France 1 Italy 3

[ohsee]

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

She's both English and Nigerian (and Igbo). If, as you say, what defines people is the culture they grew up in, then this woman who had visited Nigeria and could speak Igbo had obviously been exposed to Nigerian culture when growing up. Her background sounds very similar to mine and I consider myself both Nigerian and British. Nigerians aren't a monolithic group with a single and static set of norms, customs and values.

Chief, I beg to disagree. She did not grow up in Igbo culture; she had some (minor) exposure to it growing up. She was immersed in English culture and traditions all her life (until she immigrated to Canada).

I know a couple of white Canadians who grew up in Nigeria, one in Lagos, the other was born in the city that gave him his middle name, Ibadan. They left Nigeria in their tweens, speak English like Canadians, and think and behave like Canadians--they don't consider themselves Nigerian at all (I don't either) and they are in a better position to do that than this woman. As children in Nigeria, they lived in exclusive areas, attended elite schools full of Oyibo like them, hung around and played with Oyibo children, and had some exposure to Nigerian culture through their servants (I think Ibadan could remember a smattering of Yoruba). As far as I know, they did not follow egungun or mmowu, kill goat for Christmas, chop ngwo-ngwo isi ewu, or support one "tribe" or another for the presidency. Are they Nigerian in your view? Don't forget that I added "and the environment they are most familiar with," not just where they grew up.

Chief, yes, they are Nigerian. Well, let me say, they can identify as Nigerian. And if they did, would you argue with them? They enjoyed a level of privilege the average Nigerian will never experience but they can claim to identify as Nigerian - even if they choose not to. They may not haven't killed a goat for Christmas or chopped ngwo-ngwo isi ewu but like I said there's no singular set of norms, customs and values in which they must adhere to be considered Nigerian. One can say they have a closer affinity to Canada - and perhaps these Italian footballers - have a closer affinity to the countries of their birth but they can absolutely be Nigerian.

But are they? No, I would not argue with anybody to their face, because I am a polite Canadian (I only argue on intanet). I have been here long enough and immersed in Canadian culture to be one.

[ohsee]

Chief, you are right that we are talking about different things. As I said, I do agree with you that "a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage [should be able to] claim the other heritage". That is part of my point about the black Italian footballers. I go further and say that they are that heritage.

I however take issue with your claim that as individuals, we all have a "right" to self-identify as whatever or whomever we want. First, humans do not exist in splendidly free individual isolation with "rights" to do as they please; we are all parts of social groups, constrained by various real markers that specifically identify such groups. The free individual is a myth of modern Western ideology. We thus cannot wake up one morning and suddenly declare ourselves a member of a group without that group acknowledging our existence or our having been embedded in that group for an extended period such that we are almost indistinguishable from other members. The name for such a free claim is "madness."

My reference to the spirit of the age is to a time when men can wake up one morning and declare themselves to be women, and some people think such a declaration is OK and laudable. If this can happen, why can't ohsee one day declare himself to be Hausa? Or better still, Fulani from Gambia? If all identity takes is declaration, then, hey, let me declare myself to be sinequanon the Englishman . To cut long magana (see? I have become Hausa ) short, there is a vast gulf between declaring an identity and being that identity.

txj already captured the essence of my response to the scenarios you painted.

No one typically just wakes up one sunny day and declares him or herself a member of an identity group they do not inherently belong to. Anyone who does that is very likely on the wrong end of the lunacy spectrum. Instead, what we see is that folks become aware of a specific identity group, become fascinated and enticed by it, and begin investing time and effort to identify with that group. And while I definitely do NOT want to make this discussion about transgenders, even they go through a similar trajectory rather than just waking up and declaring themselves members of the opposite gender and in contradiction to their birth identity.

So, going quickly back to the specific topic of THIS discussion, no one wakes up and suddenly declares him or herself Nigerian, or Igbo, or Chinese, or for that matter, Black. We agree that such a one that does this is likely dealing with other bigger issues. However, and as you captured, someone who has been immersed (physically or digitally) and with clear intentionality into a group she wishes to be identified with, can make a reasonable claim to be a member of that group. The members of that group may still not accept her but that she can reasonably make that claim is the point I was making when I stepped into the discussion.

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

[theDunamis]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above are ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

[ohsee]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

[txj]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

[theDunamis]

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

My bad, I thought you were arguing about the factuality of their claim to be Nigerian and/or Italian. If your argument is simply that ohsee and others can have an opinion that they are not what they wish to claim, hell yeah, have at it. Totally your right to have an opinion as an individual with "sovereignty and autonomy".

[txj]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

Chief, you are right that we are talking about different things. As I said, I do agree with you that "a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage [should be able to] claim the other heritage". That is part of my point about the black Italian footballers. I go further and say that they are that heritage.

I however take issue with your claim that as individuals, we all have a "right" to self-identify as whatever or whomever we want. First, humans do not exist in splendidly free individual isolation with "rights" to do as they please; we are all parts of social groups, constrained by various real markers that specifically identify such groups. The free individual is a myth of modern Western ideology. We thus cannot wake up one morning and suddenly declare ourselves a member of a group without that group acknowledging our existence or our having been embedded in that group for an extended period such that we are almost indistinguishable from other members. The name for such a free claim is "madness."

My reference to the spirit of the age is to a time when men can wake up one morning and declare themselves to be women, and some people think such a declaration is OK and laudable. If this can happen, why can't ohsee one day declare himself to be Hausa? Or better still, Fulani from Gambia? If all identity takes is declaration, then, hey, let me declare myself to be sinequanon the Englishman . To cut long magana (see? I have become Hausa ) short, there is a vast gulf between declaring an identity and being that identity.

txj already captured the essence of my response to the scenarios you painted.

No one typically just wakes up one sunny day and declares him or herself a member of an identity group they do not inherently belong to. Anyone who does that is very likely on the wrong end of the lunacy spectrum. Instead, what we see is that folks become aware of a specific identity group, become fascinated and enticed by it, and begin investing time and effort to identify with that group. And while I definitely do NOT want to make this discussion about transgenders, even they go through a similar trajectory rather than just waking up and declaring themselves members of the opposite gender and in contradiction to their birth identity.

So, going quickly back to the specific topic of THIS discussion, no one wakes up and suddenly declares him or herself Nigerian, or Igbo, or Chinese, or for that matter, Black. We agree that such a one that does this is likely dealing with other bigger issues. However, and as you captured, someone who has been immersed (physically or digitally) and with clear intentionality into a group she wishes to be identified with, can make a reasonable claim to be a member of that group. The members of that group may still not accept her but that she can reasonably make that claim is the point I was making when I stepped into the discussion.

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

Mmmhhhh

[ohsee]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

Mumu, what's your point?

[ohsee]

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

My bad, I thought you were arguing about the factuality of their claim to be Nigerian and/or Italian. If your argument is simply that ohsee and others can have an opinion that they are not what they wish to claim, hell yeah, have at it. Totally your right to have an opinion as an individual with "sovereignty and autonomy".

Nice try. There is a difference between having an informed opinion , and, (a) telling people what to do, (b) doing whatever the hell you please. You yourself have already agreed that you cannot just go out and claim Nigerianess--you agreed with me that such is madness--you said it requires having to do this, that and the other. In effect, you have agreed with me, except with regard to details.

[ohsee]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

Chief, you are right that we are talking about different things. As I said, I do agree with you that "a kid who has Nigerian plus another heritage [should be able to] claim the other heritage". That is part of my point about the black Italian footballers. I go further and say that they are that heritage.

I however take issue with your claim that as individuals, we all have a "right" to self-identify as whatever or whomever we want. First, humans do not exist in splendidly free individual isolation with "rights" to do as they please; we are all parts of social groups, constrained by various real markers that specifically identify such groups. The free individual is a myth of modern Western ideology. We thus cannot wake up one morning and suddenly declare ourselves a member of a group without that group acknowledging our existence or our having been embedded in that group for an extended period such that we are almost indistinguishable from other members. The name for such a free claim is "madness."

My reference to the spirit of the age is to a time when men can wake up one morning and declare themselves to be women, and some people think such a declaration is OK and laudable. If this can happen, why can't ohsee one day declare himself to be Hausa? Or better still, Fulani from Gambia? If all identity takes is declaration, then, hey, let me declare myself to be sinequanon the Englishman . To cut long magana (see? I have become Hausa ) short, there is a vast gulf between declaring an identity and being that identity.

txj already captured the essence of my response to the scenarios you painted.

No one typically just wakes up one sunny day and declares him or herself a member of an identity group they do not inherently belong to. Anyone who does that is very likely on the wrong end of the lunacy spectrum. Instead, what we see is that folks become aware of a specific identity group, become fascinated and enticed by it, and begin investing time and effort to identify with that group. And while I definitely do NOT want to make this discussion about transgenders, even they go through a similar trajectory rather than just waking up and declaring themselves members of the opposite gender and in contradiction to their birth identity.

So, going quickly back to the specific topic of THIS discussion, no one wakes up and suddenly declares him or herself Nigerian, or Igbo, or Chinese, or for that matter, Black. We agree that such a one that does this is likely dealing with other bigger issues. However, and as you captured, someone who has been immersed (physically or digitally) and with clear intentionality into a group she wishes to be identified with, can make a reasonable claim to be a member of that group. The members of that group may still not accept her but that she can reasonably make that claim is the point I was making when I stepped into the discussion.

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

Mmmhhhh

Mumu

[txj]

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

My bad, I thought you were arguing about the factuality of their claim to be Nigerian and/or Italian. If your argument is simply that ohsee and others can have an opinion that they are not what they wish to claim, hell yeah, have at it. Totally your right to have an opinion as an individual with "sovereignty and autonomy".

Nice try. There is a difference between having an informed opinion , and, (a) telling people what to do, (b) doing whatever the hell you please. You yourself have already agreed that you cannot just go out and claim Nigerianess--you agreed with me that such is madness--you said it requires having to do this, that and the other. In effect, you have agreed with me, except with regard to details.

Same straw man argument, just sliced slightly differently....

Nobody ever "just go(es) out and claim Nigerianess"

[ohsee]

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

My bad, I thought you were arguing about the factuality of their claim to be Nigerian and/or Italian. If your argument is simply that ohsee and others can have an opinion that they are not what they wish to claim, hell yeah, have at it. Totally your right to have an opinion as an individual with "sovereignty and autonomy".

Nice try. There is a difference between having an informed opinion , and, (a) telling people what to do, (b) doing whatever the hell you please. You yourself have already agreed that you cannot just go out and claim Nigerianess--you agreed with me that such is madness--you said it requires having to do this, that and the other. In effect, you have agreed with me, except with regard to details.

Same straw man argument, just sliced slightly differently....

Nobody ever "just go(es) out and claim Nigerianess"

Mumu. I can't take you seriously because you are not a serious guy. Please go and "talk tactics."

[txj]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

Mumu, what's your point?

Its all about you bro.
I even highlighted in color to help..

[King Futcha]

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

My bad, I thought you were arguing about the factuality of their claim to be Nigerian and/or Italian. If your argument is simply that ohsee and others can have an opinion that they are not what they wish to claim, hell yeah, have at it. Totally your right to have an opinion as an individual with "sovereignty and autonomy".

Nice try. There is a difference between having an informed opinion , and, (a) telling people what to do, (b) doing whatever the hell you please. You yourself have already agreed that you cannot just go out and claim Nigerianess--you agreed with me that such is madness--you said it requires having to do this, that and the other. In effect, you have agreed with me, except with regard to details.

Same straw man argument, just sliced slightly differently....

Nobody ever "just go(es) out and claim Nigerianess"

Mumu. :biggrin: I can't take you seriously because you are not a serious guy. Please go and "talk tactics."

pot meet kettle

moderators should lead by example not derail threads with their nonsense.

France 2 Belgium 0

[theDunamis]

Nice try. There is a difference between having an informed opinion , and, (a) telling people what to do, (b) doing whatever the hell you please. You yourself have already agreed that you cannot just go out and claim Nigerianess--you agreed with me that such is madness--you said it requires having to do this, that and the other. In effect, you have agreed with me, except with regard to details.

That is false. I did NOT agree that one "cannot" do that. I said sane people do not typically do that. I have zero interest in telling someone what they can or cannot do -- particularly if the thing is legal where they reside. Yes, I agree it borders on insanity but they can definitely do it. Hell, some folks probably think it borders on insanity to argue back and forth on an online forum.

And as far as agreeing with you such that the only difference is our takes is on the degree of requirement(s), I believe it is more accurate to say that we both agree that any Joe Shmuck out there can have an opinion about the requirements for belonging to an identity group. However, the factuality of one belonging to an identity group is brokered between the claimant and the gatekeepers / custodians of the identity group. Joe Shmucks be damned.

[ohsee]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

Wow.. never did I expect 2 Nigerians to be on an Italian team. Okoli and Udogue are on the bench but Folurunsho wasn't invited I believe. Na wa o.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

Mumu, what's your point?

Its all about you bro.
I even highlighted in color to help..

But your highlighting in colour shows you are clueless, and don't understand the argument. Show you understand the argument and that you have the intellect to stand up to ohsee. Explain yourself.

Here is where you started off, Mr. Confusion na wa.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.

I told you that this is precisely my point. A passport alone defines no one. But you had to go bumbling off like the buffoon you are.

[ohsee]

pot meet kettle

moderators should lead by example not derail threads with their nonsense.

France 2 Belgium 0

Shattap ya mout Futcha da big fat fundament. I will have to go watch the game on DAZN.

[txj]

My point remains. Yes, you can make a "reasonable claim" to be a member of whatever group you choose. But are you really? Those Italian footballers that are the original object of this discussion can make a "reasonable claim" to be Nigerian because they have Nigerian parents. But unless someone can show me that they spent half of their existence in Nigeria, they are Italians. Products of Italian culture, schooling, national ideology, and football practice. It is not a casual talk on intanet.

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

Nigerians ke? Because dem get Naija name? My bros, my own pikins in Canada are only pretend Nigerians oh. Born and bred in Canada, they are pure Canadian. Those two Italian bobos are likewise pure Italiano. Evin if Italians no gree.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

Mumu, what's your point?

Its all about you bro.
I even highlighted in color to help..

But your highlighting in colour shows you are clueless, and don't understand the argument. Show you understand the argument and that you have the intellect to stand up to ohsee. Explain yourself.

Here is where you started off, Mr. Confusion na wa.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.

I told you that this is precisely my point. A passport alone defines no one. But you had to go bumbling off like the buffoon you are.

Au contraire...It highlights in living color the multiple layers of contradictions in your position, including your straw man arguments.

[ohsee]

Nice try. There is a difference between having an informed opinion , and, (a) telling people what to do, (b) doing whatever the hell you please. You yourself have already agreed that you cannot just go out and claim Nigerianess--you agreed with me that such is madness--you said it requires having to do this, that and the other. In effect, you have agreed with me, except with regard to details.

That is false. I did NOT agree that one "cannot" do that. I said sane people do not typically do that. I have zero interest in telling someone what they can or cannot do -- particularly if the thing is legal where they reside. Yes, I agree it borders on insanity but they can definitely do it. Hell, some folks probably think it borders on insanity to argue back and forth on an online forum.

And as far as agreeing with you such that the only difference is our takes is on the degree of requirement(s), I believe it is more accurate to say that we both agree that any Joe Shmuck out there can have an opinion about the requirements for belonging to an identity group. However, the factuality of one belonging to an identity group is brokered between the claimant and the gatekeepers / custodians of the identity group. Joe Shmucks be damned.

OK. So it is not false that you agree with me on some things? I thought so. I too have zero interest in telling anyone what they can or cannot do. I have been in North America long enough to just smile at people who choose to embarrass themselves by doing crazy things. But I can say to a Nigerian who wants to declare himself Japanese because he has immersed himself digitally (your word) in Japanese culture that he is not. It requires much more than that. Much, much more. I am sure most Japanese would agree with me on this. Note that I will not tell him that he cannot do it. Just point out why such a Nigerian is not Japanese.

I disagree with your last sentence (this is a complicated issue). I do not think it is totally up to the gatekeepers and custodians of a particular identity group to determine (brokered, you said) who is part of that identity. Is a third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence, not Italian because Italians refuse to accept him as such? I would think not.

Back to the original issue: those football players are Italian, period. That their heritage is Nigerian does not detract from this. Italians can reject them all they want; they remain Italian. They can be both Italian and Nigerian if their parents had done what Dadi Onyeama had done with his son Dilibe, which is give him the best of English education, and bring him back to Nigeria every holidays. An additional plus on that score would be if they spend the off season in Nigeria and can speak the local languages.

A case can be made that they are Nigerian by blood, but I think that is a morass to avoid.

[theDunamis]

OK. So it is not false that you agree with me on some things? I thought so. I too have zero interest in telling anyone what they can or cannot do. I have been in North America long enough to just smile at people who choose to embarrass themselves by doing crazy things. But I can say to a Nigerian who wants to declare himself Japanese because he has immersed himself digitally (your word) in Japanese culture that he is not. It requires much more than that. Much, much more. I am sure most Japanese would agree with me on this. Note that I will not tell him that he cannot do it. Just point out why such a Nigerian is not Japanese.

I disagree with your last sentence (this is a complicated issue). I do not think it is totally up to the gatekeepers and custodians of a particular identity group to determine (brokered, you said) who is part of that identity. Is a third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence, not Italian because Italians refuse to accept him as such? I would think not.

Back to the original issue: those football players are Italian, period. That their heritage is Nigerian does not detract from this. Italians can reject them all they want; they remain Italian. They can be both Italian and Nigerian if their parents had done what Dadi Onyeama had done with his son Dilibe, which is give him the best of English education, and bring him back to Nigeria every holidays. An additional plus on that score would be if they spend the off season in Nigeria and can speak the local languages.

A case can be made that they are Nigerian by blood, but I think that is a morass to avoid.

I believe we have beaten this issue to death, so this is my final word on it.

"A third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence" can claim being Italian but if the Italians do not accept him, he is not Italian in my opinion. Belonging to an identity group is a 2-way transaction. Now, in the realm of reality, we do not see the hypotheticals you are painting happen. Most identity groups are rational actors and do not refuse to accept someone born, raised, and steeped in their identity. And for the few that behave irrationally, most claimants choose to retract their claims than to force themselves to be part of a group that does not want them. The beauty pageant contestant in South Africa who has both South African and Nigerian heritage for example withdrew from the pageant rather than force herself upon a people that said she is not one of them. And in the US, there have been many cases of mixed-race individuals with Black and White heritage who give up any claims to their White heritage because the identity group (or at least a vocal portion of it) does not consider them as belonging to the group.

As for your criteria for the Nigerian-Italians to be able to lay claim to their Nigerian heritage, that once again is simply your opinion and it is an opinion that I strongly disagree with.

[ohsee]

OK. So it is not false that you agree with me on some things? I thought so. I too have zero interest in telling anyone what they can or cannot do. I have been in North America long enough to just smile at people who choose to embarrass themselves by doing crazy things. But I can say to a Nigerian who wants to declare himself Japanese because he has immersed himself digitally (your word) in Japanese culture that he is not. It requires much more than that. Much, much more. I am sure most Japanese would agree with me on this. Note that I will not tell him that he cannot do it. Just point out why such a Nigerian is not Japanese.

I disagree with your last sentence (this is a complicated issue). I do not think it is totally up to the gatekeepers and custodians of a particular identity group to determine (brokered, you said) who is part of that identity. Is a third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence, not Italian because Italians refuse to accept him as such? I would think not.

Back to the original issue: those football players are Italian, period. That their heritage is Nigerian does not detract from this. Italians can reject them all they want; they remain Italian. They can be both Italian and Nigerian if their parents had done what Dadi Onyeama had done with his son Dilibe, which is give him the best of English education, and bring him back to Nigeria every holidays. An additional plus on that score would be if they spend the off season in Nigeria and can speak the local languages.

A case can be made that they are Nigerian by blood, but I think that is a morass to avoid.

I believe we have beaten this issue to death, so this is my final word on it.

"A third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence" can claim being Italian but if the Italians do not accept him, he is not Italian in my opinion. Belonging to an identity group is a 2-way transaction. Now, in the realm of reality, we do not see the hypotheticals you are painting happen. Most identity groups are rational actors and do not refuse to accept someone born, raised, and steeped in their identity. And for the few that behave irrationally, most claimants choose to retract their claims than to force themselves to be part of a group that does not want them. The beauty pageant contestant in South Africa who has both South African and Nigerian heritage for example withdrew from the pageant rather than force herself upon a people that said she is not one of them. And in the US, there have been many cases of mixed-race individuals with Black and White heritage who give up any claims to their White heritage because the identity group (or at least a vocal portion of it) does not consider them as belonging to the group.

As for your criteria for the Nigerian-Italians to be able to lay claim to their Nigerian heritage, that once again is simply your opinion and it is an opinion that I strongly disagree with.

Chief, you are missing the point. But it is OK, I did say in the beginning that this is a deeply complex subject. If you think it can be exhausted in two or three posts, that is precisely the problem.

You are right: we have reached an impasse in what we believe. I believe that anyone born and raised in a particular culture, is a person of that culture irrespective of what anyone thinks, including the people of that culture. This seems to me to be an objective fact of cultural existence even though you think it is merely "ohsee's opinion"

You seem to think that once the people of a particular culture reject someone, that person is no longer of that culture and tradition, even if the person knows only that culture and tradition. This seems to me to be a very flawed position. What it would imply is that those whites ( a significant number) in the 18th and 19th centuries who thought that African Americans were not American, and should all be sent back to Africa--which included people as influential as Thomas Jefferson--were correct. It implies that the Canadian authorities are right when they deport adult blacks--who came to Canada as babies with their parents from Jamaica, and discovered too late that they had to take Canadian citizenship to stay--back to a country they do not know, are right. Many white Canadians think this is right, and the law supports them. On the other hand, many black organizations fighting this kind of nonsense take my position that these adults of Jamaican parentage are Canadians pure and simple, and should never be deported to Jamaica, a country totally foreign to them.

As for anyone "laying claim" to a particular culture and tradition, I agreed that anyone can do that if they choose. But are they really of that culture and tradition? Let us just agree to disagree on this complex matter.

[ohsee]

But the above is ohsee's criteria. Not all Nigerians have the same criteria. I definitely do not. For me, I consider those Italian footballers to be Nigerians (in addition to being Italians) if THEY choose to lay claim to their Nigerian identity.

I have nieces and nephews here in the US who have never been to Nigeria, and yet they know the Nigerian culture and further, the Yoruba tradition, its cuisines, and they speak and understand the language, love and wear the attires, etc. Pray tell, why should ohsee get to be the decider of their Nigerianess or lack thereof if they claim and choose to identify as Nigerians? It doesn't compute at all.

But Chief, where have I said that I am the decider? How can I be the decider when I have said anybody is "free" to declare himself or herself whatever he or she wants? What I am actually saying is that there is much more to it than individual choice. Much, much more. If so, the individual ohsee is not the decider. I am just trying to point out that Nigerianness or Italianness is much more than superficial matters that involve individual whimsy. You are not Italian simply because you say you are.

As I said, I can understand why you believe what you believe because you and me both live in a civilization that promotes the idea of individual sovereignty and autonomy. There is a part of me that wants to believe that what you say is true. But I can't. My experiences in life and my study tell me otherwise.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.
Certainly not Okoli in this case...

I might suggest that the passport NEVER defines anybody. What defines people is the culture they grow up in, and the environment they are most familiar with. To suggest that these two are Nigerian is to suggest that Balotelli is Ghanaian, an absurdity if you ask me.

Back in my working days, I met, as part of my job, a black woman born and bred in the UK. She spoke reasonably good Igbo--both of her parents are Igbo, and she had attended weekend classes in England to learn how to speak the language. She had also been to Igboland about three or four times. Was she Igbo, and Nigerian? No. She spoke with a perfect BBC English accent, was married to a white English man, and in my view, was very English in her behavior and attitudes. In my opinion, despite all her affectations of Igbo, she was English, not Nigerian.

Mmmm

Mumu, what's your point?

Its all about you bro.
I even highlighted in color to help..

But your highlighting in colour shows you are clueless, and don't understand the argument. Show you understand the argument and that you have the intellect to stand up to ohsee. Explain yourself.

Here is where you started off, Mr. Confusion na wa.

I might suggest that its not the passport that defines them.

I told you that this is precisely my point. A passport alone defines no one. But you had to go bumbling off like the buffoon you are.

Au contraire...It highlights in living color the multiple layers of contradictions in your position, including your straw man arguments.

Well then, lay out the contradictions so I can kill you. I look forward to it. I love showing everyone how empty-headed you are outside of "talking tactics". I know you won't because you have no clue what you are talking about, and are simply trying to retaliate because I informed you that you are contradicting yourself. If you wish, I can show you your contradictions.

[txj]

OK. So it is not false that you agree with me on some things? I thought so. I too have zero interest in telling anyone what they can or cannot do. I have been in North America long enough to just smile at people who choose to embarrass themselves by doing crazy things. But I can say to a Nigerian who wants to declare himself Japanese because he has immersed himself digitally (your word) in Japanese culture that he is not. It requires much more than that. Much, much more. I am sure most Japanese would agree with me on this. Note that I will not tell him that he cannot do it. Just point out why such a Nigerian is not Japanese.

I disagree with your last sentence (this is a complicated issue). I do not think it is totally up to the gatekeepers and custodians of a particular identity group to determine (brokered, you said) who is part of that identity. Is a third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence, not Italian because Italians refuse to accept him as such? I would think not.

Back to the original issue: those football players are Italian, period. That their heritage is Nigerian does not detract from this. Italians can reject them all they want; they remain Italian. They can be both Italian and Nigerian if their parents had done what Dadi Onyeama had done with his son Dilibe, which is give him the best of English education, and bring him back to Nigeria every holidays. An additional plus on that score would be if they spend the off season in Nigeria and can speak the local languages.

A case can be made that they are Nigerian by blood, but I think that is a morass to avoid.

I believe we have beaten this issue to death, so this is my final word on it.

"A third generation in Italy black man of say, German and African origin, who is born and raised in Italy, of whom Italian culture and traditions are part of his very essence" can claim being Italian but if the Italians do not accept him, he is not Italian in my opinion. Belonging to an identity group is a 2-way transaction. Now, in the realm of reality, we do not see the hypotheticals you are painting happen. Most identity groups are rational actors and do not refuse to accept someone born, raised, and steeped in their identity. And for the few that behave irrationally, most claimants choose to retract their claims than to force themselves to be part of a group that does not want them. The beauty pageant contestant in South Africa who has both South African and Nigerian heritage for example withdrew from the pageant rather than force herself upon a people that said she is not one of them. And in the US, there have been many cases of mixed-race individuals with Black and White heritage who give up any claims to their White heritage because the identity group (or at least a vocal portion of it) does not consider them as belonging to the group.

As for your criteria for the Nigerian-Italians to be able to lay claim to their Nigerian heritage, that once again is simply your opinion and it is an opinion that I strongly disagree with.

Chief, you are missing the point. But it is OK, I did say in the beginning that this is a deeply complex subject. If you think it can be exhausted in two or three posts, that is precisely the problem.

You are right: we have reached an impasse in what we believe. I believe that anyone born and raised in a particular culture, is a person of that culture irrespective of what anyone thinks, including the people of that culture. This seems to me to be an objective fact of cultural existence even though you think it is merely "ohsee's opinion"

You seem to think that once the people of a particular culture reject someone, that person is no longer of that culture and tradition, even if the person knows only that culture and tradition. This seems to me to be a very flawed position. What it would imply is that those whites ( a significant number) in the 18th and 19th centuries who thought that African Americans were not American, and should all be sent back to Africa--which included people as influential as Thomas Jefferson--were correct. It implies that the Canadian authorities are right when they deport adult blacks--who came to Canada as babies with their parents from Jamaica, and discovered too late that they had to take Canadian citizenship to stay--back to a country they do not know, are right. Many white Canadians think this is right, and the law supports them. On the other hand, many black organizations fighting this kind of nonsense take my position that these adults of Jamaican parentage are Canadians pure and simple, and should never be deported to Jamaica, a country totally foreign to them.

As for anyone "laying claim" to a particular culture and tradition, I agreed that anyone can do that if they choose. But are they really of that culture and tradition? Let us just agree to disagree on this complex matter.