OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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cic old boy
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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ohsee wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 4:45 pm
More meaningless quotes from Brian Clough of all people. :rotf: Abeg make we hear word jare. :biggrin:

I have lost count of how many full match videos of Pele I have watched. I used to have the full videos of the 1970 Brazil games :thumbs: I had access to a video archive of full Santos games as well as full Brazil WC games, some of which I downloaded. As I said, I used to write a blog on the greatest players of all time, and as anyone knows, I research to death everything I write. :thumbs:

Your constant claim that views of Pele are "rose tinted" ignores the truth that all kinds of information about Pele from video to histories to stats are available to the diligent researcher, and you too can research Pele videos on the internet. The only reason why you think a limited player like Messi is the GOAT is because, like the typical fanboy, you have not done your homework in this age of vast information. :biggrin:

Your comparing Lukaku to Pele does not merit a response. That is like comparing your parish priest to God. :rotf:

Yes, the quality of your team mates matters, but you ignore the fact that Pele started kicking butt with an unknown club called Santos at 16-17, while at the same age Messi was bench warming at junior Barca in Segunda Division B. :rotf: Pele started winning scoring championships IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL SEASON, at the age of 16-17, and went NINE STRAIGHT SEASONS AS TOP SCORER IN THE CAMPEONATO PAULISTA. :thumbs: And Messi? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Please, let us not go there :lol: . I forgive you for your nonsense talks for you know not what you say or do. :biggrin: You don't want to engage statistics because Pele's statistics are simply out of this world, and non-human.

In all the World Cups I have watched and the Copas, Messi has shown zero signs of the abilities he displayed with Barca. Why is that? Why is your GOAT unable to carry a team? Why does he need history class players to thrive? Pele never needed the kind of players Messi had at Barca to be outstanding at Santos. :thumbs: Again, do your homework my friend. We live in the information age. :biggrin:
:lol: :lol:
You are comparing watching 1970 WC videos of Brazil (6 games) with watching Messi every season since 2005??? You are comparing watching Santos in Brazil that for many years couldn't organise a national league championship and mostly played state championships??? You will soon claim Dominic "Alhaji" Nwobodo of Enugu Rangers was better than Marco Van Basten b/c of how he destroyed Abakaliki White Angels and Onitsha Red Devils in the East Central State Challenge Cup.

Messi "showed zero signs of the abilities" in WCs and Copas, which explains why he was the player of the tournament in the 2014 WC and the first player in tournament history to finish top scorer, top assists, player of the tournament and winner in the Copa in 2021.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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ohsee wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:00 pm
:rotf: :rotf:
Do your homework. :biggrin: Garrincha was ONE OF THE STARS. Pele, this 17 year old who was taken injured to the World Cup in an era in which there were no substitutions, recovered early enough to join the World Cup in the middle, and was Brazil's top scorer, and the second highest scorer at the WC with 6 goals. Now that spectacular and astonishing kid Pele, was THE STAR of the 1958 World Cup. :thumbs: Not Garrincha. :biggrin:
Go and watch the final against Sweden and not just the goals.

See the kind of football you are comparing with now. :lol: :lol:
Before the emergence of Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi, the debate about the greatest footballer of all time had largely centred around another feted duo — Diego Maradona and Pele.

But many in Brazil and outside have long wondered whether Pele was even the best player that country has produced or whether the true owner of that title was Manuel Francisco dos Santos, better known by his nickname of Garrincha.
:taunt: :taunt: :taunt:
There was a Garrincha documentary in which several Brazilians made the claim that he was better than Pele. I will try and find it. It looks like Pele himself agreed. :lol:
“Garrincha was an incredible player, one of the best there has ever been. He could do things with the ball that no other player could do.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022 ... -garrincha
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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This may be the documentary I referred to earlier. I have to watch it again to be sure.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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cic old boy wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:19 am
ohsee wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 4:45 pm
More meaningless quotes from Brian Clough of all people. :rotf: Abeg make we hear word jare. :biggrin:

I have lost count of how many full match videos of Pele I have watched. I used to have the full videos of the 1970 Brazil games :thumbs: I had access to a video archive of full Santos games as well as full Brazil WC games, some of which I downloaded. As I said, I used to write a blog on the greatest players of all time, and as anyone knows, I research to death everything I write. :thumbs:

Your constant claim that views of Pele are "rose tinted" ignores the truth that all kinds of information about Pele from video to histories to stats are available to the diligent researcher, and you too can research Pele videos on the internet. The only reason why you think a limited player like Messi is the GOAT is because, like the typical fanboy, you have not done your homework in this age of vast information. :biggrin:

Your comparing Lukaku to Pele does not merit a response. That is like comparing your parish priest to God. :rotf:

Yes, the quality of your team mates matters, but you ignore the fact that Pele started kicking butt with an unknown club called Santos at 16-17, while at the same age Messi was bench warming at junior Barca in Segunda Division B. :rotf: Pele started winning scoring championships IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL SEASON, at the age of 16-17, and went NINE STRAIGHT SEASONS AS TOP SCORER IN THE CAMPEONATO PAULISTA. :thumbs: And Messi? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Please, let us not go there :lol: . I forgive you for your nonsense talks for you know not what you say or do. :biggrin: You don't want to engage statistics because Pele's statistics are simply out of this world, and non-human.

In all the World Cups I have watched and the Copas, Messi has shown zero signs of the abilities he displayed with Barca. Why is that? Why is your GOAT unable to carry a team? Why does he need history class players to thrive? Pele never needed the kind of players Messi had at Barca to be outstanding at Santos. :thumbs: Again, do your homework my friend. We live in the information age. :biggrin:
:lol: :lol:
You are comparing watching 1970 WC videos of Brazil (6 games) with watching Messi every season since 2005??? You are comparing watching Santos in Brazil that for many years couldn't organise a national league championship and mostly played state championships??? You will soon claim Dominic "Alhaji" Nwobodo of Enugu Rangers was better than Marco Van Basten b/c of how he destroyed Abakaliki White Angels and Onitsha Red Devils in the East Central State Challenge Cup.

Messi "showed zero signs of the abilities" in WCs and Copas, which explains why he was the player of the tournament in the 2014 WC and the first player in tournament history to finish top scorer, top assists, player of the tournament and winner in the Copa in 2021.
:biggrin:
See distortion due to desperation. :biggrin: I have watched several full Pele games for Brazil and Santos, so it is much more than the 1970 WC. :thumbs: And see goal post moving. :biggrin: You asked how many full Pele games I watched, and now you are claiming it is only 6 games. :lol:

You are comparing Dominic Nwobodo of Rangers with Pele of Brazil? :rotf: :rotf: You are comparing the Campeonato Paulista, and outstanding world class league, with Nigeria that did not even have a national league until 1975? :rotf: No wonder you need to do your homework. Don't forget that the same Santos that won the Campeonato Paulista used to beat the best European teams like Benfica and AC Milan on regular trips to Europe. There was also an Intercontinental cup, which Santos, led by the "madman" Pele, won twice. :biggrin: Do your homeowork my friend. :biggrin:

Do you know how large the state of Sao Paolo is? It is bigger than that your Ingerlund, in fact, almost twice the size. With a population to match. :rotf: Bigger than many European nations. So this your argument has no basis. The only reason they could not organize a national league was because air travel was in its infancy then, and it was impossible to travel from one end of Brazil to another. But the best league in Brazil was the Paulista, and the best Brazilian players played there, so this your talk about state leagues shows you have not done your homework. :biggrin: This is the same Brazil that won the WC three times in Pele's era. :thumbs: So your arguments have no foundation. :biggrin:

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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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cic old boy wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:35 am
ohsee wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:00 pm
:rotf: :rotf:
Do your homework. :biggrin: Garrincha was ONE OF THE STARS. Pele, this 17 year old who was taken injured to the World Cup in an era in which there were no substitutions, recovered early enough to join the World Cup in the middle, and was Brazil's top scorer, and the second highest scorer at the WC with 6 goals. Now that spectacular and astonishing kid Pele, was THE STAR of the 1958 World Cup. :thumbs: Not Garrincha. :biggrin:
Go and watch the final against Sweden and not just the goals.

See the kind of football you are comparing with now. :lol: :lol:
Before the emergence of Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi, the debate about the greatest footballer of all time had largely centred around another feted duo — Diego Maradona and Pele.

But many in Brazil and outside have long wondered whether Pele was even the best player that country has produced or whether the true owner of that title was Manuel Francisco dos Santos, better known by his nickname of Garrincha.
:taunt: :taunt: :taunt:
There was a Garrincha documentary in which several Brazilians made the claim that he was better than Pele. I will try and find it. It looks like Pele himself agreed. :lol:
“Garrincha was an incredible player, one of the best there has ever been. He could do things with the ball that no other player could do.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022 ... -garrincha
Right. Garrincha the aimless dribbler was better than Pele. :rotf: :rotf: That is what you expect the crowd to say about his crowd-pleasing antics. :lol: Jay-Jay Okocha must be better than Messi too. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Your arguments are wack my friend.

I have the full 1958 Final on my hard drive. I have watched it. No one is saying that the game has not changed. You are making a strawman argument. A slower game does not mean better or worse. Otherwise the English league, which plays a much faster game, was better than the Italian league which was considered the best league in the world in the 1990s. :biggrin: I have already told you that it is not about "better." It is about who was able to achieve more extraordinary things given the constraints of his time. Each era was difficult and harder in different areas. To pretend it was "easier" for Pele does not explain why nobody else was doing what he was doing in his time, and it was considered incredible all over the world. :idea:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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ohsee wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:08 pm
:biggrin:
See distortion due to desperation. :biggrin: I have watched several full Pele games for Brazil and Santos, so it is much more than the 1970 WC. :thumbs: And see goal post moving. :biggrin: You asked how many full Pele games I watched, and now you are claiming it is only 6 games. :lol:

You are comparing Dominic Nwobodo of Rangers with Pele of Brazil? :rotf: :rotf: You are comparing the Campeonato Paulista, and outstanding world class league, with Nigeria that did not even have a national league until 1975? :rotf: No wonder you need to do your homework. Don't forget that the same Santos that won the Campeonato Paulista used to beat the best European teams like Benfica and AC Milan on regular trips to Europe. There was also an Intercontinental cup, which Santos, led by the "madman" Pele, won twice. :biggrin: Do your homeowork my friend. :biggrin:

Do you know how large the state of Sao Paolo is? It is bigger than that your Ingerlund, in fact, almost twice the size. With a population to match. :rotf: Bigger than many European nations. So this your argument has no basis. The only reason they could not organize a national league was because air travel was in its infancy then, and it was impossible to travel from one end of Brazil to another. But the best league in Brazil was the Paulista, and the best Brazilian players played there, so this your talk about state leagues shows you have not done your homework. :biggrin: This is the same Brazil that won the WC three times in Pele's era. :thumbs: So your arguments have no foundation. :biggrin:

I have watched the earthbound
:lol: Which kind “distortion”? You claimed to have watched all Brazil games at the WC in 1970. That’s a grand total of 6! It demonstrates the point around nostalgia in comparison with the reality of watching Messi, year on year since 2005, about 60 games a season. I said earlier that TV coverage has exposed modern players to the level of scrutiny Pele’s generation didn’t face.

It is very debatable whether a state championship in Brazil was “world class”. Nigeria had a national league from 1972. Those trips to Europe by Santos were exhibition games and as meaningless as Harlem Globetrotters basketball.

What relevance is the size of Sao Paolo? The Soviet Union was a larger country than Brazil and had a football league from 1936. The best Brazilian clubs were in Rio – Flamengo, Fluminense, Botafogo (Garrincha’s club) and Vasco.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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ohsee wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:11 pm
Right. Garrincha the aimless dribbler was better than Pele. :rotf: :rotf: That is what you expect the crowd to say about his crowd-pleasing antics. :lol: Jay-Jay Okocha must be better than Messi too. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Your arguments are wack my friend.

I have the full 1958 Final on my hard drive. I have watched it. No one is saying that the game has not changed. You are making a strawman argument. A slower game does not mean better or worse. Otherwise the English league, which plays a much faster game, was better than the Italian league which was considered the best league in the world in the 1990s. :biggrin: I have already told you that it is not about "better." It is about who was able to achieve more extraordinary things given the constraints of his time. Each era was difficult and harder in different areas. To pretend it was "easier" for Pele does not explain why nobody else was doing what he was doing in his time, and it was considered incredible all over the world. :idea:
:lol: Imagine Pele being proclaimed as the GOAT just b/c of beating up kwekwe teams in his state, while many of his countrymen were not even sure he was better than Garrincha!

The reality is that the game in Pele’s time was not only slower, there was negligible advancement in terms of tactics, systems, sports science, etc. Not to mention the WCs then just involved 16 teams from mainly 3 confederations. There used to be a show on telly here in the 90s that included a sketch called “Old football was rubbish”. It was like pub football. Go and watch your tape of the 1958 final and see mistakes that would embarrass a pub team. Your Italian v English football talk is pointless. I’ve long said 90mph English football lacks technical quality.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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cic old boy wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:12 am
ohsee wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:08 pm
:biggrin:
See distortion due to desperation. :biggrin: I have watched several full Pele games for Brazil and Santos, so it is much more than the 1970 WC. :thumbs: And see goal post moving. :biggrin: You asked how many full Pele games I watched, and now you are claiming it is only 6 games. :lol:

You are comparing Dominic Nwobodo of Rangers with Pele of Brazil? :rotf: :rotf: You are comparing the Campeonato Paulista, and outstanding world class league, with Nigeria that did not even have a national league until 1975? :rotf: No wonder you need to do your homework. Don't forget that the same Santos that won the Campeonato Paulista used to beat the best European teams like Benfica and AC Milan on regular trips to Europe. There was also an Intercontinental cup, which Santos, led by the "madman" Pele, won twice. :biggrin: Do your homeowork my friend. :biggrin:

Do you know how large the state of Sao Paolo is? It is bigger than that your Ingerlund, in fact, almost twice the size. With a population to match. :rotf: Bigger than many European nations. So this your argument has no basis. The only reason they could not organize a national league was because air travel was in its infancy then, and it was impossible to travel from one end of Brazil to another. But the best league in Brazil was the Paulista, and the best Brazilian players played there, so this your talk about state leagues shows you have not done your homework. :biggrin: This is the same Brazil that won the WC three times in Pele's era. :thumbs: So your arguments have no foundation. :biggrin:

I have watched the earthbound
:lol: Which kind “distortion”? You claimed to have watched all Brazil games at the WC in 1970. That’s a grand total of 6! It demonstrates the point around nostalgia in comparison with the reality of watching Messi, year on year since 2005, about 60 games a season. I said earlier that TV coverage has exposed modern players to the level of scrutiny Pele’s generation didn’t face.

It is very debatable whether a state championship in Brazil was “world class”. Nigeria had a national league from 1972. Those trips to Europe by Santos were exhibition games and as meaningless as Harlem Globetrotters basketball.

What relevance is the size of Sao Paolo? The Soviet Union was a larger country than Brazil and had a football league from 1936. The best Brazilian clubs were in Rio – Flamengo, Fluminense, Botafogo (Garrincha’s club) and Vasco.
:biggrin:
More desperate distortion. The point is that I have watched much more than 6 full Pele games. I have several on my hard drive and seen many more online. So your argument that nobody has seen full Pele games does not apply to me or anyone who has done their homework. :lol: That you have seen 457,926 :lol: Messi games is irrelevant. We are not counting who dribbled the most in different eras and different leagues because such a comparison is impossible. :biggrin: It is only Messi fan boys who think such comparisons are relevant to a GOAT discussion. The GOAT discussion is about GREATNESS (not better dribbler and club champion) which means extraordinary achievements that are shocking in any era, achievements that transcend era. :thumbs: Yes, Messi dribbled a lot with Barcelona. So? :lol: The real question for you is how come a whole alleged GOAT could not buy or beg a World Cup or Copa in several tries, and with several different generations of Argie teams? :rotf: It is very disturbing my friend. :biggrin:

The Paulista was the best league in Brazil and it produced world class players from Santos, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo. Do your homework. :biggrin: In the era of Pele, Santos Futebol Clube (the Santasticos :thumbs: ) was considered the best football club in the world, even more outstanding than Barcelona was when Messi played for the club. :thumbs: And they did not surround Pele with the best players from around the world in the way fake GOAT Messi was at Barca. :rotf: All the Santasticos were from Brazil. :thumbs:

The relevance of the size of Sao Paulo is that it could pass for a country. Trying to denigrate it by calling it a mere state as you do ignores its massive size and the powerhouse clubs that came from there. :biggrin:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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cic old boy wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 10:13 am
ohsee wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:11 pm
Right. Garrincha the aimless dribbler was better than Pele. :rotf: :rotf: That is what you expect the crowd to say about his crowd-pleasing antics. :lol: Jay-Jay Okocha must be better than Messi too. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Your arguments are wack my friend.

I have the full 1958 Final on my hard drive. I have watched it. No one is saying that the game has not changed. You are making a strawman argument. A slower game does not mean better or worse. Otherwise the English league, which plays a much faster game, was better than the Italian league which was considered the best league in the world in the 1990s. :biggrin: I have already told you that it is not about "better." It is about who was able to achieve more extraordinary things given the constraints of his time. Each era was difficult and harder in different areas. To pretend it was "easier" for Pele does not explain why nobody else was doing what he was doing in his time, and it was considered incredible all over the world. :idea:
:lol: Imagine Pele being proclaimed as the GOAT just b/c of beating up kwekwe teams in his state, while many of his countrymen were not even sure he was better than Garrincha!

The reality is that the game in Pele’s time was not only slower, there was negligible advancement in terms of tactics, systems, sports science, etc. Not to mention the WCs then just involved 16 teams from mainly 3 confederations. There used to be a show on telly here in the 90s that included a sketch called “Old football was rubbish”. It was like pub football. Go and watch your tape of the 1958 final and see mistakes that would embarrass a pub team. Your Italian v English football talk is pointless. I’ve long said 90mph English football lacks technical quality.
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
To respond to your kwia-kwia argument would mean rehashing all the smashing points I raised earlier. Whether or not they were "kwe-kwe" teams, Brazil was a world beater. Where have you ever seen a country that produced "kwe-kwe" teams go out and beat the world? Your Nigerian league has kwe-kwe teams; why has Nigeria produced no Peles or world beaters? :rotf:

OK, so the teams played "pub football" according to you. Yet, Ingerlund could not beg, borrow or buy a World Cup in that era. Even the "Magical Magyars" could not. :lol: Your argument about the past and the present is naive. All games change and perhaps become more sophisticated overtime. Does that make James Harden "greater" than Michael Jordan? :rotf: I have already used the analogy of literary GOATs. Shakespeare is widely considered the GOAT of playwrights. Should David Mamet replace him because he writes in a more sophisticated, information-wise and competitive age? Do your homework. :lol: :taunt:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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ohsee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:01 pm
:biggrin:
More desperate distortion. The point is that I have watched much more than 6 full Pele games. I have several on my hard drive and seen many more online. So your argument that nobody has seen full Pele games does not apply to me or anyone who has done their homework. :lol: That you have seen 457,926 :lol: Messi games is irrelevant. We are not counting who dribbled the most in different eras and different leagues because such a comparison is impossible. :biggrin: It is only Messi fan boys who think such comparisons are relevant to a GOAT discussion. The GOAT discussion is about GREATNESS (not better dribbler and club champion) which means extraordinary achievements that are shocking in any era, achievements that transcend era. :thumbs: Yes, Messi dribbled a lot with Barcelona. So? :lol: The real question for you is how come a whole alleged GOAT could not buy or beg a World Cup or Copa in several tries, and with several different generations of Argie teams? :rotf: It is very disturbing my friend. :biggrin:

The Paulista was the best league in Brazil and it produced world class players from Santos, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo. Do your homework. :biggrin: In the era of Pele, Santos Futebol Clube (the Santasticos :thumbs: ) was considered the best football club in the world, even more outstanding than Barcelona was when Messi played for the club. :thumbs: And they did not surround Pele with the best players from around the world in the way fake GOAT Messi was at Barca. :rotf: All the Santasticos were from Brazil. :thumbs:

The relevance of the size of Sao Paulo is that it could pass for a country. Trying to denigrate it by calling it a mere state as you do ignores its massive size and the powerhouse clubs that came from there. :biggrin:
Distorter talking about distortion! I didn't say nobody has seen full Pele games. I asked how many have you seen - in comparison with watching Messi 60 games a season since 2005.

"Greatness" is in relation to ability, the strength of the competition, etc. When I was at CIC we thought our best player was the best thing since sliced bread until he joined Rangers, who recruited the best players from the schools in the entire state. Our best player started looking average among the Rangers players. You compared Messi starting with Barca at 18 with Pele playing in a state championship at 15. Only someone blinded by nostalgia would compare the state league in Sao Paolo with La Liga/Champions League football. That's exactly Pep's point about nostalgia v reality.

If Pep's Barca played Pele's Santos, it would have been like Yugoslavia v Zaire in the 1974 WC. :lol: :lol:

If the size of Sao Paolo translates into quality football, nobody has informed China.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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ohsee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:21 pm
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
To respond to your kwia-kwia argument would mean rehashing all the smashing points I raised earlier. Whether or not they were "kwe-kwe" teams, Brazil was a world beater. Where have you ever seen a country that produced "kwe-kwe" teams go out and beat the world? Your Nigerian league has kwe-kwe teams; why has Nigeria produced no Peles or world beaters? :rotf:

OK, so the teams played "pub football" according to you. Yet, Ingerlund could not beg, borrow or buy a World Cup in that era. Even the "Magical Magyars" could not. :lol: Your argument about the past and the present is naive. All games change and perhaps become more sophisticated overtime. Does that make James Harden "greater" than Michael Jordan? :rotf: I have already used the analogy of literary GOATs. Shakespeare is widely considered the GOAT of playwrights. Should David Mamet replace him because he writes in a more sophisticated, information-wise and competitive age? Do your homework. :lol: :taunt:
:lol: The "world" that Brazil was beating usually involved just 3 confederations with 16 teams playing pub football. England couldn't win it b/c some pub teams are better than others.

The difference b/w today's basketball and Jordan's time is minimal. The difference b/w today's basketball and Bill Russell's time is humongous. Watch the 2002 WC and the 2022 WC. The game is practically at the same level. Watch the 1962 WC and it looks like CIC Enugu v Nike Grammar School. :lol:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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FYI, Pele stated that Garrincha was his best player ever!
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

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cic old boy wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:05 pm
ohsee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:01 pm
:biggrin:
More desperate distortion. The point is that I have watched much more than 6 full Pele games. I have several on my hard drive and seen many more online. So your argument that nobody has seen full Pele games does not apply to me or anyone who has done their homework. :lol: That you have seen 457,926 :lol: Messi games is irrelevant. We are not counting who dribbled the most in different eras and different leagues because such a comparison is impossible. :biggrin: It is only Messi fan boys who think such comparisons are relevant to a GOAT discussion. The GOAT discussion is about GREATNESS (not better dribbler and club champion) which means extraordinary achievements that are shocking in any era, achievements that transcend era. :thumbs: Yes, Messi dribbled a lot with Barcelona. So? :lol: The real question for you is how come a whole alleged GOAT could not buy or beg a World Cup or Copa in several tries, and with several different generations of Argie teams? :rotf: It is very disturbing my friend. :biggrin:

The Paulista was the best league in Brazil and it produced world class players from Santos, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo. Do your homework. :biggrin: In the era of Pele, Santos Futebol Clube (the Santasticos :thumbs: ) was considered the best football club in the world, even more outstanding than Barcelona was when Messi played for the club. :thumbs: And they did not surround Pele with the best players from around the world in the way fake GOAT Messi was at Barca. :rotf: All the Santasticos were from Brazil. :thumbs:

The relevance of the size of Sao Paulo is that it could pass for a country. Trying to denigrate it by calling it a mere state as you do ignores its massive size and the powerhouse clubs that came from there. :biggrin:
Distorter talking about distortion! I didn't say nobody has seen full Pele games. I asked how many have you seen - in comparison with watching Messi 60 games a season since 2005.

"Greatness" is in relation to ability, the strength of the competition, etc. When I was at CIC we thought our best player was the best thing since sliced bread until he joined Rangers, who recruited the best players from the schools in the entire state. Our best player started looking average among the Rangers players. You compared Messi starting with Barca at 18 with Pele playing in a state championship at 15. Only someone blinded by nostalgia would compare the state league in Sao Paolo with La Liga/Champions League football. That's exactly Pep's point about nostalgia v reality.

If Pep's Barca played Pele's Santos, it would have been like Yugoslavia v Zaire in the 1974 WC. :lol: :lol:

If the size of Sao Paolo translates into quality football, nobody has informed China.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
See imagination and pure opinion. You are still talking about "best" when I already told you it cannot be measured across eras. We cannot have Pele and Messi play in the same league and the same time, and subject them to the same conditions. We can only look at achievements.

Every expert recognizes that each era was competitive and difficult to play in in different ways. But your fanboyism :lol: will not let you see that Messi would have had a very difficult time in Pele's era when referees did not protect "star" players like him, when there were no yellow or red cards, and studs up tackling from behind were part of the game. Did everyone see how his princely holiness Messi was abusing referees left and right and did not get carded for it? :lol: Nobody protected Pele like the fake GOAT Messi has been protected, allowing Messi to dance easily around defences that are afraid to touch him. :rotf: And cic wants to believe that Messi played against more difficult defences? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Pele was injured nearly every season, due to the severe hacking he had to endure, and yet for nine straight seasons was top scorer EVEN DURING THE SEASONS WHEN HE WAS INJURED. :biggrin: Do your homework Messi fanboys. :biggrin:

Oh, so the Paulista was easy eh? :rotf: OK, where were the other 16 year olds scoring 32 goals in their first professional season WHILE PLAYING HALF THE GAMES? :thumbs: Please name all the other 16 year olds taking advantage of this "easy" state league biko. :lol: By the way, look at the scoring by the other players in the league. The top scorers averaged the same number of goals that you find in the European leagues today. Do your homework. :biggrin: Pele's extraordinary feat was astonishing at the time, and is astonishing now. I am sure that if Messi ever hears it, he would immediately declare himself the fake GOAT, and ask his fanboys like you to stop arguing blindly and admit that Pele is the real GOAT. :lol: :lol:

As for Barca playing Santos, it is not about who was "better" which is the mistake you keep making about players and teams from different eras. That is just an empty unprovable opinion which you love to produce.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by ohsee »

cic old boy wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:12 pm
ohsee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:21 pm
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
To respond to your kwia-kwia argument would mean rehashing all the smashing points I raised earlier. Whether or not they were "kwe-kwe" teams, Brazil was a world beater. Where have you ever seen a country that produced "kwe-kwe" teams go out and beat the world? Your Nigerian league has kwe-kwe teams; why has Nigeria produced no Peles or world beaters? :rotf:

OK, so the teams played "pub football" according to you. Yet, Ingerlund could not beg, borrow or buy a World Cup in that era. Even the "Magical Magyars" could not. :lol: Your argument about the past and the present is naive. All games change and perhaps become more sophisticated overtime. Does that make James Harden "greater" than Michael Jordan? :rotf: I have already used the analogy of literary GOATs. Shakespeare is widely considered the GOAT of playwrights. Should David Mamet replace him because he writes in a more sophisticated, information-wise and competitive age? Do your homework. :lol: :taunt:
:lol: The "world" that Brazil was beating usually involved just 3 confederations with 16 teams playing pub football. England couldn't win it b/c some pub teams are better than others.

The difference b/w today's basketball and Jordan's time is minimal. The difference b/w today's basketball and Bill Russell's time is humongous. Watch the 2002 WC and the 2022 WC. The game is practically at the same level. Watch the 1962 WC and it looks like CIC Enugu v Nike Grammar School. :lol:
:biggrin: :biggrin:
Biased opinion and propaganda pulled from you know where cannot substitute for facts. :biggrin:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by cic old boy »

ohsee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:17 am
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
See imagination and pure opinion. You are still talking about "best" when I already told you it cannot be measured across eras. We cannot have Pele and Messi play in the same league and the same time, and subject them to the same conditions. We can only look at achievements.

Every expert recognizes that each era was competitive and difficult to play in in different ways. But your fanboyism :lol: will not let you see that Messi would have had a very difficult time in Pele's era when referees did not protect "star" players like him, when there were no yellow or red cards, and studs up tackling from behind were part of the game. Did everyone see how his princely holiness Messi was abusing referees left and right and did not get carded for it? :lol: Nobody protected Pele like the fake GOAT Messi has been protected, allowing Messi to dance easily around defences that are afraid to touch him. :rotf: And cic wants to believe that Messi played against more difficult defences? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Pele was injured nearly every season, due to the severe hacking he had to endure, and yet for nine straight seasons was top scorer EVEN DURING THE SEASONS WHEN HE WAS INJURED. :biggrin: Do your homework Messi fanboys. :biggrin:

Oh, so the Paulista was easy eh? :rotf: OK, where were the other 16 year olds scoring 32 goals in their first professional season WHILE PLAYING HALF THE GAMES? :thumbs: Please name all the other 16 year olds taking advantage of this "easy" state league biko. :lol: By the way, look at the scoring by the other players in the league. The top scorers averaged the same number of goals that you find in the European leagues today. Do your homework. :biggrin: Pele's extraordinary feat was astonishing at the time, and is astonishing now. I am sure that if Messi ever hears it, he would immediately declare himself the fake GOAT, and ask his fanboys like you to stop arguing blindly and admit that Pele is the real GOAT. :lol: :lol:

As for Barca playing Santos, it is not about who was "better" which is the mistake you keep making about players and teams from different eras. That is just an empty unprovable opinion which you love to produce.
If you are claiming you can't measure players across eras, there are question marks whether Pele was better than Garrincha in that era. :lol: :lol:

The argument that Messi won't last with the rough tackles of the Pele era is like the Neanderthal stuff about whether he could play in the Premier League, agricultural football, cold night at Stoke and all that. It's a rubbish argument. Football is about ability with the ball and it's not rugby. Those hard tackling defenders were slower than defenders today. As Ali used to say, you can't hit what you can't see.

In every lesser developed competition, younger players get a break earlier. That's how football works. That's why young players from big clubs are loaned out to lower divs to learn b/4 returning to the parent club. This is why Messi breaking into the Barca first team at 18 is more remarkable than 16 year old Pele breaking into the Santos team in a backwater league.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by BAP »

cic old boy wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:32 am
ohsee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:17 am
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
See imagination and pure opinion. You are still talking about "best" when I already told you it cannot be measured across eras. We cannot have Pele and Messi play in the same league and the same time, and subject them to the same conditions. We can only look at achievements.

Every expert recognizes that each era was competitive and difficult to play in in different ways. But your fanboyism :lol: will not let you see that Messi would have had a very difficult time in Pele's era when referees did not protect "star" players like him, when there were no yellow or red cards, and studs up tackling from behind were part of the game. Did everyone see how his princely holiness Messi was abusing referees left and right and did not get carded for it? :lol: Nobody protected Pele like the fake GOAT Messi has been protected, allowing Messi to dance easily around defences that are afraid to touch him. :rotf: And cic wants to believe that Messi played against more difficult defences? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Pele was injured nearly every season, due to the severe hacking he had to endure, and yet for nine straight seasons was top scorer EVEN DURING THE SEASONS WHEN HE WAS INJURED. :biggrin: Do your homework Messi fanboys. :biggrin:

Oh, so the Paulista was easy eh? :rotf: OK, where were the other 16 year olds scoring 32 goals in their first professional season WHILE PLAYING HALF THE GAMES? :thumbs: Please name all the other 16 year olds taking advantage of this "easy" state league biko. :lol: By the way, look at the scoring by the other players in the league. The top scorers averaged the same number of goals that you find in the European leagues today. Do your homework. :biggrin: Pele's extraordinary feat was astonishing at the time, and is astonishing now. I am sure that if Messi ever hears it, he would immediately declare himself the fake GOAT, and ask his fanboys like you to stop arguing blindly and admit that Pele is the real GOAT. :lol: :lol:

As for Barca playing Santos, it is not about who was "better" which is the mistake you keep making about players and teams from different eras. That is just an empty unprovable opinion which you love to produce.
If you are claiming you can't measure players across eras, there are question marks whether Pele was better than Garrincha in that era. :lol: :lol:

The argument that Messi won't last with the rough tackles of the Pele era is like the Neanderthal stuff about whether he could play in the Premier League, agricultural football, cold night at Stoke and all that. It's a rubbish argument. Football is about ability with the ball and it's not rugby. Those hard tackling defenders were slower than defenders today. As Ali used to say, you can't hit what you can't see.

In every lesser developed competition, younger players get a break earlier. That's how football works. That's why young players from big clubs are loaned out to lower divs to learn b/4 returning to the parent club. This is why Messi breaking into the Barca first team at 18 is more remarkable than 16 year old Pele breaking into the Santos team in a backwater league.
Since you bring up speed .. You do Know that Pele could run the 100, in 11 seconds right ? While Messi, Mordern Training, Fitness Methods and all can only run same in 12 seconds .

Furthermore, Pele's vertical leap was 48 Inches (Same as Michael Jordan's) while Messi's only Measures 41 Inches

So on the basis of pure quantifiable athleticism even you would have to concede that its not even close. No ?
Last edited by BAP on Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by BAP »

ohsee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:17 am
cic old boy wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:05 pm
ohsee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:01 pm
:biggrin:
More desperate distortion. The point is that I have watched much more than 6 full Pele games. I have several on my hard drive and seen many more online. So your argument that nobody has seen full Pele games does not apply to me or anyone who has done their homework. :lol: That you have seen 457,926 :lol: Messi games is irrelevant. We are not counting who dribbled the most in different eras and different leagues because such a comparison is impossible. :biggrin: It is only Messi fan boys who think such comparisons are relevant to a GOAT discussion. The GOAT discussion is about GREATNESS (not better dribbler and club champion) which means extraordinary achievements that are shocking in any era, achievements that transcend era. :thumbs: Yes, Messi dribbled a lot with Barcelona. So? :lol: The real question for you is how come a whole alleged GOAT could not buy or beg a World Cup or Copa in several tries, and with several different generations of Argie teams? :rotf: It is very disturbing my friend. :biggrin:

The Paulista was the best league in Brazil and it produced world class players from Santos, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo. Do your homework. :biggrin: In the era of Pele, Santos Futebol Clube (the Santasticos :thumbs: ) was considered the best football club in the world, even more outstanding than Barcelona was when Messi played for the club. :thumbs: And they did not surround Pele with the best players from around the world in the way fake GOAT Messi was at Barca. :rotf: All the Santasticos were from Brazil. :thumbs:

The relevance of the size of Sao Paulo is that it could pass for a country. Trying to denigrate it by calling it a mere state as you do ignores its massive size and the powerhouse clubs that came from there. :biggrin:
Distorter talking about distortion! I didn't say nobody has seen full Pele games. I asked how many have you seen - in comparison with watching Messi 60 games a season since 2005.

"Greatness" is in relation to ability, the strength of the competition, etc. When I was at CIC we thought our best player was the best thing since sliced bread until he joined Rangers, who recruited the best players from the schools in the entire state. Our best player started looking average among the Rangers players. You compared Messi starting with Barca at 18 with Pele playing in a state championship at 15. Only someone blinded by nostalgia would compare the state league in Sao Paolo with La Liga/Champions League football. That's exactly Pep's point about nostalgia v reality.

If Pep's Barca played Pele's Santos, it would have been like Yugoslavia v Zaire in the 1974 WC. :lol: :lol:

If the size of Sao Paolo translates into quality football, nobody has informed China.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
See imagination and pure opinion. You are still talking about "best" when I already told you it cannot be measured across eras. We cannot have Pele and Messi play in the same league and the same time, and subject them to the same conditions. We can only look at achievements.

Every expert recognizes that each era was competitive and difficult to play in in different ways. But your fanboyism :lol: will not let you see that Messi would have had a very difficult time in Pele's era when referees did not protect "star" players like him, when there were no yellow or red cards, and studs up tackling from behind were part of the game. Did everyone see how his princely holiness Messi was abusing referees left and right and did not get carded for it? :lol: Nobody protected Pele like the fake GOAT Messi has been protected, allowing Messi to dance easily around defences that are afraid to touch him. :rotf: And cic wants to believe that Messi played against more difficult defences? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Pele was injured nearly every season, due to the severe hacking he had to endure, and yet for nine straight seasons was top scorer EVEN DURING THE SEASONS WHEN HE WAS INJURED. :biggrin: Do your homework Messi fanboys. :biggrin:

Oh, so the Paulista was easy eh? :rotf: OK, where were the other 16 year olds scoring 32 goals in their first professional season WHILE PLAYING HALF THE GAMES? :thumbs: Please name all the other 16 year olds taking advantage of this "easy" state league biko. :lol: By the way, look at the scoring by the other players in the league. The top scorers averaged the same number of goals that you find in the European leagues today. Do your homework. :biggrin: Pele's extraordinary feat was astonishing at the time, and is astonishing now. I am sure that if Messi ever hears it, he would immediately declare himself the fake GOAT, and ask his fanboys like you to stop arguing blindly and admit that Pele is the real GOAT. :lol: :lol:

As for Barca playing Santos, it is not about who was "better" which is the mistake you keep making about players and teams from different eras. That is just an empty unprovable opinion which you love to produce.
Oga Ohsee my guy .. I dey enjoy these your posts no be small .. :clap:

ONAN: I wish could come back to rant and rave to come halla you small but my addictive personality wont allow me to do any other work if I came there so i have purposely stayed away :mrgreen:

Anyway na God I take Beg you please revive HAUDA .. That place was a treasure trove :thumbs: :thumbs:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by ohsee »

cic old boy wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:32 am
ohsee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:17 am
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
See imagination and pure opinion. You are still talking about "best" when I already told you it cannot be measured across eras. We cannot have Pele and Messi play in the same league and the same time, and subject them to the same conditions. We can only look at achievements.

Every expert recognizes that each era was competitive and difficult to play in in different ways. But your fanboyism :lol: will not let you see that Messi would have had a very difficult time in Pele's era when referees did not protect "star" players like him, when there were no yellow or red cards, and studs up tackling from behind were part of the game. Did everyone see how his princely holiness Messi was abusing referees left and right and did not get carded for it? :lol: Nobody protected Pele like the fake GOAT Messi has been protected, allowing Messi to dance easily around defences that are afraid to touch him. :rotf: And cic wants to believe that Messi played against more difficult defences? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Pele was injured nearly every season, due to the severe hacking he had to endure, and yet for nine straight seasons was top scorer EVEN DURING THE SEASONS WHEN HE WAS INJURED. :biggrin: Do your homework Messi fanboys. :biggrin:

Oh, so the Paulista was easy eh? :rotf: OK, where were the other 16 year olds scoring 32 goals in their first professional season WHILE PLAYING HALF THE GAMES? :thumbs: Please name all the other 16 year olds taking advantage of this "easy" state league biko. :lol: By the way, look at the scoring by the other players in the league. The top scorers averaged the same number of goals that you find in the European leagues today. Do your homework. :biggrin: Pele's extraordinary feat was astonishing at the time, and is astonishing now. I am sure that if Messi ever hears it, he would immediately declare himself the fake GOAT, and ask his fanboys like you to stop arguing blindly and admit that Pele is the real GOAT. :lol: :lol:

As for Barca playing Santos, it is not about who was "better" which is the mistake you keep making about players and teams from different eras. That is just an empty unprovable opinion which you love to produce.
If you are claiming you can't measure players across eras, there are question marks whether Pele was better than Garrincha in that era. :lol: :lol:

The argument that Messi won't last with the rough tackles of the Pele era is like the Neanderthal stuff about whether he could play in the Premier League, agricultural football, cold night at Stoke and all that. It's a rubbish argument. Football is about ability with the ball and it's not rugby. Those hard tackling defenders were slower than defenders today. As Ali used to say, you can't hit what you can't see.

In every lesser developed competition, younger players get a break earlier. That's how football works. That's why young players from big clubs are loaned out to lower divs to learn b/4 returning to the parent club. This is why Messi breaking into the Barca first team at 18 is more remarkable than 16 year old Pele breaking into the Santos team in a backwater league.
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
All opinion, no facts. :rotf:
"Question marks" about Pele and Garrincha are opinions from uninformed fans, like those who think Okocha is better than Zidane. :rotf:

See worthless opinion--"Neanderthal stuff", "rubbish argument..." "Messi breaking into this league is more remarkable than that league" Please put, "In my uninformed opinion....." in front of everything you post jare. :lol:

"In lesser developed competition younger players get a break earlier...." :biggrin: OK then, where was Messi scoring 32 goals in his first professional season when he began in the THIRD DIVISION in Spain? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Do your homework! :lol: He scored all of 5 goals playing for Barcelona C. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Keep giving me rope to hang you. :thumbs: I never finish oh. Oya, give me the names of 16 year olds in lower divisions scoring 32 goals in their first professional season while playing half the games? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Mssssschewwwww. :lol: Fanboyism no good. It blinds too many fans. :lol:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by ohsee »

BAP wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:09 pm
ohsee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:17 am
cic old boy wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:05 pm
ohsee wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:01 pm
:biggrin:
More desperate distortion. The point is that I have watched much more than 6 full Pele games. I have several on my hard drive and seen many more online. So your argument that nobody has seen full Pele games does not apply to me or anyone who has done their homework. :lol: That you have seen 457,926 :lol: Messi games is irrelevant. We are not counting who dribbled the most in different eras and different leagues because such a comparison is impossible. :biggrin: It is only Messi fan boys who think such comparisons are relevant to a GOAT discussion. The GOAT discussion is about GREATNESS (not better dribbler and club champion) which means extraordinary achievements that are shocking in any era, achievements that transcend era. :thumbs: Yes, Messi dribbled a lot with Barcelona. So? :lol: The real question for you is how come a whole alleged GOAT could not buy or beg a World Cup or Copa in several tries, and with several different generations of Argie teams? :rotf: It is very disturbing my friend. :biggrin:

The Paulista was the best league in Brazil and it produced world class players from Santos, Palmeiras and Sao Paulo. Do your homework. :biggrin: In the era of Pele, Santos Futebol Clube (the Santasticos :thumbs: ) was considered the best football club in the world, even more outstanding than Barcelona was when Messi played for the club. :thumbs: And they did not surround Pele with the best players from around the world in the way fake GOAT Messi was at Barca. :rotf: All the Santasticos were from Brazil. :thumbs:

The relevance of the size of Sao Paulo is that it could pass for a country. Trying to denigrate it by calling it a mere state as you do ignores its massive size and the powerhouse clubs that came from there. :biggrin:
Distorter talking about distortion! I didn't say nobody has seen full Pele games. I asked how many have you seen - in comparison with watching Messi 60 games a season since 2005.

"Greatness" is in relation to ability, the strength of the competition, etc. When I was at CIC we thought our best player was the best thing since sliced bread until he joined Rangers, who recruited the best players from the schools in the entire state. Our best player started looking average among the Rangers players. You compared Messi starting with Barca at 18 with Pele playing in a state championship at 15. Only someone blinded by nostalgia would compare the state league in Sao Paolo with La Liga/Champions League football. That's exactly Pep's point about nostalgia v reality.

If Pep's Barca played Pele's Santos, it would have been like Yugoslavia v Zaire in the 1974 WC. :lol: :lol:

If the size of Sao Paolo translates into quality football, nobody has informed China.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
See imagination and pure opinion. You are still talking about "best" when I already told you it cannot be measured across eras. We cannot have Pele and Messi play in the same league and the same time, and subject them to the same conditions. We can only look at achievements.

Every expert recognizes that each era was competitive and difficult to play in in different ways. But your fanboyism :lol: will not let you see that Messi would have had a very difficult time in Pele's era when referees did not protect "star" players like him, when there were no yellow or red cards, and studs up tackling from behind were part of the game. Did everyone see how his princely holiness Messi was abusing referees left and right and did not get carded for it? :lol: Nobody protected Pele like the fake GOAT Messi has been protected, allowing Messi to dance easily around defences that are afraid to touch him. :rotf: And cic wants to believe that Messi played against more difficult defences? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Pele was injured nearly every season, due to the severe hacking he had to endure, and yet for nine straight seasons was top scorer EVEN DURING THE SEASONS WHEN HE WAS INJURED. :biggrin: Do your homework Messi fanboys. :biggrin:

Oh, so the Paulista was easy eh? :rotf: OK, where were the other 16 year olds scoring 32 goals in their first professional season WHILE PLAYING HALF THE GAMES? :thumbs: Please name all the other 16 year olds taking advantage of this "easy" state league biko. :lol: By the way, look at the scoring by the other players in the league. The top scorers averaged the same number of goals that you find in the European leagues today. Do your homework. :biggrin: Pele's extraordinary feat was astonishing at the time, and is astonishing now. I am sure that if Messi ever hears it, he would immediately declare himself the fake GOAT, and ask his fanboys like you to stop arguing blindly and admit that Pele is the real GOAT. :lol: :lol:

As for Barca playing Santos, it is not about who was "better" which is the mistake you keep making about players and teams from different eras. That is just an empty unprovable opinion which you love to produce.
Oga Ohsee my guy .. I dey enjoy these your posts no be small .. :clap:

ONAN: I wish could come back to rant and rave to come halla you small but my addictive personality wont allow me to do any other work if I came there so i have purposely stayed away :mrgreen:

Anyway na God I take Beg you please revive HAUDA .. That place was a treasure trove :thumbs: :thumbs:
Oga BAP, my good man, thank you so much. I will revive HAUDA in the next few months. I am taking a break because I realized more work and more learning needed to be done before I continue. I am in an intense process of study and investigation. But don't worry, when I return this year, it will not be a joke. :thumb: Thank you again for your blessings.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by kalani JR »

ohsee wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 4:45 pm
cic old boy wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:06 am
ohsee wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:18 pm
:lol: :lol:
This bobo, you like meaningless quotes. There are tons of video records and statistics about Pele from the past. Why is that memory and not reality? And why is it not reality to say that Messi the choker could not win a WC to save his life in 4 tries and was unable to perform his club magic for his national team? We were all there to see it. Messi is a GOAT for his fan boys. Messi missed the GOAT train long ago. We can have a special (with asterisk) GOAT for one-footed, ground-attack-only club players. Messi should win that easily. :biggrin:
How many full match videos of Pele have you watched? Stats don’t tell the full story about any player. Lukaku’s stats look great until you actually watch him. Pele is about rose-tinted specs of an era where the game wasn’t that much developed and played at walking pace.

Many variables determine results, not least the quality of your teammates. Messi won more with Barca because they were better than Argentina, not much to do with whether Messi played for Argentina as well as he did for his country.

The key to football lies in the name. It’s mainly played with the feet. As Brian Clough said: “If God had meant football to be played in the air he would have put grass in the sky”.
More meaningless quotes from Brian Clough of all people. :rotf: Abeg make we hear word jare. :biggrin:

I have lost count of how many full match videos of Pele I have watched. I used to have the full videos of the 1970 Brazil games :thumbs: I had access to a video archive of full Santos games as well as full Brazil WC games, some of which I downloaded. As I said, I used to write a blog on the greatest players of all time, and as anyone knows, I research to death everything I write. :thumbs:

Your constant claim that views of Pele are "rose tinted" ignores the truth that all kinds of information about Pele from video to histories to stats are available to the diligent researcher, and you too can research Pele videos on the internet. The only reason why you think a limited player like Messi is the GOAT is because, like the typical fanboy, you have not done your homework in this age of vast information. :biggrin:

Your comparing Lukaku to Pele does not merit a response. That is like comparing your parish priest to God. :rotf:

Yes, the quality of your team mates matters, but you ignore the fact that Pele started kicking butt with an unknown club called Santos at 16-17, while at the same age Messi was bench warming at junior Barca in Segunda Division B. :rotf: Pele started winning scoring championships IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL SEASON, at the age of 16-17, and went NINE STRAIGHT SEASONS AS TOP SCORER IN THE CAMPEONATO PAULISTA. :thumbs: And Messi? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Please, let us not go there :lol: . I forgive you for your nonsense talks for you know not what you say or do. :biggrin: You don't want to engage statistics because Pele's statistics are simply out of this world, and non-human.

In all the World Cups I have watched and the Copas, Messi has shown zero signs of the abilities he displayed with Barca. Why is that? Why is your GOAT unable to carry a team? Why does he need history class players to thrive? Pele never needed the kind of players Messi had at Barca to be outstanding at Santos. :thumbs: Again, do your homework my friend. We live in the information age. :biggrin:
This isn't true at all, 2015, 2016 and 2021 Copas Messi was the star player. And the 2014 and 2022 World Cups he was a deserved Golden Ball winner who got the country to the final.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by ohsee »

kalani JR wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:02 pm
ohsee wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 4:45 pm
cic old boy wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:06 am
ohsee wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:18 pm
:lol: :lol:
This bobo, you like meaningless quotes. There are tons of video records and statistics about Pele from the past. Why is that memory and not reality? And why is it not reality to say that Messi the choker could not win a WC to save his life in 4 tries and was unable to perform his club magic for his national team? We were all there to see it. Messi is a GOAT for his fan boys. Messi missed the GOAT train long ago. We can have a special (with asterisk) GOAT for one-footed, ground-attack-only club players. Messi should win that easily. :biggrin:
How many full match videos of Pele have you watched? Stats don’t tell the full story about any player. Lukaku’s stats look great until you actually watch him. Pele is about rose-tinted specs of an era where the game wasn’t that much developed and played at walking pace.

Many variables determine results, not least the quality of your teammates. Messi won more with Barca because they were better than Argentina, not much to do with whether Messi played for Argentina as well as he did for his country.

The key to football lies in the name. It’s mainly played with the feet. As Brian Clough said: “If God had meant football to be played in the air he would have put grass in the sky”.
More meaningless quotes from Brian Clough of all people. :rotf: Abeg make we hear word jare. :biggrin:

I have lost count of how many full match videos of Pele I have watched. I used to have the full videos of the 1970 Brazil games :thumbs: I had access to a video archive of full Santos games as well as full Brazil WC games, some of which I downloaded. As I said, I used to write a blog on the greatest players of all time, and as anyone knows, I research to death everything I write. :thumbs:

Your constant claim that views of Pele are "rose tinted" ignores the truth that all kinds of information about Pele from video to histories to stats are available to the diligent researcher, and you too can research Pele videos on the internet. The only reason why you think a limited player like Messi is the GOAT is because, like the typical fanboy, you have not done your homework in this age of vast information. :biggrin:

Your comparing Lukaku to Pele does not merit a response. That is like comparing your parish priest to God. :rotf:

Yes, the quality of your team mates matters, but you ignore the fact that Pele started kicking butt with an unknown club called Santos at 16-17, while at the same age Messi was bench warming at junior Barca in Segunda Division B. :rotf: Pele started winning scoring championships IN HIS FIRST PROFESSIONAL SEASON, at the age of 16-17, and went NINE STRAIGHT SEASONS AS TOP SCORER IN THE CAMPEONATO PAULISTA. :thumbs: And Messi? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Please, let us not go there :lol: . I forgive you for your nonsense talks for you know not what you say or do. :biggrin: You don't want to engage statistics because Pele's statistics are simply out of this world, and non-human.

In all the World Cups I have watched and the Copas, Messi has shown zero signs of the abilities he displayed with Barca. Why is that? Why is your GOAT unable to carry a team? Why does he need history class players to thrive? Pele never needed the kind of players Messi had at Barca to be outstanding at Santos. :thumbs: Again, do your homework my friend. We live in the information age. :biggrin:
This isn't true at all, 2015, 2016 and 2021 Copas Messi was the star player. And the 2014 and 2022 World Cups he was a deserved Golden Ball winner who got the country to the final.
:biggrin:
So he was great at moral victories. He "played well" in several Copas, and World Cups, but could not win. :biggrin: At Barca, he was a serial winner. :biggrin: Big difference. Why don't we just call him the Greatest Club Player of all time? :biggrin: :clap: :clap:
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by cic old boy »

BAP wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:05 pm

Since you bring up speed .. You do Know that Pele could run the 100, in 11 seconds right ? While Messi, Mordern Training, Fitness Methods and all can only run same in 12 seconds .

Furthermore, Pele's vertical leap was 48 Inches (Same as Michael Jordan's) while Messi's only Measures 41 Inches

So on the basis of pure quantifiable athleticism even you would have to concede that its not even close. No ?
But the argument is not whether Pele was faster than Messi or who could jump higher. Raheem Sterling is probably faster than both. What does it prove? In football, a fast brain + technical ability beat fast feet.
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Re: OFFICIAL- KING LEO IS DA GOAT

Post by cic old boy »

ohsee wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:48 pm
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
All opinion, no facts. :rotf:
"Question marks" about Pele and Garrincha are opinions from uninformed fans, like those who think Okocha is better than Zidane. :rotf:

See worthless opinion--"Neanderthal stuff", "rubbish argument..." "Messi breaking into this league is more remarkable than that league" Please put, "In my uninformed opinion....." in front of everything you post jare. :lol:

"In lesser developed competition younger players get a break earlier...." :biggrin: OK then, where was Messi scoring 32 goals in his first professional season when he began in the THIRD DIVISION in Spain? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Do your homework! :lol: He scored all of 5 goals playing for Barcelona C. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Keep giving me rope to hang you. :thumbs: I never finish oh. Oya, give me the names of 16 year olds in lower divisions scoring 32 goals in their first professional season while playing half the games? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Mssssschewwwww. :lol: Fanboyism no good. It blinds too many fans. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Helloooo!!! So you are just discovering that football is a matter of opinions? Those of you misguided "soccer" fans in North America think everything is about stats. This is why when Tapinho Penaldo groupies claim he is the best b/c he has the record for international goals, I remind them that the previous holder of the record was Ali Daei and no one claimed he was the best.

If you claim playing for Santos in the Sao Paolo league was more competitive than playing for Barcelona in La Liga and the CL, we know for sure to file your opinion in the "uninformed" section.

You clearly don't know how football works. :lol: Messi wasn't a "professional" when he played in the 3rd Div for the the C team. You can't sign a pro contract until you are 17. B/4 17, he was an academy player "loaned" out to the C and B teams to gain experience.
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