Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

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Re: Michael Oliver: An Affirmative Action Ref

Post by YemiBrazil »

Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:Wondered how/why Oliver was appointed to ref the Juve/Madrid game...

Turns out this was an affirmative action decision to help 'grow' a young English ref by assigning him a high profile game.

To be clear, I do not blame him for the PK call. Nothing in his experience could've prepared him for dealing with Madrid's Lucas Vazquez- a well rounded and thoroughbred simulator.

Close watchers of La Liga would know of Vazquez, going back to his loan days with Espanyol.

For me, the events that led to Buffon's red card was in part a product of Oliver's failures, inexperience and general poor management. Oliver is fundamentally a poor ref' although I have to admit he is better than Jon Moss!
Txj

Honestly, I am beyond shock at your use of affirmative action to describe a referee that you describe as being "helped" to grow and, in essence, allude to the referee's non-qualification for a position to which he had been entrusted. Make no mistake, I am not interested in this referee but in your use of affirmative action as a descriptor. It is an indelibly shocking descriptor to use. In fact, to state that it is shocking is to state the least. May I assume that it is an error on your part?

Here is what affirmatiove action is:

an action or policy favoring those who tend to suffer from discrimination, especially in relation to employment or education; positive discrimination.

Am I to assume that you believe that so many minorities, who are quite qualified, but would have been denied access without this program, are unqualified for positions that they access? Or should I assume that you are unaware what affirmative action is? Why exactly do you the affirmative action to describe this particular individual?
:agree: Well said Prof
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Re: Michael Oliver: An Affirmative Action Ref

Post by txj »

Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:Wondered how/why Oliver was appointed to ref the Juve/Madrid game...

Turns out this was an affirmative action decision to help 'grow' a young English ref by assigning him a high profile game.

To be clear, I do not blame him for the PK call. Nothing in his experience could've prepared him for dealing with Madrid's Lucas Vazquez- a well rounded and thoroughbred simulator.

Close watchers of La Liga would know of Vazquez, going back to his loan days with Espanyol.

For me, the events that led to Buffon's red card was in part a product of Oliver's failures, inexperience and general poor management. Oliver is fundamentally a poor ref' although I have to admit he is better than Jon Moss!
Txj

Honestly, I am beyond shock at your use of affirmative action to describe a referee that you describe as being "helped" to grow and, in essence, allude to the referee's non-qualification for a position to which he had been entrusted. Make no mistake, I am not interested in this referee but in your use of affirmative action as a descriptor. It is an indelibly shocking descriptor to use. In fact, to state that it is shocking is to state the least. May I assume that it is an error on your part?

Here is what affirmatiove action is:

an action or policy favoring those who tend to suffer from discrimination, especially in relation to employment or education; positive discrimination.

Am I to assume that you believe that so many minorities, who are quite qualified, but would have been denied access without this program, are unqualified for positions that they access? Or should I assume that you are unaware what affirmative action is? Why exactly do you use affirmative action to describe this particular individual?

Affirmative action is used here as a metaphor to describe UEFA's attempt to help young refs, like Oliver to grow by assigning them high profile games. In this case, to help promote English refs following their failure to be selected for the mundial.

You should go read Juve chairman Agnelli's comments in reference to the choice of Oliver, or listen to Mark Hasley's interview on this subject.

Like I said, my issue is not with the PK call. Its his handling of the events following this that showed his lack of quality...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by metalalloy »

It has been reported Oliver was given the game to give him some more experience with high profile games, and that if the first leg was closer, he would not have been in charge of the match. AA is not the correct term to describe it, but you understand the point he is trying to make.

At TJX, do you think he should have overlooked the bump and verbal berating by Buffon?
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by kofi86 »

And how else would a ref gain experience with high profile games if not officiating them?
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Re: Michael Oliver: An Affirmative Action Ref

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:Wondered how/why Oliver was appointed to ref the Juve/Madrid game...

Turns out this was an affirmative action decision to help 'grow' a young English ref by assigning him a high profile game.

To be clear, I do not blame him for the PK call. Nothing in his experience could've prepared him for dealing with Madrid's Lucas Vazquez- a well rounded and thoroughbred simulator.

Close watchers of La Liga would know of Vazquez, going back to his loan days with Espanyol.

For me, the events that led to Buffon's red card was in part a product of Oliver's failures, inexperience and general poor management. Oliver is fundamentally a poor ref' although I have to admit he is better than Jon Moss!
Txj

Honestly, I am beyond shock at your use of affirmative action to describe a referee that you describe as being "helped" to grow and, in essence, allude to the referee's non-qualification for a position to which he had been entrusted. Make no mistake, I am not interested in this referee but in your use of affirmative action as a descriptor. It is an indelibly shocking descriptor to use. In fact, to state that it is shocking is to state the least. May I assume that it is an error on your part?

Here is what affirmatiove action is:

an action or policy favoring those who tend to suffer from discrimination, especially in relation to employment or education; positive discrimination.

Am I to assume that you believe that so many minorities, who are quite qualified, but would have been denied access without this program, are unqualified for positions that they access? Or should I assume that you are unaware what affirmative action is? Why exactly do you use affirmative action to describe this particular individual?

Affirmative action is used here as a metaphor to describe UEFA's attempt to help young refs, like Oliver to grow by assigning them high profile games. In this case, to help promote English refs following their failure to be selected for the mundial.

You should go read Juve chairman Agnelli's comments in reference to the choice of Oliver, or listen to Mark Hasley's interview on this subject.

Like I said, my issue is not with the PK call. Its his handling of the events following this that showed his lack of quality...
Txj

I do understand that you use it as a metaphor. It is the wrong metaphor to use. That is the point. There are better and more appropriate metaphors to use.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Michael Oliver: An Affirmative Action Ref

Post by Cellular »

Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:Wondered how/why Oliver was appointed to ref the Juve/Madrid game...

Turns out this was an affirmative action decision to help 'grow' a young English ref by assigning him a high profile game.

To be clear, I do not blame him for the PK call. Nothing in his experience could've prepared him for dealing with Madrid's Lucas Vazquez- a well rounded and thoroughbred simulator.

Close watchers of La Liga would know of Vazquez, going back to his loan days with Espanyol.

For me, the events that led to Buffon's red card was in part a product of Oliver's failures, inexperience and general poor management. Oliver is fundamentally a poor ref' although I have to admit he is better than Jon Moss!
Txj

Honestly, I am beyond shock at your use of affirmative action to describe a referee that you describe as being "helped" to grow and, in essence, allude to the referee's non-qualification for a position to which he had been entrusted. Make no mistake, I am not interested in this referee but in your use of affirmative action as a descriptor. It is an indelibly shocking descriptor to use. In fact, to state that it is shocking is to state the least. May I assume that it is an error on your part?

Here is what affirmatiove action is:

an action or policy favoring those who tend to suffer from discrimination, especially in relation to employment or education; positive discrimination.

Am I to assume that you believe that so many minorities, who are quite qualified, but would have been denied access without this program, are unqualified for positions that they access? Or should I assume that you are unaware what affirmative action is? Why exactly do you use affirmative action to describe this particular individual?

Affirmative action is used here as a metaphor to describe UEFA's attempt to help young refs, like Oliver to grow by assigning them high profile games. In this case, to help promote English refs following their failure to be selected for the mundial.

You should go read Juve chairman Agnelli's comments in reference to the choice of Oliver, or listen to Mark Hasley's interview on this subject.

Like I said, my issue is not with the PK call. Its his handling of the events following this that showed his lack of quality...
Txj

I do understand that you use it as a metaphor. It is the wrong metaphor to use. That is the point. There are better and more appropriate metaphors to use.
Completely wrong.

TXJ should know better.
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by metalalloy »

kofi86 wrote:And how else would a ref gain experience with high profile games if not officiating them?
Not all high profile games are the same. Do you throw an green ref to serve as the ref in the WC finals just to give them experience? The semis of the C. League is a very high profile match, i personally think Oliver handled himself exceptionally.
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
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Re: Michael Oliver: An Affirmative Action Ref

Post by Enugu II »

Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:Wondered how/why Oliver was appointed to ref the Juve/Madrid game...

Turns out this was an affirmative action decision to help 'grow' a young English ref by assigning him a high profile game.

To be clear, I do not blame him for the PK call. Nothing in his experience could've prepared him for dealing with Madrid's Lucas Vazquez- a well rounded and thoroughbred simulator.

Close watchers of La Liga would know of Vazquez, going back to his loan days with Espanyol.

For me, the events that led to Buffon's red card was in part a product of Oliver's failures, inexperience and general poor management. Oliver is fundamentally a poor ref' although I have to admit he is better than Jon Moss!
Txj

Honestly, I am beyond shock at your use of affirmative action to describe a referee that you describe as being "helped" to grow and, in essence, allude to the referee's non-qualification for a position to which he had been entrusted. Make no mistake, I am not interested in this referee but in your use of affirmative action as a descriptor. It is an indelibly shocking descriptor to use. In fact, to state that it is shocking is to state the least. May I assume that it is an error on your part?

Here is what affirmatiove action is:

an action or policy favoring those who tend to suffer from discrimination, especially in relation to employment or education; positive discrimination.

Am I to assume that you believe that so many minorities, who are quite qualified, but would have been denied access without this program, are unqualified for positions that they access? Or should I assume that you are unaware what affirmative action is? Why exactly do you use affirmative action to describe this particular individual?

Affirmative action is used here as a metaphor to describe UEFA's attempt to help young refs, like Oliver to grow by assigning them high profile games. In this case, to help promote English refs following their failure to be selected for the mundial.

You should go read Juve chairman Agnelli's comments in reference to the choice of Oliver, or listen to Mark Hasley's interview on this subject.

Like I said, my issue is not with the PK call. Its his handling of the events following this that showed his lack of quality...
Txj

I do understand that you use it as a metaphor. It is the wrong metaphor to use. That is the point. There are better and more appropriate metaphors to use.
Completely wrong.

TXJ should know better.
Cell,

Man, I was infuriated when I read it. Frankly, I believe txj did not mean it because it is waaaay out of left field!

However, surprisingly he has not stated that he used it in error. That then makes me wonder if he meant it. If he did, then my thinking about him and his views changes dramatically by 360 degrees to be honest. It was a low blow for a program that has granted fairness over several years of racial and other types of discrimination.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by txj »

EII/Cellular,
I stand by my statement. Its a metaphor. It’s also not a criticism of the AA program, which is an excellent program to address inequality, but which can also be misapplied, when used wrongly, hence the metaphor.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to completely ignore the specific context in which it is being used, including the quotation marks around the term.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by Cellular »

txj wrote:EII/Cellular,
I stand by my statement. Its a metaphor. It’s also not a criticism of the AA program, which is an excellent program to address inequality, but which can also be misapplied, when used wrongly, hence the metaphor.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to completely ignore the specific context in which it is being used, including the quotation marks around the term.
Dude, you are wrong!

For a lot of white people, Affirmative Action is seen as giving an opportunity to a less qualified even an unqualified person...they don't see it as an issue of diversity, inclusiveness and above all access. For you to use that term to describe this particular referee and the events surrounding his decision is appalling and unfortunate especially for a black man who lives in the US and knows fully well the issues and negative narrative around the use of the term.

You can't and shouldn't be propagating a negative stereotype regarding Affirmative Action.


And the referee got the call right.
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by txj »

Cellular wrote:
txj wrote:EII/Cellular,
I stand by my statement. Its a metaphor. It’s also not a criticism of the AA program, which is an excellent program to address inequality, but which can also be misapplied, when used wrongly, hence the metaphor.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to completely ignore the specific context in which it is being used, including the quotation marks around the term.
Dude, you are wrong!

For a lot of white people, Affirmative Action is seen as giving an opportunity to a less qualified even an unqualified person...they don't see it as an issue of diversity, inclusiveness and above all access. For you to use that term to describe this particular referee and the events surrounding his decision is appalling and unfortunate especially for a black man who lives in the US and knows fully well the issues and negative narrative around the use of the term.

You can't and shouldn't be propagating a negative stereotype of regarding Affirmative Action.


And the referee got the call right.
Ironic coming from a Trump supporter. The vast majority of whites support the program. I believe the issue of stereotype is well addressed by the quotes around the term.

Moving on.......
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by Cellular »

txj wrote:
Cellular wrote:
txj wrote:EII/Cellular,
I stand by my statement. Its a metaphor. It’s also not a criticism of the AA program, which is an excellent program to address inequality, but which can also be misapplied, when used wrongly, hence the metaphor.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to completely ignore the specific context in which it is being used, including the quotation marks around the term.
Dude, you are wrong!

For a lot of white people, Affirmative Action is seen as giving an opportunity to a less qualified even an unqualified person...they don't see it as an issue of diversity, inclusiveness and above all access. For you to use that term to describe this particular referee and the events surrounding his decision is appalling and unfortunate especially for a black man who lives in the US and knows fully well the issues and negative narrative around the use of the term.

You can't and shouldn't be propagating a negative stereotype of regarding Affirmative Action.


And the referee got the call right.
Ironic coming from a Trump supporter. The vast majority of whites support the program. I believe the issue of stereotype is well addressed by the quotes around the term.

Moving on.......
Nothing ironic about it.

Don't expect you to ever own up being wrong.
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote:EII/Cellular,
I stand by my statement. Its a metaphor. It’s also not a criticism of the AA program, which is an excellent program to address inequality, but which can also be misapplied, when used wrongly, hence the metaphor.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to completely ignore the specific context in which it is being used, including the quotation marks around the term.
Txj

Bros sometimes avoid digging deeper and being buried in a hole. Bottom line this is a poor attempt at a metaphor. This is exactly what gets people in trouble. That statement is tantamount deriding a system setup to correct unfairness, discrimination and racism. Never use it the way you did except you mean it. Move on, none of these justifications are close to compelling.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by kofi86 »

metalalloy wrote:
kofi86 wrote:And how else would a ref gain experience with high profile games if not officiating them?
Not all high profile games are the same. Do you throw an green ref to serve as the ref in the WC finals just to give them experience? The semis of the C. League is a very high profile match, i personally think Oliver handled himself exceptionally.

The World Cup final is the biggest match of football a CL quarter final is not that high profile obviously. Regardless of his performance I don't think letting him officiate the match if the UEFA has trust in him was a mistake. The guy has officiated more than 400 games, including an EFL cup final. Not the most high calibre games, but enough to trust him to officiate such a match imo.
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by Orion »

txj wrote:EII/Cellular,
I stand by my statement. Its a metaphor. It’s also not a criticism of the AA program, which is an excellent program to address inequality, but which can also be misapplied, when used wrongly, hence the metaphor.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to completely ignore the specific context in which it is being used, including the quotation marks around the term.
On most occasions, Affirmative Action is about giving minorities who are even MORE QUALIFIED than their white counterparts a chance to get employed and get past institutionalised racism and prejudice.

The people who stereotype it as negative are those who think everything is OK with the system because they themselves are not being negatively affected by institutionalised prejudice. They can't see why others would be complaining. But as a black person, I would presume you know they're wrong.

It is the completely wrong "metaphor" to use here. Own up to your mistake and move on.
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Re: Michael Oliver: An 'Affirmative Action' Ref

Post by wiseone »

I actually think pressure to give a PK built throughout the game as CR7 dived 5-6 times and was never punished (and the Madrid players constantly haranguing Oliver to demand red/yellow cards for Juve players). That sort of "game management" builds pressure on the ref (something our players need to learn).
txj wrote:Wondered how/why Oliver was appointed to ref the Juve/Madrid game...

Turns out this was an affirmative action decision to help 'grow' a young English ref by assigning him a high profile game.

To be clear, I do not blame him for the PK call. Nothing in his experience could've prepared him for dealing with Madrid's Lucas Vazquez- a well rounded and thoroughbred simulator.

Close watchers of La Liga would know of Vazquez, going back to his loan days with Espanyol.

For me, the events that led to Buffon's red card was in part a product of Oliver's failures, inexperience and general poor management. Oliver is fundamentally a poor ref' although I have to admit he is better than Jon Moss!
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