OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

[The YeyeMan]

Antonio Cassano makes some of my points.

He scored a lot of penalties in the last WC.

[The YeyeMan]

Many people proclaiming Pele (who Maradona said belongs in a museum) as the GOAT, including me, only saw highlights. I once watched the full 1970 WC final and it was soooo slow!

The argument of Pele winning 3 WCs comes with caveats. In 1958, he wasn't the star of the team. That was Garrincha, supported by Didi and Vava. In 1962, he got injured after 2 games and Garrincha and Amarildo, Pele's replacement, took over. In 1970, he was the king, but the team had world class talent all over.

How competitive were those WCs? They were essentially Europe/South America championships with only 16 teams. The road to the final was relatively easy.

Contrast that era with today of 24/7 football coverage. I have probably seen about 90% of all Messi's games at Barca, including watching him live at the Camp Nou, and PSG. I've seen his off days, his mistakes, etc. The scrutiny is more today.

People keep shifting the goalposts with Messi. Firstly, he had not done it without Barca. He then won Copa America. They moved to not winning the WC. He then won it, they moved to he only did it at 35 and it's only one win. This was the worst Argentina national team in my lifetime. Some people claim it was Di Maria that made them win. He missed the WC final of 2014 and they lost. He scored in this final and they were cruising 2-0 until he was withdrawn. But he was there in 2010 and 2018.

There is no player in the history of the game that scores as frequently as Messi and creates as much as he does. Is he a midfielder, is he a striker, is he winger? Which other player in history has been on top for for 17 years? The guy has made the abnormal normal. He has made the extraordinary routine.

This isn't shifting goalposts; these were some of the gateways that Messi had to pass through in order for him to be in the conversation for GOAT status.

I think Messi's achievements are remarkable. I've preferred watching Maradona and I don't think there was anyone more talented than Diego, but I can say that Messi has now surpassed him.

Pelé -> Messi -> Diego.

[Bigpokey24]

Antonio Cassano makes some of my points.

So? What has a breathless, neither here nor there opinion have to do with anything? Four penaritis out of seven so only three "real" goals , and one penarity miss. Given the eagerness of refs to "help" Messi, who is surprised that the Argies got so many penaritis?

CIC is so daft kai

[wiseone]

This is the type of brutal treatment that Pele had to endure in his era. All of these would be red cards today. Someone even hit him with a WWE style flying elbow smash (in addition to the kicks to the head and studs up tackles from behind). Not a single red card was shown to any of the violent assailants.

[Scipio Africanus]

This is the type of brutal treatment that Pele had to endure in his era. All of these would be red cards today. Someone even hit him with a WWE style flying elbow smash (in addition to the kicks to the head and studs up tackles from behind). Not a single red card was shown to any of the violent assailants.

Particularly galling is 0.23 . An Argentine #9 that crunches Pele with a brutal tackle and then stands over him and berates him. Argies have always been a$$holes

[Coach]

Back when the game was its most brutiful. Prof Pulis would’ve been a Lord and Emperor in such an era.

[cic old boy]

So? What has a breathless, neither here nor there opinion have to do with anything? Four penaritis out of seven so only three "real" goals , and one penarity miss. Given the eagerness of refs to "help" Messi, who is surprised that the Argies got so many penaritis?

I said he made some of my points. Those points are about the positions that Messi plays. Pep made the same points. When a former Italian international and Guardiola say something I've said, it means I'm in good company.

[cic old boy]

CIC is so daft kai

Mr Follow Follow and the daftest person on the forum puts mouth in the matter without understanding the subject.

[cic old boy]

This isn't shifting goalposts; these were some of the gateways that Messi had to pass through in order for him to be in the conversation for GOAT status.

I think Messi's achievements are remarkable. I've preferred watching Maradona and I don't think there was anyone more talented than Diego, but I can say that Messi has now surpassed him.

Pelé -> Messi -> Diego.

I forgot the other goalpost that has been shifted - he only won the WC at 35 when Pele did at 17 and Mbappe at 19. Yes, it is remarkable to win a WC at a very young age. It is also remarkable to win it when you are old and your skills are meant to be diminishing.

[Bigpokey24]

CIC is so daft kai

Mr Follow Follow and the daftest person on the forum puts mouth in the matter without understanding the subject.

why are you getting sensitive?

[Scipio Africanus]

This isn't shifting goalposts; these were some of the gateways that Messi had to pass through in order for him to be in the conversation for GOAT status.

I think Messi's achievements are remarkable. I've preferred watching Maradona and I don't think there was anyone more talented than Diego, but I can say that Messi has now surpassed him.

Pelé -> Messi -> Diego.

I forgot the other goalpost that has been shifted - he only won the WC at 35 when Pele did at 17 and Mbappe at 19. Yes, it is remarkable to win a WC at a very young age. It is also remarkable to win it when you are old and your skills are meant to be diminishing.

Pele also won the WC at 30, and at 21

[mate]

This is the type of brutal treatment that Pele had to endure in his era. All of these would be red cards today. Someone even hit him with a WWE style flying elbow smash (in addition to the kicks to the head and studs up tackles from behind). Not a single red card was shown to any of the violent assailants.

Particularly galling is 0.23 . An Argentine #9 that crunches Pele with a brutal tackle and then stands over him and berates him. Argies have always been a$$holes

It was savage. Again, it's hard to compare across such large expanses of time...but I have little doubt Pele and Maradona would have benefited with better protection against violence. And that Messi would not have done as well getting such treatment.

The more I think about it...the more I am thinking it's best to declare a GOAT of an era, assuming there is one.

For me there are 3 GOATS: Pele, Maradona, and Messi.

[cic old boy]

[F360]

Mourinho has obviously never met hardcore Cristiano Ronaldo fans. (Same would also apply for harcore Messi/Barca fans as well).

[GG of G]

How many did Pele and Maradona score? Sometimes you can’t just spew what you read on Wikipedia without context.

Messi is in the GOAT conversation no matter how you dice it.

He may not be the greatest of all but for me who never watched Pele or barely old enough to watch Maradona, Messi is the GOAT of his generation for now.

Great point about context.



If you get a chance, watch videos of Pele and Maradona. They will of course awe you, especially compared to the competition.

But I think young folks like you will notice a huge difference in the speed and 90 minute running...especially time and space on the ball.

is football all about distance covered?

[GG of G]

Here are the GOATs
1. Football - Pele
2. Basketball - Michael Jordan
3. Golf - Tiger Woods
4. Female Tennis - Serena Williams
5. F1 - Michael Schumacher
6. Chess - Garry Kasparov

I can't comment on other sports since I don't play or follow them. Thanks for concluding the discussion on this note.

[ohsee]

This isn't shifting goalposts; these were some of the gateways that Messi had to pass through in order for him to be in the conversation for GOAT status.

I think Messi's achievements are remarkable. I've preferred watching Maradona and I don't think there was anyone more talented than Diego, but I can say that Messi has now surpassed him.

Pelé -> Messi -> Diego.

I forgot the other goalpost that has been shifted - he only won the WC at 35 when Pele did at 17 and Mbappe at 19. Yes, it is remarkable to win a WC at a very young age. It is also remarkable to win it when you are old and your skills are meant to be diminishing.

Pele also won the WC at 30, and at 21

Don't mind cic with his sophistry. He is talking as if experience does not count in a player's growth, and confidently playing like a veteran at 17 is not astonishing (not to mention like a super-human veteran), but is the same as a 35 year old veteran playing like the veteran he is . By his reckoning, Dino Zoff is the GOAT of goalkeepers because he won a World Cup at 40.

For most of his career, Messi was a total World Cup fock-up, showing up 5 times and exhibiting a total lack of cojones in 4 . How can a man who totally lacked national team winning fire throughout his career be declared the GOAT by his uncritical fan boys? In several WCs and Copas the lousy arse wimp Messi could not win to save his life. In his previous 4 World Cups has Messi shown the kind of grit, determination, and "I am not going to let my team lose" attitude shown by Mbappe who is not even in the running for GOAT? Messi only won a World Cup when faced with a French team that was severely depleted by injuries and illness. Useless GOAT of chokers.

[theDunamis]

Dear Messianic Movement,

Please note that no GOATs were hurt or missing in the making of this video...

[Bigpokey24]

Here are the GOATs
1. Football - Pele
2. Basketball - Michael Jordan
3. Golf - Tiger Woods
4. Female Tennis - Serena Williams
5. F1 - Michael Schumacher
6. Chess - Garry Kasparov

I can't comment on other sports since I don't play or follow them. Thanks for concluding the discussion on this note.

End of Discussion

[cic old boy]

Don't mind cic with his sophistry. He is talking as if experience does not count in a player's growth, and confidently playing like a veteran at 17 is not astonishing (not to mention like a super-human veteran), but is the same as a 35 year old veteran playing like the veteran he is . By his reckoning, Dino Zoff is the GOAT of goalkeepers because he won a World Cup at 40.

For most of his career, Messi was a total World Cup fock-up, showing up 5 times and exhibiting a total lack of cojones in 4 . How can a man who totally lacked national team winning fire throughout his career be declared the GOAT by his uncritical fan boys? In several WCs and Copas the lousy arse wimp Messi could not win to save his life. In his previous 4 World Cups has Messi shown the kind of grit, determination, and "I am not going to let my team lose" attitude shown by Mbappe who is not even in the running for GOAT? Messi only won a World Cup when faced with a French team that was severely depleted by injuries and illness. Useless GOAT of chokers.

Don't let the small matter of Messi being the Player of the Tournament in 2014 get in the way of your story.

[ohsee]

Don't mind cic with his sophistry. He is talking as if experience does not count in a player's growth, and confidently playing like a veteran at 17 is not astonishing (not to mention like a super-human veteran), but is the same as a 35 year old veteran playing like the veteran he is . By his reckoning, Dino Zoff is the GOAT of goalkeepers because he won a World Cup at 40.

For most of his career, Messi was a total World Cup fock-up, showing up 5 times and exhibiting a total lack of cojones in 4 . How can a man who totally lacked national team winning fire throughout his career be declared the GOAT by his uncritical fan boys? In several WCs and Copas the lousy arse wimp Messi could not win to save his life. In his previous 4 World Cups has Messi shown the kind of grit, determination, and "I am not going to let my team lose" attitude shown by Mbappe who is not even in the running for GOAT? Messi only won a World Cup when faced with a French team that was severely depleted by injuries and illness. Useless GOAT of chokers.

Don't let the small matter of Messi being the Player of the Tournament in 2014 get in the way of your story.

Of course. He wins in an opinion vote (something regularly and uncritically dashed to him every year ) as opposed to actually winning the tournament . He was a total dud in the 2014 final, stamping aimlessly around the pitch like a lost little boy. By the way, the "Player of the Tournament" could not buy a goal in the knockout stages.

[mate]

Dear Messianic Movement,

Please note that no GOATs were hurt or missing in the making of this video...

Thanks for posting this.

ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS!!!

RIP King Pele. I will remember you forever. My father passed last year, but always brought up your name from my earliest days in the 70s learning football.

You and Diego are surely having a showdown on the pitches of Heaven.

Thanks for the memories, all of you!

[wiseone]

This video is mesmeric. All the skills that fans fawn over when they see modern players do: Pele did them in the days of black and white TV. Watch this video montage of Pele doing the same skills as Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona, Cruyff et al. Everything you saw them do, Pele did it first.