OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

[cic old boy]

Of course. He wins in an opinion vote (something regularly and uncritically dashed to him every year ) as opposed to actually winning the tournament . He was a total dud in the 2014 final, stamping aimlessly around the pitch like a lost little boy. By the way, the "Player of the Tournament" could not buy a goal in the knockout stages.

You may have missed the memo that said you can play very well without scoring and score without playing well. People who doubt the greatness of Messi usually "watch" results not games. By your "logic", Mario Gotze, who scored the winning goal in the final, is better than Messi. Messi version 2014 was better than Messi version 2022 and he was the best player in both tournaments.

[wiseone]

People who say modern players are better than the greats of the past such as Pele, Best, and Maradona etc do not realise just how hard it was to score back then.

Watch this clip from the 1958 World Cup final. Sweden played a through ball and as the Swedish striker was about to run clean through to goal, a Brazilian CD jumped up into the air and caught the ball with both hands to stop the ball from going through to the Swedish striker. He deliberately handballed to stop a clear goalscoring opportunity yet the ref the did not punish him with a caution or by sending him off. Not even a verbal warning!

This was because back then, deliberate handball to deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity was not a cautionable or sending off offence.

The Brazilian defender's only punishment for his offence was a "regular" free kick about 45 yards from goal.

[ohsee]

Of course. He wins in an opinion vote (something regularly and uncritically dashed to him every year ) as opposed to actually winning the tournament . He was a total dud in the 2014 final, stamping aimlessly around the pitch like a lost little boy. By the way, the "Player of the Tournament" could not buy a goal in the knockout stages.

You may have missed the memo that said you can play very well without scoring and score without playing well. People who doubt the greatness of Messi usually "watch" results not games. By your "logic", Mario Gotze, who scored the winning goal in the final, is better than Messi. Messi version 2014 was better than Messi version 2022 and he was the best player in both tournaments.

You missed the memo that Messi tends to fade in key games where he is not surrounded by the World Class players he had at Barcelona. You missed the memo that Messi was lousy in that 2014 final, and was also very lousy against that same German team that knocked Argentina out in 2010. Why can't the "Player of the tournament" score in the knockout stages? What sort of GOAT is unable to score in the knockout stages of 4 world cups, and only "plays very well"?

[cic old boy]

You missed the memo that Messi tends to fade in key games where he is not surrounded by the World Class players he had at Barcelona. You missed the memo that Messi was lousy in that 2014 final, and was also very lousy against that same German team that knocked Argentina out in 2010. Why can't the "Player of the tournament" score in the knockout stages? What sort of GOAT is unable to score in the knockout stages of 4 world cups, and only "plays very well"?

He wasn't surrounded by world class players in Qatar. Which Argie player would start for France or even Engerland? This is how football works: It's easier to shutdown a genius if he is not surrounded by good players. If he has good players around him, if you put extra men on him, he would feed the guys that are free. That's why Higuain should have finished Germany in the 2014 final. That's why when Lautaro Martinez started missing chances in the final in Qatar, folks said he was "channelling his inner Higuain" and could have cost them the game. That's why when Germany shutdown Maradona in the final in 86, it freed Valdano and Burruchaga. Go and check the quality of players that played alongside Pele for Brazil and compare them with the current world champions.

"Lousy" Leo followed by almost half a team in each match.

[ohsee]

You missed the memo that Messi tends to fade in key games where he is not surrounded by the World Class players he had at Barcelona. You missed the memo that Messi was lousy in that 2014 final, and was also very lousy against that same German team that knocked Argentina out in 2010. Why can't the "Player of the tournament" score in the knockout stages? What sort of GOAT is unable to score in the knockout stages of 4 world cups, and only "plays very well"?

He wasn't surrounded by world class players in Qatar. Which Argie player would start for France or even Engerland? This is how football works: It's easier to shutdown a genius if he is not surrounded by good players. If he has good players around him, if you put extra men on him, he would feed the guys that are free. That's why Higuain should have finished Germany in the 2014 final. That's why when Lautaro Martinez started missing chances in the final in Qatar, folks said he was "channelling his inner Higuain" and could have cost them the game. That's why when Germany shutdown Maradona in the final in 86, it freed Valdano and Burruchaga. Go and check the quality of players that played alongside Pele for Brazil and compare them with the current world champions.

"Lousy" Leo followed by almost half a team in each match.

You can find similar pictures of the entire team following Pele. Yet Pele was able to score. If the entire team is following you, pass off the ball. Even assist Messi no fit get. Too many excuses from Messi fan boys. Messi had world class players on the Argie teams like Aguerro, Higuain, Maria husband and let us not forget DM Mascherano. But fan boys just know how to make excuses about why it took their hero 5 World Cups to win one, and worse, won one against a sick and injured French team fielding their 3rd string team . Whom the fake GOAT and his boys could not even beat in regular and extra time.

Pele won one in his first world cup, scoring in the final. Even Mbappe won one in his first, scoring in the final. But Messi fan boys keep complaining about how he is surrounded. Well, pass the ball, or if you say you are the GOAT, score from a cross or corner kick with your leaping and heading ability like Pele. Yoroyoro fake GOAT Messi.

By the way, Maria husband will replace Dumbele any day.

[cic old boy]

Tapinho Penaldo don suffer.

[cic old boy]

You can find similar pictures of the entire team following Pele. Yet Pele was able to score. If the entire team is following you, pass off the ball. Even assist Messi no fit get. Too many excuses from Messi fan boys. Messi had world class players on the Argie teams like Aguerro, Higuain, Maria husband and let us not forget DM Mascherano. But fan boys just know how to make excuses about why it took their hero 5 World Cups to win one, and worse, won one against a sick and injured French team fielding their 3rd string team . Whom the fake GOAT and his boys could not even beat in regular and extra time.

Pele won one in his first world cup, scoring in the final. Even Mbappe won one in his first, scoring in the final. But Messi fan boys keep complaining about how he is surrounded. Well, pass the ball, or if you say you are the GOAT, score from a cross or corner kick with your leaping and heading ability like Pele. Yoroyoro fake GOAT Messi.

By the way, Maria husband will replace Dumbele any day.

Pele played with great players. If the entire team just followed Pele, Garrincha, Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivellino, etc would destroy them.

You have missed the memo that it is only an assist if a goal is scored. When Higuain chopped chances it's not an assist. Higuain "world class"?? I laugh in Spanish. Aguero was regularly injured and many wondered why Higuain started before him when Aguero was fit.

Di Maria was not fit in the final and was withdrawn after about an hour. When he was on the pitch, France were completely outclassed and losing 2-0. Di Maria also missed the final in 2014. What he offers is a runner with the ball to give the opposition something else to think about. When he is not there, shutting down Messi is a lot easier.

If age when the WC was won is a valid argument, Julian Alvarez just won it at 22, Enzo Fernandez at 21. What does it prove? They must be better than Messi by your dodgy "logic".

[mate]

You can find similar pictures of the entire team following Pele. Yet Pele was able to score. If the entire team is following you, pass off the ball. Even assist Messi no fit get. Too many excuses from Messi fan boys. Messi had world class players on the Argie teams like Aguerro, Higuain, Maria husband and let us not forget DM Mascherano. But fan boys just know how to make excuses about why it took their hero 5 World Cups to win one, and worse, won one against a sick and injured French team fielding their 3rd string team . Whom the fake GOAT and his boys could not even beat in regular and extra time.

Pele won one in his first world cup, scoring in the final. Even Mbappe won one in his first, scoring in the final. But Messi fan boys keep complaining about how he is surrounded. Well, pass the ball, or if you say you are the GOAT, score from a cross or corner kick with your leaping and heading ability like Pele. Yoroyoro fake GOAT Messi.

By the way, Maria husband will replace Dumbele any day.

Pele played with great players. If the entire team just followed Pele, Garrincha, Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivellino, etc would destroy them.

You have missed the memo that it is only an assist if a goal is scored. When Higuain chopped chances it's not an assist. Higuain "world class"?? I laugh in Spanish. Aguero was regularly injured and many wondered why Higuain started before him when Aguero was fit.

Di Maria was not fit in the final and was withdrawn after about an hour. When he was on the pitch, France were completely outclassed and losing 2-0. Di Maria also missed the final in 2014. What he offers is a runner with the ball to give the opposition something else to think about. When he is not there, shutting down Messi is a lot easier.

If age when the WC was won is a valid argument, Julian Alvarez just won it at 22, Enzo Fernandez at 21. What does it prove? They must be better than Messi by your dodgy "logic".

You guys are both my men...but I have to say Ohsee is deluded when he lessons the fact that Pele had IMMENSE players around him...whereas Maradona and Messi didn't.



I still tip Pele because he was the most complete and had peak athleticism. Fast, agile, strong, leaper, 2 good feet, peripheral vision, passing, tiki-taka IQ, and leadership.

I have come around to the idea of a GOAT for an era, where not every era will have one. For me there are only 3: Pele, Messi, and Maradona. The farther apart, the more difficult to compare.

But I have 1 stock perspective: how would Pele do today vs Messi yesterday?

I think Pele being peak athlete would reap modern sports science. And be nth degree juggernaut. In contrast, Beckenbauer once famously said of himself that he didn't have the minimum speed to compete in the modern game.

But I think Messi could not have competed well in the era of Pele. He'd be hacked to death. And would lack the sports science and nutrition it took to put added muscle.

Of course, this is all speculation.

[ohsee]

You guys are both my men...but I have to say Ohsee is deluded when he lessons the fact that Pele had IMMENSE players around him...whereas Maradona and Messi didn't.



I still tip Pele because he was the most complete and had peak athleticism. Fast, agile, strong, leaper, 2 good feet, peripheral vision, passing, tiki-taka IQ, and leadership.

I have come around to the idea of a GOAT for an era, where not every era will have one. For me there are only 3: Pele, Messi, and Maradona. The farther apart, the more difficult to compare.

But I have 1 stock perspective: how would Pele do today vs Messi yesterday?

I think Pele being peak athlete would reap modern sports science. And be nth degree juggernaut. In contrast, Beckenbauer once famously said of himself that he didn't have the minimum speed to compete in the modern game.

But I think Messi could not have competed well in the era of Pele. He'd be hacked to death. And would lack the sports science and nutrition it took to put added muscle.

Of course, this is all speculation.

Have we not already discussed the "immenseness" of the players Pele had around him? The same "immense" players were there in 1966, and as soon as Pele left due to injury, they were knocked out. Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson, Garrincha and Brito were on the team. The only other big name addition for 1970 was Rivelino. And Garrincha was dropped.

[mate]

You guys are both my men...but I have to say Ohsee is deluded when he lessons the fact that Pele had IMMENSE players around him...whereas Maradona and Messi didn't.



I still tip Pele because he was the most complete and had peak athleticism. Fast, agile, strong, leaper, 2 good feet, peripheral vision, passing, tiki-taka IQ, and leadership.

I have come around to the idea of a GOAT for an era, where not every era will have one. For me there are only 3: Pele, Messi, and Maradona. The farther apart, the more difficult to compare.

But I have 1 stock perspective: how would Pele do today vs Messi yesterday?

I think Pele being peak athlete would reap modern sports science. And be nth degree juggernaut. In contrast, Beckenbauer once famously said of himself that he didn't have the minimum speed to compete in the modern game.

But I think Messi could not have competed well in the era of Pele. He'd be hacked to death. And would lack the sports science and nutrition it took to put added muscle.

Of course, this is all speculation.

Have we not already discussed the "immenseness" of the players Pele had around him? The same "immense" players were there in 1966, and as soon as Pele left due to injury, they were knocked out. Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson, Garrincha and Brito were on the team. The only other big name addition for 1970 was Rivelino. And Garrincha was dropped.

They won 1962 basically without Pele.

And you're CRAZY for skipping over so many illustrious 1970 names. Who do you think you're fooling?



Pele is my GOAT. But call it like it is.

[BAP]

This isn't shifting goalposts; these were some of the gateways that Messi had to pass through in order for him to be in the conversation for GOAT status.

I think Messi's achievements are remarkable. I've preferred watching Maradona and I don't think there was anyone more talented than Diego, but I can say that Messi has now surpassed him.

Pelé -> Messi -> Diego.

I forgot the other goalpost that has been shifted - he only won the WC at 35 when Pele did at 17 and Mbappe at 19. Yes, it is remarkable to win a WC at a very young age. It is also remarkable to win it when you are old and your skills are meant to be diminishing.

Pele also won the WC at 30, and at 21

Don't mind cic with his sophistry. He is talking as if experience does not count in a player's growth, and confidently playing like a veteran at 17 is not astonishing (not to mention like a super-human veteran), but is the same as a 35 year old veteran playing like the veteran he is . By his reckoning, Dino Zoff is the GOAT of goalkeepers because he won a World Cup at 40.

For most of his career, Messi was a total World Cup fock-up, showing up 5 times and exhibiting a total lack of cojones in 4 . How can a man who totally lacked national team winning fire throughout his career be declared the GOAT by his uncritical fan boys? In several WCs and Copas the lousy arse wimp Messi could not win to save his life. In his previous 4 World Cups has Messi shown the kind of grit, determination, and "I am not going to let my team lose" attitude shown by Mbappe who is not even in the running for GOAT? Messi only won a World Cup when faced with a French team that was severely depleted by injuries and illness. Useless GOAT of chokers.

No mind them Pa Ohsee

They forget that this same Messi of a Goat wouldn't have won the WC but for the heroics of the Argentine Goalie who saved their blushes during PK Shoot outs against the Dutch and then the French. Messi wasnt even the MVP of the Argentine team in my opinion ..

Furthermore can you imagine Pele being on the field and Brazil losing to teams like Saudi Arabia. Pele alone would have scored like 10 goals

[BAP]

You can find similar pictures of the entire team following Pele. Yet Pele was able to score. If the entire team is following you, pass off the ball. Even assist Messi no fit get. Too many excuses from Messi fan boys. Messi had world class players on the Argie teams like Aguerro, Higuain, Maria husband and let us not forget DM Mascherano. But fan boys just know how to make excuses about why it took their hero 5 World Cups to win one, and worse, won one against a sick and injured French team fielding their 3rd string team . Whom the fake GOAT and his boys could not even beat in regular and extra time.

Pele won one in his first world cup, scoring in the final. Even Mbappe won one in his first, scoring in the final. But Messi fan boys keep complaining about how he is surrounded. Well, pass the ball, or if you say you are the GOAT, score from a cross or corner kick with your leaping and heading ability like Pele. Yoroyoro fake GOAT Messi.

By the way, Maria husband will replace Dumbele any day.

Pele played with great players. If the entire team just followed Pele, Garrincha, Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivellino, etc would destroy them.

You have missed the memo that it is only an assist if a goal is scored. When Higuain chopped chances it's not an assist. Higuain "world class"?? I laugh in Spanish. Aguero was regularly injured and many wondered why Higuain started before him when Aguero was fit.

Di Maria was not fit in the final and was withdrawn after about an hour. When he was on the pitch, France were completely outclassed and losing 2-0. Di Maria also missed the final in 2014. What he offers is a runner with the ball to give the opposition something else to think about. When he is not there, shutting down Messi is a lot easier.

If age when the WC was won is a valid argument, Julian Alvarez just won it at 22, Enzo Fernandez at 21. What does it prove? They must be better than Messi by your dodgy "logic".

You guys are both my men...but I have to say Ohsee is deluded when he lessons the fact that Pele had IMMENSE players around him...whereas Maradona and Messi didn't.



I still tip Pele because he was the most complete and had peak athleticism. Fast, agile, strong, leaper, 2 good feet, peripheral vision, passing, tiki-taka IQ, and leadership.

I have come around to the idea of a GOAT for an era, where not every era will have one. For me there are only 3: Pele, Messi, and Maradona. The farther apart, the more difficult to compare.

But I have 1 stock perspective: how would Pele do today vs Messi yesterday?

I think Pele being peak athlete would reap modern sports science. And be nth degree juggernaut. In contrast, Beckenbauer once famously said of himself that he didn't have the minimum speed to compete in the modern game.

But I think Messi could not have competed well in the era of Pele. He'd be hacked to death. And would lack the sports science and nutrition it took to put added muscle.

Of course, this is all speculation.

OGA Mate

You be my guy but this notion of the GOAT of his era is one heck of an OxyMoron

Instead call it GOHE -- as in "Greatest of His Era" /// There can only be one GOAT and thet is undoubtedly KIng Pele .. no one else comes close

As far as GOHE goes I would even place Zidane , Ronaldo and Ronaldinho before Messi . They had far more tools in their Arsenal .

Messi is a one footed one trick pony whose low C of G aids his ability to maintain close ball control arguably better than anyone currently playing but aside that he has nothing many other players dont have.

BTW: Pele could run the 100m in less than 11 seconds keep in mind that the WR was over 10 seconds during his era. Messi OTOH would run the 100 in 12 seconds despite todays sport medicine advances

Mentioning MESSI in the same breath as Pele is an insult to Pele

[cic old boy]

For the nostalgia freaks.

[ohsee]

This isn't shifting goalposts; these were some of the gateways that Messi had to pass through in order for him to be in the conversation for GOAT status.

I think Messi's achievements are remarkable. I've preferred watching Maradona and I don't think there was anyone more talented than Diego, but I can say that Messi has now surpassed him.

Pelé -> Messi -> Diego.

I forgot the other goalpost that has been shifted - he only won the WC at 35 when Pele did at 17 and Mbappe at 19. Yes, it is remarkable to win a WC at a very young age. It is also remarkable to win it when you are old and your skills are meant to be diminishing.

Pele also won the WC at 30, and at 21

Don't mind cic with his sophistry. He is talking as if experience does not count in a player's growth, and confidently playing like a veteran at 17 is not astonishing (not to mention like a super-human veteran), but is the same as a 35 year old veteran playing like the veteran he is . By his reckoning, Dino Zoff is the GOAT of goalkeepers because he won a World Cup at 40.

For most of his career, Messi was a total World Cup fock-up, showing up 5 times and exhibiting a total lack of cojones in 4 . How can a man who totally lacked national team winning fire throughout his career be declared the GOAT by his uncritical fan boys? In several WCs and Copas the lousy arse wimp Messi could not win to save his life. In his previous 4 World Cups has Messi shown the kind of grit, determination, and "I am not going to let my team lose" attitude shown by Mbappe who is not even in the running for GOAT? Messi only won a World Cup when faced with a French team that was severely depleted by injuries and illness. Useless GOAT of chokers.

No mind them Pa Ohsee

They forget that this same Messi of a Goat wouldn't have won the WC but for the heroics of the Argentine Goalie who saved their blushes during PK Shoot outs against the Dutch and then the French. Messi wasnt even the MVP of the Argentine team in my opinion ..

Furthermore can you imagine Pele being on the field and Brazil losing to teams like Saudi Arabia. Pele alone would have scored like 10 goals

BAP my broda from anoda moda! Welcome back. I missed you. I'm glad you are back. Biko help me to told dem. Especially cic old boy, the Messi worshipper.

[ohsee]

For the nostalgia freaks.

This bobo, you like meaningless quotes. There are tons of video records and statistics about Pele from the past. Why is that memory and not reality? And why is it not reality to say that Messi the choker could not win a WC to save his life in 4 tries and was unable to perform his club magic for his national team? We were all there to see it. Messi is a GOAT for his fan boys. Messi missed the GOAT train long ago. We can have a special (with asterisk) GOAT for one-footed, ground-attack-only club players. Messi should win that easily.

[ohsee]

You guys are both my men...but I have to say Ohsee is deluded when he lessons the fact that Pele had IMMENSE players around him...whereas Maradona and Messi didn't.



I still tip Pele because he was the most complete and had peak athleticism. Fast, agile, strong, leaper, 2 good feet, peripheral vision, passing, tiki-taka IQ, and leadership.

I have come around to the idea of a GOAT for an era, where not every era will have one. For me there are only 3: Pele, Messi, and Maradona. The farther apart, the more difficult to compare.

But I have 1 stock perspective: how would Pele do today vs Messi yesterday?

I think Pele being peak athlete would reap modern sports science. And be nth degree juggernaut. In contrast, Beckenbauer once famously said of himself that he didn't have the minimum speed to compete in the modern game.

But I think Messi could not have competed well in the era of Pele. He'd be hacked to death. And would lack the sports science and nutrition it took to put added muscle.

Of course, this is all speculation.

Have we not already discussed the "immenseness" of the players Pele had around him? The same "immense" players were there in 1966, and as soon as Pele left due to injury, they were knocked out. Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson, Garrincha and Brito were on the team. The only other big name addition for 1970 was Rivelino. And Garrincha was dropped.

They won 1962 basically without Pele.

And you're CRAZY for skipping over so many illustrious 1970 names. Who do you think you're fooling?



Pele is my GOAT. But call it like it is.

But I named them in my post--Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson and Brito. They were there in 1966, and could not win without Pele. Apart from Rivelino, who else could you name from 1970?

[mate]

You guys are both my men...but I have to say Ohsee is deluded when he lessons the fact that Pele had IMMENSE players around him...whereas Maradona and Messi didn't.



I still tip Pele because he was the most complete and had peak athleticism. Fast, agile, strong, leaper, 2 good feet, peripheral vision, passing, tiki-taka IQ, and leadership.

I have come around to the idea of a GOAT for an era, where not every era will have one. For me there are only 3: Pele, Messi, and Maradona. The farther apart, the more difficult to compare.

But I have 1 stock perspective: how would Pele do today vs Messi yesterday?

I think Pele being peak athlete would reap modern sports science. And be nth degree juggernaut. In contrast, Beckenbauer once famously said of himself that he didn't have the minimum speed to compete in the modern game.

But I think Messi could not have competed well in the era of Pele. He'd be hacked to death. And would lack the sports science and nutrition it took to put added muscle.

Of course, this is all speculation.

Have we not already discussed the "immenseness" of the players Pele had around him? The same "immense" players were there in 1966, and as soon as Pele left due to injury, they were knocked out. Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson, Garrincha and Brito were on the team. The only other big name addition for 1970 was Rivelino. And Garrincha was dropped.

They won 1962 basically without Pele.

And you're CRAZY for skipping over so many illustrious 1970 names. Who do you think you're fooling?



Pele is my GOAT. But call it like it is.

But I named them in my post--Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson and Brito. They were there in 1966, and could not win without Pele. Apart from Rivelino, who else could you name from 1970?

Abeg! You keep playing dumb on this.



You know better than anybody it was Gerson, Tostao, Rivelinho, Gerson, Jairzinho, Carlos Alberto, Everaldo. These were no slouches and part of what is considered the greatest Brazilian team ever.

[ohsee]

You guys are both my men...but I have to say Ohsee is deluded when he lessons the fact that Pele had IMMENSE players around him...whereas Maradona and Messi didn't.



I still tip Pele because he was the most complete and had peak athleticism. Fast, agile, strong, leaper, 2 good feet, peripheral vision, passing, tiki-taka IQ, and leadership.

I have come around to the idea of a GOAT for an era, where not every era will have one. For me there are only 3: Pele, Messi, and Maradona. The farther apart, the more difficult to compare.

But I have 1 stock perspective: how would Pele do today vs Messi yesterday?

I think Pele being peak athlete would reap modern sports science. And be nth degree juggernaut. In contrast, Beckenbauer once famously said of himself that he didn't have the minimum speed to compete in the modern game.

But I think Messi could not have competed well in the era of Pele. He'd be hacked to death. And would lack the sports science and nutrition it took to put added muscle.

Of course, this is all speculation.

Have we not already discussed the "immenseness" of the players Pele had around him? The same "immense" players were there in 1966, and as soon as Pele left due to injury, they were knocked out. Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson, Garrincha and Brito were on the team. The only other big name addition for 1970 was Rivelino. And Garrincha was dropped.

They won 1962 basically without Pele.

And you're CRAZY for skipping over so many illustrious 1970 names. Who do you think you're fooling?



Pele is my GOAT. But call it like it is.

But I named them in my post--Tostao, Jairzinho, Gerson and Brito. They were there in 1966, and could not win without Pele. Apart from Rivelino, who else could you name from 1970?

Abeg! You keep playing dumb on this.



You know better than anybody it was Gerson, Tostao, Rivelinho, Gerson, Jairzinho, Carlos Alberto, Everaldo. These were no slouches and part of what is considered the greatest Brazilian team ever.

You named Gerson twice. Carlos Albarto was special for scoring one fabulous goal in the final? As we used to say back in the day, "And then....?" Wharrelse did he do? And what did Everaldo do? The back four of Everaldo, Brito, Wilson Piazza and Carlos Alberto was generally acknowledged to be very incredibly lousy. Why didn't you include Wilson Piazza too? And Felix the eternally complaining goalkeeper?

My friend, the key men of 1970 were there in 1966--Gerson, Tostao, and Jairzinho--only Rivelino was missing. And if he was missing, Garrincha the all-time great was more than an adequate replacement. Garrincha was there in 1966. He and Pele took free kicks. Did not help that Garrincha was there and Pele not.

[cic old boy]

This bobo, you like meaningless quotes. There are tons of video records and statistics about Pele from the past. Why is that memory and not reality? And why is it not reality to say that Messi the choker could not win a WC to save his life in 4 tries and was unable to perform his club magic for his national team? We were all there to see it. Messi is a GOAT for his fan boys. Messi missed the GOAT train long ago. We can have a special (with asterisk) GOAT for one-footed, ground-attack-only club players. Messi should win that easily.

How many full match videos of Pele have you watched? Stats don’t tell the full story about any player. Lukaku’s stats look great until you actually watch him. Pele is about rose-tinted specs of an era where the game wasn’t that much developed and played at walking pace.

Many variables determine results, not least the quality of your teammates. Messi won more with Barca because they were better than Argentina, not much to do with whether Messi played for Argentina as well as he did for his country.

The key to football lies in the name. It’s mainly played with the feet. As Brian Clough said: “If God had meant football to be played in the air he would have put grass in the sky”.

[cic old boy]

You named Gerson twice. Carlos Albarto was special for scoring one fabulous goal in the final? As we used to say back in the day, "And then....?" Wharrelse did he do? And what did Everaldo do? The back four of Everaldo, Brito, Wilson Piazza and Carlos Alberto was generally acknowledged to be very incredibly lousy. Why didn't you include Wilson Piazza too? And Felix the eternally complaining goalkeeper?

My friend, the key men of 1970 were there in 1966--Gerson, Tostao, and Jairzinho--only Rivelino was missing. And if he was missing, Garrincha the all-time great was more than an adequate replacement. Garrincha was there in 1966. He and Pele took free kicks. Did not help that Garrincha was there and Pele not.

Garrincha was the star of the WC in 1958 and 1962 (Pele only played 2 games). In 1966 he was plagued by a knee problem. He also had a drink problem throughout his career.

[ohsee]

This bobo, you like meaningless quotes. There are tons of video records and statistics about Pele from the past. Why is that memory and not reality? And why is it not reality to say that Messi the choker could not win a WC to save his life in 4 tries and was unable to perform his club magic for his national team? We were all there to see it. Messi is a GOAT for his fan boys. Messi missed the GOAT train long ago. We can have a special (with asterisk) GOAT for one-footed, ground-attack-only club players. Messi should win that easily.

How many full match videos of Pele have you watched? Stats don’t tell the full story about any player. Lukaku’s stats look great until you actually watch him. Pele is about rose-tinted specs of an era where the game wasn’t that much developed and played at walking pace.

Many variables determine results, not least the quality of your teammates. Messi won more with Barca because they were better than Argentina, not much to do with whether Messi played for Argentina as well as he did for his country.

The key to football lies in the name. It’s mainly played with the feet. As Brian Clough said: “If God had meant football to be played in the air he would have put grass in the sky”.

More meaningless quotes from Brian Clough of all people. Abeg make we hear word jare.

I have lost count of how many full match videos of Pele I have watched. I used to have the full videos of the 1970 Brazil games I had access to a video archive of full Santos games as well as full Brazil WC games, some of which I downloaded. As I said, I used to write a blog on the greatest players of all time, and as anyone knows, I research to death everything I write.

Your constant claim that views of Pele are "rose tinted" ignores the truth that all kinds of information about Pele from video to histories to stats are available to the diligent researcher, and you too can research Pele videos on the internet. The only reason why you think a limited player like Messi is the GOAT is because, like the typical fanboy, you have not done your homework in this age of vast information.

Your comparing Lukaku to Pele does not merit a response. That is like comparing your parish priest to God.

Yes, the quality of your team mates matters, but you ignore the fact that Pele started kicking butt with an unknown club called Santos at 16-17, while at the same age Messi was bench warming at junior Barca in Segunda Division B. Pele started winning scoring championships IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL SEASON, at the age of 16-17, and went NINE STRAIGHT SEASONS AS TOP SCORER IN THE CAMPEONATO PAULISTA. And Messi? Please, let us not go there . I forgive you for your nonsense talks for you know not what you say or do. You don't want to engage statistics because Pele's statistics are simply out of this world, and non-human.

In all the World Cups I have watched and the Copas, Messi has shown zero signs of the abilities he displayed with Barca. Why is that? Why is your GOAT unable to carry a team? Why does he need history class players to thrive? Pele never needed the kind of players Messi had at Barca to be outstanding at Santos. Again, do your homework my friend. We live in the information age.

[ohsee]

You named Gerson twice. Carlos Albarto was special for scoring one fabulous goal in the final? As we used to say back in the day, "And then....?" Wharrelse did he do? And what did Everaldo do? The back four of Everaldo, Brito, Wilson Piazza and Carlos Alberto was generally acknowledged to be very incredibly lousy. Why didn't you include Wilson Piazza too? And Felix the eternally complaining goalkeeper?

My friend, the key men of 1970 were there in 1966--Gerson, Tostao, and Jairzinho--only Rivelino was missing. And if he was missing, Garrincha the all-time great was more than an adequate replacement. Garrincha was there in 1966. He and Pele took free kicks. Did not help that Garrincha was there and Pele not.

Garrincha was the star of the WC in 1958 and 1962 (Pele only played 2 games). In 1966 he was plagued by a knee problem. He also had a drink problem throughout his career.

Do your homework. Garrincha was ONE OF THE STARS. Pele, this 17 year old who was taken injured to the World Cup in an era in which there were no substitutions, recovered early enough to join the World Cup in the middle, and was Brazil's top scorer, and the second highest scorer at the WC with 6 goals. Now that spectacular and astonishing kid Pele, was THE STAR of the 1958 World Cup. Not Garrincha.

[mate]

Ohsee, I give you know more about dinosaurs than me, as you walked with them.



Please. You keep pushing sophistry to obfuscate Pele had exceptional teammates. Plenty of world class player on the Brazilian NT.

Yes, Messi did with Barca but not Argentina. Messi never had a star studded cast with Argentina. This 2022 WC winner is solid, more balanced than his past Argentina outfits, but hardly filled with world class players.

Take Messi out and no way do Argentina win WC 2002. Give him that.

Finally, like I said, I rate Pele the best if I am forced to choose. But there are great arguments to support either Maradona or Messi.