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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:58 am 
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vancity eagle wrote:
Troost
Ajayi
Awaziem
Omero
Balogun

Adarabioyo
Torunarigha
Udokhai
Iorfa

Kai



Udokhai barely survived relegation and Torunarigha's team ended up in the bottom half. They might be marginally better than some of our current players but you certainly won't be winning the World Cup with them. They're good players but are they good enough to just pick them without any vested interest on their part? We have to value our team and country enough to demand that players show a selfless commitment to the cause, the history and passion. None of them have done so.

There's a reason some here support shooting,Rangers, Eyimba etc; it's not because they have better players than Barca and Liverpool. The SE fan base was built, not selected. I remember Pastor West crying with his head wrapped in a blood soaked bandage v Sweden, the Joy a Young Kanu brought to millions when we finally beat Brazil in 96. What about the Mikel v Spain at the confederation cup? Knowing the team was down and had little chance he still had to will them forward. Can these guys relate to that? If they can, I welcome them to SE. If not then I'm prepared to miss the WC and roll with our TEAM.

I will trust Rohr's judgement. :thumb:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:07 am 
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Tobi17 wrote:
When Nigerians complain rather arrogantly (I mean I get the national pride part) about these German or English "rejects" etc that opt for us when all chips are down, I try not to pin it down to delusions of grandeur or perhaps nostalgia from our glorious past. I just ask them to remind me if our football league back home became so world class overnight that we now churn out world class players like some seventh wonder factory machine? but then I end up not even bothering myself asking... cause I know what the typical reply will be. Let's just be grateful we are blessed enough to have a vast pool of foreign born talents of Nigerian heritage to tap from... now whether or not the interest of these foreign legions lies with Naija or not, is simply subject to the various types of circumstances, opportunities among other factors (upbringing and cultural/environmental awareness) that they find themselves in. What works for a Saka might differ from what what works for an Iwobi or Aina etc in regards to choosing what country to represent... does that make them all less Nigerian in heritage? people have rights to have choices, and you damn well should expect them to settle for the ones they deem better for their careers. Its not the fault of these foreign kids that our league back home is utter wank.

But they are "rejects"...
That's just being FACTUAL, not 'arrogance'!

EVERYONE who qualifies for Nigerian citizenship/passport is a NIGERIAN, and deserves all of the rights and privileges of citizenship, including the privilege to be earnestly considered for a place in the national team. That fact should be non-debatable! Nevertheless, for the avoidance of any and all doubt, apart from Iwobi (and perhaps Aina), the FACTUAL reality is that the specific players under discussion and several others similarly placed are "rejects" (as in players who failed to garner call-ups) of English and German (and Dutch) national teams.

Meanwhile, the allusion to "our football league back home" is substantive drivel, as if our choices are restricted to either foreign-based "rejects" or the NPFL (given as our coach has prejudged and pre-indicated little or no interest in the latter). Nigeria has a regular supply-line of players who were born and bred in Nigeria who have become excellent full internationals without the necessity of being born and raised abroad and being "rejected" by foreign national team selectors - Chukwueze, Osimhen, Ndidi, Iheanacho, Collins, Awaziem, Etebo (played in the NPFL btw), etc.

I am glad that we have a big enough tent for everyone (even it seems that we are no longer evaluating home-based players on individual merit, but rather are effectively punishing them for the sins of the league), but please let's dispense with the underlying groveling and frankly subjugative mentality. If we do not "celebrate" (to borrow OTITOKORO's ill-turn of phrase) the callups of players born and raised in Nigeria (or those still based therein), exactly what accomplishment of (or what's so special about) foreign born and raised "rejects" are we being chastised for not celebrating?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:23 am 
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EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Troost
Ajayi
Awaziem
Omero
Balogun

Adarabioyo
Torunarigha
Udokhai
Iorfa

Kai



Udokhai barely survived relegation and Torunarigha's team ended up in the bottom half. They might be marginally better than some of our current players but you certainly won't be winning the World Cup with them. They're good players but are they good enough to just pick them without any vested interest on their part? We have to value our team and country enough to demand that players show a selfless commitment to the cause, the history and passion. None of them have done so.

There's a reason some here support shooting,Rangers, Eyimba etc; it's not because they have better players than Barca and Liverpool. The SE fan base was built, not selected. I remember Pastor West crying with his head wrapped in a blood soaked bandage v Sweden, the Joy a Young Kanu brought to millions when we finally beat Brazil in 96. What about the Mikel v Spain at the confederation cup? Knowing the team was down and had little chance he still had to will them forward. Can these guys relate to that? If they can, I welcome them to SE. If not then I'm prepared to miss the WC and roll with our TEAM.

I will trust Rohr's judgement. :thumb:


I can't believe I am agreeing with you.

If these guys are only marginally better is it worth dropping players that have shown greater commitment to the cause. I think not tbh.

What is good about the 2 germans is their youth though, at 22 and 23 they will have a long career.

Ajayi, Troost are a few years older, not to mention Balogun.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:53 pm 
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If they are only marginally better it becomes a toss up.
If they are measurably better, no argument.

If they are worse, you fashi.
It’s really not complicated like that.

It’s the whole point of invites for friendlies.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:08 pm 
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Bell wrote:
IF THE FAUCET IS IN YOUR HOUSE...


...you better be sure the valve is also there. Otherwise, your enemy can turn it off leaving you out to dry.
Bell

That was deep. We went from talking about Udokhai and Torunarigha to the possibility of Russia turning off the gas supply to Europe. From Nigerian football to western geopolitics in seconds. CE!!! :lol: :D

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:06 pm 
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Gotti wrote:
Tobi17 wrote:
When Nigerians complain rather arrogantly (I mean I get the national pride part) about these German or English "rejects" etc that opt for us when all chips are down, I try not to pin it down to delusions of grandeur or perhaps nostalgia from our glorious past. I just ask them to remind me if our football league back home became so world class overnight that we now churn out world class players like some seventh wonder factory machine? but then I end up not even bothering myself asking... cause I know what the typical reply will be. Let's just be grateful we are blessed enough to have a vast pool of foreign born talents of Nigerian heritage to tap from... now whether or not the interest of these foreign legions lies with Naija or not, is simply subject to the various types of circumstances, opportunities among other factors (upbringing and cultural/environmental awareness) that they find themselves in. What works for a Saka might differ from what what works for an Iwobi or Aina etc in regards to choosing what country to represent... does that make them all less Nigerian in heritage? people have rights to have choices, and you damn well should expect them to settle for the ones they deem better for their careers. Its not the fault of these foreign kids that our league back home is utter wank.

But they are "rejects"...
That's just being FACTUAL, not 'arrogance'!

EVERYONE who qualifies for Nigerian citizenship/passport is a NIGERIAN, and deserves all of the rights and privileges of citizenship, including the privilege to be earnestly considered for a place in the national team. That fact should be non-debatable! Nevertheless, for the avoidance of any and all doubt, apart from Iwobi (and perhaps Aina), the FACTUAL reality is that the specific players under discussion and several others similarly placed are "rejects" (as in players who failed to garner call-ups) of English and German (and Dutch) national teams.

Meanwhile, the allusion to "our football league back home" is substantive drivel, as if our choices are restricted to either foreign-based "rejects" or the NPFL (given as our coach has prejudged and pre-indicated little or no interest in the latter). Nigeria has a regular supply-line of players who were born and bred in Nigeria who have become excellent full internationals without the necessity of being born and raised abroad and being "rejected" by foreign national team selectors - Chukwueze, Osimhen, Ndidi, Iheanacho, Collins, Awaziem, Etebo (played in the NPFL btw), etc.

I am glad that we have a big enough tent for everyone (even it seems that we are no longer evaluating home-based players on individual merit, but rather are effectively punishing them for the sins of the league), but please let's dispense with the underlying groveling and frankly subjugative mentality. If we do not "celebrate" (to borrow OTITOKORO's ill-turn of phrase) the callups of players born and raised in Nigeria (or those still based therein), exactly what accomplishment of (or what's so special about) foreign born and raised "rejects" are we being chastised for not celebrating?


Gotti, I understand your sentiments but I follow join in the group that rejoice that we able to be attractive to our children in diaspora.

I hope that they have a positive experience with the National team.

And I also hope the football decision makers don't give up home on the local talent.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:46 pm 
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Gotti wrote:
Bell wrote:
IF THE FAUCET IS IN YOUR HOUSE...

...you better be sure the valve is also there. Otherwise, your enemy can turn it off leaving you out to dry.
Bell

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Facts...


That's old people's saying ...it's not relevant to my generation. Modern homes have valves inside the house.. :taunt:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:38 pm 
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1naija wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Bell wrote:
IF THE FAUCET IS IN YOUR HOUSE...

...you better be sure the valve is also there. Otherwise, your enemy can turn it off leaving you out to dry.
Bell

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Facts...


That's old people's saying ...it's not relevant to my generation. Modern homes have valves inside the house.. :taunt:[/quote
1kobo, 63 year old toothless drunkard, what do you know about modern homes! Broke azz modafucka, who cannot pay for gas and electricity! :taunt:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:50 pm 
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Cellular wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Tobi17 wrote:
When Nigerians complain rather arrogantly (I mean I get the national pride part) about these German or English "rejects" etc that opt for us when all chips are down, I try not to pin it down to delusions of grandeur or perhaps nostalgia from our glorious past. I just ask them to remind me if our football league back home became so world class overnight that we now churn out world class players like some seventh wonder factory machine? but then I end up not even bothering myself asking... cause I know what the typical reply will be. Let's just be grateful we are blessed enough to have a vast pool of foreign born talents of Nigerian heritage to tap from... now whether or not the interest of these foreign legions lies with Naija or not, is simply subject to the various types of circumstances, opportunities among other factors (upbringing and cultural/environmental awareness) that they find themselves in. What works for a Saka might differ from what what works for an Iwobi or Aina etc in regards to choosing what country to represent... does that make them all less Nigerian in heritage? people have rights to have choices, and you damn well should expect them to settle for the ones they deem better for their careers. Its not the fault of these foreign kids that our league back home is utter wank.

But they are "rejects"...
That's just being FACTUAL, not 'arrogance'!

EVERYONE who qualifies for Nigerian citizenship/passport is a NIGERIAN, and deserves all of the rights and privileges of citizenship, including the privilege to be earnestly considered for a place in the national team. That fact should be non-debatable! Nevertheless, for the avoidance of any and all doubt, apart from Iwobi (and perhaps Aina), the FACTUAL reality is that the specific players under discussion and several others similarly placed are "rejects" (as in players who failed to garner call-ups) of English and German (and Dutch) national teams.

Meanwhile, the allusion to "our football league back home" is substantive drivel, as if our choices are restricted to either foreign-based "rejects" or the NPFL (given as our coach has prejudged and pre-indicated little or no interest in the latter). Nigeria has a regular supply-line of players who were born and bred in Nigeria who have become excellent full internationals without the necessity of being born and raised abroad and being "rejected" by foreign national team selectors - Chukwueze, Osimhen, Ndidi, Iheanacho, Collins, Awaziem, Etebo (played in the NPFL btw), etc.

I am glad that we have a big enough tent for everyone (even it seems that we are no longer evaluating home-based players on individual merit, but rather are effectively punishing them for the sins of the league), but please let's dispense with the underlying groveling and frankly subjugative mentality. If we do not "celebrate" (to borrow OTITOKORO's ill-turn of phrase) the callups of players born and raised in Nigeria (or those still based therein), exactly what accomplishment of (or what's so special about) foreign born and raised "rejects" are we being chastised for not celebrating?


Gotti, I understand your sentiments but I follow join in the group that rejoice that we able to be attractive to our children in diaspora.

I hope that they have a positive experience with the National team.

And I also hope the football decision makers don't give up home on the local talent.

Ameobi is the biggest reject btw. :D

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DNQ no good o

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"The Yeyeman is hardly ever vulgar when dealing with anyone. " - Mar 23, 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:12 pm 
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For the avoidance of doubt, Otitokoro's specific comments were..."Instead of being thankful and celebrating the fact that we have such vast quality resources to tap into, we deride them and call them 'foreign rejects'. Seriously??
We are in a very unique position which EVERY other African country would love to be in, yet we question whether we should tap those resources to make our team stronger.

Most countries have only one talent pool to tap into, which is their home grown local talent pool. Nigeria, on the other hand, is in the unique position of being able to tap into two: those born and bred in Nigeria playing overseas (for brevity purposes, I will refer to them as 'BBN') AND those born and bred overseas ('BBO'). Isn't that something to be thankful for and celebrate? This was my initial point.
To be clear, no one is opposed to having BBN players in the SE. Afterall, who would not celebrate the likes of Osimhen, Iheanacho, Ndidi, Chukwueze, Zaidu, Ejuke, etc being an integral part of the squad. I would even suggest that most of them have a higher profile than the BBO players.
Now, the issue of contention is the chant to 'superimpose' NPFL players into the SE. That makes no sense whatsoever! A keen observer would note that most of the BBN players made their way to Europe via Football Academies in Nigeria. Not a single one of the BBN players in this current generation played professional football in Nigeria. Why? Because NPFL players simply don't cut it. The league standards are poor (quality, facilities, viewership, etc). The truth is: you build a squad based on the very best players at your disposal. The sad truth for most of you is that NPFL players do NOT have any of Nigeria's best players, currently, and thus, there is no reasonable justification to have them in the team!
Gotti wrote:
...If we do not "celebrate" (to borrow OTITOKORO's ill-turn of phrase) the callups of players born and raised in Nigeria (or those still based therein), exactly what accomplishment of (or what's so special about) foreign born and raised "rejects" are we being chastised for not celebrating?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:47 pm 
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Otitokoro,

I think you gloss over the debate and make it quite simplistic. The debate, IN FACT, is much more complex.

FIRST, the issue is not that people are against the talent pool from which the SE is drawn from. Far from it. The issue is rather the fact that those born overseas are given preferential treatment that may have little to do with their performance that warrants an SE call up. We have pointed to the Maduka Okoye case, for instance, being groomed from a fourth or third division level to the SE. This has encouraged players who have barely played for a top division club overseas clamoring for an SE call up that is not even considered for a locally based player who is playing at the NPFL level. Do not gloss over that issue or that blatant preferential treatment that was not based on performance by the invitee. He may well become a good player but he will do so after Nigeria invests resources that was not afforded to others.

SECOND, players who go from the NPFL or from the local level to Europe may not be getting a quick a look at the SE level as players who are born overseas and have just recently emerged rom the academy level. These things appear to be based on some preconceived notions about players born and bred overseas as opposed to those born in Nigeria. Who already know that this is the case based on interviews of the decision makers. That surely does not appear to be a fair process either.

THIRD, no one has argued that the players based in Nigeria are the best players for SE. That would be crazy given the fact that players are leaving Nigeria to play overseas on a regular basis. However, it must also not be denied that players continue to be produced, regularly and in a conveyor belt-like manner, in Nigeria annually. Thus, to ignore Nigeria totally is a major mistake.

The point above is that these issues should not be ignored. They are central to the debate.

Otitokoro wrote:
For the avoidance of doubt, Otitokoro's specific comments were..."Instead of being thankful and celebrating the fact that we have such vast quality resources to tap into, we deride them and call them 'foreign rejects'. Seriously??
We are in a very unique position which EVERY other African country would love to be in, yet we question whether we should tap those resources to make our team stronger.

Most countries have only one talent pool to tap into, which is their home grown local talent pool. Nigeria, on the other hand, is in the unique position of being able to tap into two: those born and bred in Nigeria playing overseas (for brevity purposes, I will refer to them as 'BBN') AND those born and bred overseas ('BBO'). Isn't that something to be thankful for and celebrate? This was my initial point.
To be clear, no one is opposed to having BBN players in the SE. Afterall, who would not celebrate the likes of Osimhen, Iheanacho, Ndidi, Chukwueze, Zaidu, Ejuke, etc being an integral part of the squad. I would even suggest that most of them have a higher profile than the BBO players.
Now, the issue of contention is the chant to 'superimpose' NPFL players into the SE. That makes no sense whatsoever! A keen observer would note that most of the BBN players made their way to Europe via Football Academies in Nigeria. Not a single one of the BBN players in this current generation played professional football in Nigeria. Why? Because NPFL players simply don't cut it. The league standards are poor (quality, facilities, viewership, etc). The truth is: you build a squad based on the very best players at your disposal. The sad truth for most of you is that NPFL players do NOT have any of Nigeria's best players, currently, and thus, there is no reasonable justification to have them in the team!
Gotti wrote:
...If we do not "celebrate" (to borrow OTITOKORO's ill-turn of phrase) the callups of players born and raised in Nigeria (or those still based therein), exactly what accomplishment of (or what's so special about) foreign born and raised "rejects" are we being chastised for not celebrating?

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The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:54 pm 
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Prof.,

You mentioned the phrase 'preferential treatment' and gave Maduka Okoye as an example to buttress your argument. How was he given preferential treatment? Were there not a slew of so-called NPFL goalies (who were labelled 'the best in Nigeria') called to camp PRIOR to him being invited? I recall the likes of Theo Afelokhai, Dele Ajiboye, Femi Thomas, etc. being scouted and invited to camp. Did they measure up to standard? So, if they are lacking in some baseline goalkeeping standards, does it make sense for the coach to keep inviting them? Does it not make sense to invite goalies that have an upward trajectory and who impressed when invited to camp?

Your second point makes absolutely no sense to me. Which players have moved from the NPFL to Europe in recent years? Have they moved to the top leagues, or are they in backwater leagues? Which outfield BBO player was called into the national team recently? Please provide examples and maybe we can have a debate.

Regarding your third point, MAJORITY of those agitating for inclusion of NPFL players want a quota system. I have heard and read numerous people (on CE and beyond) who have tried pushing that. There was discussion about forcibly inserting a clause in Rohr's contract to mandate he invites NPFL players. Fortunately, Pinnick didn't take the bait.

The truth is the 'conveyor belt' that is NOW relevant to Nigeria's MNT football development is upstream (Football Academies) and not downstream (NPFL teams). None of the overseas club scouts even bother to look at NPFL players anymore. (for every one NPFL player moving to Europe, there are at least TEN academy players doing the same). Most of the important and INFLUENTIAL SE players who were born and bred in Naija, but currently playing overseas, were tapped from academies in Nigeria - Victor Osimhen, Samuel Chukwueze, Wilfred Ndidi, Moses Simon, Collins, Zaidu, Kenneth Omeruo, Ejuke, etc.. Importantly, they NEVER played NPFL ball.

So why would you want to fish in a talent lake with little or no fish, when there is another bigger and more resourceful lake to fish from? Makes no sense to me.

Enugu II wrote:
Otitokoro,

I think you gloss over the debate and make it quite simplistic. The debate, IN FACT, is much more complex.

FIRST, the issue is not that people are against the talent pool from which the SE is drawn from. Far from it. The issue is rather the fact that those born overseas are given preferential treatment that may have little to do with their performance that warrants an SE call up. We have pointed to the Maduka Okoye case, for instance, being groomed from a fourth or third division level to the SE. This has encouraged players who have barely played for a top division club overseas clamoring for an SE call up that is not even considered for a locally based player who is playing at the NPFL level. Do not gloss over that issue or that blatant preferential treatment that was not based on performance by the invitee. He may well become a good player but he will do so after Nigeria invests resources that was not afforded to others.

SECOND, players who go from the NPFL or from the local level to Europe may not be getting a quick a look at the SE level as players who are born overseas and have just recently emerged from the academy level. These things appear to be based on some preconceived notions about players born and bred overseas as opposed to those born in Nigeria. Who already know that this is the case based on interviews of the decision makers. That surely does not appear to be a fair process either.

THIRD, no one has argued that the players based in Nigeria are the best players for SE. That would be crazy given the fact that players are leaving Nigeria to play overseas on a regular basis. However, it must also not be denied that players continue to be produced, regularly and in a conveyor belt-like manner, in Nigeria annually. Thus, to ignore Nigeria totally is a major mistake.

The point above is that these issues should not be ignored. They are central to the debate.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:14 pm 
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After the flash-in-the-pan bunch of NPFL players from the Keshi era that had us all excited for the future for nothing ((Mba, Egwuekwe, Oboabona, Odunlami, Uzoenyi etc) there really haven't been any players that have established themselves anywhere near the levels of Chukwueze, Collins, Ndidi, Ejuke, Nacho and of course Osimhen.

Chikatara was a big hope but seems to have gone totally quiet.
There's Ozonwafor who is just starting out.
Maybe another two or three but nobody else readily comes to mind.

Anyone that can't acknowledge the obvious problem is in denial.
We'd all love for the NPFL to be the backbone of the SE but it just aint happening right now and will take a long time for things to change.

Let's talk true.
Nigerians don't have that kind of patience.
They'll sack one coach after another for failing to deliver, regardless of the coach's best efforts.

Back to square 1 and our 20/20 'vision'.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:34 pm 
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Otitokoro wrote:
Prof.,

You mentioned the phrase 'preferential treatment' and gave Maduka Okoye as an example to buttress your argument. How was he given preferential treatment? Were there not a slew of so-called NPFL goalies (who were labelled 'the best in Nigeria') called to camp PRIOR to him being invited? I recall the likes of Theo Afelokhai, Dele Ajiboye, Femi Thomas, etc. being scouted and invited to camp. Did they measure up to standard? So, if they are lacking in some baseline goalkeeping standards, does it make sense for the coach to keep inviting them? Does it not make sense to invite goalies that have an upward trajectory and who impressed when invited to camp?

Quote:
BUT IT IS PREFERENTIAL when you send a coach to specially train a lower division player at his club. Was that given to any of the Nigerian-based goalkeepers. Bros, there is no denying a FACT that Maduka Okoye received preferential treatment. You can search the antecedents. Moreover, he has received several genuine call-ups as opposed to those who you listed who mostly received "perfunctory call ups" designed to stave-off criticisms


Your second point makes absolutely no sense to me. Which players have moved from the NPFL to Europe in recent years? Have they moved to the top leagues, or are they in backwater leagues? Which outfield BBO player was called into the national team recently? Please provide examples and maybe we can have a debate.

Quote:
The point is actually valid. They have moved to Europe. The leagues and clubs do not matter. You know why? If they do, how do you juxtapose that with the call p of a player in a semi-pro league from Europe as was Maduka's case?


Regarding your third point, MAJORITY of those agitating for inclusion of NPFL players want a quota system. I have heard and read numerous people (on CE and beyond) who have tried pushing that. There was discussion about forcibly inserting a clause in Rohr's contract to mandate he invites NPFL players. Fortunately, Pinnick didn't take the bait.

Quote:
While I am not big on use of a quota system, I do not and will not deny its viability as long as it does not negate the first 16 or so being chosen based on the manager's conception of 'merit.' I argue, however, that on merit alone there remains a possibility that a good enough player can be discovered playing in Nigeria at the point and moment of discovery.


The truth is the 'conveyor belt' that is NOW relevant to Nigeria's MNT football development is upstream (Football Academies) and not downstream (NPFL teams). None of the overseas club scouts even bother to look at NPFL players anymore. (for every one NPFL player moving to Europe, there are at least TEN academy players doing the same). Most of the important and INFLUENTIAL SE players who were born and bred in Naija, but currently playing overseas, were tapped from academies in Nigeria - Victor Osimhen, Samuel Chukwueze, Wilfred Ndidi, Moses Simon, Collins, Zaidu, Kenneth Omeruo, Ejuke, etc.. Importantly, they NEVER played NPFL ball.

So why would you want to fish in a talent lake with little or no fish, when there is another bigger and more resourceful lake to fish from? Makes no sense to me.
Quote:
It is really not a full view to base the choice of Nigerian players on the goals of European pro clubs. As you should know, the goals are drastically different from those of Nigeria. The local players even know this fact. Let me remind you that the reason why the clubs in Europe focus on academies is the belief that they can discover talents that they can stash away in academies till they (talents) are well asked to play full pro football. There are plenty of talents there. Why then seek a needle in a haystack by focusing on NPFL when it will be difficult to easily discover a player who can immediately play in your pro squad? Getting a player from an academy allows the clubs to stack a player in their academies till they are ready. There are plenty of such players. For Euro clubs, therefore, it is a matter of economies of scale = easier to discover players not ripe enough to play big time and then groom them than it is easy to find one immediately ready. Play the economy of scale game by going to a place where you get the biggest bag for your funds and make less mistakes. That makes sense to me. But for the NT, the goal ought to be different, if getting a good player by searching for a needle in a haystack, why not? You simply want the best for Nigeria and are not really or should not really be in the business of making a quick buck like the Euro clubs are.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enugu II wrote:
Otitokoro,

I think you gloss over the debate and make it quite simplistic. The debate, IN FACT, is much more complex.

FIRST, the issue is not that people are against the talent pool from which the SE is drawn from. Far from it. The issue is rather the fact that those born overseas are given preferential treatment that may have little to do with their performance that warrants an SE call up. We have pointed to the Maduka Okoye case, for instance, being groomed from a fourth or third division level to the SE. This has encouraged players who have barely played for a top division club overseas clamoring for an SE call up that is not even considered for a locally based player who is playing at the NPFL level. Do not gloss over that issue or that blatant preferential treatment that was not based on performance by the invitee. He may well become a good player but he will do so after Nigeria invests resources that was not afforded to others.

SECOND, players who go from the NPFL or from the local level to Europe may not be getting a quick a look at the SE level as players who are born overseas and have just recently emerged from the academy level. These things appear to be based on some preconceived notions about players born and bred overseas as opposed to those born in Nigeria. Who already know that this is the case based on interviews of the decision makers. That surely does not appear to be a fair process either.

THIRD, no one has argued that the players based in Nigeria are the best players for SE. That would be crazy given the fact that players are leaving Nigeria to play overseas on a regular basis. However, it must also not be denied that players continue to be produced, regularly and in a conveyor belt-like manner, in Nigeria annually. Thus, to ignore Nigeria totally is a major mistake.

The point above is that these issues should not be ignored. They are central to the debate.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:00 pm 
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Aside from Musa, is there even one single NPFL player in recent years who went on to have a solid career among the top to decent leagues in Europe? It seems majority of our successful "home born and bred" players doing well for both club and country were discovered from privately owned academies, and not from our local leagues.


Last edited by Tobi17 on Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:02 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
After the flash-in-the-pan bunch of NPFL players from the Keshi era that had us all excited for the future for nothing ((Mba, Egwuekwe, Oboabona, Odunlami, Uzoenyi etc) there really haven't been any players that have established themselves anywhere near the levels of Chukwueze, Collins, Ndidi, Ejuke, Nacho and of course Osimhen.

Chikatara was a big hope but seems to have gone totally quiet.
There's Ozonwafor who is just starting out.
Maybe another two or three but nobody else readily comes to mind.

Anyone that can't acknowledge the obvious problem is in denial.
We'd all love for the NPFL to be the backbone of the SE but it just aint happening right now and will take a long time for things to change.

Let's talk true.
Nigerians don't have that kind of patience.
They'll sack one coach after another for failing to deliver, regardless of the coach's best efforts.

Back to square 1 and our 20/20 'vision'.

I don't recall anyone looking at any of those players as ones for the future but rather guys with enough experience to compete for a place in the squad and CHAN team. They played their part at AFCON and our World cup prep.

The only players close to that description were our youth team players + a 17 year old Etebo who Keshi gave a debut to in 2012.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:05 pm 
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EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Troost
Ajayi
Awaziem
Omero
Balogun

Adarabioyo
Torunarigha
Udokhai
Iorfa

Kai



Udokhai barely survived relegation and Torunarigha's team ended up in the bottom half. They might be marginally better than some of our current players but you certainly won't be winning the World Cup with them. They're good players but are they good enough to just pick them without any vested interest on their part? We have to value our team and country enough to demand that players show a selfless commitment to the cause, the history and passion. None of them have done so.

There's a reason some here support shooting,Rangers, Eyimba etc; it's not because they have better players than Barca and Liverpool. The SE fan base was built, not selected. I remember Pastor West crying with his head wrapped in a blood soaked bandage v Sweden, the Joy a Young Kanu brought to millions when we finally beat Brazil in 96. What about the Mikel v Spain at the confederation cup? Knowing the team was down and had little chance he still had to will them forward. Can these guys relate to that? If they can, I welcome them to SE. If not then I'm prepared to miss the WC and roll with our TEAM.

I will trust Rohr's judgement. :thumb:



If Rhor is pursuing these "below average" Euro born players which we all know you hate so much, then why are you his official d11ck washer on CE?? But the again reptiles like you have no principles, scruples or morals so nevermind. Your just on earth to steal Oxygen.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:07 pm 
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Tobi17 wrote:
Aside from Musa, is there even one single NPFL player in recent years who went on to have a solid career among the top to decent leagues in Europe? It seems majority of our successful "home born and bred" players doing well for both club and country were discovered from privately owned academies, and not from our local leagues.



They will never give you an honest Answer. These guys dont even follow the NPFL like i do but they want these substandard players to be imposed on the SEs based on quota.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:47 am 
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Cellular wrote:
Gotti, I understand your sentiments but I follow join in the group that rejoice that we able to be attractive to our children in diaspora.

I hope that they have a positive experience with the National team.

And I also hope the football decision makers don't give up home on the local talent.

Bros, I guess that's why we are all different...
Because I "rejoice" that we are "attractive" to ANY AND ALL Nigerians.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:53 am 
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Tobi17 wrote:
Aside from Musa, is there even one single NPFL player in recent years who went on to have a solid career among the top to decent leagues in Europe? It seems majority of our successful "home born and bred" players doing well for both club and country were discovered from privately owned academies, and not from our local leagues.
bret- hart wrote:
They will never give you an honest Answer. These guys dont even follow the NPFL like i do but they want these substandard players to be imposed on the SEs based on quota.
Otitokoro wrote:
For the avoidance of doubt, Otitokoro's specific comments were..."Instead of being thankful and celebrating the fact that we have such vast quality resources to tap into, we deride them and call them 'foreign rejects'. Seriously??
We are in a very unique position which EVERY other African country would love to be in, yet we question whether we should tap those resources to make our team stronger.

Most countries have only one talent pool to tap into, which is their home grown local talent pool. Nigeria, on the other hand, is in the unique position of being able to tap into two: those born and bred in Nigeria playing overseas (for brevity purposes, I will refer to them as 'BBN') AND those born and bred overseas ('BBO'). Isn't that something to be thankful for and celebrate? This was my initial point.
To be clear, no one is opposed to having BBN players in the SE. Afterall, who would not celebrate the likes of Osimhen, Iheanacho, Ndidi, Chukwueze, Zaidu, Ejuke, etc being an integral part of the squad. I would even suggest that most of them have a higher profile than the BBO players.
Now, the issue of contention is the chant to 'superimpose' NPFL players into the SE. That makes no sense whatsoever! A keen observer would note that most of the BBN players made their way to Europe via Football Academies in Nigeria. Not a single one of the BBN players in this current generation played professional football in Nigeria. Why? Because NPFL players simply don't cut it. The league standards are poor (quality, facilities, viewership, etc). The truth is: you build a squad based on the very best players at your disposal. The sad truth for most of you is that NPFL players do NOT have any of Nigeria's best players, currently, and thus, there is no reasonable justification to have them in the team!

The sophistry whereby the Strawman Argument of the NPFL is substituted for the FACTUAL reality that we are discussing "rejects" of foreign national teams. SMH
Gotti wrote:
But they are "rejects"...
That's just being FACTUAL, not 'arrogance'!

EVERYONE who qualifies for Nigerian citizenship/passport is a NIGERIAN, and deserves all of the rights and privileges of citizenship, including the privilege to be earnestly considered for a place in the national team. That fact should be non-debatable! Nevertheless, for the avoidance of any and all doubt, apart from Iwobi (and perhaps Aina), the FACTUAL reality is that the specific players under discussion and several others similarly placed are "rejects" (as in players who failed to garner call-ups) of English and German (and Dutch) national teams.

Meanwhile, the allusion to "our football league back home" is substantive drivel, as if our choices are restricted to either foreign-based "rejects" or the NPFL (given as our coach has prejudged and pre-indicated little or no interest in the latter). Nigeria has a regular supply-line of players who were born and bred in Nigeria who have become excellent full internationals without the necessity of being born and raised abroad and being "rejected" by foreign national team selectors - Chukwueze, Osimhen, Ndidi, Iheanacho, Collins, Awaziem, Etebo (played in the NPFL btw), etc.

I am glad that we have a big enough tent for everyone (even it seems that we are no longer evaluating home-based players on individual merit, but rather are effectively punishing them for the sins of the league), but please let's dispense with the underlying groveling and frankly subjugative mentality. If we do not "celebrate" (to borrow OTITOKORO's ill-turn of phrase) the callups of players born and raised in Nigeria (or those still based therein), exactly what accomplishment of (or what's so special about) foreign born and raised "rejects" are we being chastised for not celebrating?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:58 am 
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Damunk wrote:
After the flash-in-the-pan bunch of NPFL players from the Keshi era that had us all excited for the future for nothing ((Mba, Egwuekwe, Oboabona, Odunlami, Uzoenyi etc) there really haven't been any players that have established themselves anywhere near the levels of Chukwueze, Collins, Ndidi, Ejuke, Nacho and of course Osimhen.

Chikatara was a big hope but seems to have gone totally quiet.
There's Ozonwafor who is just starting out.
Maybe another two or three but nobody else readily comes to mind.

Anyone that can't acknowledge the obvious problem is in denial.
We'd all love for the NPFL to be the backbone of the SE but it just aint happening right now and will take a long time for things to change.

Let's talk true.
Nigerians don't have that kind of patience.
They'll sack one coach after another for failing to deliver, regardless of the coach's best efforts.

Back to square 1 and our 20/20 'vision'.

I see I missed one of the sophistry bots. See above. SMH

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:06 am 
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Sunset wrote:
Damunk wrote:
After the flash-in-the-pan bunch of NPFL players from the Keshi era that had us all excited for the future for nothing ((Mba, Egwuekwe, Oboabona, Odunlami, Uzoenyi etc) there really haven't been any players that have established themselves anywhere near the levels of Chukwueze, Collins, Ndidi, Ejuke, Nacho and of course Osimhen.

Chikatara was a big hope but seems to have gone totally quiet.
There's Ozonwafor who is just starting out.
Maybe another two or three but nobody else readily comes to mind.

Anyone that can't acknowledge the obvious problem is in denial.
We'd all love for the NPFL to be the backbone of the SE but it just aint happening right now and will take a long time for things to change.

Let's talk true.
Nigerians don't have that kind of patience.
They'll sack one coach after another for failing to deliver, regardless of the coach's best efforts.

Back to square 1 and our 20/20 'vision'.

I don't recall anyone looking at any of those players as ones for the future but rather guys with enough experience to compete for a place in the squad and CHAN team. They played their part at AFCON and our World cup prep.

The only players close to that description were our youth team players + a 17 year old Etebo who Keshi gave a debut to in 2012.

Bros, I do not even bother to get into these NPFL discussions anymore.

Our coach already made it apparent he has no interest in evaluating individual NPFL players in the same manner that players abroad are (hopefully) evaluated as individuals (instead he simply refers to them as a lumped-together group), not least because (according to him) once capped they will have the audacity to try to improve their personal and professional circumstances by emigrating abroad. Accordingly, couldn't even be bothered to engage in a substantively fruitless academic exercise that essentially amounts to pissing against the wind.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:38 am 
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Sunset wrote:
Damunk wrote:
After the flash-in-the-pan bunch of NPFL players from the Keshi era that had us all excited for the future for nothing ((Mba, Egwuekwe, Oboabona, Odunlami, Uzoenyi etc) there really haven't been any players that have established themselves anywhere near the levels of Chukwueze, Collins, Ndidi, Ejuke, Nacho and of course Osimhen.

Chikatara was a big hope but seems to have gone totally quiet.
There's Ozonwafor who is just starting out.
Maybe another two or three but nobody else readily comes to mind.

Anyone that can't acknowledge the obvious problem is in denial.
We'd all love for the NPFL to be the backbone of the SE but it just aint happening right now and will take a long time for things to change.

Let's talk true.
Nigerians don't have that kind of patience.
They'll sack one coach after another for failing to deliver, regardless of the coach's best efforts.

Back to square 1 and our 20/20 'vision'.

I don't recall anyone looking at any of those players as ones for the future but rather guys with enough experience to compete for a place in the squad and CHAN team. They played their part at AFCON and our World cup prep.

The only players close to that description were our youth team players + a 17 year old Etebo who Keshi gave a debut to in 2012.
You don't recall? Really?
At the time they were all new and promising local players. So it sounds very odd that you say they merely had "enough experience" as if they were a stop-gap measure. That sounds as if you are talking with the benefit of hindsight, knowing now that their careers went nowhere special.

This was 2013, 2014 and those players I mentioned were between 23 and 25 at the time. Hardly veterans! The only other 'distant' future players getting the nation excited were the Iheanacho-Isaac Success-Yahaya-Alampasu (and Ndidi) set who were mere kids and had just won (or were about to win) the U17 World Cup.

You're right about Etebo who I forgot about but he was not much older than Ndidi dem. He had already broken through to the CHAN team as you say.
Some other latter-day hopefuls from the NPFL that we are still hoping on are the likes of Obinna Nwobodo (still only 23), Chima Akas (26), Ifeanyi Ifeanyi (25) and another Ifeanyi who's *surname I can't recall at the moment*.
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Ifeanyi Matthew (23).

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