Of Vogts, Odegbanmi, Fash & (bad)Bell(e)...

[MI5]

Yes ohh na so i see am... The IAG that went ballistics after Angola went to the WC and Naija stayed. The same IAG that finally woke up and realised CCC was an imposter afterall... Now he is complaining... The same IAG that has bashed LC's to the point of no return amazing...

Deep down IAG would like CCC to come back...

I must say it is equaly wrong and misguided for anyone to use his record in Scotland only as a basis to judge his suitability and capability for the SE post.

How can it be wrong or misguided when that was the only period in which he worked outside the famed German organisational structure?

And on top, he failed woefully with Kuwait, which makes it 2 countries he took their football fortunes backwards.

What a load of rubbish. Stop this false propaganda.

He was in Kuwait for 6 months. Do you know how many games he handle while he was Coach? I hope you have not concluded he was a failure without the info on is tenure in Kuwait?

I don't like to be challenged however I had to respond to this one. Even though it took forever to find the information, I eventually did and here we go with BV's record at Kuwait.

Let me state upfront that I could not locate any website that laid out his record at Kuwait neither could I find the exact dates of his tenure there, however based on available information, he was appointed in August 2001 and lasted six months, which meant he was in charge until February of 2002. Based available records on Fifa, here is the breakdown of his record:

Wins: 3
Draws: 6
Loses: 4

Now Waffi, do you believe this is an enviable record to behold?

IAG is confused as to who he wants to coach the SE. I have a feeling that if the NFA had hired Van Gaal he would have still found a reason to complain. This was the same person who said that Egu was not good enough for the job 2 weeks ago.

[MI5]

IAG,

Pls stop all this talk about Egu and Siasia. When they both had their chance to seek glory and prove us wrong they could do the job, what did they do? They sold the match to CIV for peanuts..

Can you explain why Egu bungled that match against CIV? Can you explain why CCC chief CARETAKER and Egu messed things before they realised Angola was heading to Germany? I remember how livid you were during those times and now you are changing your tune about this and that... C'mon... You can do better than this...

Open question to you? Why did Egu messed things up in Egypt after doing so well in the early stages?

I must say it is equaly wrong and misguided for anyone to use his record in Scotland only as a basis to judge his suitability and capability for the SE post.

How can it be wrong or misguided when that was the only period in which he worked outside the famed German organisational structure?

And on top, he failed woefully with Kuwait, which makes it 2 countries he took their football fortunes backwards.

What a load of rubbish. Stop this false propaganda.

He was in Kuwait for 6 months. Do you know how many games he handle while he was Coach? I hope you have not concluded he was a failure without the info on is tenure in Kuwait?

I don't like to be challenged however I had to respond to this one. Even though it took forever to find the information, I eventually did and here we go with BV's record at Kuwait.

Let me state upfront that I could not locate any website that laid out his record at Kuwait neither could I find the exact dates of his tenure there, however based on available information, he was appointed in August 2001 and lasted six months, which meant he was in charge until February of 2002. Based available records on Fifa, here is the breakdown of his record:

Wins: 3
Draws: 6
Loses: 4

Now Waffi, do you believe this is an enviable record to behold?

The BBC gives me different stats. Note. Vogts left Kuwait in Jan 2002. However, it is largely irrelevant because he was there for only 6 months. Besides, I raised so many other issues, which you have not addessed. What is 6 months in a career spanning 15 to 20 years? Stop cluching at straws, no matter what you say, those jokers - CCC and Egu are not in his league.

The point of the matter is since 1996, what can BV claim as an achievement in his erstwhile career on a national level? Even more, if we are to look at his complete career as a national coach, it is filled with more failures than success.

[Ayo Akinfe]

In many ways, Eguavoen's bungling in Egypt 06 surpasses Chukwu's fumbling in Tunisia 04. I do not know which is worse, the starting line-up against Ivory Coast or the one against Morocco.

[kolinzo]

I dey siddon look!

[Cristao II]

reading cic's post has just made me scared for naija .. abeg i no wan make it become like ghana ooooo!!

People like you should not talk because you are all discredited. You supported CCC while he was destroying our dreams, yet you have the gall to mention Ghana. You will not know a good coach even if he slaps you in the face and your track record here cannot be denied. How can you of all people even talk, do not let me get vexed and post your CCC yarnings here.

You are scared for Naija now because of Vogts but you were not scared when CCC was in charge.

You are having a laff. We have the best Coach ever employed in terms of pedigree and record, yet you who supported CCC that got a job for which he had no capabilities or pedigree is now scared for Naija because of Vogts. Does it make sense?

i will keep this post until what has been pointed out happens .. i supported CCC as long as he got the results .. immediately the Kano debacle happened, even before the match i dropped him as soon as he invited Yak to play ..

For some wierd reason i am confident that a CCC team will beat a Vogts team .. i just dont know why ... could it be in modern times CCC has a better record?

[cic old boy]

Vogts may not be the best coach in the world, but if you are going to assess the man, the least you can do is put everything out there- the ugly, the bad, and yes the good.
That is my point...

You guys are really funny. There is hardly anything good about Vogts as a coach. That’s why he can’t get a job coaching kids in Germany. They know him better than you do.

The funniest thing is the impression that his stint at Scotland was just an aberration. Every casual observer that has followed his career knew it wasn’t. It was a culmination of the bumgling of an uninspiring clown who rode his luck for too long. At Germany he had everything, world class players, first rate organisation, money no object, a country with a history of excellence, customary German resilience, etc. Yet the goon continued to flounder. If not for the fact that the DFB hate sacking one of their own, Vogts wouldn’t have lasted beyond Euro 92. The chickens came home to roost in France 98.

[cic old boy]

reading cic's post has just made me scared for naija .. abeg i no wan make it become like ghana ooooo!!

If we become like Ghana it would be an achievement for Vogts. It is more likely we will become like Burkina Faso or something.

[cic old boy]

Thanks CIC. U have succinctly described Berti, the coach. He who has eyes, let them read. The 8 years he stayed as German coach was the longest 8 years of German football. Everyone expected he would do the right thing to resign afetr the 2nd year. The Cobbler did not.

Nigeria just took a terrible step in appointing this clueless cobbler turned coach.

Balo, the thing tire me o! Shey you've lived in Germany? That explains why you know Vogts is a bad joke. All my friends in Germany are tearing their hair out over this appointment.

[cic old boy]

His WC record was not the best I know and you will not see me defend him on that score. But he was better at the Euros and his track record there is excellent. We need a Caoch to build a team, Vogts has proven he can do that. Even two years after he took over, the team that finished runner up in 1992 showed some changes to the WC 1990 team.

Team that won won WC 1990

GER: Illgner - Augenthaler, Berthold (75 Reuter), Kohler, Buchwald - Brehme, Hässler, Matthäus (c), Littbarski - Klinsmann, Völler

Team that was Runners up in 1992.

Germany: Illgner, Helmer, Reuter, Kohler, Buchwald, Brehme, Hässler, Sammer (Doll), Effenberg (Thom), Riedle, Klinsmann.

Man mi, stop defending this guy. He is a lousy coach. The 92 squad was hardly different from the 90 squad. If my memory serves me right, the major difference came from the ”Ossis” like Sammer and Doll coming in from the East.

You and I know that in footie records do not tell the entire story. You should know that Germany is not England. They reasonably expect to win every tournament they compete in, especially the Euros. In 92 they were world champs and were totally disgraced by Holland, and outclassed by rank outsiders Denmark. Wherever Bertie went, he inherited a decent team and made it worse.

As for Bayer Levekuson, my man Toppi like Vogts did not win a thing, in fact it was Vogts team that Toppi failed to win a thing with and he got fired because he could have got them relegated. The fact is Berit's style was different from Daum (who but for his cocaine problems, would have been a great Coach) and the players did not like or welcomed him. Berti was old school and did not have the charisma of the fun loving cocaine snorting Daum. Despite his problems at Leverkuson, he got them to the CL. Which was not bad given the issues he had there.

Why wouldn’t Toppi struggle in his last season at Leverkusen? Bayern bought up all their best players – Lucio, Ballack and Ze Roberto. Please, please, please don’t mention Toppi in the same breath as Vogts. You could be lynched in Leverkusen for that sort of talk.

And it was not Berti’s team. The team was built by Daum. Did you read my post? They played great under Daum, under Voller and under Toppi. When did they fumble? When pitbull Berti took over. Twice under Daum they were runners-up to Bayern. Twice under Toppi they were runners-up. They stumbled to fourth under Berti and he was sacked under a cloud of fans threatening to riot.

As for Littbarski, all he has is a big mouth. He had it as a player but he never lived to his word. Let me ask you, what has he done as Caoch? He was a failure when given the opportunity, so how can you take the word of such a radical with no success as coach over Berti. To make matters worse, they are and have always been sworn enemies.

This discussion is about Berti’s coaching not Littbarski’s. If you want to know about how good or poor a coach is, you look at the whole picture. This should include references from people that worked with him. If Berti could get glowing references from fellow coaches or players he wouldn’t be struggling to find work in his homeland. You can’t run away from these facts. Practically everyone in the game in Germany knows Berti is a twisted joke.

I have my reservations about Vogts, I will not say he is the best we could have got, I will not tell you he will guarantee success, I know there are better coaches out there, but at least give the man his due, you cannot be Germany's coach and have this record

quote:

Berti Vogts - 65.7%, 102 games (67W, 12L), 1990 - 1998

and be as bad as you are making him out to be.

Nna, abeg don’t give me this stuff about “records”. You criticised the same ish when CCC’s apologists were doing the same. If you are a goat in charge of Nigeria or Germany, you are bound to have enough games against minnows to run up what looks on paper like a decent “record”. The true record that counts is what you do at championships and at the crunch games.

Berti Vogts is a severe embarrassment. I am ashamed, but not surprised, that we could go to Germany and offer the Eagles job to this laughing stock of a coach – where coaches of the calibre of Ottmar Hitzfeld are out there in Germany and out of work. This is what you get when people like Sanni Mumu who know nothing about the world game are running our football.

[cchinukw]

Thanks CIC. U have succinctly described Berti, the coach. He who has eyes, let them read. The 8 years he stayed as German coach was the longest 8 years of German football. Everyone expected he would do the right thing to resign afetr the 2nd year. The Cobbler did not.

Nigeria just took a terrible step in appointing this clueless cobbler turned coach.

Balo, the thing tire me o! Shey you've lived in Germany? That explains why you know Vogts is a bad joke. All my friends in Germany are tearing their hair out over this appointment.

CICOB I was willing to give those advocating for an FC the benefit of the doubt and they come up with this. I am seriousky scouring for another African team to support. I no get time for nonesense.

[Waffiman]

Deep down IAG would like CCC to come back...

I must say it is equaly wrong and misguided for anyone to use his record in Scotland only as a basis to judge his suitability and capability for the SE post.

How can it be wrong or misguided when that was the only period in which he worked outside the famed German organisational structure?

And on top, he failed woefully with Kuwait, which makes it 2 countries he took their football fortunes backwards.

What a load of rubbish. Stop this false propaganda.

He was in Kuwait for 6 months. Do you know how many games he handle while he was Coach? I hope you have not concluded he was a failure without the info on is tenure in Kuwait?

I don't like to be challenged however I had to respond to this one. Even though it took forever to find the information, I eventually did and here we go with BV's record at Kuwait.

Let me state upfront that I could not locate any website that laid out his record at Kuwait neither could I find the exact dates of his tenure there, however based on available information, he was appointed in August 2001 and lasted six months, which meant he was in charge until February of 2002. Based available records on Fifa, here is the breakdown of his record:

Wins: 3
Draws: 6
Loses: 4

Now Waffi, do you believe this is an enviable record to behold?

IAG is confused as to who he wants to coach the SE. I have a feeling that if the NFA had hired Van Gaal he would have still found a reason to complain. This was the same person who said that Egu was not good enough for the job 2 weeks ago.

[Waffiman]

His WC record was not the best I know and you will not see me defend him on that score. But he was better at the Euros and his track record there is excellent. We need a Caoch to build a team, Vogts has proven he can do that. Even two years after he took over, the team that finished runner up in 1992 showed some changes to the WC 1990 team.

Team that won won WC 1990

GER: Illgner - Augenthaler, Berthold (75 Reuter), Kohler, Buchwald - Brehme, Hässler, Matthäus (c), Littbarski - Klinsmann, Völler

Team that was Runners up in 1992.

Germany: Illgner, Helmer, Reuter, Kohler, Buchwald, Brehme, Hässler, Sammer (Doll), Effenberg (Thom), Riedle, Klinsmann.

Man mi, stop defending this guy. He is a lousy coach. The 92 squad was hardly different from the 90 squad. If my memory serves me right, the major difference came from the ”Ossis” like Sammer and Doll coming in from the East.

You and I know that in footie records do not tell the entire story. You should know that Germany is not England. They reasonably expect to win every tournament they compete in, especially the Euros. In 92 they were world champs and were totally disgraced by Holland, and outclassed by rank outsiders Denmark. Wherever Bertie went, he inherited a decent team and made it worse.

As for Bayer Levekuson, my man Toppi like Vogts did not win a thing, in fact it was Vogts team that Toppi failed to win a thing with and he got fired because he could have got them relegated. The fact is Berit's style was different from Daum (who but for his cocaine problems, would have been a great Coach) and the players did not like or welcomed him. Berti was old school and did not have the charisma of the fun loving cocaine snorting Daum. Despite his problems at Leverkuson, he got them to the CL. Which was not bad given the issues he had there.

Why wouldn’t Toppi struggle in his last season at Leverkusen? Bayern bought up all their best players – Lucio, Ballack and Ze Roberto. Please, please, please don’t mention Toppi in the same breath as Vogts. You could be lynched in Leverkusen for that sort of talk.

And it was not Berti’s team. The team was built by Daum. Did you read my post? They played great under Daum, under Voller and under Toppi. When did they fumble? When pitbull Berti took over. Twice under Daum they were runners-up to Bayern. Twice under Toppi they were runners-up. They stumbled to fourth under Berti and he was sacked under a cloud of fans threatening to riot.

As for Littbarski, all he has is a big mouth. He had it as a player but he never lived to his word. Let me ask you, what has he done as Caoch? He was a failure when given the opportunity, so how can you take the word of such a radical with no success as coach over Berti. To make matters worse, they are and have always been sworn enemies.

This discussion is about Berti’s coaching not Littbarski’s. If you want to know about how good or poor a coach is, you look at the whole picture. This should include references from people that worked with him. If Berti could get glowing references from fellow coaches or players he wouldn’t be struggling to find work in his homeland. You can’t run away from these facts. Practically everyone in the game in Germany knows Berti is a twisted joke.

I have my reservations about Vogts, I will not say he is the best we could have got, I will not tell you he will guarantee success, I know there are better coaches out there, but at least give the man his due, you cannot be Germany's coach and have this record

quote:

Berti Vogts - 65.7%, 102 games (67W, 12L), 1990 - 1998

and be as bad as you are making him out to be.

Nna, abeg don’t give me this stuff about “records”. You criticised the same ish when CCC’s apologists were doing the same. If you are a goat in charge of Nigeria or Germany, you are bound to have enough games against minnows to run up what looks on paper like a decent “record”. The true record that counts is what you do at championships and at the crunch games.

Berti Vogts is a severe embarrassment. I am ashamed, but not surprised, that we could go to Germany and offer the Eagles job to this laughing stock of a coach – where coaches of the calibre of Ottmar Hitzfeld are out there in Germany and out of work. This is what you get when people like Sanni Mumu who know nothing about the world game are running our football.

Hitzfeld does not want any job at present.

As per CCC's record and my criticisms, they hardly compare. Vogts record is being compared to the greats of German football. Also, Vogts record has a major championship, a runner up spot in a major championship and qualified for all major championships. CCC has no such thing, CCC has a 3rd place in a mojor championship and failed to get us qualified for the WC. CCC's record is not worth mentioning, it is a record of mediocrity and failure. Vogts is the opposite.

[etoo_fils]

CCC is a good coach that out of all the IC's coached the Nigerian team to play their own way not euro football or 3-5-2 or whatever crap formation Amodu or Onigbinde ran with. He coached the team to play attacking football and they were attractive in the ANC even as they went out against Tunisia.

Now of course the one thing CCC lacked was managerial skills. He could not control the lackadaisacal attitiude of his no 1 player JJ Okocha which is why Nigeria did not qualify for the World Cup. But CCC just like Keshi and Siasa is one of Nigeria's best coaches like it or not.

About Eguavoen I reserve judgement on him because he did not get time to coach the team but he did achieve results and whether or not we lost to Ivory Coast in the ANC semis, fact remains that he got a relatively make-shift team that far in a short space of time.

I expect nothing less than ANC gold from Berti Vogts and WC qualification with NO matches lost. If CCC was fired because Nigeria did not qualify for WC 2006 in losing just ONE match then Vogts better not lose ANY. NONE. His teams had better score 3 goals on average since 1-0 is not good enough for the pro-oyibo crew.

No excuses for average performance or bronze from wayo, waffiman and the rest of the I love oyibo clique. He better put that German Euro '96 title and German coaching experience to use and guarantee ANC gold in 2008 and a spotless WC qualifying campaign.



I reserve judgement on this obviously mediocre coach until 2008.

[Waffiman]

CCC is a good coach that out of all the IC's coached the Nigerian team to play their own way not euro football or 3-5-2 or whatever crap formation Amodu or Onigbinde ran with. He coached the team to play attacking football and they were attractive in the ANC even as they went out against Tunisia.

Now of course the one thing CCC lacked was managerial skills. He could not control the lackadaisacal attitiude of his no 1 player JJ Okocha which is why Nigeria did not qualify for the World Cup. But CCC just like Keshi and Siasa is one of Nigeria's best coaches like it or not.

About Eguavoen I reserve judgement on him because he did not get time to coach the team but he did achieve results and whether or not we lost to Ivory Coast in the ANC semis, fact remains that he got a relatively make-shift team that far in a short space of time.

I expect nothing less than ANC gold from Berti Vogts and WC qualification with NO matches lost. If CCC was fired because Nigeria did not qualify for WC 2006 in losing just ONE match then Vogts better not lose ANY. NONE. His teams had better score 3 goals on average since 1-0 is not good enough for the pro-oyibo crew.

No excuses for average performance or bronze from wayo, waffiman and the rest of the I love oyibo clique. He better put that German Euro '96 title and German coaching experience to use and guarantee ANC gold in 2008 and a spotless WC qualifying campaign.


I reserve judgement on this obviously mediocre coach until 2008.

Man, shut up if you cannot debate without making silly stupid remarks about race. So the fact that I am defending the record of Vogts now means I am an Oyinbo lover, what an intelligent analysis. You can take your racism and shove it where the sun don't shine. Take a leaf from cic and others who argue their positions passionately without the need to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

Besides, if you have read my posts here and know me here, you should know my position on such issues. Your post is ignorant and it is not worth another second of my time.

[cic old boy]

Hitzfeld does not want any job at present.

As per CCC's record and my criticisms, they hardly compare. Vogts record is being compared to the greats of German football. Also, Vogts record has a major championship, a runner up spot in a major championship and qualified for all major championships. CCC has no such thing, CCC has a 3rd place in a mojor championship and failed to get us qualified for the WC. CCC's record is not worth mentioning, it is a record of mediocrity and failure. Vogts is the opposite.

Hitzfeld doesn’t want a club job. He could be open to a national team position which is more or less a part-time job.

You miss the point about records. You posted Vogts’ win/loss ratio. It is misleading to do that. Chukwu’s apologists used to do it too. A coach of Germany is bound to have a win/loss ratio that looks good on paper. They would play more than their fair share of the Luxembourgs, San Marinos, Faroe Islands, etc.

I can’t see how you can criticise Chukwu and praise Vogts. Berti Vogts is a template for mediocrity. I doubt if Chukwu could do worse than Vogts if the former was coach of Germany. German successes were despite the Vogts not because of him. This explains why no one wants to give him a job in Germany. Of course Chukwu is an utter failure for not qualifying for the WC. Vogts will also fail to get us to the WC if he is not sacked before then.

[airwolex]

So if Egu took over and did what any FC would have been expected of, where is the problem then? Why not give the man his props and dues and asked to continue with what he is doing?

Eguavoen was punching way above his weight. That job was at least three classes above his category.

Whenever he came up against a team with equal talent, he was certain to lose. That Ivorian game just summed it all up.

KPOM!!!!!!

[cic old boy]

CCC is a good coach that out of all the IC's coached the Nigerian team to play their own way not euro football or 3-5-2 or whatever crap formation Amodu or Onigbinde ran with. He coached the team to play attacking football and they were attractive in the ANC even as they went out against Tunisia.

You can't have watched the Eagles at the ANC or that many games under Chukwu. They were an eyesore.

[Waffiman]

Hitzfeld does not want any job at present.

As per CCC's record and my criticisms, they hardly compare. Vogts record is being compared to the greats of German football. Also, Vogts record has a major championship, a runner up spot in a major championship and qualified for all major championships. CCC has no such thing, CCC has a 3rd place in a mojor championship and failed to get us qualified for the WC. CCC's record is not worth mentioning, it is a record of mediocrity and failure. Vogts is the opposite.

Hitzfeld doesn’t want a club job. He could be open to a national team position which is more or less a part-time job.

You miss the point about records. You posted Vogts’ win/loss ratio. It is misleading to do that. Chukwu’s apologists used to do it too. A coach of Germany is bound to have a win/loss ratio that looks good on paper. They would play more than their fair share of the Luxembourgs, San Marinos, Faroe Islands, etc.

I can’t see how you can criticise Chukwu and praise Vogts. Berti Vogts is a template for mediocrity. I doubt if Chukwu could do worse than Vogts if the former was coach of Germany. German successes were despite the Vogts not because of him. This explains why no one wants to give him a job in Germany. Of course Chukwu is an utter failure for not qualifying for the WC. Vogts will also fail to get us to the WC if he is not sacked before then.

Hitzfeld nor go take the Naija job if available. For me, he is top dog.

My bad on my post about Vogts in response to you. I should have posted it in comparism to other German coaches. Here is waht I wanted to post.

[Name - winning percentage, total games(Wins, Losses), tenure]
Helmut Schoen - 62.5%, 139 games (87W, 22L), 1964 - 1978
Jupp Derwall - 67.2%, 67 games (45W, 11L), 1978-1984
Franz Beckenbauer - 54.5%, 66 games (36W, 17L), 1984 - 1990
Berti Vogts - 65.7%, 102 games (67W, 12L), 1990 - 1998

Looking at that, surely even you cannot continue to massacre the man without giving his due. You say Vogts is a template for mediocrity but his record especially for Germany suggest otherwise. This is where you and I cannot agree.

As for your comparism of Vogts to CCC, I will let CCC settle that arguement with this quote from him:

viewtopic.php?t=84393&highlight=chukwu

Former Eagles coach Christian Chukwu also praised the NFA for picking Vogts.

"For the first time, we are going for a truly world-class coach. He played the game at the highest level. He also coached teams at the highest level. His experience will take Nigeria to the next level," said Chukwu, who was sacked in July after the Eagles were forced to a 1-1 draw in a World Cup qualifying game in Kano.

Need I say more?

Wetin Vogts do you sef? My bro, Vogts is no Daum, Hitzfeld and Toppi but his record for Germany and his overall pedigree as a Coach means he is an improvement on what we have had in the past. I just hope he delivers or else.

[Waffiman]

So if Egu took over and did what any FC would have been expected of, where is the problem then? Why not give the man his props and dues and asked to continue with what he is doing?

Eguavoen was punching way above his weight. That job was at least three classes above his category.

Whenever he came up against a team with equal talent, he was certain to lose. That Ivorian game just summed it all up.

KPOM!!!!!!

You agree with Ayo. Wonders neva cease.

[airwolex]

So if Egu took over and did what any FC would have been expected of, where is the problem then? Why not give the man his props and dues and asked to continue with what he is doing?

Eguavoen was punching way above his weight. That job was at least three classes above his category.

Whenever he came up against a team with equal talent, he was certain to lose. That Ivorian game just summed it all up.

KPOM!!!!!!

You agree with Ayo. Wonders neva cease.

I kpomed it before I realise say na Ayo dey yarn!

[Waffiman]

So if Egu took over and did what any FC would have been expected of, where is the problem then? Why not give the man his props and dues and asked to continue with what he is doing?

Eguavoen was punching way above his weight. That job was at least three classes above his category.

Whenever he came up against a team with equal talent, he was certain to lose. That Ivorian game just summed it all up.

KPOM!!!!!!

You agree with Ayo. Wonders neva cease.

I kpomed it before I realise say na Ayo dey yarn!

You wan change am.

[cic old boy]

Hitzfeld nor go take the Naija job if available. For me, he is top dog.

He is available and no one asked him.

My bad on my post about Vogts in response to you. I should have posted it in comparism to other German coaches. Here is waht I wanted to post.

[Name - winning percentage, total games(Wins, Losses), tenure]
Helmut Schoen - 62.5%, 139 games (87W, 22L), 1964 - 1978
Jupp Derwall - 67.2%, 67 games (45W, 11L), 1978-1984
Franz Beckenbauer - 54.5%, 66 games (36W, 17L), 1984 - 1990
Berti Vogts - 65.7%, 102 games (67W, 12L), 1990 - 1998

Looking at that, surely even you cannot continue to massacre the man without giving his due. You say Vogts is a template for mediocrity but his record especially for Germany suggest otherwise. This is where you and I cannot agree.

You again prove my point that win/loss ratios are misleading. Vogts on paper looks better than Helmut Schoen and Beckenbauer! No one in their right mind would suggest he comes close to those legends as a coach. The Germans are still paying for the mess Vogts caused when he was in charge.

As for your comparism of Vogts to CCC, I will let CCC settle that arguement with this quote from him:

viewtopic.php?t=84393&highlight=chukwu

Former Eagles coach Christian Chukwu also praised the NFA for picking Vogts.

"For the first time, we are going for a truly world-class coach. He played the game at the highest level. He also coached teams at the highest level. His experience will take Nigeria to the next level," said Chukwu, who was sacked in July after the Eagles were forced to a 1-1 draw in a World Cup qualifying game in Kano.

Need I say more?

You need to say more o! Like why you call Chukwu clueless and then accept he is clued up here. I’d say the quote above shows how little he knows about world football. It’s either that or he is just positioning himself to be Vogts’ assistant by kissing azz. Indeed it is b/c Vogts coached at the highest levels that no one at the highest levels will give him a job anymore. They all know how hopeless he was.

Wetin Vogts do you sef? My bro, Vogts is no Daum, Hitzfeld and Toppi but his record for Germany and his overall pedigree as a Coach means he is an improvement on what we have had in the past. I just hope he delivers or else.

My guy, I work with evidence. The evidence shows that no one in Germany will touch this clown. The evidence shows that every team he touched deteriorated under him and improved when he left. Just hoping he will deliver won’t make it happen or wish away his glaring inadequacies. I work with expectation not hope. I expect Vogts to fail like the evidence from his career suggests he will.

[Ayo Akinfe]

Chei, CIC na real pessimist. Anyway, it is nice to have people like this around, just to make Vogts sit up.

I think we have to find a way to communicate CICs observations to the NFA. In my opinion, it is important that Vogts is aware of the fact that there are views such as CICs out there.