OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

[Tobi17]

Pelé - 3 WC titles, 7 Ballon D'Or
Maradona - 1 WC title, 2 Ballon D'Or
Messi - 1 WC title, 7 Ballon D'Or

Any questions?

Pele won those WC titles in an era when football hasn't evolved into the more scientific and technical modern game it is today, not taking anything away from Pele of course cause he's my first on the GOAT list.

[mate]

Ok, my friend who was Pele's teammate said the following, translated from Croatian, comparing Pele to Messi:

Pele was a more complete player than Messi. Pele had a better head, left and right foot, and built the ball better...for me, the best of all .

The term built is literal and doesn't translate as well into English. What it contextually really means is: Pele worked the ball better than Messi. He left a heart in his text to me, as he loved Pele.

A FIFA sports photographer I know also covered Pele back in the day. Of course he too says Pele was the more complete player.

Finally, most folks I surveyed say not to fall into the trap of comparing across many generation. But rather to indeed consider the GOAT of a generation and how they dominated.

Solved, right?

[Bigpokey24]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmU9YosA ... k5N2NlZjQ=

Smh. Fifa is so corrupt

[mate]

A sport journalist I know also answered me on the GOAT. He emphasized Pele might be eclipsed in terms of some trophies and awards...but that cross generational comparisons are futile. There are too many variables and what-ifs.

He too knew Pele on a personal and social level. He has covered and met even the modern greats like Messi and Modric.

But he did say: Pele for him will be #1 for many reasons. Not least because Pele was his 1st football idol. Mine really was Maradona.

[mate]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmU9YosA ... k5N2NlZjQ=

Smh. Fifa is so corrupt

[F360]

Ok, my friend who was Pele's teammate said the following, translated from Croatian, comparing Pele to Messi:

Pele was a more complete player than Messi. Pele had a better head, left and right foot, and built the ball better...for me, the best of all .

The term built is literal and doesn't translate as well into English. What it contextually really means is: Pele worked the ball better than Messi. He left a heart in his text to me, as he loved Pele.

A FIFA sports photographer I know also covered Pele back in the day. Of course he too says Pele was the more complete player.

Finally, most folks I surveyed say not to fall into the trap of comparing across many generation. But rather to indeed consider the GOAT of a generation and how they dominated.

Solved, right?

Brilliant! That's exactly how i feel and what I try to tell people trying to label someone the GOAT. That might work in the NFL with Tom Brady but for futbol it's probably best to go with GOAT of your lifetime or generation.

[Aswani]

What I will give to see Maradona play in this era of "touch me slightly and I fall over and get a free kick".
What I will give to see Messi play in the era of "you get a free kick only when the ref see's blood or broken limbs".
Maradona is the GOAT, for me anyway.

[Kabalega]

For all the haters

Na here you dey? Typical east african, always sitting on the lap of the white man, hoping that the white man will jog his lap to bounce you. I travel to Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania a lot and I am always embarrassed for you people when i go there. Still driving those Willy MBs Colonial Era jeeps and wearing those khaki outfits and round hats. Shame no dey catch una! In 2022!! My last trip to Nairobi in June, i literally saw a guy standing at the door at a restaurant dressed like a 1930s colonized African, smiling, wide teeth, excited to welcome a white English family. "Welcome Sir, Welcome Sir, so happy to have you join us." I just shook my head, dude looked at me and realized how shameless he looked.

Massa Massa, I love you If only you know how much Messi and other Argentines hate the sight of you. Go and ask Camavinga what Aguero and others said about him today on tiktok in their dressing room.

Yet here you are supporting the French who are literally enslaving your fellow black Africans with the CFA and killing their visionary leaders.

[Kabalega]

Ok, my friend who was Pele's teammate said the following, translated from Croatian, comparing Pele to Messi:

Pele was a more complete player than Messi. Pele had a better head, left and right foot, and built the ball better...for me, the best of all .

The term built is literal and doesn't translate as well into English. What it contextually really means is: Pele worked the ball better than Messi. He left a heart in his text to me, as he loved Pele.

A FIFA sports photographer I know also covered Pele back in the day. Of course he too says Pele was the more complete player.

Finally, most folks I surveyed say not to fall into the trap of comparing across many generation. But rather to indeed consider the GOAT of a generation and how they dominated.

Solved, right?

Brilliant! That's exactly how i feel and what I try to tell people trying to label someone the GOAT. That might work in the NFL with Tom Brady but for futbol it's probably best to go with GOAT of your lifetime or generation.

It doesn’t work there either. Tom Brady is in a member of the over protected QB generation.

[airwolex]

I get where Mate is coming from when he says the footballers now are better but just watch Pele highlights. He is arguably quicker and more athletic than Messi and Maradona. He has a spring that can rival an elite Nba player and he used to execute bicycle kicks for fun, something I have never seen Messi so.

As for pure skills, there is nothing he could not do, as a matter of fact there are somethings he did routinely that the best now just do not do. Oh...he was two footed as well.

For me it is Pele before Messi, then Brazilian Ronaldo and Maradona.

[danfo driver]

For all the haters

Na here you dey? Typical east african, always sitting on the lap of the white man, hoping that the white man will jog his lap to bounce you. I travel to Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania a lot and I am always embarrassed for you people when i go there. Still driving those Willy MBs Colonial Era jeeps and wearing those khaki outfits and round hats. Shame no dey catch una! In 2022!! My last trip to Nairobi in June, i literally saw a guy standing at the door at a restaurant dressed like a 1930s colonized African, smiling, wide teeth, excited to welcome a white English family. "Welcome Sir, Welcome Sir, so happy to have you join us." I just shook my head, dude looked at me and realized how shameless he looked.

Massa Massa, I love you If only you know how much Messi and other Argentines hate the sight of you. Go and ask Camavinga what Aguero and others said about him today on tiktok in their dressing room.

Yet here you are supporting the French who are literally enslaving your fellow black Africans with the CFA and killing their visionary leaders.

Supporting the French? The CFA? Please drink some water and get out there and plough the fooking field like the n1gg3r that you are! When you are done, take a dang shower and put on your kakhi and do what you do best -- "Good morning Sir, welcome! Thank you so much for coming to my land"

[ohsee]

By winning one WC on PKs against a fourth string France side? Abeg comot for road.

You’re too smart to narrow it to this. Messi scored twice in what might be the greatest final ever at age 35. On top of the most illustrious club accomplishments, where he played a monster role.

France is the professional side: deep, organized, tactical, fit, with lots of verg good players. Including an extremely lethal Mbappe. Messi willed his Argentina in this one…as he often did for Barcelona, with much better players of course.

I’ve never seen football like Barcelona at its height. Again, generational players. But Messi stood out even among them.

He’s a legitimate GOAT with Pele and Maradona.

The so-called GOAT that needed 2 finals to win a WC final.

The prodigy that could not drag his country by his sheer will and talent and needed to be in his football wheelchair to finally beg, borrow and steal country glory.

He is in the GOAT conversation BUT he is NOT the GOAT. GOATs do GOAT things from their early years and don't need multiple tries to close the deal.

Pele >> Maradona >> Messi

In the day of Pele, players ran 3km-5km per game. Today they hit up to 16km with OT.

Today every player can play the whole field. Pele played against slow, committed defenders in static schemes, albeit they were brutal...but Pele on athleticism was head and shoulders above some pretty weak athletes in many games.

We can romanticize the past, but a deeper and objective look is required. Don't get me wrong, I probably still tip Pele. But this is something needing continued thinking, as Messi just won the WC.

3 WCs? Please. What team can do that anymore? You just saw France do 2 in a row, with a more balanced and complete team with a lethal scorer in Mbappe...yet they couldn't do it, losing to a GOAT.

It's a fun debate. I'm putting my biases aside. Believe me, I wanted France to win...as I considered Argentina dirty and cheating in so many moments in football, including this WC against Holland.

But Messi is a legitimate candidate among the big 3 for GOAT. I will say this: head to head if you magically teleported all 3 of them together...Pele and Maradona would be asking Messi how to train to be so fit, fast, and consistent with top skills for 90 minutes each game.

Come on. The game has changed. Markedly. Factor that.

mate, the discussion is GREATEST player of all time, not BEST player. The latter cannot be determined because, yes, they played in different eras where several elements of the game are not the same. We cannot have them all together playing in their prime. You need to have read my defunct SoccerGOAT blog to see my arguments about this. I will go to my hard drive to find my original posts, and post here.

Greatness is determined by extraordinary achievements given the constraints a player had to overcome in his particular era. It is futile to argue that it was easier in Pele's time--you would then need to explain why nobody was doing Pele things in his era, and in previous eras when according to your argument it would have been even easier. What Pele accomplished in his prime is unbelievably extraordinary in any era, any sport and any league. Do your homework.

Your argument is far from objective. You are loading the dice in favour of recency. Transposing your argument to the literary world, David Mamet is greater than William Shakespeare because Mamet operates in a far more sophisticated, competitive and difficult-to-achieve-fame era where greater knowledge is available. David who, you ask. Exactly. Bad argument.

[mate]

By winning one WC on PKs against a fourth string France side? Abeg comot for road.

You’re too smart to narrow it to this. Messi scored twice in what might be the greatest final ever at age 35. On top of the most illustrious club accomplishments, where he played a monster role.

France is the professional side: deep, organized, tactical, fit, with lots of verg good players. Including an extremely lethal Mbappe. Messi willed his Argentina in this one…as he often did for Barcelona, with much better players of course.

I’ve never seen football like Barcelona at its height. Again, generational players. But Messi stood out even among them.

He’s a legitimate GOAT with Pele and Maradona.

The so-called GOAT that needed 2 finals to win a WC final.

The prodigy that could not drag his country by his sheer will and talent and needed to be in his football wheelchair to finally beg, borrow and steal country glory.

He is in the GOAT conversation BUT he is NOT the GOAT. GOATs do GOAT things from their early years and don't need multiple tries to close the deal.

Pele >> Maradona >> Messi

In the day of Pele, players ran 3km-5km per game. Today they hit up to 16km with OT.

Today every player can play the whole field. Pele played against slow, committed defenders in static schemes, albeit they were brutal...but Pele on athleticism was head and shoulders above some pretty weak athletes in many games.

We can romanticize the past, but a deeper and objective look is required. Don't get me wrong, I probably still tip Pele. But this is something needing continued thinking, as Messi just won the WC.

3 WCs? Please. What team can do that anymore? You just saw France do 2 in a row, with a more balanced and complete team with a lethal scorer in Mbappe...yet they couldn't do it, losing to a GOAT.

It's a fun debate. I'm putting my biases aside. Believe me, I wanted France to win...as I considered Argentina dirty and cheating in so many moments in football, including this WC against Holland.

But Messi is a legitimate candidate among the big 3 for GOAT. I will say this: head to head if you magically teleported all 3 of them together...Pele and Maradona would be asking Messi how to train to be so fit, fast, and consistent with top skills for 90 minutes each game.

Come on. The game has changed. Markedly. Factor that.

mate, the discussion is GREATEST player of all time, not BEST player. The latter cannot be determined because, yes, they played in different eras where several elements of the game are not the same. We cannot have them all together playing in their prime. You need to have read my defunct SoccerGOAT blog to see my arguments about this. I will go to my hard drive to find my original posts, and post here.

Greatness is determined by extraordinary achievements given the constraints a player had to overcome in his particular era. It is futile to argue that it was easier in Pele's time--you would then need to explain why nobody was doing Pele things in his era, and in previous eras when according to your argument it would have been even easier. What Pele accomplished in his prime is unbelievably extraordinary in any era, any sport and any league. Do your homework.

Your argument is far from objective. You are loading the dice in favour of recency. Transposing your argument to the literary world, David Mamet is greater than William Shakespeare because Mamet operates in a far more competitive and difficult-to-achieve-fame era where greater knowledge is available. David who, you ask. Exactly. Bad argument.

I get the point about GREATEST vs BEST. Again, it's nuanced and contextual. Believe me, I've done my homework and then some.

You saw my post that I played with guys who played with Pele. Yujam can confirm if you don't believe me. Plus you once met me and know I'm not some pot bellied wanna be!

Jokes aide, the players I knew played with Pele for 4 years, which is a lot. Granted, for the Cosmos. Again, they RAVE about him, saying he's simply the BEST & GREATEST...mostly on the completeness factor.

And you know what? My friend says Pele had better ball control and orchestration than Messi. That is a hard one for me to believe based on pics. But you know why he says that? Because: imagine Pele had Xavi and Iniesta to pass with.

As I told you consistently, I have Pele ahead on charisma. It's not the end, as we need to digest this Messi win. I still think you have to do some cross correlation...to a reasonable degree. Not easy. Anyways, I put a lot of stock into folks who I know who played with Pele...just wish I could talk to more such folks. I know 2 Croatian-Americans who I am still friends with here.

Finally...just 1 fact...Pele was not a big part of 1962. Not that it matters. Just saying.

[mate]

I get where Mate is coming from when he says the footballers now are better but just watch Pele highlights. He is arguably quicker and more athletic than Messi and Maradona. He has a spring that can rival an elite Nba player and he used to execute bicycle kicks for fun, something I have never seen Messi so.

As for pure skills, there is nothing he could not do, as a matter of fact there are somethings he did routinely that the best now just do not do. Oh...he was two footed as well.

For me it is Pele before Messi, then Brazilian Ronaldo and Maradona.

Good points. See what I wrote to Ohsee. My friend says for him it is decisive in that context...Pele simply was the better footballer all around...faster, strong, and more cerebral. What gets me about his comment: better playmaker and orchestrator of the ball in a team context.

[ohsee]

Difficult to compare players across entirely different eras. The question needn’t be is Messi better than Pele, rather, what intracranial pathology had millions mentioning Cristiano in the same sentence? Not even close. Never has been.

Coachitoooooooo!

[ohsee]

I played with guys who played with Pele.

Finally...just 1 fact...Pele was not a big part of 1962. Not that it matters. Just saying.

mate, you be my very, very good friend, that is why I think I can advise you on this matter. We are too old now to be engaging in this "I know somebody, who knows somebody, who knows so- and-so" argument. Such arguments just produce smiles.

As for Pele not being part of 1962, if it does not matter, why do you bring it up?

[ohsee]

By winning one WC on PKs against a fourth string France side? Abeg comot for road.

You’re too smart to narrow it to this. Messi scored twice in what might be the greatest final ever at age 35. On top of the most illustrious club accomplishments, where he played a monster role.

France is the professional side: deep, organized, tactical, fit, with lots of verg good players. Including an extremely lethal Mbappe. Messi willed his Argentina in this one…as he often did for Barcelona, with much better players of course.

I’ve never seen football like Barcelona at its height. Again, generational players. But Messi stood out even among them.

He’s a legitimate GOAT with Pele and Maradona.

The so-called GOAT that needed 2 finals to win a WC final.

The prodigy that could not drag his country by his sheer will and talent and needed to be in his football wheelchair to finally beg, borrow and steal country glory.

He is in the GOAT conversation BUT he is NOT the GOAT. GOATs do GOAT things from their early years and don't need multiple tries to close the deal.

Pele >> Maradona >> Messi

Biko help me to told him.

[ohsee]

Goat way like to dey chop ojoro penalties.

Yeye he-goat

I love Nigerians. Master yabsters.

[mate]

I played with guys who played with Pele.

Finally...just 1 fact...Pele was not a big part of 1962. Not that it matters. Just saying.

mate, you be my very, very good friend, that is why I think I can advise you on this matter. We are too old now to be engaging in this "I know somebody, who knows somebody, who knows so- and-so" argument. Such arguments just produce smiles.

As for Pele not being part of 1962, if it does not matter, why do you bring it up?

Except it is true. Again, Yujam can confirm. You know me by now, meeting me in real life.

I don't BS about knowing somebody who knows somebody.

My friend is a close friend and played with Pele for 4 years on the NY Cosmos. He's an authority, albeit a man like you and me with an opinion.

Tough, I got one up on you on this one!

[ohsee]

The problem with these GOAT discussions is that the rules of football were so different in Pele and Maradona's day that it was almost a different sport. For example:

1) Messi's goal 2nd goal today (and hundreds of his other goals) would have been disallowed for offside 25 years ago (never mind the Pele/Maradona era) because any offside at any point in time, anywhere on the pitch automatically = a free kick. There was no active/inactive or 2nd phase of play etc. e.g. David Beckham scored a brilliant goal from 25 yards out in the 1999 FA Cup semi-final against Arsenal, but the goal was disallowed because a Man Utd player was laying down injured on the floor on the opposite side of the pitch near the touchline (about 20 yards away from where Beckham scored from!).

2) It was harder to score in the 1950s-1980s because GKs could pick up back passes from their defenders. Hence any time a striker closed down a defender, the defender simply passed the ball to his GK who picked up the ball and held on to it.

3) Refereeing is much stricter nowadays and tackles from behind, last man fouls, and studs up tackles = automatic red card. I remember Phil Neville saying that during his career, a two footed studs up tackle on the opposing winger early in the game was considered a fair way of introducing yourself to him! Watch the video below for the shockingly violent fouls that Pele and Maradona had to endure (some of which border on attempted murder). Some of these violent assaults did not even result in free kicks let alone red cards.





Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe et al are far more protected, get far more free kicks and penalties, and play on better pitches. Can you imagine the havoc Pele and Maradona would wreak in modern football with the stricter officiating?

Biko help me to told dem.

[cic old boy]

Many people proclaiming Pele (who Maradona said belongs in a museum) as the GOAT, including me, only saw highlights. I once watched the full 1970 WC final and it was soooo slow!

The argument of Pele winning 3 WCs comes with caveats. In 1958, he wasn't the star of the team. That was Garrincha, supported by Didi and Vava. In 1962, he got injured after 2 games and Garrincha and Amarildo, Pele's replacement, took over. In 1970, he was the king, but the team had world class talent all over.

How competitive were those WCs? They were essentially Europe/South America championships with only 16 teams. The road to the final was relatively easy.

Contrast that era with today of 24/7 football coverage. I have probably seen about 90% of all Messi's games at Barca, including watching him live at the Camp Nou, and PSG. I've seen his off days, his mistakes, etc. The scrutiny is more today.

People keep shifting the goalposts with Messi. Firstly, he had not done it without Barca. He then won Copa America. They moved to not winning the WC. He then won it, they moved to he only did it at 35 and it's only one win. This was the worst Argentina national team in my lifetime. Some people claim it was Di Maria that made them win. He missed the WC final of 2014 and they lost. He scored in this final and they were cruising 2-0 until he was withdrawn. But he was there in 2010 and 2018.

There is no player in the history of the game that scores as frequently as Messi and creates as much as he does. Is he a midfielder, is he a striker, is he winger? Which other player in history has been on top for for 17 years? The guy has made the abnormal normal. He has made the extraordinary routine.

[kalani JR]

Many people proclaiming Pele (who Maradona said belongs in a museum) as the GOAT, including me, only saw highlights. I once watched the full 1970 WC final and it was soooo slow!

The argument of Pele winning 3 WCs comes with caveats. In 1958, he wasn't the star of the team. That was Garrincha, supported by Didi and Vava. In 1962, he got injured after 2 games and Garrincha and Amarildo, Pele's replacement, took over. In 1970, he was the king, but the team had world class talent all over.

How competitive were those WCs? They were essentially Europe/South America championships with only 16 teams. The road to the final was relatively easy.

Contrast that era with today of 24/7 football coverage. I have probably seen about 90% of all Messi's games at Barca, including watching him live at the Camp Nou, and PSG. I've seen his off days, his mistakes, etc. The scrutiny is more today.

People keep shifting the goalposts with Messi. Firstly, he had not done it without Barca. He then won Copa America. They moved to not winning the WC. He then won it, they moved to he only did it at 35 and it's only one win. This was the worst Argentina national team in my lifetime. Some people claim it was Di Maria that made them win. He missed the WC final of 2014 and they lost. He scored in this final and they were cruising 2-0 until he was withdrawn. But he was there in 2010 and 2018.

There is no player in the history of the game that scores as frequently as Messi and creates as much as he does. Is he a midfielder, is he a striker, is he winger? Which other player in history has been on top for for 17 years? The guy has made the abnormal normal. He has made the extraordinary routine.

Pele in 1970 was more like Messi in 2022 or Zidane in 2006, the years he was the best were in the 1960s were he barely played in the World Cup.

[Kabalega]