal if not more so.

I love Mbappe and I believe he will dominate the game for many years to come. However, I cannot and will not participate in the ludicrousness of those who act as if football started this century or join in the collective ignorance of today's YouTube generation or the selective amnesia those who should know better about soccer greats past and the stellar bodies of work they left on the field of play. No, not happening.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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ohsee wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:28 pm
mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:48 am
ohsee wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:36 am
mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:44 am
maceo4 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:30 am
mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:05 pm I agree long way to go. Definitely a great forward. But a leader getting his team to the top?

That wasn't him last WC, as it was a team effort...and I'll argue that Kante + Pogba played the pivotal leadership roles then.

But he has this and future WCs to prove himself.
I doubt Pele was a leader when he won at 17, but he was the star of the team just like Mbappe was the no. 10 and star of the team. And with both Kante and Pogba out he still lead his team back to the finals. If he wins there has to be some conversation to be had…

Let's see. I like Mbappe. But I'll be blunt: so far, no, he doesn't show for me the same special something I saw in Pele, Maradona, and Messi. Again, he's young and perhaps can be that dominant player that leads club and country to success.

It takes more than being on even 2 consecutive WC winning teams.

We both are seasoned fans. Let's keep using our eye test. I watch Mbappe in CL competition. So far, he wasn't as impacting as how Messi and CR were over time...again, Pele and Maradona being even a higher level.

Let's see.
To me, the GOAT must have total or near total skills. Pele had every skill there is to have in football: you name it, he had it. Maradona and Messi have most, say 90%. Mbappe has maybe 80.

It is possible to shut Mbappe out of a game despite his speed and skills. We've seen it done. It may happen again on Sunday. Messi can be shut out too--it has happened in more than one World Cup. Because of his total skill set, it was impossible to shut Pele out of the two WC final games in which he appeared--he scored and set people up in both.


I wax between Pele and Maradona. Those 2 remain for me the GOATs in this eternal debate. I'll repeat: Pele had a better supporting cast.

I usually choose Pele on charisma.
Of course, the old arguments that I have answered in great detail in a multitude of places. Did he always have a better "supporting cast"? In his teenage years at Santos? With two completely different Brazilian world cup teams? With Santos in his prime when he was destroying teams left and right around the world? His supposed supporting cast was no better than the supporting cast Maradona had in 1982 and 1986--it is a myth that Maradona won a world cup all by his lonesome. His supporting cast was no better than the supporting cast Messi has had at Barcelona in his winning years--in fact, it was much worse. So please don't give me the hoary chestnut of "supporting cast."

I'm in my mid 50s and remember well the later Pele years. Sure, I get you go back even farther...farther back in ancient history!

:taunt:

Just messing with you. :) Pele had great Brazilian teams for the most part. Brazil was football during that period. 1970 being the icing on the cake.

Maradona had a decent but hardly great Argentina in 1986. Same in 1990. Same for Messi until now.

Like I said, it's an eternal debate.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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theDunamis wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:45 pm
airwolex wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:12 pm
theDunamis wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:14 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 pm No he will not enter the GOAT debate. Time is infinite but in the finiteness of the jury, lasts longer than 4 years.

Hugo Lloris kept goal then and keeps goal now. Without his safe hands would anyone be blaring “Allez Les Bleus” up and down Le Parc du Princes high street? Hugo will never enter any discussion on the GOATs of goalkeepery, not even the sheep.

The way people throw GOAT around these days is astoundingly silly. GOAT is about a body of work and not just a couple of cups. About the role one played in getting those cups that becomes part of that body of work.

All these folks declaring GOAT every time they see something that catches their fancy are quite exhausting.
Do you really think this is just something? Last time anybody did it this way was Maradonna in 86 and 90.

Btw young Maradona and Messi both sucked in their first WCs, Mbappe did not. You cannot deny that he was arguably their best player.

I actually thought it was a fluke myself, but not anymore. Lightening doesn't strike twice this way, this kid is special special.

A lot will be revealed on Sunday. If he denies Messi again then that will be 2 in 2 for him and 0 in 2 for Messi. If Messi does wind up being 1 and 4 in finals for Argentina na to take side eye look am.

Stakes are high....can't wait.

Again, it is not about winning 2 World Cup trophies. If it was, Cafu would be in the conversation too. He is NOT.

It is about the role one plays in getting the team to that trophy in addition to a player's overall body of work. Mbappe was not by any stretch of the imagination the heartbeat of the 2018 French team. He was a valuable piece but by no means can one claim that he carried that team to the WC trophy.

Frankly, even in this WC, while he has been much weightier and more pivotal to the French team than he was in the last, a valid argument can be made that Griezmann has been just as weighty and pivotal if not more so.

I love Mbappe and I believe he will dominate the game for many years to come. However, I cannot and will not participate in the ludicrousness of those who act as if football started this century or join in the collective ignorance of today's YouTube generation or the selective amnesia those who should know better about soccer greats past and the stellar bodies of work they left on the field of play. No, not happening.


Great post. Especially about casual fans from social media...most from what I sense don't actually watch the games but form fanboy clubs, using stats and games.

A lot of them play football fantasy and video games. But don't watch any team or player too deeply. More highlights.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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theDunamis wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:45 pm
airwolex wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:12 pm
theDunamis wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:14 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 pm No he will not enter the GOAT debate. Time is infinite but in the finiteness of the jury, lasts longer than 4 years.

Hugo Lloris kept goal then and keeps goal now. Without his safe hands would anyone be blaring “Allez Les Bleus” up and down Le Parc du Princes high street? Hugo will never enter any discussion on the GOATs of goalkeepery, not even the sheep.

The way people throw GOAT around these days is astoundingly silly. GOAT is about a body of work and not just a couple of cups. About the role one played in getting those cups that becomes part of that body of work.

All these folks declaring GOAT every time they see something that catches their fancy are quite exhausting.
Do you really think this is just something? Last time anybody did it this way was Maradonna in 86 and 90.

Btw young Maradona and Messi both sucked in their first WCs, Mbappe did not. You cannot deny that he was arguably their best player.

I actually thought it was a fluke myself, but not anymore. Lightening doesn't strike twice this way, this kid is special special.

A lot will be revealed on Sunday. If he denies Messi again then that will be 2 in 2 for him and 0 in 2 for Messi. If Messi does wind up being 1 and 4 in finals for Argentina na to take side eye look am.

Stakes are high....can't wait.

Again, it is not about winning 2 World Cup trophies. If it was, Cafu would be in the conversation too. He is NOT.

It is about the role one plays in getting the team to that trophy in addition to a player's overall body of work. Mbappe was not by any stretch of the imagination the heartbeat of the 2018 French team. He was a valuable piece but by no means can one claim that he carried that team to the WC trophy.

Frankly, even in this WC, while he has been much weightier and more pivotal to the French team than he was in the last, a valid argument can be made that Griezmann has been just as weighty and pivotal if not more so.

I love Mbappe and I believe he will dominate the game for many years to come. However, I cannot and will not participate in the ludicrousness of those who act as if football started this century or join in the collective ignorance of today's YouTube generation or the selective amnesia those who should know better about soccer greats past and the stellar bodies of work they left on the field of play. No, not happening.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:20 pm Pele had great Brazilian teams for the most part. Brazil was football during that period. 1970 being the icing on the cake.

Maradona had a decent but hardly great Argentina in 1986. Same in 1990. Same for Messi until now.

Like I said, it's an eternal debate.
mate these are intanet tropes, and they are meaningless when we are talking about a team sport. Be more specific. You cannot seriously be arguing that the only reason why Pele is considered for GOAT is because he played with great teams.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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Until players do for clubs like Santos and Napoli what Pele and Maradona did and then produce at the World Cup stage - let us please park the GOAT discussion. Thanks
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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airwolex wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:30 pm If he wins the WC?

I realize I am jumping the gun because Morocco could beat France, but are we sleeping on something really special here?

If he wins back-to-back WCs, he has done something Pele could not do. Brazil won in 1962, but Pele was injured and a non-factor. It was more Garrincha's WC.

He would have to do it by denying Messi, who a lot of people are saying is the goat, in consecutive WCs. Beat him in 2018, if he does again with another swashbuckling performance, things could get really spooky.

Even more interesting is the fact that he will be doing it with a depleted French team with the likes of Rabiot, Kounde, Dembele, Greismann, Giroud, etc. So all this talk that he was on a stacked French team in 2018, and Messi never had a great Argentine team is out of the window asap.

A lot of talk has been about Messi, but this is an equally intriguing talking point, that hasn't had enough coverage.
Your recollection of events in 1962 is quite clear, Airwolex ! I thought Pele played in 1962! Until I watched the crooked legged Garrincha doing the impossible! I wonder whether Eusebio was playing for Portugal then.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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He's on an all-time trajectory and I think his best is yet to come but by 24 Messi was already getting GOAT shouts here, that season he scored 73 goals in 60 games.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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ohsee wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:53 pm
mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:20 pm Pele had great Brazilian teams for the most part. Brazil was football during that period. 1970 being the icing on the cake.

Maradona had a decent but hardly great Argentina in 1986. Same in 1990. Same for Messi until now.

Like I said, it's an eternal debate.
mate these are intanet tropes, and they are meaningless when we are talking about a team sport. Be more specific. You cannot seriously be arguing that the only reason why Pele is considered for GOAT is because he played with great teams.

I told you my man I grew up with those name. My Dad used to glow about Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivelinho, Carlos Alberto.

You know what I am talking about. Ginga became known through LOTS of great Brazilian players, not just one.

:)
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:19 am
ohsee wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:53 pm
mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:20 pm Pele had great Brazilian teams for the most part. Brazil was football during that period. 1970 being the icing on the cake.

Maradona had a decent but hardly great Argentina in 1986. Same in 1990. Same for Messi until now.

Like I said, it's an eternal debate.
mate these are intanet tropes, and they are meaningless when we are talking about a team sport. Be more specific. You cannot seriously be arguing that the only reason why Pele is considered for GOAT is because he played with great teams.

I told you my man I grew up with those name. My Dad used to glow about Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivelinho, Carlos Alberto.

You know what I am talking about. Ginga became known through LOTS of great Brazilian players, not just one.

:)
:biggrin: So this is your dad's opinion you are relying on? OK, explain why Brazil did not win a world cup until a precocious 17 year old appeared on the scene, and stopped winning for two decades after he left. You also forget that Pele played for two generations of Brazilian players, winning world cups with the two different generations. Your argument is that they were always great players? :biggrin: And his serial winning with Santos is also because he played with great players too? Name the ones on Santos. :biggrin: No Wikipedia now. :biggrin: :biggrin:
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by mate »

ohsee wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:56 am
mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:19 am
ohsee wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:53 pm
mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:20 pm Pele had great Brazilian teams for the most part. Brazil was football during that period. 1970 being the icing on the cake.

Maradona had a decent but hardly great Argentina in 1986. Same in 1990. Same for Messi until now.

Like I said, it's an eternal debate.
mate these are intanet tropes, and they are meaningless when we are talking about a team sport. Be more specific. You cannot seriously be arguing that the only reason why Pele is considered for GOAT is because he played with great teams.

I told you my man I grew up with those name. My Dad used to glow about Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivelinho, Carlos Alberto.

You know what I am talking about. Ginga became known through LOTS of great Brazilian players, not just one.

:)
:biggrin: So this is your dad's opinion you are relying on? OK, explain why Brazil did not win a world cup until a precocious 17 year old appeared on the scene, and stopped winning for two decades after he left. You also forget that Pele played for two generations of Brazilian players, winning world cups with the two different generations. Your argument is that they were always great players? :biggrin: And his serial winning with Santos is also because he played with great players too? Name the ones on Santos. :biggrin: No Wikipedia now. :biggrin: :biggrin:


I'm not as old as you and didn't see Santos...I suspect you didn't either when TVs were rare!

:taunt:

We can watch videos BTW. Pele's NT was that much better than opponents. Be it 1958, 1962, or 1970.

Different era, different game really. You know this.

Man, you really are trying to say Brazilian teams were not great?

:rotf:
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:54 am I'm not as old as you and didn't see Santos...I suspect you didn't either when TVs were rare!

:taunt:

We can watch videos BTW. Pele's NT was that much better than opponents. Be it 1958, 1962, or 1970.

Different era, different game really. You know this.

Man, you really are trying to say Brazilian teams were not great?

:rotf:

So, your explanation is that it is purely coincidental that the teams Pele played in were great? That Pele just so happened to find his way into great teams for club and country across the multiple generations of players that he played with in different teams?

You are typically reasonable in your arguments. I guess you have decided to call in your overdue pass for one or two unreasonable and illogical arguments. :D
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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Field Marshall Ogolo wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:11 am
airwolex wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:30 pm If he wins the WC?

I realize I am jumping the gun because Morocco could beat France, but are we sleeping on something really special here?

If he wins back-to-back WCs, he has done something Pele could not do. Brazil won in 1962, but Pele was injured and a non-factor. It was more Garrincha's WC.

He would have to do it by denying Messi, who a lot of people are saying is the goat, in consecutive WCs. Beat him in 2018, if he does again with another swashbuckling performance, things could get really spooky.

Even more interesting is the fact that he will be doing it with a depleted French team with the likes of Rabiot, Kounde, Dembele, Greismann, Giroud, etc. So all this talk that he was on a stacked French team in 2018, and Messi never had a great Argentine team is out of the window asap.

A lot of talk has been about Messi, but this is an equally intriguing talking point, that hasn't had enough coverage.
Your recollection of events in 1962 is quite clear, Airwolex ! I thought Pele played in 1962! Until I watched the crooked legged Garrincha doing the impossible! I wonder whether Eusebio was playing for Portugal then.
If he did we wouldn't even be mentioning Messi in the same breath.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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theDunamis wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:57 am
mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:54 am I'm not as old as you and didn't see Santos...I suspect you didn't either when TVs were rare!

:taunt:

We can watch videos BTW. Pele's NT was that much better than opponents. Be it 1958, 1962, or 1970.

Different era, different game really. You know this.

Man, you really are trying to say Brazilian teams were not great?

:rotf:

So, your explanation is that it is purely coincidental that the teams Pele played in were great? That Pele just so happened to find his way into great teams for club and country across the multiple generations of players that he played with in different teams?

You are typically reasonable in your arguments. I guess you have decided to call in your overdue pass for one or two unreasonable and illogical arguments. :D


Don't get me wrong, as I put Pele on top over Maradona on charisma. All I am saying is he played on some great Brazilian teams with some great Brazilian players.

Is that really illogical to say?

:)
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:57 pmDon't get me wrong, as I put Pele on top over Maradona on charisma. All I am saying is he played on some great Brazilian teams with some great Brazilian players.

Is that really illogical to say?

:)

The easier and more logical conclusion would be that Pele makes the Brazilian teams he played in and the club teams he played in great. He - Pele - was the common denominator. But you are trying to make "great teams" the common denominator. And that my friend, is what I called out as illogical and unreasonable.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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theDunamis wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:11 pm
mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:57 pmDon't get me wrong, as I put Pele on top over Maradona on charisma. All I am saying is he played on some great Brazilian teams with some great Brazilian players.

Is that really illogical to say?

:)

The easier and more logical conclusion would be that Pele makes the Brazilian teams he played in and the club teams he played in great. He - Pele - was the common denominator. But you are trying to make "great teams" the common denominator. And that my friend, is what I called out as illogical and unreasonable.


Dude. Garrincha. Jairzinho. Tostao. Gerson. Rivelinho. Carlos Alberto. These are not just players made by even a GOAT.

1970 is regarded as the best football NT ever relative to their opposition.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:15 pm
theDunamis wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:11 pm
mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:57 pmDon't get me wrong, as I put Pele on top over Maradona on charisma. All I am saying is he played on some great Brazilian teams with some great Brazilian players.

Is that really illogical to say?

:)

The easier and more logical conclusion would be that Pele makes the Brazilian teams he played in and the club teams he played in great. He - Pele - was the common denominator. But you are trying to make "great teams" the common denominator. And that my friend, is what I called out as illogical and unreasonable.


Dude. Garrincha. Jairzinho. Tostao. Gerson. Rivelinho. Carlos Alberto. These are not just players made by even a GOAT.

1970 is regarded as the best football NT ever relative to their opposition.

Good job. One team. Now do the other teams.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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theDunamis wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:57 am
mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:54 am I'm not as old as you and didn't see Santos...I suspect you didn't either when TVs were rare!

:taunt:

We can watch videos BTW. Pele's NT was that much better than opponents. Be it 1958, 1962, or 1970.

Different era, different game really. You know this.

Man, you really are trying to say Brazilian teams were not great?

:rotf:

So, your explanation is that it is purely coincidental that the teams Pele played in were great? That Pele just so happened to find his way into great teams for club and country across the multiple generations of players that he played with in different teams?

You are typically reasonable in your arguments. I guess you have decided to call in your overdue pass for one or two unreasonable and illogical arguments. :D
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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theDunamis wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:30 pm
mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:15 pm
theDunamis wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:11 pm
mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:57 pmDon't get me wrong, as I put Pele on top over Maradona on charisma. All I am saying is he played on some great Brazilian teams with some great Brazilian players.

Is that really illogical to say?

:)

The easier and more logical conclusion would be that Pele makes the Brazilian teams he played in and the club teams he played in great. He - Pele - was the common denominator. But you are trying to make "great teams" the common denominator. And that my friend, is what I called out as illogical and unreasonable.


Dude. Garrincha. Jairzinho. Tostao. Gerson. Rivelinho. Carlos Alberto. These are not just players made by even a GOAT.

1970 is regarded as the best football NT ever relative to their opposition.

Good job. One team. Now do the other teams.


You don craze!

:)

Argentina 1986? Burruchaga? Valdano?

You can't possibly compare these to the Brazilian players I listed. Take Maradona off and they don't sniff a final.

Brazil has always been a top NT. They won the WC final in 1962 with Pele watching!!!



Don't get me wrong about Pele...as I keep saying...he is for me #1 with Diego...but let's not BS each other on how strong Brazil was.

My God, Brazil is jogo bonito and ginga. We're really arguing this?
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by theDunamis »

mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:32 pmYou don craze!

:)

Argentina 1986? Burruchaga? Valdano?

You can't possibly compare these to the Brazilian players I listed. Take Maradona off and they don't sniff a final.

Brazil has always been a top NT. They won the WC final in 1962 with Pele watching!!!



Don't get me wrong about Pele...as I keep saying...he is for me #1 with Diego...but let's not BS each other on how strong Brazil was.

My God, Brazil is jogo bonito and ginga. We're really arguing this?

Mate! Mate!! Mate!!!

You keep going on about one Brazilian team. You said Pele played in "great teams". All I am asking of you as the claimant is to provide evidence for your claim. Name OTHER "great teams" that Pele played in. Leave the great Brazilian team aside for a minute and detail the other "great teams" you claim Pele played in and what made them great. :D

What you don't know is that many years back I also had a position similar to yours now. You see I grew up watching Maradona do his magic. I was a witness during the pinnacle years of the Argentine magician's wizardry on the pitch. I saw, heard about, saw again and heard more about his brilliance again and again. And he made this easy because he kept making magic. And I and others like you were grateful consumers. But I and others like you had an unconscious bias. And my unconscious bias remained until the day I saw Ohsee's post on the GOAT topic here on the forum and I started digging to find out more...

Pele was a once in a lifetime football prodigy. So was Maradona. However, when you actually take time to look into the body of work of both and their trajectory to greatness, it will take a conscious bias then to not say that Pele wins the GOAT title. Period!
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by ohsee »

mate wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:32 pm

You don craze!

:)

Argentina 1986? Burruchaga? Valdano?

You can't possibly compare these to the Brazilian players I listed. Take Maradona off and they don't sniff a final.

Brazil has always been a top NT. They won the WC final in 1962 with Pele watching!!!



Don't get me wrong about Pele...as I keep saying...he is for me #1 with Diego...but let's not BS each other on how strong Brazil was.

My God, Brazil is jogo bonito and ginga. We're really arguing this?
:biggrin:
Argentina has also been a contender since 1978. They have teams expected to go all the way in nearly all world cups since they won, so I don't get your point. They are more a good team than a team with outstanding forwards like Brazil 1970. By the way, I reject the idea that fullback Carlos Alberto was one of the outstanding players on that Brazil team--he did only one outstanding thing: the goal in the final which he himself has admitted was an outlier, and the terrific shot was completely due to the perfect weight Pele put on the pass.

But the Argies ALWAYS have outstanding players who make it possible for their star to operate. In 2010, and 2014, Messi was surrounded by great forwards and midfielders in Di Maria, who is still there, Aguerro, Tevez, Veron and Higuain, as well as top notch defenders like Heinze, Zabaleta, Walter Samuel and Mascherano. Yet he failed to do the necessary, failing to record even one assist in the 2014 final :lol: :rotf: :lol: .

You have not answered the question of the stars on the team that supported Pele in 1958, apart from Garrincha, who was not there in 1970, having been dropped from the team after 1966 due to his aimless dribbling :lol:. How come these marvellous Brazilian stars who could win without Pele, crashed out of the tournament in 1966 when he was injured in the game against Portugal? In 1966, Gerson, Tostao, Jairzinho, and Garrincha were all there. :biggrin: :biggrin: Why couldn't they win without Pele? :biggrin: :D :biggrin: :D :taunt:

More questions for you: Why did the coach take an injured 17 year old boy to a WC in 1958, in the hopes he would recover in time to play. This was a time when there were zero substitutions. That boy recovered from his injury at the end of the first round, and scored 6 goals in the knockout stage, rewarding his coach for his supreme confidence in a mere boy. Why would a coach have such confidence in a boy if all he did was complete the list of stars on the team? Why take him at all? Why not let the jogo bonito stars do the job without him? :biggrin: :biggrin:

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