France 1 Italy 3

[EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

[EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA]

1-1 see goalasoo

[EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA]

3-1 nice assist by Udogie.

[Bigpokey24]

Tonali was the missing piece

[ohsee]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

[txj]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

[ohsee]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

[The YeyeMan]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

[theDunamis]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

[txj]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

I have nothing more to add...

The problem we have here are these fundamentalist ayatollahs who see the world in black and white only...

[ohsee]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

Chief, I beg to disagree. She did not grow up in Igbo culture; she had some (minor) exposure to it growing up. She was immersed in English culture and traditions all her life (until she immigrated to Canada).

I know a couple of white Canadians who grew up in Nigeria, one in Lagos, the other was born in the city that gave him his middle name, Ibadan. They left Nigeria in their tweens, speak English like Canadians, and think and behave like Canadians--they don't consider themselves Nigerian at all (I don't either) and they are in a better position to do that than this woman. As children in Nigeria, they lived in exclusive areas, attended elite schools full of Oyibo like them, hung around and played with Oyibo children, and had some exposure to Nigerian culture through their servants (I think Ibadan could remember a smattering of Yoruba). As far as I know, they did not follow egungun or mmowu, kill goat for Christmas, chop ngwo-ngwo isi ewu, or support one "tribe" or another for the presidency. Are they Nigerian in your view? Don't forget that I added "and the environment they are most familiar with," not just where they grew up.

If you are looking for someone who is both Nigerian and English, I would suggest the late Dilibe Onyeama who lived half of the time in Nigeria and half in England. He grew up and went to school in England, and came to Nigeria for the holidays. And as an adult shuttled back and forth. If you read his books, you will recognize that he had a deep familiarity with both English culture and Igbo culture. Now, that, I would agree, is someone who is both. Are these Italian football players like Dilibe? Somehow I doubt it. Chief, perhaps you are like Dilibe, I don't know. But I know this woman is not.

ohsee is obviously (mostly) Nigerian even though he has spent most of his life in Canada (OK., and Canadian too) You no see how him dey box sinequanoise for mout every day? Is sinequanon Nigerian? You be the judge.

[ohsee]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

See this man. I am talking social and cultural reality, you are talking modern politically correct pieties. I actually accept what you are saying as valuable in the modern world, especially in sports, entertainment etc, but this is not my point. You can declare yourself to be Igbo, but it does not mean you are. I can declare myself to be Yoruba--with some trivial justification--but it does not mean I am.

[ohsee]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

I have nothing more to add...

The problem we have here are these fundamentalist ayatollahs who see the world in black and white only...

GTFOH, empty head. Go and "talk tactics". Perhaps you are good at that.

[theDunamis]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

See this man. I am talking social and cultural reality, you are talking modern politically correct pieties. I actually accept what you are saying as valuable in the modern world, especially in sports, entertainment etc, but this is not my point. You can declare yourself to be Igbo, but it does not mean you are. I can declare myself to be Yoruba--with some trivial justification--but it does not mean I am.

My point (and inherently my belief) stands separate from yours and they are not necessarily contradictory unless you want them to be. I removed your post from my response with intentionality for that reason.

Each identity / national group that an individual can or wants to make a claim / stake to may choose to have requirements that must be met before they can accept that individual as a member of their group. That is completely within their rights to do. However, what is not within their rights to do is to stop or prevent that individual from making a claim or even further from reveling in that identity to his or her heart's content. If you declare yourself to be Yoruba and you revel in the culture (wearing Yoruba attires, singing Yoruba songs, christening yourself with a Yoruba name, etc.), no one can stop you from doing these. What they can do, however, is to say that they do not consider or accept you as Yoruba because their requirement for belonging is strictly by blood (for example) and you do not meet it. On the other hand, they may follow the Biblical path and say instead, "He is a Yoruba who is one inwardly; and Yorubaness is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter".

Those 2 parties -- the claimant and the identity group -- are direct stakeholders and have a right to do on each of their parts what I have described above. The folks that are often most vocal though and definitely most ridiculous, are the folks that are neither the claimant nor do they belong to the identity group the claimant is making a claim to but insist they can dictate to the claimant who he or she is and what he or she can or cannot do with and within the claimed identity group. And we see a lot of those folks in here who decide that a kid who has both a Nigerian and some other heritage(s) cannot or should not claim the other heritage because <insert nonsensical reason here>.

[txj]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

See this man. I am talking social and cultural reality, you are talking modern politically correct pieties. I actually accept what you are saying as valuable in the modern world, especially in sports, entertainment etc, but this is not my point. You can declare yourself to be Igbo, but it does not mean you are. I can declare myself to be Yoruba--with some trivial justification--but it does not mean I am.

My point (and inherently my belief) stands separate from yours and they are not necessarily contradictory unless you want them to be. I removed your post from my response with intentionality for that reason.

Each identity / national group that an individual can or wants to make a claim / stake to may choose to have requirements that must be met before they can accept that individual as a member of their group. That is completely within their rights to do. However, what is not within their rights to do is to stop or prevent that individual from making a claim or even further from reveling in that identity to his or her heart's content. If you declare yourself to be Yoruba and you revel in the culture (wearing Yoruba attires, singing Yoruba songs, christening yourself with a Yoruba name, etc.), no one can stop you from doing these. What they can do, however, is to say that they do not consider or accept you as Yoruba because their requirement for belonging is strictly by blood (for example) and you do not meet it. On the other hand, they may follow the Biblical path and say instead, "He is a Yoruba who is one inwardly; and Yorubaness is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter".

Those 2 parties -- the claimant and the identity group -- are direct stakeholders and have a right to do on each of their parts what I have described above. The folks that are often most vocal though and definitely most ridiculous, are the folks that are neither the claimant nor do they belong to the identity group the claimant is making a claim to but insist they can dictate to the claimant who he or she is and what he or she can or cannot do with and within the claimed identity group. And we see a lot of those folks in here who decide that a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage cannot or should not claim the other heritage because <insert nonsensical reason here>.

A long winded way of describing ayatollah

[ohsee]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

See this man. I am talking social and cultural reality, you are talking modern politically correct pieties. I actually accept what you are saying as valuable in the modern world, especially in sports, entertainment etc, but this is not my point. You can declare yourself to be Igbo, but it does not mean you are. I can declare myself to be Yoruba--with some trivial justification--but it does not mean I am.

My point (and inherently my belief) stands separate from yours and they are not necessarily contradictory unless you want them to be. I removed your post from my response with intentionality for that reason.

Each identity / national group that an individual can or wants to make a claim / stake to may choose to have requirements that must be met before they can accept that individual as a member of their group. That is completely within their rights to do. However, what is not within their rights to do is to stop or prevent that individual from making a claim or even further from reveling in that identity to his or her heart's content. If you declare yourself to be Yoruba and you revel in the culture (wearing Yoruba attires, singing Yoruba songs, christening yourself with a Yoruba name, etc.), no one can stop you from doing these. What they can do, however, is to say that they do not consider or accept you as Yoruba because their requirement for belonging is strictly by blood (for example) and you do not meet it. On the other hand, they may follow the Biblical path and say instead, "He is a Yoruba who is one inwardly; and Yorubaness is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter".

Those 2 parties -- the claimant and the identity group -- are direct stakeholders and have a right to do on each of their parts what I have described above. The folks that are often most vocal though and definitely most ridiculous, are the folks that are neither the claimant nor do they belong to the identity group the claimant is making a claim to but insist they can dictate to the claimant who he or she is and what he or she can or cannot do with and within the claimed identity group. And we see a lot of those folks in here who decide that a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage cannot or should not claim the other heritage because <insert nonsensical reason here>.

Chief, I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of it, but cannot agree with all. I do not want to get into a long and complicated philosophical and sociological argument, so let us agree on what we agree on, and agree to disagree on what we don't agree on. I see that some of your views reflect the spirit of the age, and as an irascible okongwu (old man), I find it increasingly difficult to accept many things. However, I value your cyber friendship, so I will not press on, and will leave it at that.

[theDunamis]

Chief, I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of it, but cannot agree with all. I do not want to get into a long and complicated philosophical and sociological argument, so let us agree on what we agree on, and agree to disagree on what we don't agree on. I see that some of your views reflect the spirit of the age, and as an irascible okongwu (old man), I find it increasingly difficult to accept many things. However, I value your cyber friendship, so I will not press on, and will leave it at that.

Our cyber friendship has never been threatened by disagreements -- of which we've had a handful of and a couple of which were relatively intense. So, feel free to disagree. It most likely won't change my beliefs and my approach to this life topic but likely adds a perspective I can say I have considered.

[ohsee]

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

I agree. And I believe individuals with dual or multiple ethnic / national heritages should revel in each one as they so desire; and also have the choice to determine which they want to identify as and which they want to identify with for whatever purpose (sports, entertainment, business) that allows them the choice. Period!

See this man. I am talking social and cultural reality, you are talking modern politically correct pieties. I actually accept what you are saying as valuable in the modern world, especially in sports, entertainment etc, but this is not my point. You can declare yourself to be Igbo, but it does not mean you are. I can declare myself to be Yoruba--with some trivial justification--but it does not mean I am.

My point (and inherently my belief) stands separate from yours and they are not necessarily contradictory unless you want them to be. I removed your post from my response with intentionality for that reason.

Each identity / national group that an individual can or wants to make a claim / stake to may choose to have requirements that must be met before they can accept that individual as a member of their group. That is completely within their rights to do. However, what is not within their rights to do is to stop or prevent that individual from making a claim or even further from reveling in that identity to his or her heart's content. If you declare yourself to be Yoruba and you revel in the culture (wearing Yoruba attires, singing Yoruba songs, christening yourself with a Yoruba name, etc.), no one can stop you from doing these. What they can do, however, is to say that they do not consider or accept you as Yoruba because their requirement for belonging is strictly by blood (for example) and you do not meet it. On the other hand, they may follow the Biblical path and say instead, "He is a Yoruba who is one inwardly; and Yorubaness is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter".

Those 2 parties -- the claimant and the identity group -- are direct stakeholders and have a right to do on each of their parts what I have described above. The folks that are often most vocal though and definitely most ridiculous, are the folks that are neither the claimant nor do they belong to the identity group the claimant is making a claim to but insist they can dictate to the claimant who he or she is and what he or she can or cannot do with and within the claimed identity group. And we see a lot of those folks in here who decide that a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage cannot or should not claim the other heritage because <insert nonsensical reason here>.

A long winded way of describing ayatollah

What an empty head. Pentagon Parrot, if you are referring to me as the "ayatollah" allegedly described above, it is more proof of your poor comprehension skills. You clearly have no clue what is being debated here. No surprise there--a man who proudly announced to an African forum that he is an agent of the Pentagon has to be sorely deficient in the IQ department.

[ohsee]

Chief, I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of it, but cannot agree with all. I do not want to get into a long and complicated philosophical and sociological argument, so let us agree on what we agree on, and agree to disagree on what we don't agree on. I see that some of your views reflect the spirit of the age, and as an irascible okongwu (old man), I find it increasingly difficult to accept many things. However, I value your cyber friendship, so I will not press on, and will leave it at that.

Our cyber friendship has never been threatened by disagreements -- of which we've had a handful of and a couple of which were relatively intense. So, feel free to disagree. It most likely won't change my beliefs and my approach to this life topic but likely adds a perspective I can say I have considered.

Chief, you are right that we are talking about different things. As I said, I do agree with you that "a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage [should be able to] claim the other heritage". That is part of my point about the black Italian footballers. I go further and say that they are that heritage.

I however take issue with your claim that as individuals, we all have a "right" to self-identify as whatever or whomever we want. First, humans do not exist in splendidly free individual isolation with "rights" to do as they please; we are all parts of social groups, constrained by various real markers that specifically identify such groups. The free individual is a myth of modern Western ideology. We thus cannot wake up one morning and suddenly declare ourselves a member of a group without that group acknowledging our existence or our having been embedded in that group for an extended period such that we are almost indistinguishable from other members. The name for such a free claim is "madness."

My reference to the spirit of the age is to a time when men can wake up one morning and declare themselves to be women, and some people think such a declaration is OK and laudable. If this can happen, why can't ohsee one day declare himself to be Hausa? Or better still, Fulani from Gambia? If all identity takes is declaration, then, hey, let me declare myself to be sinequanon the Englishman . To cut long magana (see? I have become Hausa ) short, there is a vast gulf between declaring an identity and being that identity.

[txj]

Chief, I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of it, but cannot agree with all. I do not want to get into a long and complicated philosophical and sociological argument, so let us agree on what we agree on, and agree to disagree on what we don't agree on. I see that some of your views reflect the spirit of the age, and as an irascible okongwu (old man), I find it increasingly difficult to accept many things. However, I value your cyber friendship, so I will not press on, and will leave it at that.

Our cyber friendship has never been threatened by disagreements -- of which we've had a handful of and a couple of which were relatively intense. So, feel free to disagree. It most likely won't change my beliefs and my approach to this life topic but likely adds a perspective I can say I have considered.

Chief, you are right that we are talking about different things. As I said, I do agree with you that "a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage [should be able to] claim the other heritage". That is part of my point about the black Italian footballers. I go further and say that they are that heritage.

I however take issue with your claim that as individuals, we all have a "right" to self-identify as whatever or whomever we want. First, humans do not exist in splendidly free individual isolation with "rights" to do as they please; we are all parts of social groups, constrained by various real markers that specifically identify such groups. The free individual is a myth of modern Western ideology. We thus cannot wake up one morning and suddenly declare ourselves a member of a group without that group acknowledging our existence or our having been embedded in that group for an extended period such that we are almost indistinguishable from other members. The name for such a free claim is "madness."

My reference to the spirit of the age is to a time when men can wake up one morning and declare themselves to be women, and some people think such a declaration is OK and laudable. If this can happen, why can't ohsee one day declare himself to be Hausa? Or better still, Fulani from Gambia? If all identity takes is declaration, then, hey, let me declare myself to be sinequanon the Englishman . To cut long magana (see? I have become Hausa ) short, there is a vast gulf between declaring an identity and being that identity.

Classic straw man argument to set up the scenario that does not conform with reality and then argue against it...

The point is that nobody simply declares themselves to be of another heritage. Self identification being in effect a process rather a simple declaration. This is not a gender issue and not subject to reflex ayatollah dictates.

This is the kind of thinking that has stopped Nigeria from evolving and further developing her nationhood.

[The YeyeMan]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

Chief, I beg to disagree. She did not grow up in Igbo culture; she had some (minor) exposure to it growing up. She was immersed in English culture and traditions all her life (until she immigrated to Canada).

I know a couple of white Canadians who grew up in Nigeria, one in Lagos, the other was born in the city that gave him his middle name, Ibadan. They left Nigeria in their tweens, speak English like Canadians, and think and behave like Canadians--they don't consider themselves Nigerian at all (I don't either) and they are in a better position to do that than this woman. As children in Nigeria, they lived in exclusive areas, attended elite schools full of Oyibo like them, hung around and played with Oyibo children, and had some exposure to Nigerian culture through their servants (I think Ibadan could remember a smattering of Yoruba). As far as I know, they did not follow egungun or mmowu, kill goat for Christmas, chop ngwo-ngwo isi ewu, or support one "tribe" or another for the presidency. Are they Nigerian in your view? Don't forget that I added "and the environment they are most familiar with," not just where they grew up.

Chief, yes, they are Nigerian. Well, let me say, they can identify as Nigerian. And if they did, would you argue with them? They enjoyed a level of privilege the average Nigerian will never experience but they can claim to identify as Nigerian - even if they choose not to. They may not haven't killed a goat for Christmas or chopped ngwo-ngwo isi ewu but like I said there's no singular set of norms, customs and values in which they must adhere to be considered Nigerian. One can say they have a closer affinity to Canada - and perhaps these Italian footballers - have a closer affinity to the countries of their birth but they can absolutely be Nigerian.

[theDunamis]

Chief, you are right that we are talking about different things. As I said, I do agree with you that "a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage [should be able to] claim the other heritage". That is part of my point about the black Italian footballers. I go further and say that they are that heritage.

I however take issue with your claim that as individuals, we all have a "right" to self-identify as whatever or whomever we want. First, humans do not exist in splendidly free individual isolation with "rights" to do as they please; we are all parts of social groups, constrained by various real markers that specifically identify such groups. The free individual is a myth of modern Western ideology. We thus cannot wake up one morning and suddenly declare ourselves a member of a group without that group acknowledging our existence or our having been embedded in that group for an extended period such that we are almost indistinguishable from other members. The name for such a free claim is "madness."

My reference to the spirit of the age is to a time when men can wake up one morning and declare themselves to be women, and some people think such a declaration is OK and laudable. If this can happen, why can't ohsee one day declare himself to be Hausa? Or better still, Fulani from Gambia? If all identity takes is declaration, then, hey, let me declare myself to be sinequanon the Englishman . To cut long magana (see? I have become Hausa ) short, there is a vast gulf between declaring an identity and being that identity.

txj already captured the essence of my response to the scenarios you painted.

No one typically just wakes up one sunny day and declares him or herself a member of an identity group they do not inherently belong to. Anyone who does that is very likely on the wrong end of the lunacy spectrum. Instead, what we see is that folks become aware of a specific identity group, become fascinated and enticed by it, and begin investing time and effort to identify with that group. And while I definitely do NOT want to make this discussion about transgenders, even they go through a similar trajectory rather than just waking up and declaring themselves members of the opposite gender and in contradiction to their birth identity.

So, going quickly back to the specific topic of THIS discussion, no one wakes up and suddenly declares him or herself Nigerian, or Igbo, or Chinese, or for that matter, Black. We agree that such a one that does this is likely dealing with other bigger issues. However, and as you captured, someone who has been immersed (physically or digitally) and with clear intentionality into a group she wishes to be identified with, can make a reasonable claim to be a member of that group. The members of that group may still not accept her but that she can reasonably make that claim is the point I was making when I stepped into the discussion.

[ohsee]

Chief, I understand what you are saying, and agree with much of it, but cannot agree with all. I do not want to get into a long and complicated philosophical and sociological argument, so let us agree on what we agree on, and agree to disagree on what we don't agree on. I see that some of your views reflect the spirit of the age, and as an irascible okongwu (old man), I find it increasingly difficult to accept many things. However, I value your cyber friendship, so I will not press on, and will leave it at that.

Our cyber friendship has never been threatened by disagreements -- of which we've had a handful of and a couple of which were relatively intense. So, feel free to disagree. It most likely won't change my beliefs and my approach to this life topic but likely adds a perspective I can say I have considered.

Chief, you are right that we are talking about different things. As I said, I do agree with you that "a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage [should be able to] claim the other heritage". That is part of my point about the black Italian footballers. I go further and say that they are that heritage.

I however take issue with your claim that as individuals, we all have a "right" to self-identify as whatever or whomever we want. First, humans do not exist in splendidly free individual isolation with "rights" to do as they please; we are all parts of social groups, constrained by various real markers that specifically identify such groups. The free individual is a myth of modern Western ideology. We thus cannot wake up one morning and suddenly declare ourselves a member of a group without that group acknowledging our existence or our having been embedded in that group for an extended period such that we are almost indistinguishable from other members. The name for such a free claim is "madness."

My reference to the spirit of the age is to a time when men can wake up one morning and declare themselves to be women, and some people think such a declaration is OK and laudable. If this can happen, why can't ohsee one day declare himself to be Hausa? Or better still, Fulani from Gambia? If all identity takes is declaration, then, hey, let me declare myself to be sinequanon the Englishman . To cut long magana (see? I have become Hausa ) short, there is a vast gulf between declaring an identity and being that identity.

Classic straw man argument to set up the scenario that does not conform with reality and then argue against it...

The point is that nobody simply declares themselves to be of another heritage. Self identification being in effect a process rather a simple declaration. This is not a gender issue and not subject to reflex ayatollah dictates.

This is the kind of thinking that has stopped Nigeria from evolving and further developing her nationhood.

Low IQ Pentagon Parrot, why are you still here? This is the kind of thinking that has stopped Nigeria from evolving and further evolving her nationhood? Gerrarahia mumu Foolish man contradicting himself without knowing it.