Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by airwolex »

If he wins the WC?

I realize I am jumping the gun because Morocco could beat France, but are we sleeping on something really special here?

If he wins back-to-back WCs, he has done something Pele could not do. Brazil won in 1962, but Pele was injured and a non-factor. It was more Garrincha's WC.

He would have to do it by denying Messi, who a lot of people are saying is the goat, in consecutive WCs. Beat him in 2018, if he does again with another swashbuckling performance, things could get really spooky.

Even more interesting is the fact that he will be doing it with a depleted French team with the likes of Rabiot, Kounde, Dembele, Greismann, Giroud, etc. So all this talk that he was on a stacked French team in 2018, and Messi never had a great Argentine team is out of the window asap.

A lot of talk has been about Messi, but this is an equally intriguing talking point, that hasn't had enough coverage.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by Scipio Africanus »

Good points. If Mbappe wins the WC with France he is on the way to being the Pele of our generation. A very big if. Morocco and Argentina are waiting.


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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by Coach »

No he will not enter the GOAT debate. Time is infinite but in the finiteness of the jury, lasts longer than 4 years.

Hugo Lloris kept goal then and keeps goal now. Without his safe hands would anyone be blaring “Allez Les Bleus” up and down Le Parc du Princes high street? Hugo will never enter any discussion on the GOATs of goalkeepery, not even the sheep.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by theDunamis »

Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 pm No he will not enter the GOAT debate. Time is infinite but in the finiteness of the jury, lasts longer than 4 years.

Hugo Lloris kept goal then and keeps goal now. Without his safe hands would anyone be blaring “Allez Les Bleus” up and down Le Parc du Princes high street? Hugo will never enter any discussion on the GOATs of goalkeepery, not even the sheep.

The way people throw GOAT around these days is astoundingly silly. GOAT is about a body of work and not just a couple of cups. About the role one played in getting those cups that becomes part of that body of work.

All these folks declaring GOAT every time they see something that catches their fancy are quite exhausting.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by TonyTheTigerKiller »

You are drinking from the same fountain as the same people who said the US had a pretty good chance to win it all; then they focused their attention on England… and now? Of course they are hyping Mbappe. How else are they going to make themselves relevant❓🤷🏾‍♀️❗️


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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by maceo4 »

TonyTheTigerKiller wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:10 pm You are drinking from the same fountain as the same people who said the US had a pretty good chance to win it all; then they focused their attention on England… and now? Of course they are hyping Mbappe. How else are they going to make themselves relevant❓🤷🏾‍♀️❗️


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Unlike US and England Mbappe has already done/proven it before…
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by TonyTheTigerKiller »

maceo4 wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:34 pm
TonyTheTigerKiller wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:10 pm You are drinking from the same fountain as the same people who said the US had a pretty good chance to win it all; then they focused their attention on England… and now? Of course they are hyping Mbappe. How else are they going to make themselves relevant❓🤷🏾‍♀️❗️


Cheers.
Unlike US and England Mbappe has already done/proven it before…
He was part of a star studded team tgat rolled o we everyone in 2018. There potency is obviously somewhat diminished. If he can get them over the top this time around then perhaps, he belongs in the conversation❗️


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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by maceo4 »

TonyTheTigerKiller wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:51 pm
maceo4 wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:34 pm
TonyTheTigerKiller wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:10 pm You are drinking from the same fountain as the same people who said the US had a pretty good chance to win it all; then they focused their attention on England… and now? Of course they are hyping Mbappe. How else are they going to make themselves relevant❓🤷🏾‍♀️❗️


Cheers.
Unlike US and England Mbappe has already done/proven it before…
He was part of a star studded team tgat rolled o we everyone in 2018. There potency is obviously somewhat diminished. If he can get them over the top this time around then perhaps, he belongs in the conversation❗️


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He wasn’t part, he was the star of that team…no reason to try and rewrite history…
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by airwolex »

Long way to go, but I can't remember one player leading a team to back to back WCs. It would be a very big deal, plus note I said "conversation".
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by mate »

I agree long way to go. Definitely a great forward. But a leader getting his team to the top?

That wasn't him last WC, as it was a team effort...and I'll argue that Kante + Pogba played the pivotal leadership roles then.

But he has this and future WCs to prove himself.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by Robotnik »

All of a sudden Mate wants France to beat Argentina..hmm why is that..
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by airwolex »

theDunamis wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:14 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 pm No he will not enter the GOAT debate. Time is infinite but in the finiteness of the jury, lasts longer than 4 years.

Hugo Lloris kept goal then and keeps goal now. Without his safe hands would anyone be blaring “Allez Les Bleus” up and down Le Parc du Princes high street? Hugo will never enter any discussion on the GOATs of goalkeepery, not even the sheep.

The way people throw GOAT around these days is astoundingly silly. GOAT is about a body of work and not just a couple of cups. About the role one played in getting those cups that becomes part of that body of work.

All these folks declaring GOAT every time they see something that catches their fancy are quite exhausting.
Do you really think this is just something? Last time anybody did it this way was Maradonna in 86 and 90.

Btw young Maradona and Messi both sucked in their first WCs, Mbappe did not. You cannot deny that he was arguably their best player.

I actually thought it was a fluke myself, but not anymore. Lightening doesn't strike twice this way, this kid is special special.

A lot will be revealed on Sunday. If he denies Messi again then that will be 2 in 2 for him and 0 in 2 for Messi. If Messi does wind up being 1 and 4 in finals for Argentina na to take side eye look am.

Stakes are high....can't wait.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by mate »

Robotnik wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:13 pm All of a sudden Mate wants France to beat Argentina..hmm why is that..
FYI: I was born in France. Paris. Lived there 3 years.

:thumb:

Oui!

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Post by 100%Naija »

Airheadwolex - shay goat meat dey hungry you? How can you say that about Mbappe at this early stage of his career? Na wa for you o
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Post by airwolex »

Let me see what happens on Sunday first
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by maceo4 »

mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:05 pm I agree long way to go. Definitely a great forward. But a leader getting his team to the top?

That wasn't him last WC, as it was a team effort...and I'll argue that Kante + Pogba played the pivotal leadership roles then.

But he has this and future WCs to prove himself.
I doubt Pele was a leader when he won at 17, but he was the star of the team just like Mbappe was the no. 10 and star of the team. And with both Kante and Pogba out he still lead his team back to the finals. If he wins there has to be some conversation to be had…
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by mate »

maceo4 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:30 am
mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:05 pm I agree long way to go. Definitely a great forward. But a leader getting his team to the top?

That wasn't him last WC, as it was a team effort...and I'll argue that Kante + Pogba played the pivotal leadership roles then.

But he has this and future WCs to prove himself.
I doubt Pele was a leader when he won at 17, but he was the star of the team just like Mbappe was the no. 10 and star of the team. And with both Kante and Pogba out he still lead his team back to the finals. If he wins there has to be some conversation to be had…

Let's see. I like Mbappe. But I'll be blunt: so far, no, he doesn't show for me the same special something I saw in Pele, Maradona, and Messi. Again, he's young and perhaps can be that dominant player that leads club and country to success.

It takes more than being on even 2 consecutive WC winning teams.

We both are seasoned fans. Let's keep using our eye test. I watch Mbappe in CL competition. So far, he wasn't as impacting as how Messi and CR were over time...again, Pele and Maradona being even a higher level.

Let's see.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by ohsee »

mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:22 pm
Robotnik wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:13 pm All of a sudden Mate wants France to beat Argentina..hmm why is that..
FYI: I was born in France. Paris. Lived there 3 years.

:thumb:

Oui!

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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by ohsee »

airwolex wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:12 pm
theDunamis wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:14 pm
Coach wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 pm No he will not enter the GOAT debate. Time is infinite but in the finiteness of the jury, lasts longer than 4 years.

Hugo Lloris kept goal then and keeps goal now. Without his safe hands would anyone be blaring “Allez Les Bleus” up and down Le Parc du Princes high street? Hugo will never enter any discussion on the GOATs of goalkeepery, not even the sheep.

The way people throw GOAT around these days is astoundingly silly. GOAT is about a body of work and not just a couple of cups. About the role one played in getting those cups that becomes part of that body of work.

All these folks declaring GOAT every time they see something that catches their fancy are quite exhausting.
Do you really think this is just something? Last time anybody did it this way was Maradonna in 86 and 90.

Btw young Maradona and Messi both sucked in their first WCs, Mbappe did not. You cannot deny that he was arguably their best player.

I actually thought it was a fluke myself, but not anymore. Lightening doesn't strike twice this way, this kid is special special.

A lot will be revealed on Sunday. If he denies Messi again then that will be 2 in 2 for him and 0 in 2 for Messi. If Messi does wind up being 1 and 4 in finals for Argentina na to take side eye look am.

Stakes are high....can't wait.
Neither Mbappe nor Messi are in the GOAT conversation, no matter what Messi fanboys think. Even if Messi wins the WC this time around. Messi is the club GOAT...maybe :biggrin: . For his national team, he has mostly done nada, and is only doing it now at an old age, while the real contenders did it when young.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by ohsee »

mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:44 am
maceo4 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:30 am
mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:05 pm I agree long way to go. Definitely a great forward. But a leader getting his team to the top?

That wasn't him last WC, as it was a team effort...and I'll argue that Kante + Pogba played the pivotal leadership roles then.

But he has this and future WCs to prove himself.
I doubt Pele was a leader when he won at 17, but he was the star of the team just like Mbappe was the no. 10 and star of the team. And with both Kante and Pogba out he still lead his team back to the finals. If he wins there has to be some conversation to be had…

Let's see. I like Mbappe. But I'll be blunt: so far, no, he doesn't show for me the same special something I saw in Pele, Maradona, and Messi. Again, he's young and perhaps can be that dominant player that leads club and country to success.

It takes more than being on even 2 consecutive WC winning teams.

We both are seasoned fans. Let's keep using our eye test. I watch Mbappe in CL competition. So far, he wasn't as impacting as how Messi and CR were over time...again, Pele and Maradona being even a higher level.

Let's see.
To me, the GOAT must have total or near total skills. Pele had every skill there is to have in football: you name it, he had it. Maradona and Messi have most, say 90%. Mbappe has maybe 80.

It is possible to shut Mbappe out of a game despite his speed and skills. We've seen it done. It may happen again on Sunday. Messi can be shut out too--it has happened in more than one World Cup. Because of his total skill set, it was impossible to shut Pele out of the two WC final games in which he appeared--he scored and set people up in both.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

Post by mate »

ohsee wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:36 am
mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:44 am
maceo4 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:30 am
mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:05 pm I agree long way to go. Definitely a great forward. But a leader getting his team to the top?

That wasn't him last WC, as it was a team effort...and I'll argue that Kante + Pogba played the pivotal leadership roles then.

But he has this and future WCs to prove himself.
I doubt Pele was a leader when he won at 17, but he was the star of the team just like Mbappe was the no. 10 and star of the team. And with both Kante and Pogba out he still lead his team back to the finals. If he wins there has to be some conversation to be had…

Let's see. I like Mbappe. But I'll be blunt: so far, no, he doesn't show for me the same special something I saw in Pele, Maradona, and Messi. Again, he's young and perhaps can be that dominant player that leads club and country to success.

It takes more than being on even 2 consecutive WC winning teams.

We both are seasoned fans. Let's keep using our eye test. I watch Mbappe in CL competition. So far, he wasn't as impacting as how Messi and CR were over time...again, Pele and Maradona being even a higher level.

Let's see.
To me, the GOAT must have total or near total skills. Pele had every skill there is to have in football: you name it, he had it. Maradona and Messi have most, say 90%. Mbappe has maybe 80.

It is possible to shut Mbappe out of a game despite his speed and skills. We've seen it done. It may happen again on Sunday. Messi can be shut out too--it has happened in more than one World Cup. Because of his total skill set, it was impossible to shut Pele out of the two WC final games in which he appeared--he scored and set people up in both.


I wax between Pele and Maradona. Those 2 remain for me the GOATs in this eternal debate. I'll repeat: Pele had a better supporting cast.

I usually choose Pele on charisma.
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Post by mastermind »

If he's able to end Messi's career without a world cup then he should win the WFY award. Benzima robbed him this year, I hope they give it to him this time around.
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Re: Mbappe Already In The Goat Conversation...

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mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:48 am
ohsee wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:36 am
mate wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:44 am
maceo4 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:30 am
mate wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:05 pm I agree long way to go. Definitely a great forward. But a leader getting his team to the top?

That wasn't him last WC, as it was a team effort...and I'll argue that Kante + Pogba played the pivotal leadership roles then.

But he has this and future WCs to prove himself.
I doubt Pele was a leader when he won at 17, but he was the star of the team just like Mbappe was the no. 10 and star of the team. And with both Kante and Pogba out he still lead his team back to the finals. If he wins there has to be some conversation to be had…

Let's see. I like Mbappe. But I'll be blunt: so far, no, he doesn't show for me the same special something I saw in Pele, Maradona, and Messi. Again, he's young and perhaps can be that dominant player that leads club and country to success.

It takes more than being on even 2 consecutive WC winning teams.

We both are seasoned fans. Let's keep using our eye test. I watch Mbappe in CL competition. So far, he wasn't as impacting as how Messi and CR were over time...again, Pele and Maradona being even a higher level.

Let's see.
To me, the GOAT must have total or near total skills. Pele had every skill there is to have in football: you name it, he had it. Maradona and Messi have most, say 90%. Mbappe has maybe 80.

It is possible to shut Mbappe out of a game despite his speed and skills. We've seen it done. It may happen again on Sunday. Messi can be shut out too--it has happened in more than one World Cup. Because of his total skill set, it was impossible to shut Pele out of the two WC final games in which he appeared--he scored and set people up in both.


I wax between Pele and Maradona. Those 2 remain for me the GOATs in this eternal debate. I'll repeat: Pele had a better supporting cast.

I usually choose Pele on charisma.
Of course, the old arguments that I have answered in great detail in a multitude of places. Did he always have a better "supporting cast"? In his teenage years at Santos? With two completely different Brazilian world cup teams? With Santos in his prime when he was destroying teams left and right around the world? His supposed supporting cast was no better than the supporting cast Maradona had in 1982 and 1986--it is a myth that Maradona won a world cup all by his lonesome. His supporting cast was no better than the supporting cast Messi has had at Barcelona in his winning years--in fact, it was much worse. So please don't give me the hoary chestnut of "supporting cast."

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