France 1 Italy 3

[ohsee]

Mumu, please show me the contradictions so I can finish you off.

[txj]

OK. So it is not false that you agree with me on some things? I thought so. I too have zero interest in telling anyone what they can or cannot do. I have been in North America long enough to just smile at people who choose to embarrass themselves by doing crazy things. But I can say to a Nigerian who wants to declare himself Japanese because he has immersed himself digitally (your word) in Japanese culture that he is not. It requires much more than that. Much, much more. I am sure most Japanese would agree with me on this. Note that I will not tell him that he cannot do it. Just point out why such a Nigerian is not Japanese.

I disagree with your last sentence (this is a complicated issue). I do not think it is totally up to the gatekeepers and custodians of a particular identity group to determine (brokered, you said) who is part of that identity. Is a third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence, not Italian because Italians refuse to accept him as such? I would think not.

Back to the original issue: those football players are Italian, period. That their heritage is Nigerian does not detract from this. Italians can reject them all they want; they remain Italian. They can be both Italian and Nigerian if their parents had done what Dadi Onyeama had done with his son Dilibe, which is give him the best of English education, and bring him back to Nigeria every holidays. An additional plus on that score would be if they spend the off season in Nigeria and can speak the local languages.

A case can be made that they are Nigerian by blood, but I think that is a morass to avoid.

I believe we have beaten this issue to death, so this is my final word on it.

"A third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence" can claim being Italian but if the Italians do not accept him, he is not Italian in my opinion. Belonging to an identity group is a 2-way transaction. Now, in the realm of reality, we do not see the hypotheticals you are painting happen. Most identity groups are rational actors and do not refuse to accept someone born, raised, and steeped in their identity. And for the few that behave irrationally, most claimants choose to retract their claims than to force themselves to be part of a group that does not want them. The beauty pageant contestant in South Africa who has both South African and Nigerian heritage for example withdrew from the pageant rather than force herself upon a people that said she is not one of them. And in the US, there have been many cases of mixed-race individuals with Black and White heritage who give up any claims to their White heritage because the identity group (or at least a vocal portion of it) does not consider them as belonging to the group.

As for your criteria for the Nigerian-Italians to be able to lay claim to their Nigerian heritage, that once again is simply your opinion and it is an opinion that I strongly disagree with.

Chief, you are missing the point. But it is OK, I did say in the beginning that this is a deeply complex subject. If you think it can be exhausted in two or three posts, that is precisely the problem.

You are right: we have reached an impasse in what we believe. I believe that anyone born and raised in a particular culture, is a person of that culture irrespective of what anyone thinks, including the people of that culture. This seems to me to be an objective fact of cultural existence even though you think it is merely "ohsee's opinion"

You seem to think that once the people of a particular culture reject someone, that person is no longer of that culture and tradition, even if the person knows only that culture and tradition. This seems to me to be a very flawed position. What it would imply is that those whites ( a significant number) in the 18th and 19th centuries who thought that African Americans were not American, and should all be sent back to Africa--which included people as influential as Thomas Jefferson--were correct. It implies that the Canadian authorities are right when they deport adult blacks--who came to Canada as babies with their parents from Jamaica, and discovered too late that they had to take Canadian citizenship to stay--back to a country they do not know, are right. Many white Canadians think this is right, and the law supports them. On the other hand, many black organizations fighting this kind of nonsense take my position that these adults of Jamaican parentage are Canadians pure and simple, and should never be deported to Jamaica, a country totally foreign to them.

As for anyone "laying claim" to a particular culture and tradition, I agreed that anyone can do that if they choose. But are they really of that culture and tradition? Let us just agree to disagree on this complex matter.

[ohsee]

^^^^

Pentagon Parrot, aka ITKxj, a Peewee Guardiola, a man entirely lacking in intellect or intelligence, a man who only looks at "pichers" and can only parrot them in a debate.