OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by folem »

cic old boy wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:34 pm Many people proclaiming Pele (who Maradona said belongs in a museum) as the GOAT, including me, only saw highlights. I once watched the full 1970 WC final and it was soooo slow!

The argument of Pele winning 3 WCs comes with caveats. In 1958, he wasn't the star of the team. That was Garrincha, supported by Didi and Vava. In 1962, he got injured after 2 games and Garrincha and Amarildo, Pele's replacement, took over. In 1970, he was the king, but the team had world class talent all over.

How competitive were those WCs? They were essentially Europe/South America championships with only 16 teams. The road to the final was relatively easy.

Contrast that era with today of 24/7 football coverage. I have probably seen about 90% of all Messi's games at Barca, including watching him live at the Camp Nou, and PSG. I've seen his off days, his mistakes, etc. The scrutiny is more today.

People keep shifting the goalposts with Messi. Firstly, he had not done it without Barca. He then won Copa America. They moved to not winning the WC. He then won it, they moved to he only did it at 35 and it's only one win. This was the worst Argentina national team in my lifetime. Some people claim it was Di Maria that made them win. He missed the WC final of 2014 and they lost. He scored in this final and they were cruising 2-0 until he was withdrawn. But he was there in 2010 and 2018.

There is no player in the history of the game that scores as frequently as Messi and creates as much as he does. Is he a midfielder, is he a striker, is he winger? Which other player in history has been on top for for 17 years? The guy has made the abnormal normal. He has made the extraordinary routine.
https://michelacosta.com/messi-vs-ronal ... vs-pele-2/

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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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Last edited by Cito on Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by Cito »

Pele was on a different level man!
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by YUJAM »

He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by Tobi17 »

YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
The most underlining factor to consider when it comes to appreciating the greatness of Pele is that he did some amazing things technique-wise that was considered simply too magical for the era he played in, lots of the techniques and skills he displayed as far back as the '50s are still being used in modern day football today, remember football back in the Pele era was mostly brute force and kick and rush brand of football until Pele and that Brazil team of his generation changed the game with cerebral football interspersed with flair, skill and scientific football...Pele was definitely ahead of his time.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by airwolex »

Tobi17 wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:49 pm
YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
The most underlining factor to consider when it comes to appreciating the greatness of Pele is that he did some amazing things technique-wise that was considered simply too magical for the era he played in, lots of the techniques and skills he displayed as far back as the '50s are still being used in modern day football today, remember football back in the Pele era was mostly brute force and kick and rush brand of football until Pele and that Brazil team of his generation changed the game with cerebral football interspersed with flair, skill and scientific football...Pele was definitely ahead of his time.
Yep, there is actually a video of Pele doing all the modern moves and it will blow your mind. Like I said, there are many things that I have seen him do in clips, that can only be rivaled by Ronaldinho or perhaps Ronaldo.

He was a beast. As for playing in a slow era, not his fault that he was faster than all the slow pokes around him (If true at all).
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
Unfair comparison.
Maradona’s career was wrecked by injuries from goons like “The Butcher of Bilbao” who broke his ankle.
The refs let many fouls go uncalled.

In 1982, Maradona got a red card for retaliation because the match officials were doing nothing about all the nasty fouls.
He came back stronger in the next WC.
BTW, similar events happened to Pele in previous WCs.

Also, the medical treatment was worse than in Messi’s time, which increased recovery. Diego never fully recovered from some of those injuries. He played in pain, quite often.

The pitches were terrible too!
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by wiseone »

Claudio Gentile of Italy 🇮🇹 fouled Maradona 23 times during a game in 1982 (and was not sent off). 23 fouls by one player - on one opposing player (not counting his fouls on other players).

These days, some entire games do not have up to 23 fouls between the entire playing personnel of 32 players and substitutes involved in the game.
Last edited by wiseone on Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by ohsee »

YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
Chief, GOAT is about GREATEST not BEST. Best cannot be determined due to the reasons you state above. It is impossible to bring them together in their prime and compare them in the same environment. But "Greatest" is different, and it looks at extraordinary achievements that transcend era. Some military men think Hannibal is the GOAT of generals. Are you going to dismiss that because Hannibal did not face tanks, aircraft and the computerized warfare of today?

Like most geniuses, Pele did jaw-dropping things, and did them so precociously early that people thought he was not human. A small example: Pele joined Santos Futbol Clube at 16 and was immediately inserted into the starting line-up. Not wanting to put excessive pressure on the kid, the coach Lula alternated him with the club top scorer, Del Vecchio. Well, the kid Pele could think of nothing better to do than to outscore Del Vecchio with 32 goals in all competitions, playing only half the games (source is Pele: his life and times by Harry Harris. Wikipedia gives 41 goals in all (38) domestic appearances, a number derived from the archives.). In fact, the kid was the top scorer in the state of Sao Paulo in his first year as a 16-17 year old professional, playing only half the games.

In any era, in any league, in any sport, that is simply freak of nature stuff.

It is futile to claim that it was easier then, given that no 16-year-olds were even close to doing anything like this before or at the time, and it was just as astonishing then as it is now.

The list of Pele's era transcending extraordinary achievements is long. Messi is not even in the running. Those who think Messi is have not done their homework.
Last edited by ohsee on Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by cic old boy »

Antonio Cassano makes some of my points.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by ohsee »

cic old boy wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:01 pm Antonio Cassano makes some of my points.
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So? What has a breathless, neither here nor there opinion have to do with anything? :biggrin: Four penaritis out of seven so only three "real" goals :rotf:, and one penarity miss. :rotf: Given the eagerness of refs to "help" Messi, who is surprised that the Argies got so many penaritis? :biggrin:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by danfo driver »

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
ohsee wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:05 pm
cic old boy wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:01 pm Antonio Cassano makes some of my points.
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So? What has a breathless, neither here nor there opinion have to do with anything? :biggrin: Four penaritis out of seven so only three "real" goals :rotf:, and one penarity miss. :rotf: Given the eagerness of refs to "help" Messi, who is surprised that the Argies got so many penaritis? :biggrin:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by mate »

YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.

I'm coming around to your view. The more I look at this fascinating topic...the more I also conclude: So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by airwolex »

Messi is one of the goats...but for me he will always be 2 of 5 in finals for Argentina. Two of those loses were against Chile of all Countries (I stand to be corrected)

That, for me speaks volumes about the man. Definitely one of a fragile disposition. Fair plays for this WC though, he really duh deep.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by YemiBrazil »

GOAT = PELE!!!

Any other goat is a counterfeit.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by YUJAM »

Chief
Talking about great feats, look at these stats

https://michelacosta.com/messi-vs-ronal ... vs-pele-2/

The charts bear out your point that Pele was more prolific early in his career but then Messi starts outperforming Pele later in their careers and surpasses him in goals scored at 31 to be specific. By 25, the gap between the two is 349 goals scored (362 vs 313) but by 31 Messi catches up with Pele. This is an interesting fact that indicates that Messi is a more prolific scorer after 25

ohsee wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 4:47 pm
YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
Chief, GOAT is about GREATEST not BEST. Best cannot be determined due to the reasons you state above. It is impossible to bring them together in their prime and compare them in the same environment. But "Greatest" is different, and it looks at extraordinary achievements that transcend era. Some military men think Hannibal is the GOAT of generals. Are you going to dismiss that because Hannibal did not face tanks, aircraft and the computerized warfare of today?

Like most geniuses, Pele did jaw-dropping things, and did them so precociously early that people thought he was not human. A small example: Pele joined Santos Futbol Clube at 16 and was immediately inserted into the starting line-up. Not wanting to put excessive pressure on the kid, the coach Lula alternated him with the club top scorer, Del Vecchio. Well, the kid Pele could think of nothing better to do than to outscore Del Vecchio with 32 goals in all competitions, playing only half the games (source is Pele: his life and times by Harry Harris. Wikipedia gives 41 goals in all (38) domestic appearances, a number derived from the archives.). In fact, the kid was the top scorer in the state of Sao Paulo in his first year as a 16-17 year old professional, playing only half the games.

In any era, in any league, in any sport, that is simply freak of nature stuff.

It is futile to claim that it was easier then, given that no 16-year-olds were even close to doing anything like this before or at the time, and it was just as astonishing then as it is now.

The list of Pele's era transcending extraordinary achievements is long. Messi is not even in the running. Those who think Messi is have not done their homework.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by theDunamis »

YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:00 pm Chief
Talking about great feats, look at these stats

https://michelacosta.com/messi-vs-ronal ... vs-pele-2/

The charts bear out your point that Pele was more prolific early in his career but then Messi starts outperforming Pele later in their careers and surpasses him in goals scored at 31 to be specific. By 25, the gap between the two is 349 goals scored (362 vs 313) but by 31 Messi catches up with Pele. This is an interesting fact that indicates that Messi is a more prolific scorer after 25

That is a shaky conclusion if you don't control for number of games played. Any comparison around prolificity has to factor in number of games.

The stats on that webpage start with these important data points:

Pele "scores every 88' Assists every 194' Involved every 61'" based on a total of 812 games. Ratio of 0.93

Messi "scores every 104' Assists every 235' Involved every 72" based on a total of 1003 games. Ratio of 0.79
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:00 pm Chief
Talking about great feats, look at these stats

https://michelacosta.com/messi-vs-ronal ... vs-pele-2/

The charts bear out your point that Pele was more prolific early in his career but then Messi starts outperforming Pele later in their careers and surpasses him in goals scored at 31 to be specific. By 25, the gap between the two is 349 goals scored (362 vs 313) but by 31 Messi catches up with Pele. This is an interesting fact that indicates that Messi is a more prolific scorer after 25
Chief, I think you have missed the point. It is not about something as superficial as who is a more prolific goalscorer. Please read my post again.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by ohsee »

mate wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:34 pm
YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.

I'm coming around to your view. The more I look at this fascinating topic...the more I also conclude: So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
:biggrin:
Yes, let us be nice Canadians, make everyone happy, and give everyone a GOAT. :biggrin: Thus to my father, Sir Stanley Matthews was his GOAT, to my grandson, it will be Mbappe. :thumbs: mate, you better be careful: America will rescind your citizenship because you have forgotten how to be American. :biggrin:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by mate »

ohsee wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:35 am
mate wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:34 pm
YUJAM wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:50 am He’s definitely surpassed Maradona in
my view. Maradona’s time at very top lasted three years whereas Messi has been at the top of world football for his entire 17 year career.

However, Pele had a prolific long career but he also played at a time when the game was quite different both from a stylistic and rules perspective. These differences in the game then and now make it very difficult to compare the two greats. How would Pele have done in the faster and more demanding modern game? Would Messi handle the brutal tackles and rough play at the time? There are simply too many hypotheticals involved in a comparison between the two to effectively say who is the GOAT.

So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.

I'm coming around to your view. The more I look at this fascinating topic...the more I also conclude: So my view is they can all be GOATs. Pele in his own era and ditto for Messi.
:biggrin:
Yes, let us be nice Canadians, make everyone happy, and give everyone a GOAT. :biggrin: Thus to my father, Sir Stanley Matthews was his GOAT, to my grandson, it will be Mbappe. :thumbs: mate, you better be careful: America will rescind your citizenship because you have forgotten how to be American. :biggrin:


I'm for temporal ranged based meritocracy.

I'll never be a CANADIAN. I earn and keep most of my money...and like making the WC better than once every 34 years!

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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by F360 »

Kabalega wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:41 am
F360 wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:43 am
mate wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:43 am Ok, my friend who was Pele's teammate said the following, translated from Croatian, comparing Pele to Messi:

Pele was a more complete player than Messi. Pele had a better head, left and right foot, and built the ball better...for me, the best of all ❤️.

The term built is literal and doesn't translate as well into English. What it contextually really means is: Pele worked the ball better than Messi. He left a heart in his text to me, as he loved Pele.

A FIFA sports photographer I know also covered Pele back in the day. Of course he too says Pele was the more complete player.

Finally, most folks I surveyed say not to fall into the trap of comparing across many generation. But rather to indeed consider the GOAT of a generation and how they dominated.


Solved, right?

:?:
Brilliant! That's exactly how i feel and what I try to tell people trying to label someone the GOAT. That might work in the NFL with Tom Brady but for futbol it's probably best to go with GOAT of your lifetime or generation.
It doesn’t work there either. Tom Brady is in a member of the over protected QB generation.
The over protection of QBs doesn't discount from the fact that he has won the most Super Bowls and put up ridiculous stats that only few in the over protected QB generation have matched, bettered or come close to matching.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by F360 »

cic old boy wrote: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:34 pm Many people proclaiming Pele (who Maradona said belongs in a museum) as the GOAT, including me, only saw highlights. I once watched the full 1970 WC final and it was soooo slow!

The argument of Pele winning 3 WCs comes with caveats. In 1958, he wasn't the star of the team. That was Garrincha, supported by Didi and Vava. In 1962, he got injured after 2 games and Garrincha and Amarildo, Pele's replacement, took over. In 1970, he was the king, but the team had world class talent all over.

How competitive were those WCs? They were essentially Europe/South America championships with only 16 teams. The road to the final was relatively easy.

Contrast that era with today of 24/7 football coverage. I have probably seen about 90% of all Messi's games at Barca, including watching him live at the Camp Nou, and PSG. I've seen his off days, his mistakes, etc. The scrutiny is more today.

People keep shifting the goalposts with Messi. Firstly, he had not done it without Barca. He then won Copa America. They moved to not winning the WC. He then won it, they moved to he only did it at 35 and it's only one win. This was the worst Argentina national team in my lifetime. Some people claim it was Di Maria that made them win. He missed the WC final of 2014 and they lost. He scored in this final and they were cruising 2-0 until he was withdrawn. But he was there in 2010 and 2018.

There is no player in the history of the game that scores as frequently as Messi and creates as much as he does. Is he a midfielder, is he a striker, is he winger? Which other player in history has been on top for for 17 years? The guy has made the abnormal normal. He has made the extraordinary routine.
Pele might not have been THE star in 58 but he was definitely one of the stars. A 16 year old scoring six goals???

Everything you mentioned about Messi is what makes him the greatest of our lifetime. Above CR7, Zidane, Platini and right next to or slightly above Maradona. But greatest ever....Pele also existed.
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