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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by txj »

Danf Driver NOW:
danfo driver wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:35 amyou spoke a lot about many things, but never discussed the actual issues I raised. Here is the crux of the matter and I dare you to debate any of these --

1. Pep is significantly more successful than Klopp, FACT!

2. Pep has 6 titles in 10 years, Klopp has 2. FACT!

3. Pep has 33 trophies, Klopp has 10, FACT!

4. Pep is younger than Klopp and has succeeded in life more than an older klopp! Fact!!

5. Pep is a better and more accomplished coach then Klopp! Fact!

6. Klopp is not in the same level as Pep in the ranking for best coach of all time! Fact!!

The facts are clear. Klopp is not on the same level as Pep. for that to happen, Pep probably has to retire today and Klopp will still need another 20 years to win 33 trophies and 6 titles.


Danfo Driver THEN:
danfo driver wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:22 pm GUARDIOLA: THE CHECKBOOK MANAGER!

A few injuries and NO TRANSFER WINDOW TO GO OUT AND SPLASH 300 MILLION and he cannot handle it! :oops: :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol: Tufiakwa!


If he was a real coach, he would be able to go to the youth team and use a CB there. But no, he cant! he cant because all his career it is clear that it is money that has won every title he has ever won! PEP BEING EXPOSED FOR THE FRAUD THAT HE IS! :clap:
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by danfo driver »

txj wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:03 pm

First he inherited a CL winning team from Rikjaard. He inherited what was one of the most complete squads in modern football history at Barca.
Luxury.
Okay.
The goes on to Munich where he can cherry pick the best Bundesliga players, plus adding Madrid players to booth.
Luxury..
Okay
Only an uneducated will believe the above fee for Haaland. The65mp is the fee to BVB. The agency fee alone is 50mp and another 45mp to his father...
Cool, please kindly provide the following:

1. The documents with the agency fee and bank statement of Mr. Haaland, the Father; and
2. the agency fee and the fee paid to Mr. Van Dijk, the Father.

Or are we to understand that only Man City pays agency fee? And Liverpool doesnt?

Are we to also believe that Liverpool doesnt like Fathers?
Then the players salaries bring it up to 250mp
Please kindly provide the following:

1. Documents showing Haaland's salary; and
2. the salary paid to Van Dijk.

Are we to assume that Liverpool doesnt pay salaries? Was that why you only provided the transfer fee of Van Dijk and refused to provide the salary?

Thanks!
Last edited by danfo driver on Wed May 18, 2022 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

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danfo driver wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:35 am
you spoke a lot about many things, but never discussed the actual issues I raised. Here is the crux of the matter and I dare you to debate any of these --

1. Pep is significantly more successful than Klopp, FACT!

2. Pep has 6 titles in 10 years, Klopp has 2. FACT!

3. Pep has 33 trophies, Klopp has 10, FACT!

4. Pep is younger than Klopp and has succeeded in life more than an older klopp! Fact!!

5. Pep is a better and more accomplished coach then Klopp! Fact!

6. Klopp is not in the same level as Pep in the ranking for best coach of all time! Fact!!

The facts are clear. Klopp is not on the same level as Pep. for that to happen, Pep probably has to retire today and Klopp will still need another 20 years to win 33 trophies and 6 titles.
Awaiting your response to these. I expect that you will be able to provide a serious debate to these FACTS and debunk them. If you do not, then we will know that you agree with every single prong written.
"it is better to be excited now and disappointed later, than it is to be disappointed now and later." - Marcus Aurelius, 178AD
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by The YeyeMan »

It's clear danfo isn't being serious but it's an interesting discussion so let's continue.

Firstly, his logic is flawed. You can't call Pep an "inheritance merchant" and a "fraud" and then laud him as the greatest manager of all time. It just doesn't compute. But let's continue.

Like I said earlier, using numbers without context is a fool's game. Pep has won those accolades because he's been parachuted into clubs where success has been established and is sustainable. He's never had the difficulty of building a team from ground up like Klopp had to do at Mainz, Dortmund and Liverpool. This effort takes time and isn't designed to yield trophies immediately - especially so in Germany where Klopp's best talents were pinched by their main rival - including Pep.

Tellingly, in their head to head meetings, Klopp has more victories.

Pep is one of the greats but he's had serious financial backing which has far exceeded that of his rivals (bar his time in Spain where Madrid could compete financially). And this is a significant factor for his success.

You can say things like "Pep has 33 trophies, Klopp has 10, FACT!" but that doesn't tell us the story behind those numbers. It's basic, it's not analysis.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by txj »

The YeyeMan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:23 pm It's clear danfo isn't being serious but it's an interesting discussion so let's continue

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

I look forward to continuing it here:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=275579&p=4894894&h ... t#p4894894
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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by danfo driver »

The YeyeMan wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:23 pm Firstly, his logic is flawed. You can't call Pep an "inheritance merchant" and a "fraud" and then laud him as the greatest manager of all time. It just doesn't compute. But let's continue.
First, Unfortunately, I dont think you know how logic works. A fraud can be the greatest of all time. An ugly woman can be the most beautiful in a room and a very long route can be the shortest route to a destination. You simply must understand this simplicity, mustn't you?

But more importantly, the issue here is whether or not Pep is better than Klopp. EMPHATICALLY YES! the competition is not even close. Once again, I call your attention to their trophy cabinet, title cabinet and objective success over the clubs they have both coached. It is very clear that Klopp is multiple levels below Guardiola. I am stunned you even think that this is debatable. Klopp is not even at the level of the likes of Fergie, Cruyff, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Capello, Hitzfeld etc... not to speak of Pep. I wouldnt even class him on the same level as Zidane, who is younger, but a more successful coach.

In the last 7 years -

Klopp (54 years old) - 6 trophies (1 titles)
Zidane (49 years old) - 11 trophies (2 titles)
Like I said earlier, using numbers without context is a fool's game. Pep has won those accolades because he's been parachuted into clubs where success has been established and is sustainable. He's never had the difficulty of building a team from ground up like Klopp had to do at Mainz, Dortmund and Liverpool.


Mainz
- First full season - not promoted
- second season - not promoted
- 3rd season - promoted, but didnt win the title
- 4th season - 11th
- 5th season - 11th
- 6th season - relegated
- 7th season - not promoted

Borussia Dortmund
- Fist season - 6th
- second season - 5th
- 3rd season - 1st
- 4th season - 1st
- 5th season - 2nd
- 6th season - 2nd
- 7th season - 7th

Liverpool

You know his record. Needing 5 years to actually win something. His first season was abysmal, finishing 8th!

It is clear from his record that he is not the type of coach that can go in and win immediately! he cannot do it. Doesnt have the ability. He needs years and years to spend before he is able to compete. At liverpool, he needed half a billion pounds in order to compete! HALF A BILLION POUNDS! This is the same Liverpool that under Rodgers two years before finished 2nd!!
This effort takes time and isn't designed to yield trophies immediately - especially so in Germany where Klopp's best talents were pinched by their main rival - including Pep.
The effort only takes times for coaches who are simply NOT good enough to win immediately! Fact! The likes of Pep, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Zidane etc etc go to clubs and win in their first year! It is demanded of them and they do it! Klopp needs 5 years to do it. There is levels and then there is levels.

Its interesting that Pep coached Barca B for one season and FOR THAT ONE SEASON, HE WON THE TROPHY! His first season!! Had it been Klopp, he would need 5 years there before he can win.
Tellingly, in their head to head meetings, Klopp has more victories.
Tellingly, 33 - 10.
Pep is one of the greats but he's had serious financial backing which has far exceeded that of his rivals (bar his time in Spain where Madrid could compete financially). And this is a significant factor for his success.
And the half a billion Klopp spent in order to finally win is what? Why could he not win before his half a billion?
You can say things like "Pep has 33 trophies, Klopp has 10, FACT!" but that doesn't tell us the story behind those numbers. It's basic, it's not analysis.
it actually tells the whole story.

Once again, Klopp spent half a billion to win, after struggling to win for 5 years. All his career, whenever he hasnt had money, he has struggled! Even relegating Mainz! He needs the most expensive goalkeeper and defender and spend more than 90% of the league in order to actually compete.


Please lets be factual in our analysis.

Its a very simple question and one with a Yes or a NO response. Who is the better coach, Pep or Klopp? The FACT IS VERY CLEAR! NO DEBATE!
"it is better to be excited now and disappointed later, than it is to be disappointed now and later." - Marcus Aurelius, 178AD
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by danfo driver »

Another coach who I can say has performed better than Klopp is Oliver Glasner, who is 47 year old (younger than Klopp). First, I can confidently say he can win in his first season. Something I can confidently say Klopp cannot do. And unlike Klopp, he doesnt need to spend half a billion to win.

He was hired by Eintracht Frankfurt in the summer of 2021 and spent 12.5m pounds (Note that 5.4m pounds of the 12.5m were loan fees). He went on to win the Europa league this season.

Secondly, this is his record, which when relatively compared to Klopp's, is better.

LASK
- first season (Div 2) - promoted
- second season (Div 1) - 4th (qualified for Europa League)
- 3rd season (Div 1) - 2nd (qualified for Champions League)

VfL Wolfsburg
- first season - 7th (Europa League)
- second season - 4th (Champions League)

Frankfurt
-first season - Europa League


He has also never been relegated, like Klopp.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by MYMIND »

Danfo's COACH logic is flawed but, nonetheless, he dislikes Liverpool with a passion. He talks about Liverpool more than his own favored club. It is best to avoid topics where you have subjective views and your history reveals your prejudice.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

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MYMIND wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:28 am Danfo's COACH logic is flawed but,
It isnt. I actually studied logic and analysis.

You want to rank performance of a person based on the fact that you like the person and he is your favorite coach. Thats subjective and doesnt work that way.

I dont like Guardiola, but the facts are the facts!
nonetheless, he dislikes Liverpool with a passion.


:rotf: :rotf: I understand you want to feel important. However, I dont have any feelings towards Liverpool. Zero! Like or dislike. In fact, I rarely think about you guys. :rotf: :rotf: I despise Arsenal with a passion-- Fact! Outside Arsenal, I dont really care to dislike any other team.
He talks about Liverpool more than his own favored club.
I dont have a favored club. I support one team - Super Eagles, which is a national team.
It is best to avoid topics where you have subjective views and your history reveals your prejudice.
Thanks!
"it is better to be excited now and disappointed later, than it is to be disappointed now and later." - Marcus Aurelius, 178AD
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by danfo driver »

The YeyeMan wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:03 am Just admit you've contradicted yourself and move on. That's all.
Again, thats not how contradiction works. You didnt answer my question, can the things I listed co-exist?

You've only proven an ability to count. Not to analyse.
Okay
danfo driver wrote: Klopp took over from Rodgers that season and reached the finals of the League Cup and the Europa League with Rodgers' limited players. He qualified for the Champions League in his first full season. This is not an abysmal record. Meanwhile, Pep was high on Bayern's money and failing to reach CL finals which is why you called him a fraud and an inheritance merchant.
You have not spoken about Klopp's record at Mainz and Dortmund. Is there a reason you are afraid to analyze it?

Additionally, did it take Klopp 5 years to win a trophy at Liverpool? Yes or no?

I like facts, not emotions. The facts are that Klopp could not win a trophy until he spent 500 million. Why is that the case? Why does he need significant financial resources to win?
If you don't think Klopp would have won a league title in his first season at Bayern, had he joined, then I don't know what to tell you.
I am not sure how to help you. You seem unwilling to be factual and want to be emotional in your analysis. Has Klopp ever won anything in his first season??? I mean, even League Cup? Any small cup at all. Doesnt have to be the title. Has he ever won anything at all in his first season anywhere in his life? It could be division 2! Please respond. Thank you.
In life you'll realise that some people want to challenge themselves and don't take the easy path. It makes the success, if it happens, all the more greater. Some people want to inherit success. That's why you called Pep the inheritance merchant.
You are a bit emotional about this, friend. How come Oliver Glasner took the harder way in life and was still able to win, but Klopp couldnt?
danfo driver wrote:Once again, Klopp spent half a billion to win, after struggling to win for 5 years. All his career, whenever he hasnt had money, he has struggled! Even relegating Mainz! He needs the most expensive goalkeeper and defender and spend more than 90% of the league in order to actually compete.
Klopp/Liverpool buy (and crucially) sell players in order to remain competitive and compete with Pep's petro-dollar Gulf-state backed opposition. Pep can afford to spend £100m on a player and leave him on the bench. He'd struggle without huge financial backing and that's why you called him a fraud and an inheritance merchant.
[/quote]

You didnt respond to my inquiry though. Why did Klopp get relegated when he couldnt spend money, but needed 500 million to win in Liverpool after 5 years of 0 trophies?
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by The YeyeMan »

danfo driver wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:57 pm Again, thats not how contradiction works. You didnt answer my question, can the things I listed co-exist?
Can contradictions co-exist? Yes, you've proven it by calling Pep a fraud, inheritance merchant, and the best coach of all time. Can this position be taken seriously? No.
danfo driver wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:57 pm I like facts, not emotions. The facts are that Klopp could not win a trophy until he spent 500 million. Why is that the case? Why does he need significant financial resources to win?
He doesn't. As proven by his time at Dortmund, which I'm happy to talk about.

danfo driver wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:57 pm I am not sure how to help you. You seem unwilling to be factual and want to be emotional in your analysis. Has Klopp ever won anything in his first season??? I mean, even League Cup? Any small cup at all. Doesnt have to be the title. Has he ever won anything at all in his first season anywhere in his life? It could be division 2! Please respond. Thank you.
He hasn't. Your point?

danfo driver wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:57 pm You are a bit emotional about this, friend. How come Oliver Glasner took the harder way in life and was still able to win, but Klopp couldnt?
Not emotional my friend, just passing on some life lessons and experience. Not everyone wants to inherit success - but you already know this - it's why you called Pep the inheritance merchant. Btw Oliver Glasner's first job was at Salzburg - he hasn't had a harder path than Klopp. And he won his first trophy after eight years of management.

danfo driver wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:57 pm You didnt respond to my inquiry though. Why did Klopp get relegated when he couldnt spend money, but needed 500 million to win in Liverpool after 5 years of 0 trophies?
Why is Klopp held in the highest regard at Mainz? - never mind BVB and Liverpool. Because despite having the smallest budget he got them promoted to the Bundesliga and qualified for the UEFA Cup. Yes, they were relegated, they're a small team. Here's another life lesson - you experience failure, loss but you can pick yourself up again. Life typically isn't littered with success upon success - unless one is lucky or has an inherited advantage - just like Pep - when you called him the inheritance merchant.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by danfo driver »

The YeyeMan wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:40 pm Can contradictions co-exist? Yes, you've proven it by calling Pep a fraud, inheritance merchant, and the best coach of all time.
Thank you for your response.
Can this position be taken seriously? No.
This is your personal opinion-- not shared by a large number of the world's population. After all "an old car can be the newest car in the garage"
danfo driver wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:57 pm He doesn't. As proven by his time at Dortmund, which I'm happy to talk about.
That would be nice. Can we discuss about Dortmund and Mainz, including the relation.

Specifically at dortmund, during his time there, he spent more than 184 million Euros to win only 2 titles in 7 years. How many German clubs spent that and especially during that period. Not today where players are going for 100m.

[tweet]
danfo driver wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:57 pm I am not sure how to help you. You seem unwilling to be factual and want to be emotional in your analysis. Has Klopp ever won anything in his first season??? I mean, even League Cup? Any small cup at all. Doesnt have to be the title. Has he ever won anything at all in his first season anywhere in his life? It could be division 2! Please respond. Thank you.
He hasn't. Your point?[/quote][/tweet]

Thank you. My point is that Klopp cannot, Fact! He cannot win in his first year. He doesnt have it in him. He needs many years first before he can win. Coaches like Pep, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Zidane can do it and have done it consistently.
Not emotional my friend, just passing on some life lessons and experience. Not everyone wants to inherit success - but you already know this - it's why you called Pep the inheritance merchant. Btw Oliver Glasner's first job was at Salzburg - he hasn't had a harder path than Klopp. And he won his first trophy after eight years of management.
No, he was an assistant at Salzburg.

Why is Klopp held in the highest regard at Mainz? - never mind BVB and Liverpool. Because despite having the smallest budget he got them promoted to the Bundesliga and qualified for the UEFA Cup. Yes, they were relegated, they're a small team.
He played 325 games for them. Thats natural that he will be regarded highly.


As a coach, this is his appalling record at Mainz:

Mainz
- First full season - not promoted
- second season - not promoted
- 3rd season - promoted, but didnt win the title
- 4th season - 11th
- 5th season - 11th
- 6th season - relegated
- 7th season - not promoted

His record was - record of 109 wins, 78 draws and 83 losses. A win % of 40%.

He failed to get them back to Bundesliga, after he relegated them. Consequently, at the end of that season, he left Mainz. The following season, the so called "small team" finished second and were promoted (something he couldn't do the year before. Since their promotion in 2009-10, they have remained in the Bundesliga and have not been relegated ever since. This is 13 seasons!!!

Interestingly, when he coached them in the Bundesliga, he couldn't finish above 11th. Since then, the "Small team" has finished in positions like 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th! 8th being their present position.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by theDunamis »

txj wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:00 pm Danf Driver NOW:
danfo driver wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:35 amyou spoke a lot about many things, but never discussed the actual issues I raised. Here is the crux of the matter and I dare you to debate any of these --

1. Pep is significantly more successful than Klopp, FACT!

2. Pep has 6 titles in 10 years, Klopp has 2. FACT!

3. Pep has 33 trophies, Klopp has 10, FACT!

4. Pep is younger than Klopp and has succeeded in life more than an older klopp! Fact!!

5. Pep is a better and more accomplished coach then Klopp! Fact!

6. Klopp is not in the same level as Pep in the ranking for best coach of all time! Fact!!

The facts are clear. Klopp is not on the same level as Pep. for that to happen, Pep probably has to retire today and Klopp will still need another 20 years to win 33 trophies and 6 titles.


Danfo Driver THEN:
danfo driver wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:22 pm GUARDIOLA: THE CHECKBOOK MANAGER!

A few injuries and NO TRANSFER WINDOW TO GO OUT AND SPLASH 300 MILLION and he cannot handle it! :oops: :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol: Tufiakwa!


If he was a real coach, he would be able to go to the youth team and use a CB there. But no, he cant! he cant because all his career it is clear that it is money that has won every title he has ever won! PEP BEING EXPOSED FOR THE FRAUD THAT HE IS! :clap:

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

I believe medical science has a name for this -- schizophrenia.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by danfo driver »

The YeyeMan wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:51 pm
How many trophies should he have won in that period?
You claimed he doesnt need to spend to win. I informed you that he spent more than 184 million in order to win ONLY 2 titles. How many other German clubs spent that to compete with him?


And that's how one paints a different picture with facts.
How else would you paint the fact? I literally gave you his appalling record.
Yes, he laid the foundations. I agree. Hence the respect and status he's given by Mainz.
Not true. He failed and had to leave because he was struggling. Tuchel came in a did wonders IMMEDIATELY! If he had remained, they wouldnt have been promoted.

His status at Mainz is based on his playing career.
Interestingly, by your own logic those finishes should be considered failures because they didn't end with trophies. So you're contradicting yourself again.
No, like I said, you dont understand what contradiction means. Neither do you seem to understand what logic means. Mainz, "the small club," has remained in the league for 13 good years! Klopp's failure at Mainz is not about his lack of trophies there. His failure is his inability to promote them from division 2 on multiple occassions, inability to keep them in the league and relegate them. That was the failure.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by kbt »

Good luck Redmen! Coutinhooooo will do it for us.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

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kbt wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 3:26 pm Good luck Redmen! Coutinhooooo will do it for us.
Pipo will definitely have a crack or two from range. Aggressive midfield from Villa. Very interesting lineup, looking to exploit the absence of anchors in Mesopotamian blue.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by Coach »

Villa leading at the Etihad.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by balo »

Coach wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:43 pm Villa leading at the Etihad.
Liverpool only needs 6 unanswered goals.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by theDunamis »

balo wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Coach wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:43 pm Villa leading at the Etihad.
Liverpool only needs 6 unanswered goals.

What are you talking about? IF Man City lose or draw, Liverpool only need a win of any margin.
theDunamis is signed, sealed, DELIVERED!
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Scipio Africanus
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by Scipio Africanus »

What drama in the AVL-MC game! :clap: :clap: :thumbs: :thumbs:

How did Aston Villa miss that??!!?

That would have been 2-0!!!

Wha choo looking at?!
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by balo »

theDunamis wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:11 pm
balo wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:55 pm
Coach wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:43 pm Villa leading at the Etihad.
Liverpool only needs 6 unanswered goals.

What are you talking about? IF Man City lose or draw, Liverpool only need a win of any margin.

You are Right. Was only thinking about the goal difference.
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by Coach »

Pipo Coutinho!
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Re: Liverpool - Football Thread

Post by balo »

What a final day..

AV scores. Coutinho.

Liverpool needs to score.
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